Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

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Siegfried VII
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#571 Post by Siegfried VII »

FrankHunter wrote: We will deal first with the minor threats.
Dwarves, while having the most powerful artillery in warhammer, will be totally owned by the caledor armour, rendering ineffective two of their (usually) four cannons/grudgers.
Dwarven players will have only one cannon with flaming attacks and will pack most likely two grudgre throwers with no flaming attacks and extra accurate with runes. Your assumption is wrong.
FrankHunter wrote: Brets are a double threath: trebuchets and heroic killing blow. While the first are still a scattering weapon, and the eagles can deal with them pretty good (cause they will probably have no protection), the latter can be a problem. BTW, the real power of the guy is the psycological impact he has, forcing you to move the dragon the way HE wants, or to make mistakes in movement. Remember, it' just a poor human, with maybe a 2+ armour and a 5++ ward. The prince could kill him before he attacks, if boosted with loec.
Since I am also a bretonnian player I can tell you that the good build of the HKB Lord on Pegasus has ASF, 2+ rerollable armour save plus the blessing, so he won't die that easily and will get at least a turn of attacks on the Dragon with reroll on the to hit. So he has about 50% to kill outright your dragon.
FrankHunter wrote: If your opponent is not too experiences, and moves forward the ArchLector, he's a good target for the dragon, cause the Speculum works on the Prince, but the Dragon is still crippling him. And the waraltar is Unbreakable too, which means a couple of safe turns in CC.
If he is a good Empire Player his Archlector will have the Sword of Fate. He will choose the Dragon as his target and you won't get close at it without risking gatting your Dragon torn apart.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#572 Post by FrankHunter »

in my experience, I've always seen dwarfs with one cannon and one grudge flaming. Apart the fact that you don't want to see that HPA smashing your army only because you've rolled bad for the bounce, or 1 for the wounds, the flaming rune is also a good way to avoid putting the same combination of runes on two warmachines.
Same goes for the ArchLector, I've never seen one with sword of fate (but I have to say it's a pretty nasty build), maybe because he gets too expensive, anyway the top Empire player of Italy is in my team, and he's not playing it, so I'm only talkin about things I've seen, and the local metagame.
Of course you could face a Lector with sword of fate, as well dwarfs with no flaming attacks, that's one of the fun things in the game, you know what you can expect, but you never know what you will find.
My point is the same ad before, the Dragon Prince list will face some really bad matchups in tournaments, so it must find a way to minimize this losses. One way, I think, it's the Caledor Armour. Another could be this:
Mage lv. 2 (High), going for Shield
Mage lv. 2 (Light) with Seerstaff, picking Pha's and Amintok.
This way with the sorcery banner, you could set up a magic phase like this: 2DP Shield; 2DP the other High spell; 2DP Pha's; 3 DP Amintok.
Then you should end up with your dragon with a 5++ save, or with Pha's protection, or having disabled one WM with Amintok (cause war machines auto fail S checks). Any one of this should increase the chance of your Dragon to survive a turn of heavy shooting.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#573 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Siegfried VII - ETC restrictions didn't really hamper Dark Elves as much as they should have. They are still a top tier army, which to me indicates that the comp is not effective enough. I agree that this comp might be a little too hard on Dark Elves, if that is the case we will ease it up.

As for Stone Throwers - I'm perfectly aware that they're more than capable of inflicting damage. However, math-hammer wise they really aren't close to cannons as far as damage is concerned. It's not like I'm disregarding them completely, but they're more similar to the threat of Withering + small arms fire than cannonballs. Also, given the nature of the lists taking Stone Throwers (Orcs and Goblins, Dwarfs etc - plenty of units which my Dragon is happy to engage) I don't think they're a bad matchup.

I appreciate you reminding me of this though, it's easy to get a little too focused on the major things like very good matchups and terrible ones.

@Francis - I don't have any High Elf civil wars lined up. The other High Elf player in the league who goes by the nickname odinki, also features a Star Dragon list. I know another member or two who might play a more traditional High Elf list though - I'll try and seek them out to get a game :)

@FrankHunter - welcome to Ulthuan :) I appreciate your input seeing as you have experience with the relevant setting here. As for the serious threats - I completely agree with you. All I can do in these cases is pray for terrain, first turn, poor rolls to wound/multiply wounds etc. Though they are bad, I don't consider them impossible as far as matchups go.

Apart from the obvious cannonball threats, of course there are plenty of things in this game that present a non-trivial problem for my list to solve. These include tooled-up Greater Daemons, flying Bretonnia HKB Lords, Shadow-heavy lists etc. I don't believe that I can optimize my list any more against these threats however without giving up too much someplace else. As it stands now, I just want to try it out and see how it works against competitive lists of other fractions under the given comp. There's only so much theory-hammer one can perform - at some point the analysis has reached its end and more input through playtesting is needed for further discussion. I believe I've reached that point now and I'm very excited to see this list facing off against the varied opponents my division has.

