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 Post subject: Chariot Prince Evolution
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Green Istari

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Ok, so following Swordmaster's excellent thread I thought I would try something similar. This is a thread about a labour-of-love figure-driven army made up mainly of 3rd edition models I'd been collecting for years. I'll be trying to make it stronger in the light of tourney experience as I go along.

First List

As taken to the SCGT in April 2011:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=35203

Prince, Chariot, DA, GW, Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Endurance, Loec.
Archmage (Lvl3), Seerstaff, Drain, Shield, Curse, Flames.
BSB, AoC, GP, GW.
Mage (Lvl1), Metal, Scroll, Skeinsliver.

12 Archers, LA, FC.
19 Spears, Champ, Music.
15 LSG, Shields, FC, Arcane Protection.

5 DP's, FC, Sorcery, Amulet of Light.
5 Helms, Std, Music.
5 Reavers, Bows not Spears, Std, Music.
5 Shadow Warriors

2 RBT
2 Eagles

2400pts

I was under no illusions that this was a strong list but as stated in my Battle Reports thread just couldn't settle on a list I was happy with and instead decided to try a few things out. Overall I did poorly, partly I believe due to the list and partly due to the player! Still, it gave me lots of pointers as to what I need to change.

Overall, the list lacked units that could take a charge and this hurt me. I was several times reduced to playing semi-avoidance with a list that wasn't built for it. I believe the list had too many characters and the units are too small. To some extent this is stylistic but it needs addressing. Detailed unit-by-unit analysis of performance below the current list.

Final Old Book List

As taken to Wandsworth Waargh in August 2012:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=40824

Prince, Chariot, GW, DA, Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Loec.
Archmage (Lvl3) High Magic, Silver Wand, Dragonbane Gem.
BSB, GW, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix.

10 Archers, Musician.
24 Spears, FC.
15 LSG, Shields, FC, Arcane Protection.

10 White Lions, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame, Gem of Courage.
14 Swordmasters, FC, Standard of Balance, Amulet of Light.
5 DP's, FC, Sorcery, Potion of Strength.
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician.

RBT
Eagle

2400pts

This is a much better list, because the units cooperate better and it has a lot more combat power.

Wandsworth Waargh, October 2011: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=37107
Wandsworth Waargh, January 2012: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=38181
Wandsworth Waargh, April 2012: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=39111

Tactica: Chariot Prince

Having trouble linking but please google 'tactica chariot prince' and it'll pop up!


Current 9th Age (Page 5 Onwards) List

Prince, Horse Chariot, Dr/Armour, GW, Reaver Bow, Lucky Shield, 4+ Regen, Trickster's Talis.
Archmage, Lvl 4 White Magic, Book of Wizard Tower, 4+ Ward.
BSB, Mage Prince (White Magic), Lion Fur, HA, Sh, Dragonhelm, Luckstone, Scroll.

20 Coastal Guard, FC, Flame Banner.
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
5 Heavy Cavalry, FC, Gleaming Pennant.

14 Swordmasters, FC, Dragon banner.
2 Bolt Shooters, Repeating
Great Eagle.

Ice Phoenix.

1998 pts

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Analysis of First List

Prince

In general this guy was inefficient. He contributed some useful shooting (that usually survived the game and could be put where I needed it) but this was not enough. The lack of a support unit that could advance to pin the enemy and threaten a combo-charge limited his opportunities. I lost him once when he got caught fighting Daemonettes solo. The leadership was useful but not awesomely so.

I will however keep him as he is the novelty pick amongst my characters and gives the list flavour. I think he will perform better with some elite infantry in the list, we shall see. When combo charges do come off they are very effective and the shooting and leadership are always nice to have. The flexibility of the chariot also means he can usually pick his fights, which is crucial.

Before the tournament Seredain advised me to put a 4+ Ward on him (I consider a Ward essential rather than a high AS because of the cannonball issue). He was right but I really wanted Loec and Dragon Armour and the 600pts Lords cap restricted me. Now I am going to take the 4+ and drop the other two. I may regret it but we shall see.

Archmage

This guy worked pretty well on the whole. Of course I had to give up the fourth level (down to the chariot!) but was still dispelling at +4 and still had enough spells for an effective phase. Taking High Magic meant I was going for multiple medium/small spells rather than a few big ones.

