Chariot Prince Evolution

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SpellArcher
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#61 Post by SpellArcher »

Last Sunday another one-day event, report here:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=39111

I took:

Prince, Chariot, GW, DA, Charmed Shield, Reaver Bow, 4+ Ward, Loec.
Archmage, Lvl3, Silver Wand.
BSB, Armour of Caledor, GW, Guardian Phoenix.

10 Archers, LA, Std, Musician.
24 Spears, Champion, Musician.
15 LSG, Shields, FC, Arcane Protection.

14 Swordmasters, FC, Balance, Skeinsliver.
5 DP's, FC, Sorcery, Potion of Strength, Warrior Bane.
5 Helms, Std, Musician.
5 Reavers, Bows not Spears, Std, Musician.

RBT
2 Eagles

No major changes then. As planned, I dropped Razor standard from the DP's and moved Sorcery to them. This let me put Balance on the Swordmasters. I was toying with the idea of squeezing in an extra DP but that would have meant dropping Skeinsliver. I decided to keep it (on the Swordmasters) as my experiences going second to that point had been bad. Felt I needed to include more magical attacks against Ethereals though, so Warrior Bane came in on the DP champ. This nerfed his lance but he would still be S6 on the charge if he drank his potion.

More analysis to come...
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#62 Post by SpellArcher »

On Cavalry

Overall, I was quite happy with how this list performed. Won two out of three games, including one against Daemons. My Dragon Princes performed well, killing some Dryads and an eagle in the first game, holding up a Gor Horde in game two and seeing off the very dangerous Flamers in game three.

My other cavalry though seemed a bit superfluous at times. I lost the Reavers in the first game and the Helms fled in disarray. Game two the Reavers did little. The Helms killed off some dogs but then got caught and killed by a chariot. Game three the Reavers destroyed some Furies and then charged the Fiends but got killed doing it. The Helms got shot up by Flamers and were then sacrificed to save the DP's. Not very glorious.

So my thoughts after the event were that they were not pulling their weight and so one or both units had to go. Surely I could make better use of the points and get in some of the more juicy and hard-fighting troops other guys used in their lists? I pondered drafting in a unit of PG. This would certainly give me a nice anvil to work around. But it wouldn't help with actually putting kills on things and that was the main problem as I saw it. So I turned to magic...

A Support Caster (revisited)

As I wrote a few months ago, I'm very happy with my Archmage and how he works and don't really want to change him. However, I considered once again the idea of buying a support mage to really crank up the magic phase and do things in it I currently couldn't. While I can see the utility of a Lvl1 with Crystal (say) this isn't really my style. I was after a Lvl2 with Seerstaff, who could pick spells that would really let me do stuff. In particular I'd been very impressed with the 10-spell Daemon phase I'd just faced. I wanted some of this!

Fluff-wise I love the Lore of Life. So a Seermage with Flesh to Stone and Regrowth was appealing. FtS is an 8, so a very reliable 3-die cast for a lvl 2. Similarly, Regrowth is a 10, 4-dice would almost always get it off. It seems unspectacular but the prospect of buffing a unit of Swordmasters up from 3 models to 6 and then adding +2 Toughness was quite attractive. But once again, it usually wouldn't help with putting more kills on.

The Dark Side of this as it were, was a Shadowseer with Withering and Pit. I kind of shy away from this because Shadow is almost a default choice for High Elves. Hard to deny the utility though. Pit is excellent for tough, low I targets that my army struggles to hurt. Withering is an utter peach of a spell. A debuff that makes spells, shooting and combat attacks on the unit all murderous? A no-brainer really. The fact that it's RIP adds that extra touch of magic defence too, an excellent side benefit.

The main downside is the casting cost. 13+ if you're within 18", so that's an 11, fairly reliable on four dice I guess. But further away and we're looking at 16+, five dice for sure. Could well be worth it but my Archmage would certainly feel the pinch. I would also have to plan for protecting a second mage, which I have struggled with in the past. Food for thought...
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Elithmar
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#63 Post by Elithmar »

Perhaps you need more eagles (more eagles is never a bad thing!) to redirect. Just 1 more might help. If you needed to sacrifice your helms, surely an eagle would be better? And you'll sometimes need that extra warmachine hunter to protect the CP.

