HE MSU in the Old World - Game 1 - 2000 vs Warriors of Chaos - 2024/03/04

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys,

I am going to attempt to write some kind of general description for each entry of the LM army Hinge is going to play with in the same way as I try to do it before each report. It is mainly for me to try and assess what are the dangers posed by the characters and regiments present. I don't expect to write anything revolutionary, simple characterization from the point of view of HE MSU.

Lizardmen - Army List

Slann Mage-Priest, General, Level 4, Channeling Staff, Focus of Mystery, The Harmonic Convergence - Lore of High Magic

Slann Mage-Priests are among the best wizards in the game. This particular one is going to be very efficient with channeling as he will have 3 attempts to do so per phase and +1 to all of them. That means Hinge will roll 3 dice and on 5+ he will channel. I need to assume that Slann will have an advantage in casting and it will be very difficult to get spells through. On top of that he knows all the spells from High Magic. That is huge.

Drain magic will be very useful to get rid of any augments and hexes I might be lucky to get through. With extra dice in his own magic phase it will be quite a possibility.

Soul Quench is very annoying spell against my small regiments. As they are lightly armored S4 is actually deadly. Even boosted version is not that difficult to cast for the Slann. The only hope is that short range will make it less useful. However, I need to remember that it can also be cast through skink priest as a vessel. Because it can be used as such in 24" it gives a fantastic opportunity for the Slann to stay away from trouble and have an effective range of 42"!

Aphotesosis will be very helpful to keep the other characters alive. Mighty as they are they still can be hurt but healing them to the full number of wounds is going to be very handy.

Hand of Glory is another subtle spell. It looks like Hinge might not need it that much but since we are going to play the game of movement, making his regiments faster will be helpful for sure. The same goes for WS and BS, where the small bonuses may start to stack with the influence of other spells.

Walk Between Worlds is a spell I would love to have myself. Even better than Hand of Glory for movement purposes. Allows to reposition regiment further and hopefully catch the enemy unguarded. Making the unit ethereal is also a good protection in itself.

Tempest is probably the least used spell of the lore but I expect that this template may affect my army in indirect way. For example, units are not allowed to move through it so it can be used as movement restriction too.

Arcane Unforging is perfect spell to fight these Chaos Sorcerers but against my army there might be fewer targets. Nevertheless, taking away wounds from my fragile characters is going to help anyway and if they start losing their few precious items - the better! For Hinge of course

Fiery Convocation may not be that useful on my regiments but I expect it may be cast at the beginning just to draw some dice either in the turn of casting or later. If it goes through I will lose a unit very quickly. I may not lose many in one go (although the odds are against me with S4) but the casualties will be more meaningful.

Then the lore attribute will allow to shuffle that amazing pool of spells further, making it quite difficult to predict what the dangers due to magic phase will be present the following turn.

I think the Slann will start the game with Saurus Warriors but if the situation permits, he can as easily start wondering on his own and let the Saurus carry the war to the enemy, led by their stalwart Veterans. It would protect the Slann indirectly but would allow to put more pressure on my units.

It will be very hard to get to that Slann as there are too many regiments in between. And if he stays with Warriors it will be even harder. But I will need to try or find the opportunity to do so as his magic can be very powerful indeed.

Saurus Oldblood, Great Weapon, Light Armour, Scaly Skin, Cold One, Talisman of Preservation, The Other Trickster's Shard

Scar Veterans are mean but this guy is the meanest of them all. With 1+ armor save and 4++ ward as well as T5 he is very hard to kill. With 5A and Predatory Fighter rule he is going to kill a lot all by himself. His WS6 may not be that high but against majority of units it is enough. His S7 is an overkill against my army though He is fully capable of taking on some units on his own too.

I expect him to start the game in one of the Saurus regiments but I am sure Hinge will always be looking for an opportunity to use him solo. Or with other Veterans. Magic may help to get rid of that guy but it will be very difficult even if I manage to get through the Slann's defenses. He may lose a wound or two in combat but again, that is not something I can count on.


Skink Priest, Dispel Scroll - Lore of Heavens

Very, very helpful character. His main role, in my opinion, is to extend the range for spells for the Slann and keep big toad safer. With so many skinks around he will have enough protection and will be able to jump from one unit to another if needed. His Dispel Scroll is very handy but I am not sure if Hinge is going to need it! On top of that Lore of Heavens is very good too. Although I don't think Hinge will take comet or chain lightning for him, even if he rolls it. Iceshard Blizzard is very useful spell anyway.

