Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:42 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 161 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:58 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
I was happy with the deployment in this game. My best stuff was opposite a chunk of my opponent's army it could get stuck into. In particular his strongest unit (the Beasts) which was nevertheless no match for the World Dragon Swordmasters. In contrast his dangerous flyers were tucked away in a corner. Sure, I would shoot at them but they had to come out to play at some point and my phase was not awesome.

As it happened my opponent put up a fight on the left but was eventually overrun. On the right I got the break when the cannon vaped. This let me put the Phoenix into the Daemonettes early and hold up his push. At one point I thought he would win this fight but at least that would leave two victorius flanks facing off turns 5/6, drawish. The eagle changed all that. The application of just a small extra force in the right place decisively swung the combat. 50 points well spent!

Eagles

Much has been written on this site about their uses. Given the 50% meta though, they're becoming less popular, as flyers are king and these can't be redirected. The difference at this event was that almost all my opponents had infantry and against this style of enemy redirection rocks. Especially when your army depends on picking it's fights.

As this last game powerfully showed though, eagles do more than just redirection. Their small footprint, disposability and especially flight give any army options. It really is the case that having a broad selection of troops arms you. Especially when some of those are not the strongest in a straight-up fight.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:59 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
Conclusion

I placed 9th/32 which I was happy with. I've played exclusively Wood Elves for the past two years and could never crack the top half. Contrast with this result and the 6th/12 and 5th/12 of my two previous High Elf outings. Perhaps there's a moral there! It also makes me wonder what I could achieve with a more competitive list.

This was a good tournament, pleasant to play and nicely balanced. The winner was Irishranger of this forum but playing Daemons, I believe he came close to a maximum score. Kairos Fateweaver was popular here but we also saw more unusual stuff, like Thomas Munk's WE Dragon list (he did OK). Some small UK events are going with 8th in the next few months and I hope Stevie Boxall, the TO here, joins them.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:25 pm
Posts: 23
Thanks for the latest batrep :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:16 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
You're welcome Maturin.

Playing High Elves again was a breath of fresh air.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:28 am 
Offline
Young Eataini Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 3605
Thanks for the reports and congratulations on the result. :)

Clearly the swordmasters were key to success in each game. I didn't realise they'd be protected against runed organ guns, but then I haven't had to face dwarfs very often. Definitely a handy point to note.

Could you say a bit more about the chariot prince? From what you wrote, it seems like he struggled to make back his points in any of the games. I was wondering though if the fact he has swiftstride and impact hits helped to influence your opponents' movement phases. I can see this as being useful if they're worried about receiving a combined charge from him and one of the infantry units. However, since you want the swordmasters in combat as soon as possible, I can only really see this as being useful to protect your shooters. Could you elaborate on his role and how effective you think he was?

_________________
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:56 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
Thanks Elithmar.

I can't overstress the goodness of a unit where World Dragon is paired with killing power. I've seen players pile all their characters into one and just solo the Dwarf army. Game four it met it's nemesis, Dwellers but again I made a mistake by advancing too cautiously and my other units had to pick up the slack.

Elithmar wrote:
make back his points

I believe this concept is mistaken. The value of a unit (any unit) to it's army is too complex to judge simply by how many points in enemy it kills. Eagles are a classic example of this, or wizards who keep off superior enemy magic for example.

As I touched on earlier, the Chariot Prince does several things for the army. The first is mobile Ld10. Take a look at Furion's old book shooting list. He has a 210pt Prince in it. Why? Overwhelmingly for mobile Ld 10. Sure he added Seafarer Bow and limited combat gear but those are side-benefits. In contrast to my Wood Elf games, here I hardly failed a meaningful Ld test all tournament because of the BSB in a central infantry unit and my Ld10 general within touching distance (the chariot strongly encourages a fairly central deployment).

Secondly, not dying. No points were scored for the Prince all tournament, despite his being shot at with Organ fire, Gatewayed, Banished etc.. Why? Because two-thirds of hits are randomised to the chariot (it died twice). Now, you can lose a Griffon and still not give up any points if the rider survives. But that's 150pts plus that you can't use, the chariot costs 70pts. On a flyer, you are also likely to be far from protective infantry but see the Dwarf game here where the dismounted Prince simply unit-hopped to safety.

Thirdly, shooting. On the face of things, Reaver Bow without Potion of Strength is underwhelming. But this is shooting you get every round the Prince is not in combat. RBT are great but you often lose them, so they might only shoot for three turns for example. Consider the Daemon game here where the Horrors were methodically shot off the board turns 5/6. BS7 is also good for hitting at modifiers, where an RBT might need a six for example. Magical shooting is good vs Ethereals, he can Stand and Shoot etc..

