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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 9:52 am 
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PM sent :)

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High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:03 pm 
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Waiting eagerly for the report 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:30 pm 
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We haven't played yet but if the time is set I will let you know :)

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:22 am 
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Please let us know if you need a peanut gallery strictly to observe and not fling dung. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:20 pm 
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Hi Jimmy!

Hopefully the game will prove to be entertaining for anybody! I am sure Galharen is the favorite in this game with his recent success at one of the biggest tournaments in Poland and with fast and hard hitting army to command! :)

But if things become boring or something like that I expect honesty from peanut gallery and will put on a special coat to avoid all these rotten tomatoes going my way :-P

Cheers!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:42 pm 
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Mirrors are always unpredictable, that's why please don't say who is in favour and who is not :D Some dice rolls can change everything is this matchup.
But I'm eager to play this game as my list struggles against MSU types of lists :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:18 pm 
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Why not? :)

First of all it is hardly a mirror match! Our armies are so different we could easily play different army books. Second, I am sure if I were to run a poll people would bet for your victory. I had a game against Star Dragon list and even without Silver Helm bus it was considered much stronger than mine to the point that the draw I got was a huge surprise.

This is not to say I am not going to put up a fight as I am also curious what I can do against this particular army list. So no need to pretend to be modest, you are HE after all with an army with a Caledor theme. :)

Cheers!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:24 pm 
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All part of SM's master strategy I would think. The psychological battle has begun! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:27 pm 
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Jedi mind tricks? Me? No way! :-P

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:40 pm 
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So next week?:)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:47 am 
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That's possible :)

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:28 am 
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So eventually we made it to find a good time for both of Us to play, so it means that two sons of Ulthuan will clash tomorrow, 11.06 at 7pm in central europe time (GMT+2 hours). Another bloody mirror game:))

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:33 pm 
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Yes! We will finally play against each other, I just wish we could do that in Real Life but then I would be too distracted with Galharen's beautiful army :)

I have already started a relevant topic in the Battle Reports section:

Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host

Cheers!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:12 am 
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Hi Swordmaster,

I'v been lurking here for a long time now, all I would like to thank you for inspiring me to try out an MSU army! It's been great and i'v been playing (casual) this style for nearly 1,5 years now. And thanks for the excellent to the point write ups of your army, units and general tactics. It's great to be able to look inside your mind during a battle and know why you did what you did! Saved me some trouble on the field of battle more than once! This thanks ofc extends to all the players contributing on this forum and helping you build your army through this thorough analysis ;)

I'm rather curious what you think about your current BSB griffon list? How do you think it performed? Especially the BSB griffon on it's own and in relation to the rest of the army. Did you find the 18" reroll bubble easier, or did it draw him back even more? Did he offer enough protection from the backfield in your mindset? What about games were he won't be able to hide? This ofc relates to the army you faced and the way you approached the game.

Happy gaming!
Talan-Alavia


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:38 am 
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Hi Talan-Alavia,

Thanks so much for your kind words! I really appreciate them, in particular that you also noticed a great contribution of all and every forum member that provided feedback and comments in this topic (as well as battle reports). I am sure that if I can say I became a better player it is thanks to their contribution and good will to participate in discussions.

I am very happy to know you enjoy the style and that you have been doing so for some time! Even more so that you could avoid mistakes I have made :)

I have played only two games with Griffon BSB so far but I really like it. It feels good to have 18" radius of influence for his Hold the Line! rule. I feel much safer having that. I also like his damage potential even if I didn't have much of a chance to try it much in both games. Although being able to comfortably destroy a demigryph or finish Elven prince to get the points for him and his Dragon were important factors too.

He does contribute to the back field or rear guard duties. He can be that reinforcements I always wanted to have, with his many attacks and fly ability he has a potential to fulfill that role.

His own protection will always be an issue and that is why I will have to make sure that when he attacks he survives too. That is why I think ASF on Griffon is so crucial. But if I face some cannons and no place to hide I will simply have to position him close to infantry so that in case he loses his mount he gains Look Out Sir! from nearby troops and can join them to perform the same duty as he has done so far.