If the opportunity presents itself I would try to get him because it will limit the area Slann can affect the battle field with his spells.

[Saurus Scar-Veteran BSB, Great Weapon, Cold One, Armour of Destiny
Saurus Scar-Veteran , Cold One, Biting Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon

The other two of the three amigos! BSB is again very well protected, 1+ armor save and 4++ ward. Isn't it amazing how these tough guys can be made even tougher? They already have T5 to start with but no, they have to have 1+/4++ saves to keep them "safe" With two Saurus leaders sporting S7 and one with magical attacks, S5 and armor piercing, they present quite a flexible range of close combat prowess. Second Veteran does not have ward saves but he still has respectable 1+ save that can be re-rolled. I am not sure which one is worse. On top of that he has 2++ against fire. Which is amazing against certain spells

From my experience I can say that I am capable of dealing with any of these alone. But if they decide to come at me together or even in pairs, I will be in big trouble. In fact, I expect their respective units to be delivery system and even if they die on their way I will be hard pressed by these guys alone.

Skink Chief, Terradon, Relic Sword, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem, The Egg of Quango

As if I didn't have enough trouble I have to deal with this guy too! Relic Sword will not matter much against my army. He has 3+ armor save if I calculated correctly and will be hard to knock him down with magic missiles because of his Dragonbane Gem. But the biggest threat is his Egg. I lost full unit of Lions to that damn item!

He can also vanguard and timely walk between worlds will help him to be where he needs to be - behind my lines. I expect he will use terrain to sneak around or his fellow terradon riders to get some extra penalties to hit. And just for fun it will drop a rock on my head too

23 Saurus Warriors , Shields, Full Command

Anvil of the army but even with just one Scar Veteran they can be very dangerous. Well, in fact I lost to the unit like that without veterans in it too! My first impression was that they would serve as Slann bodyguards. But the more I think about it the more I am convinced it does not have to be the case.

Hinge has a great option to keep one cohort at the back and move Slann only when needed, using priest as a vessel and Saurus Warriors with any of the Amigos aggressively. The good thing is that there is only one unit of them.

They are not invincible but are very resilient and require to be isolated and attacked by few units of my own. It will be very, very difficult!

10 Skinks Cohort, Javelin, Shield, Standard, Musician
10 Skinks Cohort, Javelin, Shield, Standard, Musician

Banner bearers for the Blood and Glory, fast although less mobile than skirmishers. They don't have the same effective range for shooting either. Shield and scaly skin are quite good against S3 attacks. No penalty for moving and shooting is a bonus. They are there to serve multiple roles. Apart from banners for scenario I mentioned, they can be used as additional redirectors. They can be small bodyguard units for wizards. They can even disrupt the flanks against small units if unchecked and given the opportunity.

Good, cheap, annoying

10 Skinks Skirmishers, Javelin, Shield
10 Skinks Skirmishers, Javelin, Shield
10 Skinks Skirmishers, Javelin, Shield

3 clouds of skink skirmishers will be there to take away a few wounds from lightly armored infantry, slow down the advance, redirect and be even more annoying than cohorts. In theory, can be panicked but it will depend on the position of the Slann and Saurus leaders.

Again, javelins have the advantage of no penalty for movement, making their effective range very good. The thing is they need to be close to actually use them. Range is 12" which will probably be more like 10" away to allow second rank to shoot. And that can bring them into the charge range of my troops.

5 Chameleon Skinks
5 Chameleon Skinks

These guys are more efficient than regular skinks due to blowpipes and better BS. Potentially improved by Hand of Glory. They are always a priority for magic missiles as they are really hard to hit.

3 Terradon Riders

Some more annoying skinks! This time flying ones! They can be very helpful in war machine hunting, will provide protection for the chief if needed, will drop some rocks for good measure and if they die nobody cares anyway! Yet, as many of these skirmishers, they cannot be ignored.

Salamander Hunting Pack
Salamander Hunting Pack

Now these guys provide more serious damage output. Flame template it perfect against MSU army with T3 and 5+ armor save across the board. It is somewhat mitigated by the shorter range but they will get there shortly. What is interesting is that single salamander packs can actually be very good redirectors and additional units to block unwanted charges. They are also expendable. And not that easy to deal with as they might not be easy to reach.

