Chariot Prince Evolution

This forum is for the posting of reports of your famous victories and crushing defeats. It is for both single battle reports and for ongoing army diaries/blogs.

Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters

Message
Author
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#31 Post by SpellArcher »

Well, having gone through my collection of old figures it's going to be tough to convert up what I need, more inspiration required!

Hard to get games in at the moment due to domestic demands. We'll see how it goes...
Csjarrat
Posts: 905
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:38 pm

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#32 Post by Csjarrat »

Got a few games in with a chariot prince and a chariot noble last night against OnG (all Orc list)
Things I learned- reaver bow is a waste of time. Too expensive, too few shots, chariot needs to be in cc
-chariot works best as a countercharger with PG or WL. Let them take the hit and pile into enemy flank. Problem is that the damage output is pretty much similar to lion chariot but the noble build is a lot more points. Prince alone is more.
- rgoh is ok on chariot prince but paints a big target on his head.
- realistically char builds should be as cheap as possible. Performance doesn't scale with investment unlike dragons. Armour of caledor, guardian Phoenix and gw would be fine.

Although the model looks seriously cool, you can get similar damage output by using a lion chariot for cheaper for everyday rnf killing and support work
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#33 Post by SpellArcher »

Csjarrat wrote:reaver bow is a waste of time. Too expensive, too few shots, chariot needs to be in cc
Well, you could compare the 40pts to the 100pts for a bolt shooter.

I think it depends on your build. I get the impression you have a fairly attack-oriented army and playstyle Csjarrat. I don't. Even with more competitive lists I have run in the past (and am aiming for with this army in the future) only a small part of my units head straight for the enemy. I tend to split things into three, with one command of light troops, one of Core infantry and the third of offensive troops. Only the last one tends to head straight for the enemy. Also I field plenty of shooting. Having Reaver Bow on top of 2 RBT, 2 shooty core units and shooty light troops (plus maybe a spell like Curse) makes a difference.
Csjarrat wrote:chariot works best as a countercharger with PG or WL. Let them take the hit and pile into enemy flank
Agree completely but if you've combo-charged with Lions, going in frontally may be enough.
Csjarrat wrote:damage output is pretty much similar to lion chariot
Which is why I consider the Bow and the Ld very important. Also consider what a Prince with Talisman of Loec (I am putting this back in!) can do. He can take down characters or hard monsters against which multiple S5 hits would ping.
Nithe
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:14 pm
Location: USA

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#34 Post by Nithe »

SpellArcher wrote:Csjarrat wrote:
reaver bow is a waste of time. Too expensive, too few shots, chariot needs to be in cc

Well, you could compare the 40pts to the 100pts for a bolt shooter.

I think it depends on your build. I get the impression you have a fairly attack-oriented army and playstyle Csjarrat. I don't.
I think that part of the issue with a reaver bow on a guy in a chariot is kind of like putting a mage on a dragon. One is built for close combat the other you want to keep out of close combat. The chariot scenario isn't quite as extreme as the mage on dragon but there is some correlation. You want the chariot to get in some charges but want to keep the reaver bow shooting so it doesn't mesh well.
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#35 Post by Curu Olannon »

I believe Reaver Bow can function perfectly well! For 40 points, it's a steal and against a lot of armies you'll find attractive targets to shoot at. Also, with SpellArcher's defensive stance focus, I think he'll get more out of it than you're average High Elf army.
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#36 Post by SpellArcher »

See, I think Reaver Bow actually meshes quite well with the chariot.

Chariots can't march. So instantly you solve the 'march or shoot' problem. You still have a decent M9 though and pivot movement, which lets you set up shots with the Bow quite nicely. The lack of marching means that usually for the first couple of turns you won't charge, so letting you get some shots off. When you do get into combat, all that's sleeping is the 40pts for the Bow, everything else is being used. There will also often be a time when you've won a combat, pursued and are then unable to charge in your next turn. So the Bow gets used again. At the tail end of the game and there are fewer units left, enemy may well be out of charge range. They're usually in Bow range though and anything down to one or two models can usually be picked off for extra VP's.