I hope I will have more examples of his performance to show in the future!

Once again, many thanks for your kind words!

Happy gaming to you too! (and if you find time, you could provide some reports of your own as well!)

Cheers!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:16 pm 
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Hi guys,

I have recently posted some musings on what to do now since Warhammer as we know it is no longer officially supported:

Something Ends - Something Begins

In short, I decided to play 8th edition for casual games as long as I find the opponents, explore the Realms Beyond the Gates (i.e. Kings of War) and observe what is going to happen with fan based Warhammer, probably in the form of 9th Age. I also intend to keep painting and hopefully get back to Warmaster. With Warhammer: Total War announced I am sure I will try this one too!

I just need to decide how to proceed with this blog at the moment. Do you think it will be ok to mix KoW here (as I intend to write reports as usual and post them in BR section) or is it better to start a separate blog in relevant subsection?

Cheers!

P.S. I am really enjoying BSB on Griffon :)

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Any reports are good, especially yours, regardless of the system.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:40 pm 
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Agree on Elithmar... May I suggest Necromunda ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:50 pm 
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You are creating the best Necromunda (or skirmish based games) reports ever! I am afraid I am more of a armies games than skirmish games person. Expect KoW and maybe Warmaster at some stage too!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:31 pm 
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I feel you'd be fine posting your KoW experiences here SM.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:03 pm 
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Hi guys,

@ Elithmar

Many thanks for kind words! I really appreciate that!

@ SpellArcher

Very well, it might require some proper organizing in the first post but I think I should be able to do that. Cheers!

Kings of War - Humble Beginnings

Kings of War is one of the systems that people currently consider to start playing. I must admit I am hooked by the new rules simply because I like the games with square units. Don't know really why but skirmish systems do not appeal to me that much. I read the rules for KoW 2 and they seem much simpler but not too simple. I do think that the system is as the designers advertise it, easy to learn, hard to master. I think it is definitely worthy giving a try and I am currently in the process of coming up with some kind of an army list that I would like to try out.

There are a few basic self-imposed rules I wanted to follow in doing so. First, I wanted to try to transfer the army list I have at the moment into a new system. The reason is that I already have the models so playing games should not be a problem. Second, I want to transfer the concept of MSU as much as it is possible to do under these set of rules. After all, the designers also claim this game is won with superior deployment and careful movement, the concepts I was trying to emphasize in my games since I have started MSU few years ago.

I chose to use Elves of course but I have not explored the possibility to use allies yet as it might be the way to further support my idea for an army.

I also assume that whatever I learned in Warhammer may not be transferable directly and in some cases it might be a "bad habit" so to speak. I am fully prepared to keep trying though until I find the army I am comfortable with and that, hopefully, will resemble MSU style I like so much.

The composition of the armies in KoW evolves around Regiments and Hordes that unlock other elements that can be taken with the army. For the purpose of following the theme I don't intend to take hordes. I am aware they have significant advantages but I believe that it is possible to build a successful army without them. What makes the job more difficult, though, is that 2 regiments cost more than 1 horde and the scaling of cost and abilities is not linear.

This is the "first" draft I am still thinking about. As the typical size of the game in KoW seems to be 2000 points this is the limit I imposed as well:

Outcasts in Mantica - Army List

Stormwind Regiment with Elven Wine - 255
- Silverbreeze Troop - 145
- Silverbreeze Troop - 145
- Drakon Rider Lord - 160

Palace Guard Regiment - 150
- Palace Guard Troop - 105
- Stormwind Troop - 140
- Wizard with Banechant and Inspire - 110

Sea Guard Regiment - 170
- Hunters Troop - 135
- Archers Troop with Oil - 120
- BSB on Steed with Heal - 95

Sea Guard Regiment - 170
- Bolt Thrower - 90

This comes to the total of: 1990

Technically I have space for two more troops but definitely no points for that. In this army list I have 14 elements total which is important because in KoW every single war machine, character, monster and unit are deployed as a single drop. Let me first start with the description of the units:

Stormwind Cavalry - Elven heavy cavalry, faster than counterparts with M9. They have very good number of attacks (16) hit on 3+ with re-rolls of 1. They also have Thunderous Charge (2) rule which means they can do some proper damage. For example, if the enemy has defense 4+ (good infantry), meaning that normally the enemy needs 4+ to do damage, TC(2) improves that result by two and now you "wound" on 2+. However, TC bonus can be lost when cavalry is hindered which is easily achievable if it takes wounds in previous turn or has to charge through difficult terrain. It is also negated if the target unit has "phalanx" rule.

Elven wine is a magic item that costs 40 points and gives the unit "Nimble" special rule. In KoW the unit can move up to twice its movement allowance but can do it only in straight line. If you want to pivot, you can do it at any time during the move but it can be done once only and if you do it you can move only the normal movement. Nimble allows you to make one extra pivot (up to 90 degree each). It can be very helpful in getting in the position so while it is quite expensive for the items in KoW I want to see if it is worthy. Looks very good to me on paper.

Silverbrezze Cavalry - fast cavalry. They hit worse in combat than assault troops but have Nimble special rule as default. They also come with bows so that you can shoot and either keep softening the enemy troops or combine the effort with other regiments. They are not cheap though (especially when you consider playing at 2000) so they probably should not be used as sacrificial units that often. There is not such a thing as "flee" reaction in KoW so it is one of the areas where I think I will need to learn how to move and use them properly.

Palace Guard - These are elite infantry meaning they hit better than regular troops (3+), have better nerve value (slightly harder to rout = be destroyed) and in addition have Crushing Strength (1). That improves their chances to do damage (much like TC for cavalry) but is not negated by phalanx. They don't have many attacks but hitting on 3+ with re-rolls of 1's should get some damage through.

I have one regiment and one troop choice for both, trying to find equivalent of Swordmasters.

Hunters - these are my Lions. They are totally different troop choice here though. They have 20 attacks, which is huge but hit on 4+ with no rerolls (no elite for them) and no crushing strength. They can vanguard though and are pathfinders meaning they move through terrain without penalties (i.e. they are not hindered when charging through and don't suffer -1 to hit penalty for doing so).

I am still not sure what role I want them to play. It seems to me they would be fantastic as a flanking unit. As a regiment they get only 5 more attacks and better morale so maybe I should rather go for regiments of infantry and troops of cavalry?

Sea Guard - it is a very interesting unit. It nicely combines the combat abilities of Spears and shooting of Archers but the designers found the right balance here in my opinion. You have fewer attacks than spears but more than Archers. You hit less often at range than Archers but have more shots per unit though. They also have this incredible phalanx rule and to me they look like a very flexible regiment. I want to take at least one simply because I have models painted. I also have these fantastic plastic models from IoB that would look amazing in this game. Until then I can also change the regiment of SG for regiment of Archers but I like the fact I could create some kind of battle line with PG and 2 x SG.

Archers - I added Oil simply to have an excuse to field Sisters unit. It has a little advantage against the targets with Regeneration but this does not work as in Warhammer. Only this small regiment can have the bonus. The are decent shooters and I like the unit.

Drakon Lord - I intend to use Griffon Rider from IoB to represent this model. Very fast it also inspires units nearby (i.e. in 6"). It has only 5 attacks but I think it can aid any charge, especially if I can position him well for flank or even rear attacks. It has good defense too.

Wizard - magic works differently in KoW. It is incorporated into shooting phase. You buy the spells instead of rolling them. Elven wizards come equipped with Heal spell that allows you to remove damage points. I decided to add Bane Chant too. It improves the chances to do damage for one unit be it in shooting or combat. I also gave him talisman that makes him inspire nearby troops. Inspire works in the following way, as soon as nerve test is failed (your unit would be routed) you force the re-roll. So it is quite helpful for your regiments indeed.