It is some kind of a pattern here. Small, expendable units but with additional skills that make them dangerous enough not to be ignored. Win-win situation for Hinge. If they attract attention, they divert it from big guys. If they are ignored, they will be even more annoying and add to the number of casualties suffered.

6 Cold One Riders, Musician, Standard

Hammer unit. Excellent line breaker, with or without characters. I expect BSB to join them or be nearby simply to avoid unnecessary stupidity test failures. They are very good at grinding the enemy too since each model has 4 attacks. Prime target for Searing Doom!

If they charge the elite infantry I will be able to take some with me but I don't have high hopes in one-on-one combats against these guys. Flank charge from Dragon Princes would be ideal but I don't think I will be offered such an opportunity

2 Jungle Swarm

I hear that Hinge took these because he didn't want to paint any more skinks! They are still very useful and as many other regiments, cannot be ignored. The good thing is that Swarms crumble in combat. The bad thing is they have many attacks per base.

Overall I think it is a very, very tough army for me to take on. It has huge built in flexibility, with characters and regiments able to perform multiple roles so it will be hard to predict what they are going to do next.

On one hand the army can advance aggressively to use its shooting potential, that is significant but the regiments have short range. On the other, the army can as well sit back and try to use magic and Salamanders to convince me to come to them if I want to grab some points.

I think Hinge will not be defensive but at the same time he told me his army is not earning points early. That means he will spend time positioning regiments carefully and move them around to get the advantage.

He has 11 deployment drops + characters + 2 scouting units meaning I am at no advantage as to the deployment. He has 10 support units (2 cohorts + 3 skink clouds + 2 chameleon + terradons + 2 salamanders + swarms) and all of them can do damage at range. The are not great in combat so there might be a chance that my own regiments could take on them close and personal but there as well might be a lot of fleeing to put my units in vulnerable positions for counter attacks.

The large amount of support is perfectly balanced by the 2 hard hitting regiments and powerful characters. Three amigos can do a lot of damage all by themselves but flying chief is a danger in his own too. On top of that I will be at huge magic disadvantage.

I perceive my strengths in the following areas:

1. Combat against support troops
2. Better range for the shooters
3. Initial advantage in magic missiles (unless Hinge is going to roll and keep chain lightning )

I am definitely weaker in:

1. Magic in long term
2. Combat with big guys (2 saurus units + 3 amigos)

I think I will need a disciplined battle line that allows for movement but without leaving openings to back door and presenting constant threat of being charged for support elements of LM army. I still don't know if Hinge is going to keep his units relatively close together or is he going to form two battle groups around both Saurus regiments. He can do both and both approaches will be viable.

Now I also need to decide what to do depending on the side I am going to be

I wonder how things look like from the point of view of Slann

[SpellArcher]

I believe Tempest does not affect movement. Against the Loremaster I feel the Dispel Scroll could be very handy indeed, quite often you see lists with a second Priest and Cube of Darkness too.

Will you be tempted to hang back and use your range Swordmaster, or will you get stuck in? Or both?

[Curu Olannon]

I think that discussion on what is gamey for different players is a very interesting subject and it definitely deserves a separate topic.

Thread up - http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=67152

Hinge, I`d really appreciate your thoughts on the matter as well. As far as I understand, you have experience with a large range of metas, opponents and tournaments. Would be interesting to see how things are in the US.

[Hinge]

I wonder how things look like from the point of view of Slann

The Slann is contemplating the mind bending idea of playing someone who resides in the future!

Oh and which beer he will purchase for the match. The Old Ones had foreseen this day and provided a clear answer to this dilemma but the records of it were destroyed in a dark elf invasion many years ago. My skink attendants are currently researching and piecing this important information together from clues.

A little over 24 hours away!

Hinge

PS

I did a little pregame write up of the match and hated it. Going to try again.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Oh yes, nothing like wondering deliberations with some beer at hand to contemplate the focused mystery of things to come

[pk-ng]

Can't wait! Will be watching

[SpellArcher]

Swordmaster, further to my comment in the Hinge batrep thread:

I was looking over the latest incarnation of my WE army when it struck me that apart from two things, it was essentially an MSU force. The first was a fighting lord in a medium sized cavalry unit. But break that unit in two, swap the lord for another two units and I would have, essentially an MSU army with it's concomitant deployment and maneouvre advantages. The retention of the second mid-sized unit, 20 elves with GW's, would not change the character of such an army that much.