Yeah Curu, I've just found I like the way it plays. It's yet to work for me under 8th as sweetly as it did under 7th but as the list gets honed, it will.

Oh and there's something gloriously Pharaonic about a Chariot Archer.

:)
Csjarrat
Posts: 905
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:38 pm

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#37 Post by Csjarrat »

Yeah, I always forget to put in the disclaimer "it didn't work in MY army" lol. To be fair it was an all-Orc horde, so there wasn't a huge array of viable targets for it. I'm sure against other armies it would have performed better.
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'
Marastus
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#38 Post by Marastus »

i really hope that the reaver bow works for you, i think the reaver bow is better than the bolt thrower bow in this addition its great for wraith's and small annoying things, mangler squigs and the like. I hope you can get a good solid list to work round this.
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1134
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#39 Post by Seredain »

SpellArcher wrote:See, I think Reaver Bow actually meshes quite well with the chariot.

Chariots can't march. So instantly you solve the 'march or shoot' problem. You still have a decent M9 though and pivot movement, which lets you set up shots with the Bow quite nicely. The lack of marching means that usually for the first couple of turns you won't charge, so letting you get some shots off. When you do get into combat, all that's sleeping is the 40pts for the Bow, everything else is being used. There will also often be a time when you've won a combat, pursued and are then unable to charge in your next turn. So the Bow gets used again. At the tail end of the game and there are fewer units left, enemy may well be out of charge range. They're usually in Bow range though and anything down to one or two models can usually be picked off for extra VP's.

Yeah Curu, I've just found I like the way it plays. It's yet to work for me under 8th as sweetly as it did under 7th but as the list gets honed, it will.

Oh and there's something gloriously Pharaonic about a Chariot Archer.

:)
+1 for the Reaver Bow! It's actually an excellent item for the chariot prince since, as you say SA, you benefit from the chariot's high movement without having to march. I might (not sure) question the logic of taking it in an otherwise non-shooty list but, with the repeaters and bows in there as well, not to mention High Magic for the arrow curse, it rounds off a seriously powerful shooting phase. And then High Elf princes have BS 6- it's nice to see it being used alongside all the other close combat and leadership qualities- we pay the points for it, after all.

I'm not sure about imitating the Pharaohs, though- all that brother/sister inbreeding led to some seriously bad overbites. Ick. Anyway, get your Game on soon- I want to see this chariot archer in action!
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#40 Post by Curu Olannon »

+1 for seeing action soon ;)

I've been thinking - against which armies is the Reaver Bow not a solid choice? Obviously, it shines against anything with glass cannons (anything Elven, some human units), annoying units (squigs, weapon teams), fast cav (pistoliers, dark riders, marauder horsemen) etc. The only things it won't matter too much against is big units exclusively (some ogre/warriors of chaos lists, among others) but these are already at a disadvantage against us because of being dominated in the movement phase. I suppose it's not too good against pure hordes either, but I have yet to see these lists: they always have support (chariots, manglers, fast cav, skirmishers).

So yeah, I really hope and believe this can be a solid choice. Get a game on :)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#41 Post by SpellArcher »

Your wish is my (somewhat belated!) command....

So last Sunday I finally got to play some more Warhammer. Mini-report here:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=37107

I took:

Prince, Chariot, DA, GW, Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Endurance, Loec.
Lvl3, High Magic, Seerstaff, Drain, Shield, Curse, Flames.
BSB, Armour of Caledor, GW, Guardian Phoenix.

10 Archers, Musician, Std.
24 Spears, Champion, Music.
15 LSG, Shields, FC, Arcane Protection.

10 Swordmasters, FC, Swiftness, Skeinsliver.
5 Dragon Princes, FC, Razor, Potion of Strength, Luckstone.
5 Silver Helms, Std, Musician.
5 Reavers, Bows not Spears, Std, Music.