I took the Seerstaff which was fine in four of the games but in the last two I could really have done with Fury of Khaine. I didn't appreciate that Seer actually limits your flexibility compared to 7th edition and that in some games you are better off rolling for spells. So I'm proposing to take Silver Wand instead. I think with a Lvl3 you need it to give a good chance of getting the spell you are after. It's not a given but the odds are good.

The changes to both Lords mean I now have the points to take Guardian Phoenix on the AM. I took too many wounds from miscasts in the game and I want to address this. I've been tempted by Earthing Rod as I blew him up in one game but currently I think Silver Wand is more important. An alternative is to take a Scroll and Opal Amulet but the defence is obviously worse and again, I rate the improved spell selection more important. With only three spells there is too much chance of missing the one or two crucial ones.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:23 pm 
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BSB

This guy was pretty standard and did Ok for me. I think the list has insufficient elite infantry to try something like Comrade Igor's Flaming BSB, he needs to fight when necessary. I'm looking to put Guardian Phoenix on the Archmage so will probably go for Dawnstone instead. I'm a bit suspicious of attacks which will ignore AS so Opal Amulet and maybe Gem of Courage is an alternative. Overall though, Dawnstone must be stronger and I get a strong net effect if I can get Shield off on him and his accompanying Spears.

Mage

On paper this guy looked good and other players have done well with him. I just didn't play any armies with armour though, so offensively he was useless. His scroll and +2 were helpful in the Exploding Archmage game but if I just fail to dispel I will get +1 anyway so this will not usually be crucial. I've decided to drop him and am much happier with the resulting 3-character set-up. Skeinsliver was important in my last game but I may be able to find another home for it. The main issue I can see now is a Steam Tank but I will just have to improvise here.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Archers

These guys did reasonably well for me but I may drop the champion and the light armour to save points. I have the option of the Flaming banner but I don't think it gives enough on a small unit to be worth it overall.

Spears

Too small. I kind of suspected this but sometimes experience is the best teacher! The way this unit was decimated in games two and three have covinced me to up it to 24. This may still be too small but if I can make 24 work, I will.

LSG

A new unit for me and not terribly effective to be honest. The Archers shot better and the Sea Guard did badly in combat. I will keep it for now because it is at least a decent bunker for the Archmage. This was the purpose of Arcane Protection as he had no saving throw. He will now, so that standard is no longer necessary. I may in time swap the LSG out for more Archers but would need to solve the bunker problem if I do.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Dragon Princes

These poor guys! Too often they took charges or charged the wrong target, either through my bad play or because something in the list had to. 265 pts is a lot to give up, too. I've looked at cutting them to 180 (I don't like dropping a std when I've modelled it on) but something needs to carry the Banner of Sorcery.

I did look at dropping them completely but I think their mobile threat is too valuable for my style of list and I just like them. Must try harder!

Silver Helms

Good troops. Like the DP's they sometimes took one for the team. However, I found them very effective on the flank, where they could cut through light troops and threaten War Machines. I am a cavalry player and things like Swift Reform give lots of possibilities to them in 8th edition. So I'm resolved to keep at least two units to support my Prince.

More units to come when I get some time...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Only one mage at 2400 points, that's skirting danger, and he's only a lvl 3 wizard, unless that Prince is doing spectacular you should consider dropping him down to a noble. You haven't got a lot of shooting but what you have is good coverage, 48", 30", and 24". I'd drop the spears entirely and add more shooting, throw the BSB in with some elite infantry or get him a horse or another chariot. Wow this is a list with serious mobility, except those Shadow Warriors...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Yep, plenty of fat to trim in this list.
I think a level 3 is fine, kit for defence though, dips scroll or annulian crystal.
I like the rgoh on my bsb, who rides with helms and takes, shield, lance and luckstone with da.
Gives you a 2+ save backup caster which is nice.
I'd be tempted to swap out the scouts for helms and get them to combat unit status. Currently, you've got a lot of support units, but there isnt really anything to support. Hence, strengthen your cavalry, they can take the fight to the enemy and are fast.
Reavers are nice. I like the spears and bows though, means they're more flexible and threatening. However, they're pretty pricey. I'd drop them for a silver helm or 4
Chariot is cool, but I found out the hard way, that he really is a combat support unit. He's not worth his points if he's not tearing into cc to help out grinders like spear buses or pg.
I'd drop the bow and toughen him up for combat, or go rgoh and vambraces with mundane armour as more of an all rounder.
Banner pointless on lsg. I'd be tempted to swap them for spears and get a really decent size spear unit.
These guys negate steadfast while helms and bsbmage rack up kills with the chariot prince in multi charges.