You'll still have more points left from just taking another eagle. More infantry might benefit you. You only have 14 swords, and you want more killing power, so... ;)

Go on, you'll probably have enough points for about ten (taking out the helms and reavers, adding another eagle, I reckon with some quick estimating you should have about the cost of ten swords in points). That's an extra 15 attacks in a 5x2 formation. And if the enemy targets them, he's not targeting the CP.

The Shadow Mage isn't a bad choice, but you have fairly few models. Even if you can cast Withering, what if everyone else is dead and can't take advantage of it? :D ;)

Just something to think about. Well done on your place too, 6th is excellent! You're really getting that CP to work for you, aren't you? ;)
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#64 Post by SpellArcher »

You know Elithmar, the great thing about the Chariot Prince is I don't have to write a section justifying him this time. He is working just fine! To be quite honest I'm generally happy if the enemy target him, he is quite resilient.

Eagles

My general philosophy is to take the least of any particular thing that I can get by on.After all, it's unlikely I can cover all the bases I want to. I agree with Furion that it should be possible to get by on one eagle. Right now though I am not playing at that level and am finding two to be necessary. A third might be handy but would on average have been killed by the Flamers, whereas a couple of Helms would have been left to do the redirecting. General point being that the Helms cover other bases for me that a third eagle wouldn't.

Interesting idea about the Swordmasters...
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#65 Post by Selvhan »

Hey SA, I have been reading your progress and it always nice to see your improvement.
But I would like to know why you take the Skeinsliver ? You have a lot of different unit so your opponent will most likely get a +1 for being the 1st deployed.
Wouldn't it be better for you to use those point somewhere else ? Like a war banner , or the amulet of light ?
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#66 Post by SpellArcher »

Selvhan that is spooky because Skeinsliver is an issue I'm going to cover very shortly!
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#67 Post by Selvhan »

I actually have another question, does the warrior bane really worth it ? Correct me if I am wrong but if your DPs champion use that sword, he doesn't use his lance during the charge right ? He always use his magic weapon.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#68 Post by SpellArcher »

You are quite right.

The reason I put Warrior Bane in there was purely to give me a close combat answer (in addition to Reaver Bow and High Magic) to Ethereals, though it actually helped me against Dryads. At the time I considered it to be the best compromise.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#69 Post by SpellArcher »

'Lots of Units'

This is an observation someone made to me on the day: "You've got lots of units" (which is not the same as lots of elves of course!). Now compared to an Orc and Goblin army this isn't true! But many armies do have fewer units than mine and to me this is a strength of the list. Clearly the more 'drops' you have, the easier it is to out-deploy the enemy and this happened to some extent on the day.

So coming back to the Skeinsliver, I have included it to date because games where I've gone second have not tended to go well for me. Of course as I tend to have more drops than the enemy, the odds are no better than 50-50 but it helps those odds. The game against Daemons though is giving me ideas. I went second against a fastish top-tier army and won, maybe Skeinsliver is not so key.

Now Seredain used the Skeinsliver under 7th edition but he doesn't anymore. He explained to me that he is usually able to out-deploy his enemy and that, combined with the speed of much of his list outweighed the possibility of going second. You can react to an enemy's initial moves but it's very hard to re-deploy much of your army if you've messed up where you've put them.

The more I thought about the poor showing of my lighter cavalry the more I began to see this was partly because they were amongst my early drops. Having lots meant I could usually deploy my key fighting units (Prince, Swordmasters, Dragon Princes) after the enemies they were there to kill and hence get the right match-ups where it mattered. The price for this was the light stuff having a hard time. But at the end of the day, it's the success or otherwise of my fighting troops that usually decides the game.

Back to Magic

So it's quite clear that taking a back-up Shadowseer for example would give me more, powerful options in the magic phase. But looking back on these three games for example, would it have made a huge difference? I'm not sure about the Wood Elf game, it might have let me handle the Treekin better. But High Magic spells are also certainly effective against Wood Elves. I had thought that Shadow would help me counter the Beasts. But if I hadn't Cascaded my Archmage on turn 1 Flames would have been a massive threat and Shield (and the ability to counter Enfeebling and Miasma) could have turned combats. More decisively, in my last game Shield was absolutely key in the centre and Flames was a nagging problem for my opponent. Rarely on the day did I want for casting options.