BSB - interesting concept is that you can have multiple BSB's in the army. I decided to get one to get one more source of inspire. BSB has no other role on its own but I also gave him Heal ability through magic item. I could also give him Lightning spell instead so I am just wondering it that is not a better option.

Bolt Thrower - War machine with 48" range. It works in a following way, you roll 2 dice, 4+ to hit normally with re-roll of 1's. Then whatever hits is multiplied d3 into number of attacks and then you roll for damage. It has "piercing (2)" special rule that works as CS or TC for combat. So the worst result to do damage is 4+. Essentially, single bolt thrower can do up to 6 damage points.

The interesting thing is that war machines also have arc of sight and some of them cannot be fired if moved in the same turn. BT is such war machine so positioning it well is also important.

So that is the army list I came up at the moment. There are still things I am not sure about. For example, there is an item that forces the enemy to deploy d3+1 units instead of 1 and that might be good idea for my army. I was also considering two wizards instead but if I take only 2 sources of inspire and one mobile that may not be close enough to grant it to the troops maybe it is too risky?

Another thing is that maybe I should rather invest in infantry regiments as they are cheaper and less sensitive to damage (i.e. they don't lose their CS when being hit) and get cavalry as troops only.

There are no stubborn unit here so I need to change the role for Lions too. I wish I would have more units than my enemy but it might be the best I can get anyway.

I have some other ideas in my mind as well. For instance, I have two griffon riders and they might be a very valuable addition as they are really fast so I could potentially set these flank/rear charges easier.

On top of that I am still quite ignorant as to what really works against what in that game :) But I think it is a good reference point I will try to work on further.

Cheers!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:38 pm 
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No idea what most of the stuff you said means, but do you have any games planned? It might be easier to understand after some battle reports. :P

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:23 pm 
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This looks cool SM. I liked the explanation next to the units too thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Thanks for comments, guys!

Yes, I plan to have KoW game soon so I hope to present some report afterwards and I am very curious about the first impressions. However, I will do my best to elaborate on any subject you find the most interesting. I can also provide an overview of the game/rules so that hopefully it will make more sense what I have written so far. It will be, of course, theoretical approach but I believe the rules were easy to learn and to explain the general ideas.

Let me know and don't hesitate to ask questions! It will help me as well, as I will need to come up with good explanation that would show if I understand the rules and the game at this stage.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:42 pm 
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Looking good so far, and very similar to what you were running in 8th. I'd like to see more sources of inspiring in your army though, general rule of thumb from what I've learnt is 1 inspiring every 500 points. It's important to remember that inspiring range is only 6" as opposed to the 12" BSB we're used too.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:25 pm 
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Hi Sackree,

I heard about that unwritten rule but I am going to try with 3 sources of inspire first and see how it goes. Technically I should be able to afford more but that would mean getting rid of Bolt thrower. I am still not sure if I need it but I like the fact I can have some long range support in the game where regular shooting and magic missiles might have 24" at best. In fact, initially I had 2 war machines and only 2 sources of inspire!

I decided to continue with some more musings simply to try and formulate some ideas about the game. I am sure it may overlap with things that you could read elsewhere but for the purpose of this blog it might actually be helpful. As the comment by Elithmar suggests, not all the readers might be familiar with the rules so let me try to provide some brief overview so that I can put the army in the context. I also have second army list I am considering. Last but not least, it is quite possible that I will have my first game against Empire of Dust (think Evil Tomb Kings).

KoW - General Rules

Apart from the deployment phase, where you deploy your units one at a time, alternating with your opponent (everything counts as one drop, even characters and machines and can be deployed any time you want), there are three phases in the game.

1. Movement Phase

Units have Speed characteristics in inches. You give orders to move to your units and you can choose one from the list. You can advance normally, up to your speed allowance (ranges from 4 to 10 inches unless modified by items). In that case you can pivot once at any time, up to 90 degree. You can go back or side step at half your speed. You can move at a double forward but you are not allowed to pivot. You can of course hold still. And you can charge (up to double the speed with a single pivot on the way).