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an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:38 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback guys!

Tiralya wrote:
Only one mage at 2400 points, that's skirting danger

It is but my philosophy is to take the minimum necessary to get the job done. This then leaves you points to cover other areas. I will test him in his new form and go from there.

Csjarrat wrote:
think a level 3 is fine, kit for defence though, dips scroll or annulian crystal

This is a fair point but my current thinking is that Silver Wand is necessary. I cannot afford to roll 1,3,6 and be stuck with those spells.

I've considered trying to field a Helm Bus but that's not what the list is about really. I firmly believe that MSU cavalry are viable but they need a particular unit to work around. There are advantages to having the BSB on foot. He tends to go more central which means better re-roll coverage. He also stiffens the Spear block, which may mean I can get away with fewer of these.

A chariot Noble is certainly viable but then something has to give in the magic items. Dropping the Ward is risky, as Charmed Shield is only a stopgap really. Dropping the Bow is better but then he loses flexibility and is still worse than the Prince in combat. I'm a big fan of the Bow because on the chariot it gives you an extra dimension that even RBT's don't. Yes you can head straight for combat and kit the Prince out for that but I am a multi-tasker. Radiant Gem I loved under 7th but now that I have the Lvl3 I always wanted I am no longer convinced it is necessary.

I'm still intrigued as to how people bunker their Archmages.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:56 pm 
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I like this thread a lot - I bought a Sleich toy elephant and am making him into a chariot, so I'm curious for any second hand advice on his use before I actually get to use him myself. A Chariot Prince has been one of those things I've just never gotten around to using.

I agree though with giving the Prince some ranged or magical ability to add to his versatility. There is a lot of sense in specializing an army or a unit towards a single idea, but I'm a firm believer in versatility, overlapping roles, and redundancies.

A similar example is the Prince on a Star Dragon. The obvious route is to gear him for close combat, but giving him a bow opens up a lot of other options. Since you don't really want them in combat by themselves against hordes, you may need to wait a turn for another unit to get into position for a charge.

Anyway, more on topic, I bunker my Archmage (also usually my general and armed with FR/ToS/SW) with my LSG block (usually 25 to 30 strong), along with the Standard of Discipline. The shorter range on the LSG doesn't matter since they're usually front and center anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:25 am 
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~Milliardo~ wrote:
I like this thread a lot -

Thank you!

~Milliardo~ wrote:
I agree though with giving the Prince some ranged or magical ability to add to his versatility. There is a lot of sense in specializing an army or a unit towards a single idea, but I'm a firm believer in versatility, overlapping roles, and redundancies.

I'm in no way saying that my approach is stronger than csjarrat's but it is clearly different. Nothing is set in stone, I may drop the Bow or even the Prince if experience leads me that way. It will be interesting finding out!

~Milliardo~ wrote:
Anyway, more on topic, I bunker my Archmage (also usually my general and armed with FR/ToS/SW) with my LSG block (usually 25 to 30 strong), along with the Standard of Discipline. The shorter range on the LSG doesn't matter since they're usually front and center anyway.

This looks good, as his survivability means you can commit the unit to combat if necessary. I am continuing with my unit of 15 as I have to hang back and I would want a larger unit to see combat. In extremis and with a Ward on the AM I could charge if I had to perhaps. I like Comrade Igor's 20-man Archer bunker but the 5+ save on the LSG is worth something I feel.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:31 am 
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Reavers

These were good. My delaying tactics (planting them about 7" in front of things to restrict marching) worked reasonably well and Vanguard I like a lot. In game 2 it was crucial to a wide outflanking maneouvre that was surprisingly effective. They can also fight better than Shadow Warriors of course.

That said, I am dropping them for now. The SW's are cheaper and I just have a feeling about keeping those in the list. I want my extra unit and to get it have to drop the Reavers and the Mage.