I've also just started to get some glimmers of utility out of Courage of Aenarion, which is encouraging. At the end of the day I've got five spells with good general applications against almost all opponents, it's a very efficient phase. There's also a certain compactness about running just one caster and just three characters which makes life easier in some ways.

List Change Solutions

Lastly, I remember another point made by Seredain, which was that it is very tempting to react to reverses (or even successes!) by attempting to fix things via list changes. This was how I felt after the games but after more reflection, I think the changes I need to make are limited. It's more important to see how you can use what you've got differently and to develop your tactics. Too many changes and you start to lose the 'feel' for the army you've developed and other downsides appear that you may not have considered. Happily, I believe I've already thought this through above!

So I'm inclined to stick with my Archmage for the magic phase, at least for now. I'd like to put in another Dragon Prince and to do this, will drop the Skeinsliver. This will free up the slot to put Amulet of Light on the Swordmasters (watch out Treekin!) and obviate the need for the Warrior Bane. I might have to drop my Swordmaster musician to find points.

I haven't discarded the idea of dropping one of the cavalry units. I could possibly lose the Helms and give the Reavers spears and expand them to six strong to try to bridge the gap but I'm not sure.

More food for thought!

:)
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#70 Post by Selvhan »

It depends on how you think and what you use. If you know your strategy is very good, you do not have to wait until the enemy is deployed because you force him to react to what you put on the table.
If you want to react to what the enemy put on the table, yes lots of units will help. BUT, I have tried to play with many unit, and that gives more chance to your opponent to score victory points.

Example : Destroying a 5 x 4 phoenix guard unit with a noble/bsb can be quite an achievement.

About your magic phase, do you use vault's of unmaking ? It's not doing any damage but it can surely save you some critical situation. The VC player often use a vampire with a lot of attack and their vampire can reach 500 pts very easily ( 100 pts in gift and 100 pts in magic item ). So when you engage his Lord in CC removing his magic item can be crucial. No more item that remove bonus to Str from weapon. ( Nightshroud adds an additional +1 to the wearers armour save and causes any model in base contact to lose the strength bonus from any weapon magical or otherwise they are wielding. It also causes them to gain the always strikes last special rule ) Since the corpse cart can give ASF to everyone within 6", this item is awesome. You can change the balance of the game with this spell , but I am sure you knew that :)
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#71 Post by SpellArcher »

How Many Units

Selvhan, this is an ongoing issue isn't it? Some guys like to run only three or four powerful units, others like Swordmaster for example run MSU. Most players seem to like a balance, where some big, powerful units are supported by some smaller units.

I tend towards MSU because my playstyle favours flexibility over durability. It is a higher risk strategy because as you say, killing ten models can finish a small unit but leave a bigger unit alive, which makes a big difference at game's end. However, I do believe having lots of 'drops' should let a player outdeploy his enemy more often than not. There is always somewhere your opponent does not want your powerful units and if these all go down after his whole army there is little he can do to stop this.

High Magic Spells

I love Vaul's, I think it is a great spell but to date I've not had much opportunity to use it. Until 6 games ago I used Seerstaff. In the first of those six games I used Vaul's to destroy a Sorcerer Lord's Ward save, letting me kill him in combat. Next two games against Dark Elves I should have taken it and didn't, this cost me. I had it in the Wood Elf game but didn't get much chance to use it. Beastman game I Cascaded my Archmage! In the Daemons game I could have selected it but felt that Flames was more important there.

In general, having four rolled spells (Lvl3 + Silver Wand) on High Magic is excellent. I've looked at other Arcane Items but the step up from 3 to 4 selection dice is a big one. That's going from 72% to a 90% chance of getting the spell you're after and when you're facing the Pendant and really want Vaul's for example that's huge.

That is perhaps the clearest example of the advantages of great spell selection. But having access to the whole of the Lore now is just really good. All of the spells are useful in different situations. Even Courage, commonly regarded as the weakest. High Magic is frequently felt to lack combat buffs, though Shield is excellent here. I feel that Courage can be the crucial second buff that overloads your opponent's dispelling and this was borne out in the Daemons game. In particular for my list, which lacks Stubborn or easily Steadfast troops, it's beginning to look very useful indeed.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#72 Post by Selvhan »

I have to agree with you. I play with the same 5-6 guy since 1 year and they tend to use huge unit. I often play against VC, Empire, Lizardman, Breton, Skaven, WoC, and Dwarves. That might be why I prefer to have few solid unit than having more but smaller.