The implication is of course, is it worth considering such a unit in your own army? The point has been made many times that for GW-wielding troops, a third rank of attacks helps make up for the loss of previously-enjoyed re-rolls. Equally, such a unit can better take losses from troops with true ASF or simply high I and still strike back with some force. There are other advantages of scale re Steadfast etc. too of course.

It would be foolish not to consider the downsides too. Such a unit is inherantly more vulnerable to template weapons and top spells. It is a bigger chunk of points to lose in one go, so it is harder to sacrifice in the pursuit of a gain such as the destruction of an enemy mainstay unit. It loses you a deployment drop. It simply lacks the flexibility of two smaller units.

Specifically, what if such a unit were made of Swordmasters? These are good all-round fighters, effective against most troops in the game. They are not Stubborn or especially resistant to damage so would rely on killing power to win combats or at worst lose narrowly until help could come. There is a strong case for giving them Banner of the World Dragon, though this might not be essential. The argument for spell protection is more compelling. Typically this would be provided by a Life or High Archmage in the unit, though the Loremaster could be of some help via Earthblood.

What if White Lions? These are of course especially good against enemies with T4+ or 4+ AS but might need help in tackling enemy infantry. World Dragon really makes sense because it counters the negation of their Lion Cloaks by magical shooting. Again, they benefit from defensive buffs but the Cloaks make these less needed than by the SM's. Stubborn and the unit size mean you could, within limits, push them forwards and trust them to hold, maybe with characters.

Phoenix Guard are firstly more expensive than the other two. They are S4 so might struggle to put wounds on high Toughness enemies. Against most things though, the ASF re-rolls and access to the Razor Standard make their damage output respectable. Obviously their 4+ Ward save is key. Not only does this make it very hard for an opponent to win combat, it also makes them solid against ranged spells and shooting. Which means you don't need to spend power dice etc protecting them. This is indeed a unit you can advance in confidence, it will hold against a lot of things. It can do this without characters but you would retain the option of putting them there, both for safety and for generating extra combat res to break things. You might not need 20 of them. Rod is very happy with his 15. Mal is considering 18. Either would of course reduce a hefty points investment.

So in essence, I suggest that including this single larger unit would not change the overall playstyle that much but might give you a few more options SM, especially if you are reticent about advancing at times. Because such a unit has a better chance of winning if charged or at least holding, which has implications for where you can advance your characters. With a Loremaster tooled for combat such a unit can take ground and act as a base for your faster units, such as Dragon Princes, to work around.

I'm sure you and others are well aware of much of the above but I thought it necessary to set down the factors I could see as being relevant. You said you were considering PG, these are the kind of things I feel might influence your decision.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi SpellArcher!

Thanks a lot for your very valuable feedback! I promise I will address your comments in more detail and I believe the general assessment of the current army list is also required so I will try to combine both. However, if you find time before I do that, could you tell me where would you look for points for PG unit and what size/banner would you consider?

Cheers!

[SpellArcher]

You're welcome Swordmaster. You could simply drop one unit of Swordmasters and one of Lions to grab an 18 of PG with full command and Razor Standard. The champion is important for challenges, especially because you'd want to retain the option of putting characters in there. Razor standard is necessary I feel to fight armoured stuff, especially as it would help out the characters too. You could drop the Noble instead of one of the units I guess.

[Rowena]

[I have borrowed my girlfriend's account as the notification mail needed for registration doesn't want to arrive for some reason.]

Hi Swordmaster,

I have followed your reports for quite a time and never felt the need to comment. However, as you yearn for comments this much, I have to oblige. It turned out to be quite an essay but do not worry, I will not have the time to write such lengthy posts in the future.

There are several things I would like to adress:

0) Foreword

First and foremost, I would like to thank you for all the effort you put into the reports and the forum in general. I have created a few reports myself and man, I know how much time this requires. In addition, not only is your blog a good read and source of wisdom; you are also a prime example that if a player is stubborn enough he can play even with units and armies that are “weak” and “not viable” with respectful results. It is very refreshing as on too many places you only hear that you should basically throw away half of each armybook or more if you want to be a bit competitive at least. So again, thank you very much!

1) Your reports

I think your reports are good as they are. What you could do is adding point values in the army lists, at least for your army. The reader can then more easily follow what unit exchanges were favourable, how desperate was sacrificing this particular unit of lions and so on.

Furthermore, you could elaborate more on why you did which decision. You are describing your general plan and some of your decisions but from my point of view, more detail in this regard can only help. It is not a necessity, however – it would make the post even longer after all.