You can move through friendly units provided you have enough movement allowance to clear the unit and stay 1" away from each other. You cannot do so during the charge. All of them can be given in any order you like.

As you can see there some important implications:

1. You can either maneuver or you can move fast but you cannot do both. That creates a very interesting dynamics where initial position will have a great impact. You might be able to cover the ground quickly but you might not necessary be able to reach your intended target unless you maneuver but that slows you down.

For example, Elves are Speed 6. They can cover 24" in two turns but it might not be possible to reach the intended target so quickly so one should assume 3 turns at best to be in position for an attack against the enemy that does not come towards you. And that may still be the option for frontal assault.

2. You can create the way for chargers. Simply side step to create the path. Might be very helpful to keep your best units shielded and enter the fight at full strength.

There are some more rules to take into account, for example terrain may have some effect but I want to keep things simple at this stage.

2. Shooting

Shooting is a separate phase, as expected but effects of spells are incorporated. All spells are resolved as shooting attacks in the sense that you roll "to hit" with as many dice as the spell allows and if you hit on unmodified 4+ then the result of the spell applies. It may sound simplistic but I saw it used in games and it can have subtle but important effect.

Regular shooting is also simple. Take as many dice as your Attacks characteristic says, hit on your unit's Range value (may be modified) and roll for damage using Defense characteristic of a target.

For example, a regiment of Sea Guard I intend to use, has 12 Attacks and Range value 5+ meaning I hit on 5+. Elves are Elite that allows them to re-roll 1's to hit. So if I didn't move I can probably count on 4-5 hits from that regiment. Many regular infantry units have 4+ defense value (like skeleton warriors from Empire of Dust army list) so I should be able to do 2-3 points of damage.

At the end of the phase I also roll for the Nerve value of the target. Nerve can be something like 10/12 or 20/22 or even more, depending how big and tough the target is. First value is Wavering threshold. If you meet that value then the unit is shaken for their following turn and might not be able to charge or shoot. It can be quite handy when you want some units to be stopped for time being.

If you reach the second threshold the target is routed, i.e whole unit is removed from the game.

The nerve test is performed as follows: you roll 2d6 and add the number of damage the unit accumulated so far (but you need to inflict at least 1 point that turn to force the test). For example, if Sea Guard inflicted 3 points of damage against the Skeleton troop I would need to roll 9 or more on 2d6 to rout the unit. Skeleton regiment would not be affected yet with their 16 rout threshold.

If there is a model with Inspire rule in 6" (such as BSB or some heroes) then I need to reroll the nerve test but only if the result was Rout.

As you can see I roll all the dice in my turn, my opponent is passive from that point of view. Shooting can be devastating of course but it is clear that you have to focus your efforts to do so and bigger units, with higher nerve value might not even care. However, as the damage is cumulative, every single point may be important and make a difference in later turns.

It is important to remember that the number of attacks the unit has does not change with increased damage so until you get rid of the unit it can still fight at full strength.

At the same time the shooting can have interesting impact when units waver and the opponent may not use them to charge, can slow them down and possibly create some breaks in formation by doing so.

3. Melee

Combat phase is called Melee in KoW and looks similar to the shooting phase in the sense that you again take as many dice as your attack characteristic, roll to hit with using your Melee value and then roll for damage against target defense.

Let's take Sea Guard vs Skeleton regiments as an example. If Sea Guard charged they would have 12 attacks hitting on 4+ with re-rolls of 1's due to Elite. so 6-7 attacks in, 3-4 damage points due to 4+ defense. Nerve test as before. If the unit was not routed, Sea Guard moves back 1" and that's it.

There are no attacks back. Again, active players does all the rolling.

As you can see it might not be that easy to eliminate the target on the charge. It is clear that one has to have good concentration of force to deal enough damage to rout the enemy. And here is where movement phase should help you.