2 RBT
2 Eagles

So not the list I drafted earlier in this thread. Basically I stuck with the Seerstaff because on reflection I decided I really did need Curse and Flames. Also, having dropped the support Mage I also dropped Banner of Sorcery. Several times in the first tourney I'd found myself with Power Dice I couldn't use effectively. With the four spells from High Magic, I generally get about three useful casts each turn (sometimes four) and for that I need between six and eight power dice (rarely 9/10). So Sorcery was not essential.

Given that my Archmage was still running without a Ward save I thought it prudent to keep Arcane Protection on the LSG. I'd also come down on the side of keeping the Prince as was, favouring Talisman of Loec and Dragon Armour over the 4+ Ward. I am still not sure about this.

The biggest problem with my first list was the lack of combat power. So I upped the Spears to 24 as planned. I also gave Razor, Potion of Strength and the Luckstone to the DP's. Thus very expensive for a 5-strong unit but I was severely restricted in models and desperately needed more hitting power.

I'd found that the old models I had to convert to elite infantry only stretched to a 10-strong unit and this looked better as Swordmasters than White Lions. I was not too disappointed, as this was more badly needed killing power and even if only five made it to combat they would help. I gave them Swiftness and Skeinsliver to give them the best chance of doing so.

So how did the army perform?
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#42 Post by SpellArcher »

Overall, I did not do so well. Whether that was down largely to my sub-optimal list is moot I feel. I definately did not play fully to it's strengths and have plenty of ideas for how to use it better. I am not inclined to make major changes to it until I've had a chance to test it out some more.

Prince

As in the first tournament I had problems using him effectively in the first two games. In game one he was trapped by skinks and overwhelmed by Kroxigor. In game two he got flank charged by Goblins. In game three however, he began by shooting a Wraith and then combo-charged a Ghoul horde with my Spears, destroying it, which is how he ought to work.

I've still not found Talisman of Loec that useful, being unable so far to get the Prince into contact with the right targets. When I do use it the lost wound is sometimes fatal. So I'm tempted to take the 4+ Ward instead. Dragon armour is helpful but not yet massively so.

Archmage

Happy. In game one he got a few spells off and was then Feedbacked on top of the Bane Head. Live and learn. If he gets Bane Headed again I'll be a little more careful of throwing four dice at a spell. Sure I'd lost my only caster but it was mid-game and was not what lost me it.

In game two he got a few low-key spells off and was effective defensively. In game three he got a crucial Shield off on my Spears against the Ghouls, as well as a few other spells. He couldn't stop Vanhels/Invocation spam completely but did enough to let my combat troops finish the job.

BSB

Survived all three games, held my line steady and killed a Necromancer in game three. No problemo!
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#43 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi SpellArcher!

As I have mentioned in your battle report I really like your unique idea and the fact you keep trying. :)

It is a very interesting observation abut how much power dice you need for your spells. But then, if you had Banner of Sorcery you could always try to cast all of your spells per turn with more dice and better chance of your opponent not being able to dispel. Or is it too risky in terms of possibility to get IF too? I am not worried about your Archmage ability to cast spells but I wonder how "only" +4 to dispel instead of +5 affects your magical defense. Do you miss 4th level in that part of the game? It is very good idea to give banner of arcane protection to the unit where he stays to add some extra protection against spells.

If I remember the points for items correctly you are not using full allowance for the Prince just yet. Of course 4+ ward is a good item and definitely useful for a chariot Prince in particular. I am just wondering if little trinkets like the other trickster shard or even potion of toughness would not be good for him.

What models did you use for Swordmasters? I agree that DP unit is a little expensive but then it does pack some punch and if you combine charges with a Prince and/or other units it would be quite efficient. The trick is to get into that combat without casualties :)

Another unusual choice you have is about Reavers with bows but without spears. Any particular reason for that?