Back to your Prince, have you ever consider using the Bow of Seafarer with the GP and maybe the talisman of loec and the charmed shield ? Reroll to hit on a Bolt thrower shot with reroll to wounds as it goes through your enemy's rank !
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#73 Post by SpellArcher »

Yeah, the balance of small to big units is partly a metagame thing I think.

Seafarer Bow

To be quite honest Selvhan I think Seafarer Bow would actually be more effective than Reaver in my list. Part of the reason I use the latter is that it is useful against small targets as well as big ones. But now that I'm down to a single RBT monsters become more of an issue. Tough, slow ones such as Hydras I can at least counter with my combat troops. A flyer like a Bloodthirster or Dragon though is a serious issue as Reaver struggles toput wounds on it. I took Seafarer to a tournament under 7th edition and found it effective against these.

The reason I've kept Reaver is firstly the 4+ Ward. As you say I'd have to cut to Guardian Phoenix and that's risky with a dodgy armour save. But also that Talisman has to come off my BSB probably replaced by Dawnstone. I remain suspicious of this while I have no scroll to counter sniping.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#74 Post by Elithmar »

The thing I don't like about the Seafarer Bow (or even bolt thrower single shots) is that if you miss that one shot, that's it. But with Reaver or volley, you have a few shots and one will probably hit, even if it's not as good as the one shot that might hit.

I never count on getting the first turn, because I know I'll roll badly. So I never take the Skeinsliver.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#75 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

The ballistic skill of Prince is 6, so even if he's moved he's hitting on 2's...
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#76 Post by Elithmar »

What if you're just one of those people who can't get the dice to work for them? ;)

Nah, point taken. It's a good one.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#77 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I'm pretty sure you're not praying to the dice gods hard enough, try getting some new dice ^_^
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#78 Post by SpellArcher »

I find the Prince is usually hitting on 3's. There's often a range, cover or skirmishing penalty in there too. So I can see Elithmar's point. But if your dice are bad you're playing the right army! Not only do we get ASF re-rolls but...

High Magic Helps Out

Although the Lore does have potentially devaststing spells more often it's the little ones you'll be getting off. Curse of Arrow Attraction can make a difference here. A 1-in-3 chance of missing becomes a 1-in-9 chance. Which is really good because against a Bloodthirster you may not be getting another go.

If you can put a couple of wounds on it you can then have a go with a Loec Prince or your elites. The trick is catching it. First round it will likely be eating a champion. But if you can get Shield or Courage off in your next phase you have a decent chance of pinning him there until the cavalry arrives. Which is why I'd try to select these spells against a big flyer. Just don't let him get a supporting charge in!
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#79 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey SpellArcher,

Just a thought - Considering you're happy with your Level 3 cost effective archmage, but you're thinking of adding a second mage for a bit of extra magic punch/defense, have you considered the option of running two level two's? The savings of dropping down to two heroes can help balance out the cost of adding in something like the banner of sorcery.

Maybe something like this:

Mage, Level 2, Anullian Crystal, High Magic (Curu's budget magic defense Mage)
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff or silver wand, some lore that offers plenty of low cost spells as well

Lets you mix and match two lores, gives you two casters to mitigate miscast/sniping nastiness and two opportunities to channel. It also has the potential to have a 6 spell selection (3 and 3 if you take the silver wand)

Net cost increase here would be 85 points or 105 points respectively. Might be worth one of those units of cav, if you're not getting the results you want from them.

Some level/magic item swapping could make it even cheaper too, potentially. +3 to dispel with redundancy built in letting you try more comfortably with 1 dice, stealing a dice and 2x attempts to channel is a pretty decent magic defense.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#80 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi SpellArcher!

Good to see Chariot Prince to ride again. Very interesting observations too! :) let me add some comments then:

On Cavalry

It is indeed frustrating to see that only DP can perform well. Sure, they have a lot of advantages over other two units, especially when it comes to close combat. I would lie to add, however, that cavalry is good because it has a greater charge range and as such can keep some regiments of the enemy in check. It is worthy to remember that sometimes it is more beneficial to pose a threat rather than commit a unit. It keeps the enemy wondering who the cavalry is going to charge while you maintain that pressure. That is the reason I give Reavers spears. With S4 on the charge they are more likely to inflict damage and lone chariots or fiends are more reluctant in their movement.