In KoW you double the attacks if you charge from the flank and triple if you charge from the rear. Elves are generally faster than their counterparts so they should be able to charge first. Although cavalry will be faster than infantry anyway.

Now the trick, obviously, is to get some of your units around the enemy. As KoW armies are based around regiments and hordes it may mean the enemy battle line will not necessarily allow to do that easily. You may use brute force to create breaks in the formation by destroying units or find another way to surround the enemy. This is where I hope to find some ideas and I am considering certain units to help me in that task.

I will follow with a modified army list for that purpose soon.

Thanks for reading!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:49 pm 
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The funny thing is, I actually read the rules. :P But I only read them once and it's difficult to remember them without having ever played a game. Thanks for the summary. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:42 pm 
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Hi Elithmar,

Indeed, without playing a game it is harder to visualize what is possible and what can have particular effect during the battle. But that is precisely why I am continuing with the ramblings :)

KoW - Army List Building

KoW has, as I am sure I have mentioned already, their unique way of army list building. It evolves around regiments and hordes as the core of the force. You can take as many as you want for agreed point allowance. The trick lies in the fact that other elements you want to take for the army, troops, characters, monsters, war machines, have to be unlocked with regiments or hordes.

This creates a very interesting situation where you really have to get some regiments/hordes in and no matter what you do the army does look like an army. It actually have plenty of units.

Now the challenge lies in choosing the right balance for your own preference and style. I am not yet sure what the styles are going to be like in KoW but at least that is the assumption.

The first question then is regiments or hordes or maybe a mix of these? Regiments have smaller foot print, are cheaper than the horde but obviously have fewer attacks and lower nerve value. Single regiment unlocks two troops and one character or a war machine or a monster. If you buy horde it costs you more than a regiment but gives you better attacks and nerve value and unlocks four troops and a character and a war machine and a monster.

However, there is a very important difference. The abilities do not scale linearly. What I mean by that is that 2 regiments will cost more than a single horde despite visually consisting of the same number of models. The number of attacks may not be twice as high and the nerve value is not doubled. Horde still allows you to buy one more element than 2 regiments. This makes the choice much different and more difficult for a beginner I think but nonetheless still exciting.

Do I want more stable horde but risk being charged by more units at the same time? Do I take regiments for extra deployment drop that potentially may be still negated by extra element horde unlocks? Or do I take a mix of both and use these as a team anyway?

Personally, I prefer smaller units, due to the style I prefer and which I hope to transfer in some form to KoW.

MSU in KoW - is that even possible?

In WHFB I relied on larger number of units to create advantageous deployment. More units allowed for more mobility and swarming tactics where I could defeat potentially stronger enemy if the attack was executed with many units at the same time.

Is this or similar approach still possible to be developed in KoW? I definitely hope so but there are things I have to consider to take into account.

1. Armies

I mentioned before that in KoW due to their unique composition system armies look like armies. At 2000 points there are often 10+ elements in the opposing army anyway. In addition to the difficulty of out deploying the opponent their formation will not leave any obvious gaps and moving around or isolating units might not be that easy (more on it later).

This means that I need to re-define the deployment phase to be able to still use it to my advantage. I have some initial ideas but I will need to play some games first to see how they should work in details.

2. Movement

Movement is very important in KoW. But it also works in a way that is not easy to master as you either maneuver or move fast. With tough battle lines there might be no gap to exploit, especially that the units do not change formation in this game.

However, there might be some options worthy exploring that affect movement and allow for greater mobility.

Flying units/characters can be very useful in jumping over the enemy lines and be ready to strike their flanks or rear. I don't intend to field Drake Riders yet (no models and I seem to "hate" dragons due to abundance of these in late 8th edition as well as betrayal in background stories, i.e. End Times - Khaine :P). But Griffon Riders as Drake Lords can be a good option here.

Another option is to use Nimble units, this special rule allows the unit to make an extra pivot in addition to what is normally allowed.

Vanguard and Pathfinder are other special rules that aid you in the deployment and movement phases. Vanguard is the extra advance before the game starts while Pathfinder ignores certain terrain effects.