The game he did get into combat it was crucial to let the Phoenix break the PG immediately, these were the only two units I had that were good vs PG (see OTS). He then of course charged and destroyed the RBT. Game one he didn't really have time to get into combat. Game two I made the decision after making the break through to hover and shoot with him, as my cavalry were already cleaning up the war machines. Game three was all about World Dragon, nothing else engaged, by design. Game five the Swordmasters beat the Beasts and the enemy's attacking wing never made it across to demand attention.

All of that said, it is arguable that he should have seen more combat. I have to say I enjoy using my WE Lord more because he is in a unit that can take charges. He is also better at killing characters, which is a huge loss from my old HE list, Talisman of Loec was huge. This is the frustrating thing, my HE list has World Dragon and the Phoenix but the support units are less efficient. Every unit in my WE list is efficient but I don't have that main combat unit that opens up the board.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:00 am 
Offline
Young Eataini Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 3605
I agree that you can't judge a unit just by whether it makes back its points, which is why I asked about controlling the movement phase. I would consider his shooting to also be judged by whether he earns back points. I accept that ld10 is important, but then a prince on foot or a horse would give you that, or even a noble or archmage in a unit with the standard of discipline (spears?).

You mention him not giving up points. I can see the value of this, but I've always thought that was a very inefficient way to build a list. Yes, he won't give up those few hundred points; however, a more efficient use of those points could help you a lot more.

I'm not trying to suggest you should drop the chariot prince. He's the defining feature of your list and I'm particularly interested in him given that I tried to use a chariot prince myself (for a rather short period of time, I'll admit). I was just wondering if he or the rest of the list could be built differently to maximise his effectiveness or if he could have been used better. Of course the main thing is that you continue to give us reports with unusual lists. :)

_________________
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:28 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
It's a soft list Eli. Not a terrible one because it has World Dragon and the Frostheart plus I've at least tried to make the elements work together. But there's no way on earth I would run it if I had a free choice of models.

Building The List

Start with the Core. The Spears did very little all tournament, though at least they kept points (I'll get back to this!) fairly well. The Helms were vaguely useful, though if I could I'd have upgraded them to 2+ save and dropped command. The Archers were OK, the LSG slightly worse but not terrible (they'd have been Archers if I had the models). I feel there are basically two ways (MSU cav is a third I guess) to go with Core. First option is to go Archer-heavy, this fits well with infantry lists. The second option is Helm Bus. This lets you use Core points to build aggression. I want to play a list that keeps the option to attack but I don't have the models for a bus. This is bad because I have to spend precious non-Core points on less efficient units like Dragon Princes.

I actually sought advice from Seredain before this event and he counselled dropping the eagles for RBT. This is sound advice vs the kind of flyer-heavy lists that are cutting edge now but I knew I'd need my eagles against the armies I expected to face at Ill Blood. Four RBT are a staple of most competitive lists. To some extent my forced Core helps here (20 shots are often useful) but Core shooting plus 2 RBT is not as good as 4 RBT.

In all, the Frostheart and World Dragon Swordmasters are a decent non-Core investment, as are the other Rares, given my meta. After the compromise spend of the DP's, that leaves just under 800pts. I need a BSB. The Archmage is a compromise buy to combine acceptable defence with passable offense. That leaves just over 300 pts. I want Ld10 and relying on Standard of Discipline is unattractively static for a list that wants to go forwards. I also have a gap in my shooting. Thirdly, I need more fast attack strength, ideally with the option for S7 attacks.

I considered an Anointed on foot. But the only condition he meets is the S7. I looked at Tyrion but if he gets locked in combat with a fireproof target, that's bad news. I pondered a Cavalry Prince but with no bus, this is dodgy vs artillery. You can play around with Charmed Shield and Golden Crown but I still don't trust it. That leaves the Chariot Prince, more or less. Far from efficient but the best fit I have. He struggles to kill characters but at least has decent survivability and tricks like the OTS.

I too have an aversion to building an army around points denial. But if you're unable to build as aggressively as you'd like, it makes sense to grab as many side-benefits as you can. If I have to take Spears, I'll at least do my best to keep them alive. Being able to either engage or not as a situation calls for is a strength of the Chariot Prince. Yes he exerts charge threat and that inhibits enemy aggression, which just fits in with the 'attack if I can' strategy, built around the more heavyweight units.

Thanks for the interest. I do enjoy using this guy but I am the kind of player who desires all elements of a list working together at max efficiency. The loss of Talisman of Loec nerfs his killing power severely, such that I don't think I could justify him if I had free choice of models. It would be Cavalry Prince for sure. But I have a similarly outré set-up with my WE Stag Lord and he at least is a real threat to enemy characters.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:22 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
Sound The Horns!