Contrary to other posters I do not think there is a need to provide more story, let alone prologues and epilogues. You are filling the reports with enough flavour as is (interesting that your elves never fear, only their horses get distracted occasionally - and I loved the “one use only imitation of the real Ring Of Fury”). If you have the ambition to write a story do not limit yourself with what happened in a Warhammer battle; and if you don't why would you do it in the first place? But if you want to write this it surely won't hurt.

This is all I can think of so you are probably doing a very good job.

2) Characters

Now, let's move on to the fighting itself. If I am not mistaken you almost exclusively put your characters in lions or swordmasters. Why is this? Archers or sea guard would make a nice bunker as well and the fighters would then be free to throw themselves to some epic battles.

I have the feeling that you picture your characters in the fights, personally leading your regiments to victory – that's why they have equipment for close combat like merwyrm shield and even talisman of endurance - but at the same time, you consider them too fragile to actually send them there. There are of course two solution to this: you can either equip them for combat so well that you do not fear anymore, or accept they do not want to fight at all, keep them in archers most of the time and change their items accordingly.

Do you ask how would I achieve this?

a) the combat variant:

Your BSB has already a 4++ parry and the best armour possible for a foot character (except armour of silvered steel I think). If this is not enough, you could buy him the 4++ talisman and a charmed shield. 4+/4++ and ignoring first hit almost surely is far from invulnerable but better than nothing. Or enchanted shield and talisman of preservation for 3+/4++.

If you think this does not suffice (and I guess you do because this is hardly a significant improvement over your last version), you would have to mount him. This allows some more builds, for example:

- Barded steed, heavy armour, GW, charmed shield, dragonhelm, dawnstone for 1+ rerollable but no ward
- Barded steed, heavy armour, GW, enchanted shield, talisman of preservation for 1+ / 4++

Note that this builds gives him for constant S6 attacks at initiative 7. The drawback is of course that with your current setup you quickly lose look out, sir! You could add a slightly bigger cavalry unit or just hide your BSB whenever cannons and other nasties are present.

With Larry's higher point allowance, you can achieve better protection as you can combine a 4++ ward with, say, dawnstone or potion of toughness. Such as:

- Armour of destiny, enchanted shield, potion of toughness which with 3+/4++, T6 for one turn should see him through one round of fighting rather easily
- Armour of silvered steel, dawnstone for a 2+ rerollable

Note that both builds leave enough space for your beloved earthing rod.

b) out of combat version

The question is, if your loremaster is going to stay out of combat as much as possible, does he even need any equipment, earthing rod aside? But I assume you can give him ToP and potion of toughness anyway so that a suicidal charge of some chaff won't kill him that easily. Besides, there are some flying heroes that could try to assassinate him.

For the BSB… well, I know you want him to do something besides waving his flag. What about stacking the passive buffs he provides? He could wear the flaming banner and give flaming shots to the unit that needs them the most. Or he could be wearing an item for magic resistance, protecting Larry from death snipes (together with ward he would have a 2+ which is surely nice) and his unit from tempests and such.

Or he could give a 2++ to his whole unit and on top of that a near-immunity to some of the aforementioned flying heroes. I know, you hate the imba banner. But it really is that good.

Another thing to note is that you can combine both approaches if you field a mounted fighty BSB (dawnstone version probably) and Loremaster with MR(3) and potion of toughness or something.

3) MSU today

Now I am opening a series of quite difficult topics so I hope I will make at least a little sense. Some of what I will say may not be the case in Australia. Or at all.

It is a string of thoughts that should answer why you play passively and why you, despite being a very competent player, struggle to achieve big victories while your losses are often painful.
Yes, I know you dislike talking lists and prefer talking tactics. But still, I hope the following musings can be of some use.

I think MSU is not dead. Worse: it is quite common that an army or its part operates on MSU principles - at least the support department. High elf armies often have three units of reavers, some small silver helms, some eagles and four bolt throwers. Dark elves will probably to any battle bring several fast cavalry units and some mounted heroes who are strong on their own – and the bolt throwers as well. Lizardmen have powerful heroes, too, and add many units of skinks or terradons. Warriors of chaos compose their armies almost entirely from powerful individual models – chariots, chimeras, heroes. Bretonnians can easily have three units of pegasus riders and several paladins. Wood elves seem to have MSU as their nature. Even dwarfs can be insanely annoying with six gyrocopters.