On Supporting Caster

Funny but this is similar idea I was considering for my army too. But you have means to use it since you sport Banner of Sorcery, a must in my opinion if you are going for 2+ wizards in the army. I am also impressed by how good Daemons can be with just level 2 only due to the fact he can have all the spells and choose them accordingly. So it is not a matter of level but number of spells to your disposal. Of course casting and dispelling looks different with lower level mage but it can be very dangerous too.

If you are going to include a supportive mage what other lores, apart from Life and Shadow are you willing to consider?

On Lots of Units

It is easy to position your light troops first and say that you can either re-deploy them or they are less relevant to success of the army. I have found out it might not be the case and the order in which you deploy them might and should change depending on the enemy. For example, playing against Bretonnia you probably would like to have the reavers as close to trebuchet as possible and then out of sight of any of his units too. You will have first turn so you can move 12+18" with vanguard. To use it fully I would wait until the enemy puts all his regiments and only then pick the best path for reavers to go through.

Basically the main advantage of more units (especially when they are not that big) is that you can have extra knowledge of your enemy deployment but you make it less of an impact if you always deploy in the same order.

On List Changes

I could not agree more :) And often this is the type of advice you get. It is not to say that changes to the list should be at all cost avoided. But then, as you say, too much and you quite literally start from scratch.

My suggestion would be to quickly review your battles and list the problems you have encountered. Then we can discuss possible ways of tackling them in the frame of the list.

If you do make some changes, however, such as getting support mage or getting rid of one cavalry unit, then it is ok too :)

On High Magic

I find it very useful indeed. Vauls is just great, helped me a lot in a few games (e.g. switching off magic armor of enemy BSB and killing him afterward, destroying Daemonic Icons etc.) but the main thing is that every spell, although not spectacular as some of the spells from rule book, has its uses. I find it very difficult to leave that lore at home now :)

Good Luck and if you play another game it would be great to read a battle report :)

Cheers!
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#81 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks guys!

Cavalry

Your point about the charge range of cavalry is well made Swordmaster. In particular I've found the Silver Helms great to keep enemy light troops back. The armour stops them getting shot up too badly. Because they cover this base for me I find my Reavers fine with just bows. Were I to drop one unit it would probably be the Helms but I'd consider putting Spears on the Reavers and adding a sixth model to bridge the gap. I'd probably also have an eye on using Shield here.

Deployment

I have to say I don't have a set order of deployment. Yes my eagles almost always go down first but then it could be Spears, LSG, Archers, Helms, Reavers etc.. I do tend to put my strongest units down later because getting the right match-ups for these is often critical. For example, I needed DP's vs Flamers and Swordmasters vs Bloodletters in my last game and I got them.

A long time ago a strong player advised me to put my Fast Cavalry down last, so I can see where you're coming from Swordmaster. I think I've done this twice in 8th edition, it worked really well for me against Tomb Kings in a similar manner to your Bretonnian example. But order of deployment always depends what I'm up against.
Last edited by SpellArcher on Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#82 Post by SpellArcher »

Magic
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:So it is not a matter of level but number of spells to your disposal.
Good point. Further, I suggest even more important is getting the right spells to combat the enemy you are facing. This is the raison d'etre of my current set-up. With four selection dice I have what I consider '90% Loremaster'. Of course I only have five spells maximum but more important I have a 90% chance of selecting the one spell from seven that matters the most. This coupled with the fact that all of High Magic's spells work well with my army, ensures that I have an effective repertoire whatever I'm fighting. I'll go into more detail about alternative set-ups a bit later.

I have to say on the whole I'm happy with how the list is now. I've made changes as I've gone to fix problems as I've found them. The latest issue is with the lighter cavalry but we are addressing this!

:)
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#83 Post by SpellArcher »

2 Lvl 2's

Ok, so Brewmaster suggested the following set-up:

Lvl2, High, Crystal.
Lvl2, Another Lore, Seerstaff or Wand.