Shadow Warriors

Sadly rather ineffective so far, though the shooting was helpful sometimes and they diverted well once. Keeping them in because they are 80pts and I love them and will keep trying to make them work.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:42 am 
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RBT

These reflected what I have gathered about our artillery in 8th so far. Sometimes they die horribly and sometimes they are golden. I would probably keep them anyway because it feels right to have them but I think they are worth their place in my all-comers list.

Eagles

There are few things in Warhammer as satisfying as dropping a 50pt eagle in front of a Greater Daemon. Win!

The New Unit

15 White Lions, FC, Arcane Protection.

The list needs them. Maybe a bit small but I will try 15 and see if it works. Their job is not to break the enemy (that's what my horses are for!) but to take ground, pin him and set him up for the cavalry. Arcane Protection is not a popular pick as the top spells ignore saves. There are still plenty though (Scorch, Flames, Gateway, Bolt of Change, etc.) that don't and can wreck a unit. If I lose 5 models before combat I should hang on against most things, if I lose 8 I won't.

I have a unit of Swordmasters to paint up and if I put these in AP might not be necessary. I would love to unleash choppy death with them, particularly against Daemons! As the list stands though I only have room for one unit and WL with their survivability are favourite.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:51 am 
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The revised 2400pt list

Prince, Chariot, LA, GW, 4+ Ward, Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield.
Archmage (Lvl3), High Magic, Silver Wand, Guardian Phoenix.
BSB, AoC, GW, Dawnstone.

10 Archers, Standard, Music.
24 Spears, Champion, Music.
15 LSG, Shields, FC.

15 White Lions, FC, Arcane Protection.
5 DP's, Sorcery, Music.
5 Helms, Standard, Music.
5 Shadow Warriors

2 RBT
2 Eagles

Still very much a work in progress but clearly better than the original I feel. The Core is 24 points under. List as a whole is 13pts under. I'd like to put in the Skeinsliver if I can.

Thanks for reading, further comments and advice very welcome!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:13 am 
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What's the obsession with arcane protection banner? In all my games in 8th I've never received enough fireballs to make it worth the points. You'd be better off with more models I suspect.
Also, at 5 strong, there is nothing the helms can do better than dps, except be cheaper. I'd drop the banner and use those points free to upgrade them.

Also, why has the prince only got light armour? There is a common magic item that combines 4+ ward and heavy armour, so you always do that as it's cheaper. You'd lose the charmed shield, but cannons will ruin your day regardless of whether you take the shield or not.

As for magic, without some kind of way of shutting down a high roll on a number 6 spell, you're really leaving yourself open. I think sigil/dispel/shard/crystal would be better options here
I think picking a solid and easy to cast lore (with good sig spell) would be a better option than using the slot for the wand.
Lores like shadow, life and fire are so solid throughout that you'll roll spells that are useful, with the odd one that doesn't fit being the one you swap for the excellent sig spells.

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an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:18 am 
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I just recreated this in Army Builder and the lords are 10 points over, not sure if I did something wrong or something, but that +4 is coming from the vambraces of defence right? Your core is easily fixed with a banner or another two more Seaguard.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:24 pm 
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My Ward is the straight 4+ from the BRB.

The armies we play influence our picks I think. Having seen at first hand the damage Scorch can do to our infantry I think it essential to give the Lions additional protection. This spell will do more damage to them than Dwellers or Final Transmutation for example. I'm not saying Arcane Protection is a good pick per se but I want this unit to get to the enemy only slightly damaged and this 25pt banner helps.

Overall I agree on the Helms. My unit is 129 points and 5 DP's with musician are 160 but the latter are probably a better pick. It's down to models really, I use very old models and I only have so many of each type.

What happens when a cannonball hits the model? He rolls a 2+ to wound the Prince, I roll my 4+ Ward then he gets D6 damage. He has a decent chance at killing the Prince first time. I would much rather give up a pip of armour to give me a 2+ against this happening. The same cannonball has a good chance at killing the chariot, in which case I will run the Prince out into a nearby infantry unit, wrongfooting my opponent and losing almost nothing.