Looking forward to reading about your ideas for the rest of the army list :)

Cheers!
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
Posts: 1134
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#44 Post by Seredain »

Hey SA,

Just checked out your mini-tournie reports. Interesting things to ponder, there. I reckon a fast list with shooting elements like yours should be able to take skink-based lists if you focus your fire and charges, leaving the saurus blocks as being more of a problem. Would you have another crack at that army with some success, you think? The Bane Head/ Feedback combo is a total bastard, though. Hate it. I can imagine lots of people don't take it because, they think, enemy level 4s will usually have decent ward saves. Scares me, though...

Loved the orc army you played- I bet it looked good on the table. Let me know when another one of these informal little London tournies is coming up, would you? I need to enter one I think.

I like the small changes you've made in the current list. Loec is a big deal on a charging chariot prince though, especially with this guy's armour save, I'd feel a little more comfortable being able to put wounds back on him (useful for the chariot itself, too). Having said that, I like High in your army - you just might need to choose especially carefully when you pop the talisman.

I'd recommend you to lose the command groups for your next update but we could do that dance forever. :)
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#45 Post by SpellArcher »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:As I have mentioned in your battle report I really like your unique idea and the fact you keep trying.
You are very kind.

Yes, the problem with rolling more dice than are necessary to match the CV of a spell is increased risk of miscasting, which often ends your phase. As Furion analyses in his thread, 2-die casts of spells such as Drain, Shield and Curse are extremely reliable, very unlikey to either fail or miscast. I typically cast Flames last with more dice, though the occasional 2-die cast (needing 8+) could be worth a go I think.

I've never run a lvl4 in 8th edition so I don't know what I'm missing! In general though, I've found the +4 to be enough. Some stuff will get through but it shouldn't be fatal, especially with the UK comps typically limiting the magic phase. Arcane Protection was handy in my second game and that 25pts is from Core allocation!

My ideal build for the Prince includes 4+ Ward, Loec and DA but this takes me over the 600pts Lords cap, unless I drop Seerstaff for Silver Wand. I had thought that might be a way to go but the more I reflect on the games, the more I think I need Curse and Flames. Other Trickster's Shard is great offensively with the chariot's large base but do I want that many enemies hitting the Prince back? Not sure.

The Swordmasters are converted 3rd edition Wardancers! From the time when the Elven Kingdoms could actually field such things. The Reaver bows are pure aesthetics, I wanted to make the unit look different from the Silver Helms!
Last edited by SpellArcher on Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#46 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote:Hey SA,
Ave!

There were so many skinks. But really it was the combats with the Kroxigor that defined things. Pleased I managed to get the Swordmasters into combat unscathed. A bit lucky with that combat but it just shows the utility of such a unit in my army, I needed threat and it paid off big time. The other combat was slightly unlucky but to win it I needed to soften the Krox up first. I should have deployed my shooting and magic so as to allow me to target them effectively. This is the single biggest thing I need to change in the way I play the army, so that Curse of Arrow Attraction becomes a big deal for my opponent.

When the TO clocked the Bane Head/Feedback combo he shouted 'wrong!'. From now on though I will of course smell Feedback any time my AM gets Bane Headed. In a pinch all my spells can be 2-diced, which is an acceptable risk.

I'll PM you on the one-dayers.
User avatar
Elithmar
Young Eataini Prince
Posts: 3669
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#47 Post by Elithmar »

When I eventually increase my list to 2000pts and include my own chariot prince, I was going to use the Reaver Bow too. It just feels so Egyptian! I think your reasons for why it is a good choice for a chariot prince is great too - I'd never thought about that before!

Well, now I can justify taking it...
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#48 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks Elithmar.

Going with unusual fluff picks is great because often it lets you try thngs out you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. Sometimes there are hidden benefits there and new ways of playing the army.
User avatar
Elithmar
Young Eataini Prince
Posts: 3669
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#49 Post by Elithmar »

It's easy to just copy the most effective army list and enjoy many wins, but it's much more enjoyable to try out something new and possibly unthought of and see it do well.