Image

With thanks to Seredain. So 9th Age. A whole new ruleset, a whole new swathe of army books. Somewhat cautiously, I read it, I checked a lot of things and decided the Chariot Prince would ride again. I've only read a few of the books (Daemons, Warriors etc) but I have a game lined up this Saturday against my usual opponent Thomas, a strong Wood Elf player. He will of course be using the new Sylvan Elves list. Intelligence from Ferny suggests these are very strong. While I hope to be competitive, this game will mostly be about learning. As is standard in 9th Age, we will be playing open lists, so here is mine (written for all-comers) already forwarded to my opponent:

Prince, Horse Chariot, Dr/Armour, GW, Reaver Bow, Lucky Shield, 4+ Regen, Trickster's Talis.
Archmage, Lvl 4 White Magic, Book of Wizard Tower, 4+ Ward.
BSB, Mage Prince (White Magic), Lion Fur, HA, Sh, Dragonhelm, Luckstone, Scroll.

20 Coastal Guard, FC, Flame Banner.
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
5 Heavy Cavalry, FC, Gleaming Pennant.

14 Swordmasters, FC, Dragon banner.
2 Bolt Shooters, Repeating
Great Eagle.

Ice Phoenix.

1998 pts

Characters

Chariot Prince uses something close to my set-up of old. Reaver Bow is as in the 8th army book and the new high magic has two spells (Hand and Phoenix) that can buff it. I went for Regen rather than 4+ Ward firstly because I wanted the latter for my Archmage. But also because Regen doesn't suffer re-rolls from Holy Attacks. Flaming Attacks are not an issue because of dragon armour. Lethal Strike ignores both but nothing seems watertight in 9th Age. DA prevents Lion Fur which is a shame, given the Prince's dodgy armour save but on balance (2++ is golden vs Flaming cannons and such) I prefer DA. I'm hedging my bets still with Lucky Shield, I'll see how cannons go. Great Weapon loses the +1 to hit from Lightning Reflexes but all hail Trickster's Talisman!

The new high magic has come in for some stick but I feel there are some decent synergies, so will try it out. 24" range on the signature MM is welcome. I really like the +1 S on boosted Phoenix Rises and it's still cheap to cast. 5-dicing spells looks potentially lethal now, so I'm glad of the reduced casting cost on Cataclysm. Even at S3 the RIP should be excellent. The old Attribute is gone but there's a spell that does this now, useful option. The Book received a nerf but I still like the potential.

I decided pretty quickly to go for Mage Prince on my foot BSB. This helps my AM's spell selection, boosts Channelling and gives me double MM if I want it. I currently feel a scroll is a must-take, especially since it can stop IF now. This frees up the AM to carry Book. The trade-off is slightly dodgy defence on the BSB (2+ AS with one re-roll) and no real offensive power. I'll see how it goes.

Core

Coastal Guard have a lot going for them. This unit of 20 will probably bunker the AM and BSB most of the time. Quick to Fire helps in many ways, in particular dovetailing with Swift Reforms to switch between shooting and fighting formations. The unit really benefits from Hand. Weapons Master gives the Parry option, love it! Flaming banner gives me a Regen counter. I considered a larger unit of Spears with Heavy Armour but want to test the riskier option.

Archers are basic but are always useful against elves and for chaff-clearing etc.. Heavy Cavalry are again just generally useful support Core. The increased cost of 'barding' makes running them without reasonable. Gleaming pennant looks like a decent 5pts.

Special

Swordmasters lost the third rank fighting. To get this now, they have to Horde, which I believe is better done with Lions. Yes they have dragon banner but I still feel templates will hammer such a unit. I've gone for 14. With their +1 to hit this unit can still cause a lot of pain, while not carrying a non-fighting 3rd rank. Having had much joy from the 5+ Ward spell in the 7th edition book I love the new dragon banner. The resulting unit is the main reason I'm back playing High Elves. Sure the enemy can persecute it but 262 points is not game-breaking.

I suspect RBT remain vital for an army with infantry. I want to multi-shoot elves and I sure as hell want to single bolt big flyers etc.. Board control is king. Being in Special gives the option of taking a third, which I may go for in time. I'm taking a single eagle for the usual reasons. Time will tell how many redirectors are required.

Rare

I have first-hand experience of the power of a Frost Phoenix. They took a nerf to S and T (and a price cut) but still look promising to me. Blizzard Aura now hurts Initiative as well, which is important, given the end of ASF. No more S6 Thunderstomping but an extra Attack leaves them respectable, especially vs T3 elves and such. They only Fly 8" now but this isn't bad.

So overall I have decent shooting and a nice magic phase with some useful combat elements. I suspect I may need to beef up that side of things, we shall see. The army is definitely closer to the MMU/MSU approach of old, which I like. In time I'll need to expand to 2400, so dragon princes, lions and that 3rd RBT are under consideration. I expect the game will yield much to ponder!