Fire I think is not flexible enough and does not deliver big damage. Shadow can but I dislike it for fluff reasons. It also lacks a unit buff and while great against low initiative enemies, it's damage spells are not so hot against I5 elves. Life I considered but fluff again and while it has great spells, it's a bit of a 'buff your elite infantry' Lore. Opponents always want to dispel Flames, which builds magic defence into the phase as does Drain. I'm sure I will miss the Scroll but I want High Magic. Top spells can hurt me but the list is built to minimise this.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:45 pm 
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fair enough,
fire is nice, as you can pin enemy units in place, grant your spears better odds at wounding anything, get free kills in CC from the cloak and have a range of damage spells to shut down enemy scouts/flyers/fast cav to allow you to dominate the movement phase like you need to with this kind of list.
life is useful for keeping your msu in the fight by using regrowth/attribute and T boosting spells, as its quite possible you'll lose VP's very quickly with this list otherwise.

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The armies we play influence our picks I think. Having seen at first hand the damage Scorch can do to our infantry I think it essential to give the Lions additional protection.


very true! i barely ever play skaven (lucky me) but did consider it for my empire halberdiers when gorks foot was re-introduced :-)

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an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:57 pm 
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I think Fire could be good with a specific army build and gameplan. I also forgot the template spell which could yield good damage. Not with my list though I think.

To be honest I use High Magic because I like it. Objectively Life and Shadow are stronger I think. It does seem to suit my build though and with a somewhat curtailed Archmage I may be better going for High than for the killing power of Shadow say. Shadow does of course have perhaps the best combat buff in the game! I was thinking defensively though, Shield is a little spell but on the right combat it makes a difference.

The spells which really frighten my Lions and against which Arcane Protection is no defence are Dreaded 13th and the Big Goblin Vortex. They are both 25+ though, so here Drain actually makes a difference, unlikely to go off without IF. I really like the way High Magic sometimes gives a little help in a tricky situation like this.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Something you might consider when using High Magic, which may seem obvious but is sometimes overlooked, is that the ward save from Shield of Saphery will combine with the Magic Resistance of your Banner against spell damage. Most people do seem generally unconcerned with shooting Magic Missiles these days, but I think against elves, they're still incredibly deadly and worthwhile, but with SoS and our MR items, you could really defend against them well if you were so inclined.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Why do you think the White Lions need protection from magic direct damage spells? I would guess those spells would target the Eagles, Shadow Warriors and your Archmage. Higher strength versions would target the cavalry.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:30 pm 
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Hi SpellArcher!

Great to see your army evolving and taking even more unique shape. You had some very good moments with it during recent tournament and I am sure you will get better with it soon! I will try to comment on every choice you made and who knows maybe it will be of some use to you too :)

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince, Chariot, LA, GW, 4+ Ward, Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield.

It is a very interesting character and definitely a centerpiece of your army. I like this set-up very much, he has all the protection he can get and is very versatile. He is also a centerpiece of your army so think about some nice modelling of special chariot as befits the Prince :)

SpellArcher wrote:
Archmage (Lvl3), High Magic, Silver Wand, Guardian Phoenix.

Another unusual set-up and the one I believe you make very good use of. I must also say that you got me thinking and I will probably take your example of having an Archmage with some kind of ward save. I really like the way you want to use High Magic, just wonder if you are going to choose specific spells according to the opponent or is it going to be the same set all the time.

SpellArcher wrote:
BSB, AoC, GW, Dawnstone.

I know you have no points for that now but a thought occured to me. What about BSB in a chariot too?

SpellArcher wrote:
10 Archers, Standard, Music.

Typical but very useful unit. Maybe not the heroes of the day in every battle but their are solid choice in general :)

SpellArcher wrote:
24 Spears, Champion, Music.

Not so long ago that was my chosen number for Spearelves. Now, I am not sure of 30 is enough :D You will see yourself in future battles but I am sure you know now how to use them to full effect.

SpellArcher wrote:
15 LSG, Shields, FC.

This is a unit I am going to pay special attention to. I was thinking at some stage about fielding small LSG units like this one as a support unit but had to give up this idea to be able to field Spearelves in proper numbers. But I would really like to learn how to use LSG effectively and maybe I could incorporate such unit in my army too (as models are simply great).

SpellArcher wrote:
15 White Lions, FC, Arcane Protection.