This puts you in my opinion in a difficult situation. Your ideal opponent is one that has several large blocks and no support at all: you can then easily divide the big units, destroy some and escape the rest. If clearing chaff takes too much time, however, you can hardly do this. While you have very good answers to units such as reavers I am not that sure you can as easily dispose of a chaffing unit of silver helms. Or a chaos chariot. You can do this of course but it could take quite a time. And I am even less sure you have enough definitive answers for independent heroes.

The other consequence of support units being abundant is that everybody stacks means to counter them. This is why I mentioned earlier so many elf lists field four bolt throwers, probably backed up with some doombolts or soul quenches at least. Lone heroes and chariots have huge threat arcs, in turn. I do not have to explain to you how much those things can hurt your small units; I just want to stress that if they have more support, clearing it up enough to allow your trademark combined charge takes longer, therefore you will suffer more casualties through their ranged presence and maybe will be unable to go on the offensive at all because your fighty units will be reduced beyond use.

In conclusion, winning the chaff war is more difficult for you than before. Which is a big blow because you are even more dependent on support than other armies.

4) Piling up the strengths

Some units are resilient through toughness, armour or a mass of bodies. Some units have a high damage output at range or in close combat. Some are manoeuverable. And then, there are units that can counter a particular strength: waywatchers and metal mages for armour, poison for high toughness, screening units and miasma for massed shooting, scouts and fast cavalry for warmachines. You have counters for all types of enemies in your army – if you do everything right, you will send lions against high toughness, flaming princes against regenerating monsters, archers and sea guard against hordes of skaven slaves.

However, this only works against armies that possess all of the aforementioned weaknesses. A competitive player will ask, though: why should I give my opponent something his S3 shooting is good against if I can build a wall of 1+ armour? Why should I field something opposing infantry can catch if my fast cavalry is so good? Against armies built with this philosophy, you are beginning to struggle. You can easily take care of a unit of knights but an army full of them would be quite rough. Sure, your archers would still be able to chip a wound here and there and then they could bring some ranks into combats. Still, they would be of limited use in such a matchup.

The question now stands how much can an enemy put you at a disadvantage just by piling up on some limited unit choices. I am not the right person to judge this: I think you should be OK against armour heavy or avoidance armies, probably against shooters, too; I am not so sure about armies with too many wounds (all flavours of undead, skaven, lizardmen, beastmen) or with too many fast and tough models (WoC, but also lizardmen or DE for example). But this is just a not so educated guess.

Another thing to consider is that your army does no such denying. No matter what your opponent brings, it will be useful against something.

More importantly, the supposed edge of MSU lists lies in mobility but you do not actually have it as your infantry is slow and the archers even more static. Among units that are faster than you is pretty much the whole Chaos army, skinks, silver helm buses, flying heroes, warlocks, wild riders, gyrocopters, pegasus knights and smaller knight units (big ones are quite clumsy though) or monsters of all kinds. You can outmanoeuvre your opponent anyway but it might be difficult.

With this in mind, what do you think is the strength of your army?

5) The usefulness of GW infantry

As lions and swordmasters are your main tool to deal with high toughness and armour, we should look at them in detail. There is no doubt they are perfect against, say, dwarf heavy infantry, especially if you manage a flank charge. However, there are a lot of enemies out there where I am not convinced about the outcome.

Mathammer time. A MSU infantry unit against a dark elf hero on pegasus: T4, 1+, 4++, great weapon, a popular build. He scores some four kills together with pegasus and stomp, maybe only three if you are lucky. Eight lions have a 50% chance to score a wound and only 12% to score two. Swordmasters have a 43% chance for one wound and 10% for two. Next round, the hero kills three or four models more and there will be almost no attacks back. In the third round he should clear the unit up. A dicey fight but favouring the lone hero. The pegasus master costs something like 180 points.

A scar-veteran is going to fare even better as he has T5. I would expect the same of Chaos heroes and vampires.

Ten white lions inflict three wounds on demigryfs. They will probably break them if charging to the flank; however, if fighting frontally, the chickens win. Swordmasters inflict only two wounds and so even the flank charge could not be enough. Skullcrushers defeat both lions and swordmasters even if charged in the flank, provided they manage the combat reform after first round. I assume other flavours of monstrous cavalry would yield similar results. Sure, skullcrushers are 100 points more expensive than the foot soldiers but still, two units of them plus several chariots plus some heroes plus a unit of trolls is pretty standard.