Hopefully I'll be able to master this approach before too long, paint up the army and attend a couple of tournaments in 2012 :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#574 Post by rusty »

Curu Olannon wrote:@ The other High Elf player in the league who goes by the nickname odinki, also features a Star Dragon list.
*Takes names and sharpens the Bloodthirsters axe*

I'll bet you'll lose the Dragon at range at least once during the league. But that might be acceptable odds.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#575 Post by odinki »

I would be surpised if I didnt rusty. Empire (5 WM said to be included), Chaos Dwarves (dont know about their shooting, but since they are dwarves I bet they can do it quite well) and Dwarves, all in the same division. Oh well, I would believe your Thirster/keeper to suffer the same fate...
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#576 Post by rusty »

Quite probably. Star dragons I believe are rougly equal to Greater Daemons in survivability vs shooting. 5+ ward vs 7 wounds + rider (only one or the other is hit from stone throwers, right?). Daemons might have an edge with Mounstrous infantry to act as goalkeeper from cannonballs, and Spirit swallower to regain wounds in combat. Greater Daemon vs Star Dragon will be an interesting matchup, regardless. Best of luck with those cannons :wink:
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#577 Post by FrankHunter »

In ETC all the Bloodthristers are playing Flamning Sword, so it should be a piece of cake. However, the GUO with multiple wounds blade is a serious threat. That's where your magic needs to kick in. A ward save, or even better a Pha's protection on the dragon can turn things in your favour. Every kind of list we take, be it a Dragon, a shooty, or a cavalry one, needs the magic support we excell in, to perform at best.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#578 Post by Dark Reaper »

odinki wrote:I would be surpised if I didnt rusty. Empire (5 WM said to be included), Chaos Dwarves (dont know about their shooting, but since they are dwarves I bet they can do it quite well) and Dwarves, all in the same division. Oh well, I would believe your Thirster/keeper to suffer the same fate...
I predict that the Chaos Dwarfs will have a k'daai destroyer as one of their rare choices, leaving them enough points to take only one hellcannon or a dreadquake mortar. Even though the k'daai destroyer is immensely strong you shouldn't really have to much trouble with it as it has flaming attacks. ;) The dreadquake mortar is basically a stone thrower with s5 and is best used against infantry. The machine you should be the most scared of is probably the hellshrieker which can fire at s8 against a single target, doing d6 wounds, but it will still have to roll a hit on the scatter dice to actually hit you.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#579 Post by Siegfried VII »

FrankHunter wrote:In ETC all the Bloodthristers are playing Flamning Sword, so it should be a piece of cake.
Sorry mate but no. No Daemon Player in his right mind would give flamming attacks to his Bloodthirtser. With all the Dragonhelms floating around it is suicide. Most Daemon players in ETC have their Bloodthirsters with killing blow (and few with the strength 10 gift).

The gift that grants flaming attacks it is given to Heralds of Khorne.
FrankHunter wrote:A ward save, or even better a Pha's protection on the dragon can turn things in your favour.
Here we agree. I would add that Speed of Light can also be of great help when facing Greater Daemons.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#580 Post by Prince of Spires »

rusty wrote:(only one or the other is hit from stone throwers, right?).
Unfortunatly not. Templates pinball around on the monster + rider until everyone is hit. Only 1 takes the high strength hit though.

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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#581 Post by SpellArcher »

FrankHunter wrote:However, the GUO with multiple wounds blade is a serious threat.
Best avoided I'd have thought?
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#582 Post by Purplesounds »

@Dark Reaper; I know that you know you made a couple of mistakes. I'd like to help out a little if I can. First thing I saw was Your deployment. As a general rule of thumb if your opponent has more maneuverability than you then you'll need to deploy more bunker style where everything can help support everything else. This will make decisions harder for your opponent. The harder the decision making the more likely they'll mess up. The coldones on the far flank with your BSB is a no no. Elves have good leadership but a BSB is still needed. You've already said that you messed up here so moving on. When your harpies fled from the white lions I thought this was a bad move even before he made the redirect into the hydra. Harpies are expendable. I think harpies are the best unit in the dark elf book. They were positioned perfectly. He kills then and over runs out of position or the more likely reform. Next turn you run your hydra away from them but turn to face them and keep within 16.5 inches or so. He could have dragged them around for a while or when they swift reformed to ignore him he could march back 12 inches and threaten their rear. The last mistake I noticed and may curu didn't communicate it well or I misunderstood. The last DE turn you charge with the corsairs, his archers hold, You charge with the knights, his archers flee stopping close to the board edge. If they were within 17 inches of the shades you should have charged with them and forced his archers off the board automatically. Redirecting into the dragon was also not a good move. If the dragon already had a couple wounds on him than sure. (stupid dragon making 7 or 8 4+'s) Just fail charge on the archers and then flee turn 6 if he charges most of your stuff. (except for his eagle bsb you could have held against that) He would have had his bsb, dragon and white lions left, roughly 1300 points left and you would have had the hydra, knights, bsb corsair and shades left, roughly 1272. A Draw.
I'm not trying to lecture or point out all your mistakes. Just trying to help a fellow druchii out. Maybe give these perfume wearing mammas boys a harder time next time. ;)