Great unit and in size which should be good enough. I really like Flame banner on them, I think they are the best unit for that. I understand your phobia :) bur I would re-think that little item. Maybe give Skeinsliver to Guardian too?

SpellArcher wrote:
5 DP's, Sorcery, Music.

Good and solid units as always. A pity it is a little expensive with magical banner but then somebody has to carry it to generate these extra dice :)

SpellArcher wrote:
5 Helms, Standard, Music.

I am sure it will be a very usefull unit, very versatile in terms of what missions it will be asigned. I simply got used to bigger units of Helms though and feel that they are a little too small. But then as I said it is just a habit of fielding bigger unit recently.

SpellArcher wrote:
5 Shadow Warriors

Curious about these guys too. I share your feelings about them and I wish you good luck with our only scouts :)

SpellArcher wrote:
2 RBT
2 Eagles

Good, reliable choices, nothing new can be added, although from time to time I come back to RBT issue. Do I really need them? Would I miss them? Maybe they are slowing me down? :)

Ok, just a few comments from my side. All the best in future battles! I am sure this topic will turn into a very interesting one, hopefully never ending story type :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:12 pm 
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Hey SA,

Excellent thread and tourney battle reps too - it's good to see you out on the field and I really enjoyed reading them! You've made some solid changes so far, the key one being the tendency to start growing your spearelf unit into something bigger. Since you're only relying on small cavalry units and chariots to win you combats (all units which won't have a full rank left after combat to help break steadfast), this makes the durable nature of your infantry units that much more important. A large column of spears is the cheapest way for you to throw in a serious number of ranks for your fast attack units to combine with. Honestly, since it's your only large block upon which you can rely for this role, I'd keep making it bigger. You could find the points by swapping out the seaguard for archers? The 15 white lions are nice.

I wouldn't necessarily take it myself but I appreciate your choice of the Banner of Arcane Protection. It's not as if magic missiles don't exist in this game - they do - and elves are particularly vulnerable to them. I guess it's just a meta-game thing. First game of 8th I ever played (HE vs HE), my opponent spent every turn chucking the large fireball at my units- and it was a pain in the arse! Milliardo makes a nice point about the MR possibilities of the Shield of Saphery- I hadn't thought of that before but it's worth remembering.

I understand that you're under model constraints (other have already pointed out that, if you're going to take units of 5 knights, they should typically be dragon princes), and that this will limit what you're able to change at the moment. In spite of this, from what I've seen, you made some good games out of this list. It was all a pleasure to read and I'm looking forward to your next reports.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:14 am 
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Thanks guys!

I knew Arcane Protection was going to cause trouble! It's all about the army balance and the role of the unit. It will be my only elite infantry pick and will be heading straight for the enemy, definately in advance of the other infantry and maybe of the cavalry too. I think he will either try to feed it chaff or kill it quick and given the good AS vs shooting, magic is a logical way to go. As said, it is not bad against the no save spells and there are very many that do allow them.

I take the point about spell types, Gateway and Bolt of Change are more likely to hit the DP's, unless the Lions are a more immediate threat to one of his units which is quite possible. Template spells like Scorch (how good is this spell?) and the Fire version are tailor-made for killing my unit of Lions though, these are the kind of things I'm building against. Obviously I'm happy if low-strength MM's go against my light troops but again, if you pressure your opponent with a unit he is likely to use all resources available to try and kill it.

I do indeed have an eye on the stacking potential of Shield, with this up the Lions will be very hard to hurt by normal means. I find though that it only goes so far against ranged attacks. Sometimes there is one unit you really want to protect but more often the enemy can simply target something else. The real use IMHO is in combat. Sure it can be dispelled but if you do your job right you have also cast Flames and perhaps something else that turn, giving the foe a real dispelling headache.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:35 am 
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You are all very likely right about the Spears but as said, I'm going to build brick by brick. I am not going to run 29 if 24 is working for me. I think the foot BSB will help here, we shall see.

Oh yes I'm going to tailor the magic! I have used the Seerstaff every game I've played with High Elves but the time has come to change it. I'm really looking forward to having the whole Lore to play with. With four rolls I can't depend on getting the exact spells I want but I'll have a pretty shrewd idea of what I need against each enemy. If I miss Flames for example I can probably improvise with Curse and Fury.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:51 pm 
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First, thanks for an excellent thread and wonderful reports! Please point out to me if I missed any of them in the BR summary thread!