:)

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:58 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6486
Location: The city of Spires
Interesting list. It's great to see Sea Guard appearing. I love the concept of the unit, but they never really delivered on their promise in 7th / 8th. Let's see how it goes in 9th :)

As for unit / armylist considerations, would you also consider the chariots as support units. They've changed considerably in 9th and could offer some interesting synergies with the prince perhaps. It would move the list from combined arms to a more extreme and aggressive combat shock list. But it could be interesting to see how they do. The RBT could be mounted on chariots, the lion chariot reads too good to be true (30 points reduction and extra abilities?) and potentially vanguarding tyranocs.

Of course, it would be tough to find the points to get one or more of them in, especially at 2000pts. But it's something I would consider if I was running a chariot prince. But then, I like running chariots as support units in a combined arms / infantry list.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:35 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
Well Rod, Coastal Guard come with a strong reputation. Quick to Fire, Ambush, Magic Std (Spears and Archers can't take one) are all good.

Prince of Spires wrote:
It would move the list from combined arms

Heresy!

:)

It's an interesting idea but TBH I haven't a clue how it would work out. The Chariot Prince seems able to join units now so buddying-up with other chariots makes sense. I dunno though, as the only guy with a chariot, he stands out! Milliardo used to run an interesting list with LSG, 2x14 White Lions and 2 Lion Chariots. In some ways I think 9th Age HE armies might have more in common with those before the 8th edition army book.

Here was the list Thomas brought:

Forest Prince - Mirror spear, armour of destiny, strength potion, kindred of forest guardians, starlight arrows - 268

Ancient Treant - level 4 wild, aspect of entwined roots, dispell scroll - 480

Treefolk Elder - BSB, aspect of clinging vine - 180

19 Forest Guardians - kings guard, full command, forest banner, innate defence 6+ - 340

2x10 grove guard - musician, trueshot - 2x150

5 treefolk - champion - 230

2x5 pathfinders - 2x100

total: 1998

How does this match up against mine?

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:14 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
Match Up

Funnily enough, I actually have more shooting than the Sylvan Elves, though what Thomas has is quality. The real difference though is in the magic, as he pointed out mid-game. I not only have a second mage, I have the Book too. White Magic complements my army and emphasises it's power at range, while Thomas' Lore would arguably be better if he had more cavalry. I have several spells each turn that can hurt, while I only have to worry about two say, most turns.

Against this, Thomas has three fighting units I need to watch out for. The King's Guard are good but they die hard to Swordmasters because the latter strike first. The Lord complicates things though. He has a 2+ AS and a 4+ Ward. He strikes at I8 with 5 attacks, S6 on the round he drinks his Potion. If he kills, his Spear gives -1 to hit his unit. Multiple Wounds (2) makes him a big danger to my characters. This unit is vulnerable to my shooting and magic. The Treefolk with +1 Strength are a real threat. I struggle to shoot them down and they are a match for the Swordmasters. Even the Wizard Treeman is dangerous with Thunderstomp and his Crush Attack can do serious damage to my Prince and Phoenix. Enough shooting will take him down but I may not be free to concentrate that fire on him.

Thomas has five deployment drops, I have eight. That means he is likely to get first turn unless I choose to deploy masses of units at once, which I am not keen on. I was more focused on seeing where his units would go. I had a general plan to deploy my infantry somewhat diagonally from his combat troops. This would hopefully buy me time to weaken the King's Guard at range. The Swordmasters (supported by the Prince and Phoenix) would hopefully engage his advancing units one at a time, protecting the Coastal Guard who would be off to one side.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:55 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6486
Location: The city of Spires
Curious to see how your game turned out. It's different armystyles running into each other. I'm guess the match comes down to army synergy and inter-unit support. Few units in either army are strong enough to go it alone. So, the army that manages to support their units best comes out on top.

As for magic, in my experience the strongest magic phase is that where you can force your opponent to make tough choices or only leave bad choices for him to make. Given that your opponent can dispel most spells in your magic phase except for one or two. having multiple useful spells greatly increases the efficiency of a magic phase. And it can also force the use of a scroll earlier in the game, which is another advantage for when you really need to get a spell cast late game.

Multiple drops is both an advantage and a disadvantage. As SM has shown repeatedly with his MSU lists, having many drops increases your flexibility and leaves your opponent guessing longer. The downside is of course that your opponent has a better chance of going first.

Regarding the chariot list, I can only theoryhammer how it would work out. My feeling is that it will lead to more polarized matchups. It's a type of list that can hit very hard on the charge, but has little staying power. A bit like a dragon / monstermash list, except with more baskets to hold the eggs and without the super-aggressive flying lizard. If it works out then it can run over opponents. If it doesn't, it can fall apart fast.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:30 pm 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4471
Location: On the path of an outcast
May I ask for some bigger pictures? these models are absolutely old school classics and they need to be shown properly! I love the shields in particular! =D>

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:37 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
Prince of Spires wrote:
As for magic, in my experience the strongest magic phase is that where you can force your opponent to make tough choices or only leave bad choices for him to make. Given that your opponent can dispel most spells in your magic phase except for one or two. having multiple useful spells greatly increases the efficiency of a magic phase. And it can also force the use of a scroll earlier in the game, which is another advantage for when you really need to get a spell cast late game.