As a side note the DE comp is a little hard. That means nothing coming from me though. HAHA! :twisted:

@Curu; I completely agree. I think you've gone as far as you can list building and discussions for now. Only playtesting from a varying pool of armies can help you tweak your list now. I'm in favor of the archers over spears personally.
The Dragon looks Epic! Can't wait to see it all painted up and done. I agree with a previous poster though that the elf would look better a little further back more on the shoulder blades. I'll look forward to more progress on the painting side and army shots.

Still loving this thread.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#583 Post by dabber »

Purplesounds, DE Knights cannot flee as a charge reaction. Stupid means immune to psych means no fleeing. Redirecting into the dragon was the best choice for them, as they were going to fight it anyway, and might as well get the lance bonus.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#584 Post by Purplesounds »

Oh goodness you are so right!!! I failed my stupidity test today. #-o
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#585 Post by Curu Olannon »

Losing the Dragon once at range isn't list-breaking, besides given my division I don't think the odds are that bad. Odinki is in a more vulnerable position, which is why you should consider not taking a Greater Daemon at all rusty: with the limitations on characters/core units I do believe Daemons can play better without lords here.

As for Flaming Sword Bloodthirsters, I haven't seen one yet. There are so many ways to get a ward against Fire attacks that it's just too big of a risk.

Stone Throwers hitting the Dragon - indeed Rod is right that both parts of the model are hit, however one at S3 without multiple wounds means it's essentially the same as not hitting.

Great Unclean One - well, he's not a fan of neither my Archers nor the Lion horde. With M4 it should be easy to do with him as I please between Eagles and superior firepower. The Dragon does not want to engage him of course unless he's seriously weakened and even then there are probably other matchups that are better.

It looks like I'll start painting the Dragon in a couple of days :) Will keep you posted on the progress!
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#586 Post by Curu Olannon »

With regards to the Star Dragon, I really need a name. Brewmaster asked earlier whether it was a male or a female. I haven't really decided (found out?) yet! Anyways, I'd love some input from you all if you have any suggestions :)

I started base-coating today. Hopefully I'll get some pictures up in a couple of days!
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#587 Post by Ptolemy »

I'm totally lame and stole Paarthunax from Skyrim for my Star Dragon. Badass.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#588 Post by Siegfried VII »

Salpheer for female or Haerallon for male? Just from the top of my head, so don't shoot the pianist. :roll:
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#589 Post by Curu Olannon »

Not a big fan of stealing names out of context. E.g. the fact that Tyrion Lannister has the same name as Tyrion (High Elf) bothers me, even though it might not have been stolen.

Good suggestions Siegfried! I like the general feel of the names though they're not spot on. Keep them coming ;)

Some work in progress shots of the Dragon:

Image

Image

The camera and lighting conditions are very sub-optimal but since it's just WiP the main purpose is to give you an impression. I intend to keep the general feel like this - will work some more on both the golden armour and blending the scales (they're currently 3 layers each). Additionally, the horns, talons etc will be highlighted up to Bleached Bone and I will try and keep the black parts rather black.
Last edited by Curu Olannon on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#590 Post by Siegfried VII »

Hhhmm... he/she seems a bit "evil". I love the combination of black and red, but I'm not sure it fits a high elf dragon...
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#591 Post by Curu Olannon »

Have you seen the rest of my army? Check page 1 of this thread for a couple of shots.

The idea is more to have it based on something fiery and volcanic rather than evil. I'm tired of bright Elves, hence the red/black colour scheme. The army has been mistaken for Dark Elves on several occasions already.
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#592 Post by Siegfried VII »

Oh, I see... then I would advice the use of more orange on the scales, so you can retain the fiery theme. :)
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#593 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

It does look awfully black, a dark brown would have gone really well, some orange might be nice though.
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#594 Post by Curu Olannon »

Yeah I'll definitely have them more orange. I lack 2 layers of highlighting (pure Blazing Orange and Blazing Orange with a bit of yellow) and some more blending so the scales should look considerably less red by the time I'm done ;)

As for the black feeling - after I've painted every tooth, talon, horn etc with bleached bone I believe it'll tone it all down. Also, the wings will not be black (probably a brown leather colour of some sorts) and they will likely take a lot of the focus away from the body as they're rather big. Lastly, the resin base is rather big and almost exclusively made up of a tree which will be painted in a bleak grey-brown colour.