3. Shooting

I mentioned earlier that shooting can destroy enemy units but it can also make them waver or add some damage points. I think it is a perfect solution for me as I would be able to inflict some damage at a distance thus making it easier for my combat troops to actually rout their enemies. It will probably take some practice to learn how to implement it properly but I am looking forward to using shooting for such purpose more than to inflict damage.

4. Melee

Now that is the most important part as all the movement will actually lead towards this moment. Attacking from the flank or from many directions at the same time should do the trick as always. After all, doubling or tripling the attacks greatly encourages you to do it.

If well executed it might mean the enemy is eliminated with no damage on the part of my own units. However, I noticed that with more units on the enemy side and the game mechanics of KoW system that one should expect some kind of retaliation anyway. You don't overrun that far to avoid the enemy after destroying units. So you might still be visible for the remaining foes. Or when you reform after the victorious melee.

I believe that I will need to learn to estimate where the units can be in a few turns ahead, as it used to be in WHFB, but it will take a few games to get the feeling of it simply because the regiments move differently. And while I observed that breaking enemy battle line formation can be advantageous as expected it is often far from over. I witnessed some games where the end result was still a draw despite one army being initially overwhelmed by the enemy. I attribute it mainly to the fact that units do accumulate the damage over the battle.

With all these in mind I think I will simply need to shift my attention to deployment and movement even more than I used to and learn how to play against other armies with quite a large number of units. I think that the concept of MSU may be transferred to KoW but it might not be as easily distinguishable as in WHFB. I also prepared a second version of the army I consider to use for some initial games:

Outcasts in Mantica - Army List 2

Palace Guard Regiment - 150
- Stormwind Troop - 140
- Stormwind Troop - 140
- Drakon Rider Lord- 160

Sea Guard Regiment - 170
- Silverbreeze Troop - 145
- Silverbreeze Troop - 145
- Wizard with Banechant and Inspire - 110

Sea Guard Regiment - 170
- Palace Guard Troop - 105
- Palace Guard Troop - 105
- Drakon Rider Lord- 160

Hunters Regiment - 170
- Bolt Thrower - 90

This comes to the total of: 1980

Both armies have 14 elements which might not be that great but for Elite army is not too bad either (I think). I took Hunters regiment for that Vanguard and Pathfinder and while they are not Elite they have 25 attacks. I decided to take infantry regiments as they are slower and might take more damage on the way. At the same time I upgraded BSB to Drakon Lord for another inspire source but also to have an additional flier. He is not crazy with his 5 attacks but if on a flank or rear it might be quite a problem if the attack is coordinated with other troops.

Last but not least, here is the picture to visualize how the armies look like, with my MSU force from 8th edition for comparison. Please, take into account that the armies in KoW are only 2000 points.

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Cheers!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:08 am 
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I'm building some list in my head right now as the KoW seems to be a good game too.
I'm gonna test it this or next week, but meanwhile I have a question to you Swordmaster.
What do you think about the drake riders? This unit is amazing to me as a painter, I've always wanted to have drake riders like these from War of the beard.
Playable? Fly + nimble seem to be very significant in KoW as the maneuver phase wins the game there :)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:36 pm 
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Hi Galharen,

Drake Riders seem to be fantastic unit. I haven't used them myself yet (I blame Star Dragon players for that bias :-P) but they have numerous advantages.

- fly - you can charge over units, over terrain meaning you are not hindered
- combination of Thunderous Charge and Crushing Strength means that even if attacked they still can hit back hard, what is more, they can attack new unit as you disengage from combat and are free to go
- have good amount of attacks, hit well on 3+ and with Elite special rule
- good Defense and Nerve values
- fast and nimble - amazing combination

I think they are one of the best combat units in the list for sure. Nothing is unkillable in this game so be careful but they are awesome. I am still trying to resist their siren song but I also keep wondering about the unlimited options for conversions! :)

In summary, you can't go wrong by taking them :)

Cheers!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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