I agree Rod and the differences with the 9th Age magic system accentuate this. 5 dice is the most you can throw at a spell and Miscasting on 5 dice can be horrific. Even 4 dice is dangerous. The 5-die cap of course means your opponent is reasonably likely to be able to stop a particular spell because there is no cap on how many DD he can throw at it. Unless Winds are low, which might see a Dispel Scroll coming out for example.

High Magic has always been strong at early-game pressure. Multiple casts give the opponent difficult choices to make. This remains true in 9th Age. 'Beasts' by contrast is a Lore where in 8th edition you might well want to throw all your dice at a boosted Amber Spear or Savage Beast. In 9th Age this is a less attractive option.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Multiple drops is both an advantage and a disadvantage. As SM has shown repeatedly with his MSU lists, having many drops increases your flexibility and leaves your opponent guessing longer. The downside is of course that your opponent has a better chance of going first.

Just so. This is also demonstrated in Seredain's early 8th edition games:

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=33584&p=704115#p704115

Interestingly, he moved to fewer units with his 8th edition HE book lists and less reliance on out-deploying his enemy. Often because, he told me, enemy lists would have even more drops than his (Orcs and Goblins are a good example). In this environment he preferred to rely on a set deployment which could benefit more from hopefully winning first turn.

Personally, I have always been happier the more units I have and generally preferred to see where my opponent is deploying first, as opposed to wanting to go first. Swordmaster's armies are pretty much the logical conclusion of this, though I like to also include some medium-sized units, which reduces the effect somewhat.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
May I ask for some bigger pictures? these models are absolutely old school classics and they need to be shown properly! I love the shields in particular!

Thanks dude!

:)

I'll see what I can do, probably with individual unit shots. The painting isn't amazing but with models like these it is harder to go wrong! The first photo was taken using my tablet camera, which isn't great. The two below are via my phone camera, again pretty primitive. I'm getting another phone soon with a slightly better camera but it still won't be awesome. The shields are from the Lord of the Rings range. I like them because they have a strongly Roman look.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:49 pm 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4471
Location: On the path of an outcast
Just noticed the comment about multiple drops in deployment phase. It might be worth checking but if nothing changes 9th Age has the option to place more than one unit during the deployment round. You could, in fact, place entire army before your opponent and benefit from that. Every unit by which your opponent out deployed you was +1 for first turn roll. It was possible then to get a guarantee of a first turn.

At the same time, knowing you will be second may be beneficial too. First, you deploy accordingly. For example, no risky vanguard moves forward or even redeploying such regiments to safety. Second, if you play with secondary objectives, sometimes having last turn may be helpful in securing them too.

Looking forward to some close ups! :)

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:12 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
We had agreed to play Classic (Battle Line) deployment with no Secondary Objectives because this was my first game of 9th Age and Thomas's second, for simplicity. Thomas won the roll-off for sides and chose the one with a building in the centre of it's deployment zone.

Spell Generation

Thomas rolled up The Beast Within (Wildform), Redwood Shaft (Amber Spear), Curse of the Wild Wood (Curse of Anraheir) and Monstrous Transformation (Transformation of Kadon) from the Path of Wilderness (Lore of Beasts). He'd rolled a double and went for Transformation in preference to Swarm of Insects (Flock of Doom). I believe the latter would have been better. This was elf v elf and pressure at range is especially important.

I rolled Blessing of Amhar, the spell which gives +1 to Ward saves on Harrek, my BSB. I swapped it for Luminous Bolts (Soul Quench) because I fancied double MM vs Sylvan Elves. I also feel Phoenix Rises (Apotheosis) and Guiding Hand (Hand of Glory) are good spells for him because of the cheap casting costs. Thomas suggested rolling the Archmage's spells first as a way of achieving these, a good point.

Mithan the Archmage got Luminous Bolts, Phoenix Rises, Guiding Hand and Cataclysm (Fiery Convocation). I was happy with these because I had juicy targets for Cataclysm in the King's Guard and Guiding Hand (BS) in the Coastal Guard. I was looking forward to seeing what Phoenix Rises could do.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:39 pm 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4471
Location: On the path of an outcast
Well, even without secondary objectives, the rules for deploying one or more units in a single go may affect the battle plans.

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:55 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
I agree SM.

Deployment

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Just noticed the comment about multiple drops in deployment phase. It might be worth checking but if nothing changes 9th Age has the option to place more than one unit during the deployment round. You could, in fact, place entire army before your opponent and benefit from that. Every unit by which your opponent out deployed you was +1 for first turn roll. It was possible then to get a guarantee of a first turn.