For example, this thread by Nemo. The cavlary prince list has been proven to work very well (thank you, Seredain!), but this is a nice new approach prompted by history. Spearelves aren't the best unit, but this list is nice and fluffy with the phalanx. I hope it works.
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#50 Post by SpellArcher »

Spears

As planned, I'd upped these to 24 as I found 19 just too small. At present I always deploy the BSB with them and they tend to go pretty central, an early drop usually. They've worked pretty well so far. I lost them in game one but more would not really have helped here. Game two the combat was inconclusive. Game three though they crumbled the Ghoul Horde with my General which the old unit of 19 might not have managed. I may need to up them to 29 in the long run but at present I'm happy with 24.

Archers

From the extortionate unit of 12 plus Light Armour and Full Command, I'd dropped them to a more reasonable 10 with no armour, Std and Musician. They were slightly disappointing but not awful. Not a bad spend of Core points really I think, so they stay in.

LSG

My most controversial Core pick, they did Ok here. 15 with FC and Arcane Protection, primarily a Mage bunker of course. They did this job well enough, the magic std saving the AM at one point. Game three they got eaten by a Varghulf (after the AM left the unit) but the dice were slightly unkind. I like them but more testing needed.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#51 Post by SpellArcher »

Swordmasters

Oh yes! Watched in delight as they chopped up a unit of six Kroxigor in game one, slightly fortunate of course. Game two lost them carelessly. Game three they held off due to having to babysit the AM. The list desperately needed them and they are doing fine, so they stay in. The Skeinsliver got me first turn in game 2 which was important. Banner of Swiftness less obviously effective but it's only 15pts and I can't help feeling it'll be useful sometime.

Dragon Princes

Another controversial pick. Hamstrung a bit by full command modelled onto the unit, I toyed with the idea of dropping it down to 180pts (just Std and Musician). Given my chronic lack of combat power though, I decided to load it up with Potion of Strength, Luckstone and Razor Std. I just asked too much of these guys in game one against six Kroxigor, though the magic items worked fairly well here. Game two they were left exposed by bad deployment and I lost them again. Game three they faced Wraiths and just backed off and backed off.

I've been tempted by stuff like Ellyrion and Amulet of Light but I think I'm sticking with the combat load-out. The unit is less forgiving than the Swordmasters of my bad deployment and play! If I get these sorted out I expect to be able to make better use of the combat power.

Another point is that my Prince was typically deployed between my Spears and my Swordmasters, making a combo-charge with the DP's more difficult. Not many units enjoy being hit by both (I'd have taken the Kroxigor). I think I'll have to consider this possibility more in future games, as both have good movement and Swiftstride for reliability.

Silver Helms

Again, not awesome but when I look back they didn't do so bad. Just didn't have the power to help the DP's much against the Kroxigor, maybe I should have skink-hunted with them. Game two they played chess with a unit of Wolf Chariots, not a bad use. Game three they cleared away Fell Bats and did a decent distraction job on my left flank.

They are my utility unit and I've toyed with the idea of replacing them with a Mage. However, it's good to have an extra unit sometimes. Once I've sorted out my shooting I'll re-evaluate whether more magic is necessary.

Reavers

Not bad. A sacrificial delaying job in game one was worth it I feel. Game two I didn't use them ideally on my left flank. Game three got Terrorgheisted but didn't give up the points, so not too bad.
Last edited by SpellArcher on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#52 Post by SpellArcher »

RBT

Each game I deployed these split and fairly central on my baseline. This didn't work too badly at the first tournament. There were eight terrain pieces each time but these weren't huge so the RBT could shoot reasonably freely. At the second tournament, the eight pieces were taller and bulkier. So although I got to shoot something with them each turn, I had a worse choice of targets.

I feel like I need to deploy them either on hills or late on, so I can focus them both (and my other shooting) on a single target and then Arrow Curse and Flame it. This would help out my combat troops big time.