Lions average something around three wounds on a dark elf cold one chariot but the model has four. The Chaos one is surely at least as sturdy (I have the dark elf armybook but not the Chaos one). And it is quite likely that in the following round, another chariot is going to slam into your unit and delete it. As a result, your warriors are almost guaranteed to perish, while the chariot can survive with some luck – and even if not, a one for one exchange is favourable to the WoC player as he has plenty of armoured units but you possess only a handful of can openers.

You are of course aware of this and this is why you so often write that you “have to weaken this unit first before engaging”.

6) The MSU bowline

When I think about your playstyle and the thoughts I have just written I have the impression that you actually do not really have an aggressive army. You more often than not sit back, shoot and wait for the enemy to come while stalling and weakening him; and then, when he is near, you countercharge. It takes a dedicated gunline to outshoot you.

If this is true and you indeed already play this way, you can use it to your advantage in deployment or rework your list to support it better.

7) What would Marchosias do?

So, now we come to the tricky part – after saying what all is wrong, I should provide some kind of solution.

Please see the following lists as concepts rather than finished lists. I am sure they can be vastly improved if one tries just a bit.

a) The more obvious way is to rework the list to a true bowline with interesting countercharge opportunities. For example:

Loremaster: cca 300 points

BSB on foot, imba banner: 150
Noble on barded steed, fighty stuff: 140

8 silver helms, musician, champion: 204
21 archers, champion, musician: 230 (you can split these in two small units of course)
2x 5 reavers, bows: 2x 85

10 swordmasters, champ, musician: 150
2x 10 white lions: 2x 140
5 dragon princes, flaming banner, musician: 175

4 bolt throwers: 4x 70
15 sisters: 210
2x eagle: 2x 50

Bolt throwers are good both at clearing chaff and keeping monsters and lone heroes scared. Sisters with their S4 shooting are a clear improvement over the sea guard. BSB and loremaster are meant for the sisters unit, this is why BOTWD is such powerful as the sisters would be the prime target of enemy fire even without characters present. And you still retain a good punch in cavalry and heavy infantry.

I suppose you could also change the infantry regiments for a bigger block of phoenix guard (some 24 with razor banner) as this is a unit that can hold and grind down a surprising range of foes but I think this would not be an army you would like to play. You could surely add more shooting in the form of shadow warriors as well though I am not convinced losing another high strength unit for them would be worth it.

b) Another build I would be willing to bet on would keep the support elements more or less as they are but rely on heroes and cavalry for countercharges, leaving out heavy infantry. Along the lines of:

Loremaster: cca 300 points

BSB on barded steed, fighty stuff: 170
Noble on barded steed, fighty stuff: 140

8 silver helms, musician: 204
5 silver helms, musician: 125
10 archers, musician: 110
2x 5 reavers, bows: 2x 85

2x 5 dragon princes, musician: 2x 155
8 dragon princes, musician, banner of eternal flame: 262
12 white lions, musician: 166

3 bolt throwers: 3x 70
2x 5 sisters: 2x 70
2x eagle: 2x 50

The five units of heavy cavalry are not that easy to destroy as they are heavily armoured. There are two bigger units to provide look out for the heroes for a while at least (though it won't last long anyway). They have a big disadvantage in being only S5, this is why two fighty heroes are important – properly kitted out they should perform nicely in a grind. I am not sure if the charging power is enough to really break the strong enemies such as demigryfs, though. You could squeeze in up to four mounted heroes if you really decided to but should you want to go this route you could as well switch to Bretonnia.

c) You have mentioned that you would like to play more a more aggressive and close combat oriented game. Well, you can take as many units designed for this as possible and hope for the best. The army below has almost no shooting and is therefore forced to engage; in close combat, it should have enough redundancy to get all the nasties down eventually. I am not convinced it is exceptionally strong but I think battles with this force should be eventful at least. I would fear, though, that with such an army enemy chaff might disrupt you too much.

Loremaster: 300

Fighty BSB on steed: 170
Fighty hero on steed: 140

8 silver helms, musician: 194
2x 5 silver helms, musician: 2x 125
2x reavers, bows: 2x 85

5 dragon princes, musician: 155
8 dragon princes, musician, banner of eternal flame: 262
3x 10 white lions, musician: 3x 140
2x 10 swordmasters, musician: 2x 140

2x eagle

Conclusion

I feel that your army is very fragile and that this weakness is not offset by any strength such as mobility or sheer destructive power (you are solid at range but your close combat strength is mediocre at best). As a result, you have to wait with engaging and almost any opposing unit can cause you to bleed.