This is very true and in fact I could have all but guaranteed first turn by simply deploying my entire army immediately (I got first 'drop' because Thomas had chosen sides). I suppose this might diminish the advantages of having fewer drops (because your opponent can always choose to drop everything in one 'step' and go for first turn) and emphasise the plusses of many (because the guy with fewer units can't force his opponent to commit any faster than he wants to!).

Thomas is of the opinion that the option to deploy multiple units in one 'drop' should be limited to three say, to reduce it's impact. I began by placing my Eagle behind a central hill and he in fact countered by putting three units down fairly centrally. I struggle to remember the exact order but he had soon completed his dispositions, leaving me to put multiple units down afterwards.

The following pictures hopefully give an idea. I apologise that these are the only shots I took but in fact battlefield photos are a new world to me and I did not want to slow this game down further (learning game of course). The first shows the left side of the battlefield ( from my viewpoint):

Image

On the extreme left you can just see the edge of a hill. I deployed my Heavy Cavalry ( Helms) to the left of this. To the right of the hill are the Coastal Guard with infantry characters. Then the Chariot Prince, then the Swordmasters (hill to their right) with Ice Phoenix behind. On Thomas' side you can see a large hill centre-left on which a unit of Trueflight Grove Guard is perched. To their right (my PoV) a unit of Pathfinders (Waywatchers). The building is visible to their right and the second unit of Trueflight occupied it. A small patch of Impassible is in front of the house. To it's right you can make out the King's Guard (with Lord). The terrain in front of them is in fact a (rather bare) wood.

Image

This second picture shows the right flank. You can just make out the right edge of the central hill visible in the last photo. To the right of this went my Archers. The Eagle behind the hill is not visible. My RBT are on the baseline towards the right. You can see the second unit of Pathfinders between one of these and the water feature. In the top left corner of the shot you can see the King's Guard and wood from the last image. To their right are the Treefolk (with BSB). The Treeman is just visible behind the tree-filled wood, there is a wall in front.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:57 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
I was happy with these dispositions. I'd achieved the 'diagonal' deployment I was after, meaning the Sylvan Elf combat units faced a long trek to anything meaningful in the face of my superior ranged power. The nearest were the King's Guard and those I felt I could handle. Had the Tree Spirits gone down centrally, say where the Pathfinders were, things would have been tougher for me. If I'd made a mistake it was perhaps in not inhibiting Pathfinder scouting on my right flank. Thomas and I discussed the possibility of both units hunting my RBT early, which could have been difficult.

Turn One

Thomas duly got first turn. His shooters stayed put, with the exception of the Scouting Pathfinders, who closed to 'can't miss' charge range. The King's Guard, Treefolk and Ancient began the long march across the field. I don't remember magic achieving much and shooting only took two models off both the Swordmasters and the Archers, neither enough to force a Panic test. In particular, Poisoned arrows failed to damage my RBT.

In response, I marched the Heavy Cavalry up my left flank to threaten the Trueflight on their hill. The Coastal Guard edged forwards into bow and spell range. Chariot Prince and Swordmasters wheeled a little to face the advancing King's Guard. My Archers took advantage of Martial Discipline to safely execute a Swift Reform and target the Pathfinders. Magic saw Cataclysm on the King's Guard scrolled and Guiding Hand go up on the CG, improving their BS to 6. This paid off quickly as they shot six models off the hill-based Trueflight. Two of the central Pathfinders went down to the Chariot Prince. Although the Archers missed on my right, the RBT surgically removed all five Pathfinders.

Turn Two

On the hill, the Trueflight executed a Swift Reform to target the Heavy Cavalry. Pathfinders and the other Trueflight held station. The King's Guard marched into charge range of the Swordmasters. The Tree Spirits continued to trudge forwards, the Ancient now into long charge range of my shooters on the right. Magic saw Curse hit my Swordmasters, inhibiting a possible charge on the King's Guard who were also buffed with The Beast Within. Shooting put a single wound on the Chariot Prince and killed three Archers, who passed Panic.

The Heavy Cavalry failed a long charge into the Trueflight but Stand and Shoot was ineffective. Coastal Guard Swift Reformed, Chariot Prince and Swordmasters backed off. This effectively put them out of charge reach again. I marched the half-strength Archers up to redirect the Ancient. Four-diced Cataclysm went off IF on the KG but cost me two levels. It only killed one guy but the RIP stuck. Shooting took both Trueflight and Pathfinders down to a single model.

Turn Three

The King's Guard pressed on, backed up by the Treefolk. The Ancient charged the Archers. Lacking cards for the new spells, we both forgot Cataclysm was active on the KG until Thomas had seen his first cast scrolled and had thrown his remaining dice. I offered to replay the phase but instead Thomas retracted his second cast and threw those dice at the RIP. It remained and killed six KG. SE shooting did little but the Ancient destroyed the Archers. A long Overrun took the Ancient out of charge arc of the RBT.