I wonder what I should do about the mouth though. The tongue in particular could stand out and to be honest I have absolutely no idea what colours would suit. Thoughts?
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#595 Post by rusty »

Can I suggest making a quick colouring in photoshop, to get an idea of how it will look?

You're using an original colour scheme here on an original mini. It might look really cool, it might look crap. Nice to know before you spend 100+ painting :wink:
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#596 Post by Siegfried VII »

Curu Olannon wrote: I wonder what I should do about the mouth though. The tongue in particular could stand out and to be honest I have absolutely no idea what colours would suit. Thoughts?
I would go for green myself. It fits nicely with orange/red.
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#597 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

yea green would contrast nicely, maybe purple too.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#598 Post by Anvalous »

Painting!!! I love the game of Warhammer... I love the hobby fifty times more. Now, I have a blog with awesome battle reports AND paint. High Five!!! =D> =D> =D>

Ok... Now to the thoughts on your wonderful toy... I'm going to offer up lots of ideas which I would consider for this radical centerpiece. That said, they are still only ideas and opinions, so take them however you'd like!

For the tongue, I'd go with a purplish-pink. It'll keep a nice warmth with your scales and should look natural. Ask yourself, what color is this dragon's meat? Think of a giant dragon flank steak and come up a notch or two.

I like your brown idea for the wings. That surface is huge and will draw a lot of attention to a stunningly contrasted dragon beneath. Go for it!

Your red is solid. If anything, I'd consider adding one more top highlight to it. Perhaps take a fiery orange and add a > touch < of bleached bone (or similar) to brighten it and hit the top edges. It will add some serious pop, contrast with the dark scales, and tie in to your plan for tooth, claw, and horn. You can shade the scales - some of the larger ones, anyways - with well-watered-down dark green. The complimentary color will also add some striking visual interest for when you get really close.

The black skin is going to be a chore. I really like the feel here, and it works wonderfully from a complete composition angle, but I've painted a lot of black and even they need depth. The tricky part with black is giving it contrast without making it grey/blue/purple/green etc. I'd suggest the following:
- medium thin highlight of shadow/space wolves grey. Keep it a bit watered down, but you'll want to line the ridges, ripples, and bumps. This will give you a good base for...
- thin toplight with ghost grey. This is your fierce contrast color here. When I think of black beasties, particularly scaled ones, I imagine some serious gloss. This sharp highlight will help you achieve that look.
- Finally, take an ink/wash (GW's are awesome), I'd suggest purple, mix in a tiny bit of black paint and a tiny bit of your red paint (I'd say a final mix of 1:1:5:10 of black:red:wash:water) and glaze the entire thing, using your brush to pull excess off of your toplight. This should give you a decent blend on the non-blended highlights used as well as give your black some color interest. You can also use this glaze for the brown wings. It'd be a nice way to tie the whole package together, too.

Again, just my 2 cents. I know you'll do a fantastic job and I can't wait to see it!

:D :D :D
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#599 Post by Curu Olannon »

@rusty, Siegfried VII, Tiralya - I've never used photoshop or similar before to get a feeling of what something might look like. I will consider doing it for the tongue though, as it's a part I'm fairly uncertain about. Both green and purple are being considered at the moment! Do you have any pictures of Dragons/Monsters that have been painted this way? What base colour would you use and how would you apply highlights?

@Anvalous - Thanks for a lot of ideas. A few of your suggestions use techniques I'm not familiar with, e.g. inking the whole Dragon. I'm a little reluctant to do something like this on such a model for a first-time tryout. As for the black parts, I would love to see some pictures of how others have implemented this before me. I will keep your advice in mind when I start the highlighting, also I believe I'll ask a friend for advice (I know a guy who's a really good painter) and perhaps have him show me a technique or two!

I started on the bones today. Indeed, making them brighter by applying layers from scorched brown to bleached bone greatly takes away the extremely black feel. I'm confident now that this, coupled with brown leathery wings, will be sufficient to keep the Dragon from looking super-evil. I also modelled the Prince's saddle with greenstuff and basecoated the tree (resin base) in scorched brown. I want the tree to be rather bleak by applying dead-ish grey/brown colours to contrast with the black and striking red. Input here would be appreciated :)

On an army list notice - I updated the first post to reflect the all-archer core changes and minor tweaks (e.g. Olannon's Flame-ward is now Ironcurse Icon). I'll get around to updating the army rationale as well! If you have any questions or wonder about any of my choices, feel free to ask :)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

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Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
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Siegfried VII
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#600 Post by Siegfried VII »

I would use Snot Green as the base and I would highlight with Scorpion Green and Scorpion Green + Skull White.
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