Eagles

Always good, they did the standard sacrificial job most of the time. Tempted by game 2 to take three but really, better play will work just as well I feel.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#53 Post by SpellArcher »

Conclusion

So although it's tempting to say "If I'd just had a few more mega-combat units I'd have won easily!" I think I am sticking with the list for now. Better deployment of my shooters will be key, especially the RBT. So I'll try to get this working and see what effect it has.

If I'm still struggling after that I might swap the Silver Helms for a Mage and put the Banner of Sorcery back in. I toyed with the idea of putting Radiant Gem (Drain and Shield) and Luckstone on the BSB and taking Metal on the AM, specifically Enchanted Blades, Glittering Robe and Final Transmutation. So two defensive buffs but I'm still wary of the vulnerability of the BSB, especially in this list where his unit needs to get into combat and miscasts could put wounds on him.

The other issue is that as things stand the AM is quite reliable defensively. He didn't miscast once. While we obviously need some kind of offense I feel a balance has to be struck. He costs 255pts and Arcane Protection is 25pts from Core. If I'm desparate he can still six-dice a spell I really need to go through. More testing needed...
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#54 Post by SpellArcher »

On Saturday I played in another one-day event, report here:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=38181

I took:

Prince, Chariot, DA, GW, Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Loec.
Lvl3, High Magic, Silver Wand.
BSB, Armour of Caledor, GW, Guardian Phoenix.

10 Archers, LA, Musician, Std.
24 Spears, Champion, Musician.
15 LSG, Shields, FC, Arcane Protection.

14 Swordmasters, FC, Sorcery, Skeinsliver.
5 Dragon Princes, FC, Razor, Potion of Strength, Luckstone.
5 Silver Helms, Std, Musician.
5 Reavers, Bows not Spears, Std, Music.

RBT
2 Eagles

So I changed the list after all. Firstly, I added four Swordmasters to help the unit fight better without support. I put in the Banner of Sorcery. Although I like the reliability of the old phase, I felt this list needed the extra power dice to put more pressure on the enemy. To pay for these I dropped the Banner of Swiftness and an RBT. I figured I still had enough shooting for a respectable phase without it and deploying it all effectively would certainly be easier! To make full use of the extra power dice I swapped Seerstaff out for Silver Wand and an extra spell. While I risked not getting any one spell I really wanted, the chance was still 90% and the flexibility of four rolled spells would let me tailor in-game better against each opponent. Finally, the 20 points saved let me swap Talisman of Endurance for Preservation, upgrading the Prince's Ward save from 5+ to 4+. I had 10 points left over which I invested in some light armour for the Archers, as the Lords cap and other unit limits left me little option.

More to come on how it all went....
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#55 Post by SpellArcher »

The Chariot Prince

This guy has been seen by many (including myself!) as a bit of a fluff pick, something to enjoy yourself with. Indeed having run him in 7th and reviewing the 8th edition rules for cannon vs mounted characters I doubted he was even viable. However, the Charmed Shield convinced me to give him a go. For my first eight tournament games he didn't really pull his weight. The ninth though, made me suspect that he really did have potential and I ventured that opinion on another thread. This weekend has convinced me he is a competitive pick.

Firstly, shooting. This had been Ok before but I needed to shave points from the list and risked dropping an RBT in the belief that Reaver Bow would pick up the slack. This was completely vindicated. In particular the fire concentration I set up in the second game (LSG, RBT, Reaver Bow, Reavers) was very effective. Good deployment of shooters meant that I hardly missed the extra RBT, what I had was enough to do the job. So this 40pt item is saving me 100pts for the RBT.

Perhaps even more importantly though, he was a combat monster here. The combination of impact hits and Talisman of Loec meant he scythed through several units and characters in the course of the three games. Often he worked closely with my Dragon Princes to pull off combo charges. He actually died in game one but the chariot didn't and was able to break and run down the enemy. It survived the game and no VP's were given up.