Now, onto your revised list...

SpellArcher wrote:
The revised 2400pt list

Prince, Chariot, LA, GW, 4+ Ward, Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield.
Archmage (Lvl3), High Magic, Silver Wand, Guardian Phoenix.
BSB, AoC, GW, Dawnstone.


Prince - I guess he's ok. I'd do what I could to get him decent protection and the AM to level 4 with wand though. The AM is 270 points with this build - leaving 330 for the Prince. This essentially means 95 points for items, 55 if you deduct the Reaver Bow. It's a tough choice but in the end I believe you must consider what roles he'll usually be in. This is one of 3: he'll either be outshot, in which case he wants to get into CC asap. In these cases, you need to maximise your chances of getting into combat. Charmed Shield is very cheap for what it does here, as is the Golden Crown. If this is not the case, you will seriously outshoot your opponent, in which case you'll want to keep him out of CC as long as possible. In this case, protection doesn't matter. The last case is probably the most common: your opponent will throw him occasional fire here and there without any serious need for getting into / keeping out of CC.

For this reason, I'd suggest the lvl 4 am with wand and life magic. The Prince with GP / Charmed shield / great weapon / dragon armour. Even if you go with High Magic I believe this is a better approach as it spreads out your potential more while not lowering your Prince's potential by a huge amount (essentially you lower his ward save by 1).

SpellArcher wrote:
10 Archers, Standard, Music.
24 Spears, Champion, Music.
15 LSG, Shields, FC.


Drop the standard and musician on archers to shave points. Swap the Sea Guard for another min-unit of archers and spend the rest of your points on more spears. Counts-as models are accepted by most opponents until you can get the right ones.

SpellArcher wrote:
15 White Lions, FC, Arcane Protection.
5 DP's, Sorcery, Music.
5 Helms, Standard, Music.
5 Shadow Warriors


Drop the std/music on helms and make them DP's. Drop the DP music. Again, counts as is ok for most until you can get them right.

SpellArcher wrote:
2 RBT
2 Eagles


Solid, but I'd consider 3 RBT if you want to run High Magic, especially with my suggested lvl 4. Essentially, curse is as deadly as anything else, giving you great offensive potential and INSANE defense: he has to dispel curse, flames AND drain to avoid serious damage if his own magic is strong.

SpellArcher wrote:
Still very much a work in progress but clearly better than the original I feel. The Core is 24 points under. List as a whole is 13pts under. I'd like to put in the Skeinsliver if I can.

Thanks for reading, further comments and advice very welcome!


Best of luck, keep us updated!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:41 am 
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Thanks Curu, some telling points.

Unfortunately I've just discovered a big problem with my revised list, so it's back to the drawing board! I still have some lessons learned though, so I know roughly what I need to change.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:49 pm 
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hey spell archer i have only one suggestion for you, in my opinion i would just take the banner of sorcery off the dragon princes and give it to the white lions. I think everyone will target those as easy points. That's just what i think though


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:16 pm 
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That's another good point Dan, they certainly died a lot at the tourney. I actually had one guy ask me how many points were where! He wanted to know what to point his guns at! I have to say though I don't fully agree with the 'does a unit make it's points back' thing. If it lets your other units do their jobs better (White Lions maybe) that may not be so crucial.

Happily I've had a Good Idea that may let me field my revised list (or something very close) after all. It's going to involve a lot of converting though...

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:59 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
That's another good point Dan, they certainly died a lot at the tourney. I actually had one guy ask me how many points were where! He wanted to know what to point his guns at! I have to say though I don't fully agree with the 'does a unit make it's points back' thing. If it lets your other units do their jobs better (White Lions maybe) that may not be so crucial.

Happily I've had a Good Idea that may let me field my revised list (or something very close) after all. It's going to involve a lot of converting though...


I love these kinds of threads and have recently put one up myself ;) I can't wait to see what you have in mind, please post at least an early draft asap :D

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:16 am 
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Lists are awesome for discussion but battles prove points so much better SA, get your battle on, I want to read another battle report =P

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