Now clearly this set-up, however I go with the second Mage, already improves my defence due to the Crystal. Lvl2 + Crystal is a better defence than Lvl3 with no defensive item. I've often looked with envy on other lists which feature this, it's a great item. I already have Drain Magic but the new set-up has it as well. I very likely have the RIP effect of Flames, the new set-up can mirror this if it so chooses.

The thing is though, I am happy with the level of defence I currently have. Defending the magic phase is the bit of Warhammer I've always been best at and very rarely do I lose a game because of enemy magic. Now it's possible that this will change in games to come but I tend to deal with stuff on an experiential basis, so if it starts to be a problem I can fix it then.

Offensively, I currently have four selection dice at High Magic. This is really powerful and is something I'm loath to give up. So I could take High Magic with both Mages, giving almost the same (or even better if I take the Wand) spell selection. This would give me nice options for double Drain and double Shield. If I take the Seerstaff I can pre-select Flames and Vaul's for instance, possibly doubling up on one of these but what if I need Fury and Courage for instance? My chances of rolling them go down significantly. The Wand option is strong but it costs me an extra 85 points and there are other pros and cons also.

So what if I take a different Lore on the second guy? I like the idea of a Fire Mage with Wand and Reaver Bow for example. This really buffs my ranged damage and gives me more Flaming Attacks, something I currently only have access to if I roll Flames. Plus it would allow me to drop my RBT, dependent on switching the Prince to Seafarer Bow. I've thought about this but there are problems with it, for example having to drop said Prince's Ward to a 5+.

The major problem with splitting the Lores though is that I lose the power of spell selection. The High Mage has only two dice to throw. If I'm facing Dark Elves for example, I really want Vaul's Unmaking, which I currently have a 90% chance to select. This goes down to about 40% in the new set-up which I don't like at all. Of course I can play without it but I'd much rather not have to.

I have to admit I'm really attached to my Archmage and this may be clouding my judgement. But I really believe in the power of spell selection and High Magic gives me an awful lot of options.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#84 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Spellarcher!

All fair points - just spitballing ideas here. In light of the context above, have you considered the following:

Level 2, High Magic, Seerstaff (Flames, Vaul's)
Level 2, Fire, Silver Wand

First, the benefits, of course, are that you have 6 spells split between two different lores - or do you? Fireball is actually an extremely high utility spell with it's 3 different power levels. It is effectively 3 spells in one. The combination possibilities here are plentiful, so I also wouldn't limit myself to only considering the Lore of Fire. What you're looking for here are spells that can be cast on 2 dice, yet offer high utility. This would then give you plenty of options to lead off a phase with - 2D6 with a level two doesn't make much difference, as even a level 4 needs to throw 2 dice at it or risk losing their dispel bonus.

On the dispel side, you lose +1 to dispel, but still have a respectable +3. You mention that you're the most comfortable with your dispelling, so double level 2's has a unique advantage; you have redundancy built in to your dispel bonus, so you can be a bit riskier in your dispel attempts and stretch those dice a bit further. The additional attempt to channel won't be much, but statistically it should provide you with an extra dispel dice once in the game as well.

Finally, your magic phase becomes more difficult to shut down entirely. Lose one of the models and you're at 50% instead of 100%.

Again, just throwing ideas out there.

D
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Seredain
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#85 Post by Seredain »

Interesting discussion on the magic phase, guys. SA have you thought about two level 2's packing High Magic? Casting costs aren't an issue, really (and Banner of Sorcery helps out in that department anyway), but both spell selection and defence really swing your way. First, you get access to the Crystal, the extra channel and the extra drain magic, but your spell selection is also significantly improved since, although you get access to the same number as spells as the archmage, if you choose to you can double up on Shield (excellent for MSUish elves). Throw the silver wand in as well and you have superb spell selection, allowing you the double shield while preserving your access to the other spells you really like. Throw in the Ring of Fury and you can make your spells selection stonking (spell-spam!), while ensuring you never need to chuck that many power dice and risk the miscasts (more of a problem for mages than archmages, and especially for lores like Shadow). What about:

Level 2 - High Magic, Annullian Crystal - 175
Level 2 - High Magic, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury - 185

You'll always get the spells you want in a certain matchup while also opening yourself up to the double drains, double shields and double magic missiles where you think you need them (as against these ethereals you're worried about). This setup would get you your backup caster, then, but also better defence and much better spell selection and for 50 fewer points than you'd spend on the archmage + backup Annullian caster. The Ring of Fury gets you that extra ranged aggression you might be looking for from another lore like Fire but, if you wanted to keep the High Magic utility and spend fewer points, you could lose it and you're saving 90 points then on the Lvl3 + Lvl2 setup.