Of course there are still downsides to him. His mere presence pretty much restricts my Archmage to Lvl3. This is a nerf but not a major one I've found. I really like the improved 4+ Ward, especially as he's frequently losing a wound to Talisman of Loec. Lack of a good armour save does make him vulnerable in combat but at present he's surviving well enough. Needless to say I'll be continuing to run him, though I am considering a slight change to his equipment in the light of some possible amendments to the list.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#56 Post by SpellArcher »

Magic

So in this tournament, I played a Lvl 3 with High Magic and Silver Wand. This gave me five spells, which was fine, even with Banner of Sorcery. Offensively I've no complaints. In the first game I got two crucial spells off (Arrow Curse and Vaul's). Game two I was facing DE with a Lvl4 with Dagger and a Lvl1 with Scroll, so slightly outmatched. Even so, I found the magic largely cancelled out with Searing Doom wrecking my Helms being the most decisive use and at the end of the day they are a 129pt support unit. I got Flames off a couple of times on his Corsairs and this drew off PD in his phase which helped me defensively. Managed to lose two levels to a miscast but of course remained a Lvl1 wizard with 3 spells, Banner of Sorcery and +2 to dispel, so not disastrous.

Game three was a bit more hairy but I wouldn't say magic was decisive. Again, Flames and Drain Magic kept me going. Again, the Helms went down to Searing Doom but this put a wound on the Sorceress and I was able to elf-shoot her at game's end with my Prince. Again, I lost two magic levels, with similar effects. A bit lucky defensively perhaps in these two games but High Magic definitely helped me here.

Still, I'm looking into the possibility of a second caster. I've seen the benefits of a back-up in the event of Archmage-doom and especially, the flexibility that access to a second Lore grants you. High Magic is a great solo Lore because it has a defensive buff, a decent MM, a good shooting buff and a unit-hurting spell, plus some other tricks, notably Vaul's. It also carries inherant magic defence and good ranged threat compared to some Lores. In my view it falls down in two areas, killing hard things and combat buffs.

I've long been monitoring the idea of something like a Shadow Mage with Seerstaff. Furion and others have proved that this works with High Magic. I would auto-select Withering and Pit. Pit really gives my list something it lacks, the ability to hurt things like tough Monsters and powerful, low I infantry. Withering is good because it supercharges subsequent attacks in all three phases of the game. Both are pretty much 4-die spells for a Mage but that's less of an issue because the AM would have 2-die spells available and losing the Mage to a miscast could be coped with.

So a definite possibility. The problem is that he costs 165 points. I'm sure I could strip stuff out and fit him in but the downsides would have to be considered. The other thing is that something in me rebels against buying an extra character when we have access to the Radiant Gem. I'm very pleased to have been able to drop an RBT due to Reaver Bow. Getting a support mage in by means of the Gem is extremely tempting.

It just wouldn't fit on the Prince, as Reaver Bow is a given and his other equipment does not allow for 45 points on the Gem. That means the BSB is my only option. As we know, 8th edition has made this guy both more vulnerable and more important to the army. Now plenty of guys run theirs with low protection and World Dragon say, or Reaver Bow but these are generally kept out of combat. My list does not have the power to do this cleanly, the BSB needs to fight at some point.

One solution is to mount him up, for the improved armour save. Luckstone or Charmed Shield can give him a 2+ save with a bonus but he would have to take lance and be a compromise in combat. I would also have to increase my Silver Helms and use them as a bodyguard for him, which changes list dynamics considerably. It's a possibility.

Is it possible to run him on foot? So he's Dragon Armour, GW, Gem. I then look at the Lores available. I think High Magic here, for the cheap protective buff (both for him and others) and the bonus defensive spell. I could go Shadow on the AM to complement him but the problem here is that debuffs on the enemy can be dispelled in his turn as they are RIP.

Another option is Metal. If I give him the Luckstone, I would get a 3+ AS from Glittering Robe, with one re-roll and of course Shield as a back-up. It's risky but it might just be viable. I'm looking at Seerstaff on the Lvl3, selecting Robe, Blades and Final Transmutation. So I would get three combat buffs, which would help my Core infantry out a lot, in addition to the BSB.