Heavy Cavalry charged the lone archer who fled off the hill and out of sight. Thomas claimed this meant an automatic failed charge, which surprised me but the dice were too low anyway. Swordmasters and Chariot Prince charged the much-reduced KG. The Eagle blocked off the Treefolk and the Phoenix flew behind the enemy. Magic saw IF Phoenix Rises on the Chariot Prince, costing me another level. A well-aimed bolt put three wounds on the Ancient. The odds were against the KG but the dice hammered this home, they were wiped out.

Turn Four

The Treefolk charged the Eagle while the Ancient moved onto the central hill in support. Red Shaft was dispelled but I believe Curse hit the Swordmasters. The untouched Trueflight in the tower shot a couple of Heavy Cavalry down, Panic was passed. Enough wounds were inflicted and the Eagle died, the Treefolk facing the Swordmasters with their Post Combat Pivot.

The Heavy Cavalry galloped across the hill. With Curse up, the Swordmasters held and prepared to receive a charge, the Chariot Prince moving to threaten a flank charge in support. The Phoenix flew across to block off the Ancient. A magic missile killed a couple of Trueflight. Shooting performed again, putting the required three wounds on the Ancient to kill him.

Turn Five

The Treefolk charged the Swordmasters. No magic of course now and shooting was ineffective. Combat was bloody with several wounds on each side, the Treefolk winning by two. Martial Discipline rendered the Fear check a formality but I believe we forgot the -1 to Ld. Not sure if that should have reduced the borrowed Ld 10 to 9. I believe the Swordmasters would have passed anyway (with the BSB re-roll) but I'm not certain.

Heavy Cavalry charged the lone Trueflight, who held. Chariot Prince charged the flank of the Treefolk. This was controversial because I couldn't close the door. We diced it and the charge went in, though the game was probably up by this stage in any case. Shooting and magic chipped away at the Trueflight in the building. The Treefolk lost combat and broke, being run down, whilst the Heavy Cavalry killed the lone archer.

Turn Six

Things were pretty much done. A bit of magic and shooting on both sides achieved little. I'd lost the Eagle and the Archers while only the Trueflight and a single Pathfinder remained of the Sylvan Elves.

20-0 (or thereabouts)

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:37 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
Debrief

So that went better than I expected! In retrospect this is probably a difficult match-up for the Sylvan Elves. My army looks almost tailor-made to fight Thomas's. The King's Guard in particular look too vulnerable where the enemy is stronger at range. As Thomas pointed out, several army books have little or no shooting and against those the KG look much better.

In terms of gameplay, I've already pointed out the trouble the Treefolk would have caused me, had they been deployed more centrally. In my experience relatively slow combat units need to go down either in the middle or only after good targets elsewhere have been deployed by your opponent. I don't think either of us made any especially good or bad moves during the game, it was already difficult for the SE's. Not dispelling Cataclysm hurt the KG but I'm not sure it would have changed the result.

At first glance Martial Discipline looks underwhelming but if you have multiple units, several of which shoot, it's damn useful. Risking a Swift Reform is an easier decision with MD in play. It's also good vs Fear (better now) and Terror for example. I was pleased with the new high magic, though the real test will come against armies with tougher targets. The Swordmasters are back to blender status, very much like early 8th.

Overall, 9th Age seems slightly more complex than 8th but it is more ambitious, seeking to do without FAQ's. It played pretty well. We managed to forget several of the new rules however. Amazingly, we totally forgot the Attributes! We forgot that IF simply adds to the casting total now. I did remember Post Combat Pivots though for example. This was always going to happen. Live and learn!

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:54 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
May I ask for some bigger pictures?


Silver Helms

Image

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:10 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6486
Location: The city of Spires
Congrats on the result. It does read a little as if a lot about the battle was already achieved during deployment. Not to say that the rest didn't matter of course. I mean that it reads like you out-deployed your opponent and managed to set up the 'natural' matchups in your favor. And you then managed to capitalize on it by playing slightly defensive where it mattered to make the most of your ranged superiority.

It does read like it's simply a new edition of WH, with all the learning moments that brings. I do wonder if the complexity will be scaled back in later 'editions'. At the moment, the game seems to be created not only by experienced and active players, but also for them. Not necessarily a bad thing of course. But experienced players are often more likely to pick a more complex set of rules when creating an effect. Which can make it hard for newer players entering the hobby. There is something to be said for elegant and easy (which is probably the hardest to achieve...)

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:16 pm 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4471
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi SA!

I am still behind with the reading of your blog but I promise I will get back to it!

Thanks a lot for the picture. Boy, look how much the miniatures changed! Although back then it might stir your imagination more :) As I said I absolutely love the shields! I also wonder what are the reactions of your opponents. Some of them might be younger than these miniatures :D

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:29 pm 
Offline
Master of Brushes
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:41 pm
Posts: 1190
Location: Poznan/Hannover
When I look at 5th ed Silver Helm I call them oldschool already.
But you, sir, you have a REAL oldschool army :) :)

_________________
Image

Galharen's painting blog

The winged hussar host - army blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:53 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
Thanks guys.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Congrats on the result. It does read a little as if a lot about the battle was already achieved during deployment. Not to say that the rest didn't matter of course. I mean that it reads like you out-deployed your opponent and managed to set up the 'natural' matchups in your favor. And you then managed to capitalize on it by playing slightly defensive where it mattered to make the most of your ranged superiority.