Normally, I prefer 1 x Level 4 to 2 x Level 2's. This is chiefly because you get the same spell selection as the little mages but better casting power and a much greater ability to tool him up with useful items. For you, though SA, the comparison doesn't stand because the chariot prince prevents you from taking the Level 4 or equipping your archmage with powerful items. The hero-choice mages, by contrast, have pretty much free reign on item choices and I think this could make them the more powerful choice for you. Just use your archmage model to represent the SW/RoF guy - he's still packing 5 spells after all!
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SpellArcher
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#86 Post by SpellArcher »

Very interesting guys!

I think this comes down to gaming philosophy. My approach to the magic phase is "What is the minimum I have to take to get the job done". In 7th edition this was a Radiant Gem BSB plus a Lvl2 with Seerstaff and the Banner of Sorcery. Now it's the Lvl3 Archmage with Wand plus the Banner.

Consider if you will to the minimalist Daemon phase of just a Lvl2 Herald with Master of Sorcery and Spellbreaker. Now this is an excellent compromise. You have just enough defence to get by if you're clever and superb spell selection. 165 points well spent.

Now consider what I'm getting with my phase. Better defence than that, a crucial extra D3 PD and a 90% chance of getting whatever spell I want from a Lore that I think is at least as good as any book Lore with five spells in total. 285 points but a very, very efficient 285 pts.

I miss not having free access to Arcane Items, I do. But I have just enough points for the smallest, simplest item in our book, which just happens to be exactly the one that I need. Without it I have four spells at 72% selection, not enough. The difference is huge.

I can see the utility of being able to double-up on Drain, Shield and Missiles. But do I really need this ability to get by? Double Drain is not really my style. Double Shield is great but essentially, that's a combat buff and after a bit of creative thinking, I now have Courage for that! Ethereals could be a pain but I probably have Flames, I have a magic bow, I'll soon have Amulet of Light. Not comfortable but enough to get by.

I like the Lore of Fire. Flaming, Magical attacks, a great shooting/combat buff and some other tricks too. But in this scenario it costs me the in-game spell selection on my main Lore and that's too high a price for me. I take the point about improved dispelling flexibility, maybe I am thinking too simply. But my phases often boil down to stopping a single killer spell and most or all of my dice +4 are the automatic answer. I've also built my army and characters to take a few knocks in the magic phase, so if the other guy gets some spells off it won't break me.

This discussion has been very useful because it's convinced me I don't need a support caster for my Archmage. Why add 165 points to the phase I have when it's doing the job already? More troops instead please (and maybe some White Lions)...

:)
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#87 Post by Curu Olannon »

My 2 cents: in this case 2x level 2's is the best build. Reasons?
- increased protection against sniping/miscasts
- 2 arcane slots
- more spells
- more duplication (very important)
- allows you to spend those Lord points as you wish without compromising anything

I would second Seredain's suggested setup. Essentially, it makes your magic downright terrifying as opposed to a bit offensive. The main clue here is redundancy. Double Shield, Drain and Fury is incredibly flexible! At least I would advice you give it a try for ~5 games and see how it plays.
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SpellArcher
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#88 Post by SpellArcher »

On reflection, I'm going.to drop a unit of cavalry for 10 White Lions. This will hopefully give the list more weight. I'll try this change for three games. If I feel the magic needs changing after this, so be it.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#89 Post by JayDoubleA »

As an effective newbie (haven't played a game of Warhammer for about 20 years), slowly easing myself back into things with masses of reading and painting, I'd like to say that this thread has been extremely informative as well as entertaining.

Thanks a lot to all who have been and are contributing their sage wisdom for the likes of unblooded, but enthusiastic, generals such as me.
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Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#90 Post by Jal »

Lo Phil, how you doing?

Just start me HE's (DE on backburner after SCGT - played near enough 80 games in 5 months with them!) so it'll be good to see how you and Randho run them for some ideas. I'm currently leaning towards a Brewmaster D style Coven, but we shall see!
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