A problem with this set-up is the lack of pressure on the enemy early on. Final Transmutation is wonderful for a 4-die spell but it lacks back up. The key might be where Drain Magic is effective and other options like Ruby Ring or Blades vs Ethereals or other soft shooting targets. Of course once anything gets into combat the enemy has a real dispelling dilemma.

What to do, eh?
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#57 Post by SpellArcher »

Shooting

As mentioned above, the list coped with losing an RBT almost seamlessly. I was able to deploy what I had effectively and set up useful concentrations of fire. This was very pleasing as it had been my biggest concern with the roster. In particular I am using the LSG better.

In general the Reavers had a tough weekend. But in game 2 they added to the fire I was pouring into the Black Guard and Harpies. I was sceptical about the bows but for just 10 points they add 5 shots to the army. I also like the mobility and think there is potential in combination with the CP's magic bow.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#58 Post by SpellArcher »

Fighting Dark Elves

So the army had it's first two games against DE. In general these proved as hard as their reputation but the list has tools against them, it's not the worst match-up.

These two armies were typical of the currently popular Cauldron combat build. So they only had 20 or so RXB's. I had more shooting, so they had to come to me. One trick I missed was taking Vaul's against them. Removing the Pendant at a crucial moment could have been key.

The Cauldron makes DE's very flexible, able to buff reliably in the most efficient way. When combined with th combat advantages of Black Guard say, this often means we have to apply overwelming force to win combat.

One particular bugbear is the Hydra. In particular it caused the Swordmasters lots of pain. I could do with reducing the damage such opponents can put on the SM's in combat. They could also do with some kind of Ld boost. Hmm...
Bolt Thrower
Posts: 2021
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 3:13 am
Location: Illinois, USA

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#59 Post by Bolt Thrower »

I am considering the lvl 2 with seer as well in my list. It is quite an investment, but I find that the radiant gem came up lacking in my case too often to justify (which is a shame because I love the idea!). I am leaning towards shooting on the Prince similar to your reaver bow and then picking up a level 2 in support. I discuss it a bit in my topic here: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=38131

I think to justify the point spend, you really need to be critical when making your lore selection. I like High on your archmage because he can cast with such efficiency. Using the seer to maximize support potential with a lore and selection that best supports your list dynamic is tricky. For you, it sounds like metal could be a good option going for blades and glittering robe. These are two that I've also considered, but I am leaning more towards fire right now.
Battle Standard Bearer. Don't leave home without it.
Bolt Thrower's High Elves
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Chariot Prince Evolution

#60 Post by SpellArcher »

A Support Caster

I've been thinking about this a lot BT. The Shadowseer would let me deal with more things at range and the Metal equivalent would certainly beef up my combat potential. This would mean dropping a unit, probably the Silver Helms. These are not a decisive unit but they do a useful job on the flank, chasing off enemy light troops. They have the armour to not get shot cheaply and are a handy deployment drop. In all three games I had more units, which was a nice feeling!

I am really tempted by the Radiant Gem. The questions are for me, would it make my phase more effective and how vulnerable would the bearer be? There's a danger that it compromises my anvil too much. I am also unsure how well either Metal or Shadow would go on my Lvl3, with regard to the army as a whole.

I think you make a very good point about High Magic. The low casting costs and 24" ranges work well with the army and rolling four selection dice at it is excellent. So I'm inclined to keep the magic as it is for now. I am a bit short on combat buffs but my best fighters are fairly tooled up offensively.

The one change I am inclined to make it to put Standard of Balance on the Swordmasters. Many of the most powerful enemy have Hatred and/or Frenzy and the SM's job is to kill these. They will do it more efficiently if they are not getting so chopped up in return! I also like the ITP as the SM's are often deployed away from my General. The re-rolled Ld8 is pretty solid but not a guarantee and things become dicey if the BSB dies or moves away. There are also plenty of spells and effects in the game that do not work vs ITP.

Banner of Sorcery will go on the DP's. Razor standard is nice but I can manage without it.
Post Reply