I'd agree with this. Maybe if Thomas had had a ton of shooting or some fast combat units he could have made first turn pay. But lacking this, having fewer drops meant a big risk of getting out-deployed. As said, the tree spirits going down in the centre would have posed more questions.

Prince of Spires wrote:
It does read like it's simply a new edition of WH, with all the learning moments that brings. I do wonder if the complexity will be scaled back in later 'editions'. At the moment, the game seems to be created not only by experienced and active players, but also for them. Not necessarily a bad thing of course. But experienced players are often more likely to pick a more complex set of rules when creating an effect. Which can make it hard for newer players entering the hobby. There is something to be said for elegant and easy (which is probably the hardest to achieve...)

I think fixing the rules for a certain period will really help to make 9th Age more accessable. As I understand it, the latest updates will hold until April at least. If this could then be fixed for a year say, that would work fine.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Thanks a lot for the picture. Boy, look how much the miniatures changed! Although back then it might stir your imagination more As I said I absolutely love the shields! I also wonder what are the reactions of your opponents. Some of them might be younger than these miniatures

You're welcome SM. I sometimes get guys come and talk to me about the army, often dudes who are really into painting and modelling. There is a reasonable amount of conversion work in this unit. The shields are from Eorl the Young in LOTR range. The spears come from infantry models of the same range as these cavalry. The standard and horn are loose items that you got as accessories with the cavalry models, they had to be modelled on with a little putty. I would estimate 75% of the army is converted in some way, not for fun but simply to get something playable under the army list!

Galharen wrote:
When I look at 5th ed Silver Helm I call them oldschool already.
But you, sir, you have a REAL oldschool army

Yeah, it's funny to realise now how long ago those 5th edition models came out Galharen! I actually have some of the 'Eastern' looking HE range from 2nd edition and of the Tom Meier Ral Partha range ('Tolkien' looking) produced under licence with 1st. These cavalry are from the 3rd edition range of course, by Jes Goodwin. Many of his models in other ranges (original Harlequins, some BB stuff etc) look similar. My Wood Elf army is from the same range, it was a composite 'elf' thing, I simply used the more armoured models for HE's and the others for WE's.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:27 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6486
Location: The city of Spires
SpellArcher wrote:
Yeah, it's funny to realise now how long ago those 5th edition models came out Galharen! I actually have some of the 'Eastern' looking HE range from 2nd edition and of the Tom Meier Ral Partha range ('Tolkien' looking) produced under licence with 1st. These cavalry are from the 3rd edition range of course, by Jes Goodwin. Many of his models in other ranges (original Harlequins, some BB stuff etc) look similar. My Wood Elf army is from the same range, it was a composite 'elf' thing, I simply used the more armoured models for HE's and the others for WE's.

This statement just calls for an army shot ;)

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:41 am 
Offline
Master of Brushes
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:41 pm
Posts: 1190
Location: Poznan/Hannover
Prince of Spires wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
Yeah, it's funny to realise now how long ago those 5th edition models came out Galharen! I actually have some of the 'Eastern' looking HE range from 2nd edition and of the Tom Meier Ral Partha range ('Tolkien' looking) produced under licence with 1st. These cavalry are from the 3rd edition range of course, by Jes Goodwin. Many of his models in other ranges (original Harlequins, some BB stuff etc) look similar. My Wood Elf army is from the same range, it was a composite 'elf' thing, I simply used the more armoured models for HE's and the others for WE's.

This statement just calls for an army shot ;)

Rod


+1 =D> :D

_________________
Image

Galharen's painting blog

The winged hussar host - army blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:29 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4471
Location: On the path of an outcast
So I keep telling SA :) I would just correct to plural, armies shots :D

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:38 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11711
Location: Otherworld
TBH guys, the 2nd edition models are largely unpainted, I inherited them many years ago. I have a painted unit of the Tom Meier cavalry but it's in a box somewhere. Hopefully I'll be able to dig it out at some point. Neither of these are part of my HE army, it's pretty much pure 3rd edition. I do have another unit shot for you:

Image

My Archers, the first unit (the Helms were the second) I made for the army. Slightly unusual in that there's no conversion work, it wasn't necessary. The command figures were sold in packs as such at the time, they are pretty standard for the range. I sometimes swap out the standard bearer. The archer models themselves are interesting as I believe they may be part of a proto-range slightly before the other models. They stand out somewhat because of their oversized longbows and slightly 'Roman' look.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 161 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group