This is why I seek how to improve your durability (heavy cavalry, imba banner), mobility (heavy cavalry), combat strength (more high strength units, fighty heroes) or ranged presence (more bolt throwers, more sisters).

Your army obviously works nicely as you are able to win often so there is probably no need to change the list as drastically as I have proposed above. I do not even know how accurate my thoughts are. I just wanted to share them.

And again, apologies for writing such a wall of text.

Marchosias

P.S.: 1000th post, congratulations!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Marchosias,

I was about to start with the most recent report when I have noticed your post. I would like to thank you for very kind words and for taking time to provide such a comprehensive feedback. It is one of the best posts I have ever received! There are so many valuable points, great insight and understanding of the army I try to use and want to improve.

I will reply to all your wise suggestions but as you can imagine I will need a little time to first digest all the fantastic information you have provided and then to form an appropriate response. Please, be patient!

You gave me a lot of food for thought but I also want to thank you for the way you provided that feedback. You are the example to follow

Now, if you excuse me, there is a report from chasing away some dragons

Cheers!

[Ferny]

Now, if you excuse me, there is a report from chasing away some dragons

This sounds promising!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Ferny,

The report is on, although I haven't posted my comments on the game yet!

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys,

I hoped to reply in one go but it seems that I keep postponing it and I kept you waiting for too long. Let me try to address the suggestions made one by one instead. Maybe I will succeed in getting to all of them eventually!

@ Spell Archer

It has been shown with many other armies that you can have one or more medium or big units in the army and still keep the MSU style. It is all about the movement phase, after all. Hinge's Lizardmen are good example. I have seen Daemonic MSU with big unit of Plague Bearers in it. Your WE are also a very good example.

The question is, would HE MSU could do something similar and if yes, what would that unit need to do.

No matter what unit you choose they all have a similar problem, they attract more attention than other regiments in the army. That means that such unit should probably be better protected. Technically, every on of our elite infantry can be made bigger. As you have already said, each of them benefits one way or another from having more bodies.

The main challenge, however, lies in accommodating such a regiment. Because it is not only about it being more attractive target for the enemy but about the fact it has to be included at the expense of other 2 units.

It would be easier to do so with existing regiments. For example, I could sacrifice one WL unit to make two SM regiments bigger and probably keep the way I play with them without much of a change, enjoying the benefit of a bigger regiment. Or I could get rid of the mounted noble and do the same while keeping 4 elite infantry units.

Phoenix Guard is more tricky because I cannot simply replace one elite unit. I need to take away 2 or one unit and noble to find points. Then PG would play different role to other regiments as well. While other armies may serve as a nice example of how PG can be used I think I cannot follow these, as they are different armies and rely on different set of strengths. For instance, US Masters army had quite a few characters in there that further boosted offensive capabilities of PG and created very flexible unit. With High Magic they also became very tough to kill, making that unit even more formidable.

Other armies have PG block with Razor Standard to run together with Lions. They nicely support each other, being able to tackle many different foes.

Inspired by Hinge's LM and by the use of Sisters of Thorn by WE players, I considered a medium unit of PG as dedicated character protectors. Or at least Loremaster bodyguards. For that purpose Lichbone Standard seems like a good idea to have 2++ ward against some spells. They can still engage in combat against certain foes, can be a potential target for Wildform and use their 3 ranks with I6 re-rolls attacks to good effect. I could use them aggressively too, not being slowed down by the regiment that wants to shoot such as Sea Guard or Archers.

The problem with this unit is that at the moment I don't have the models with me and while it is not an issue in general I would need to get them and paint them. With very limited time to do so I also need to that into account in order to be able to play real games (in particular at the tournaments). It is of course no problem with UB where I might test that idea.

Having said that I think I need to do more in terms of army list evaluation as I think that such changes are required too. But that is also something Marchosias was talking about and I will try to address his suggestions later.

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Marchosias,

First of all, apologies for taking it so long to reply to your very insightful and thought provoking post. I read it many times and I am still doing it! Thanks again for so many interesting suggestions and I hope you will continue posting on Ulthuan as I am sure many other members would be grateful for your feedback!

Let me try to address your comments in the order you put them.

0 - Foreword

Thank you very much for your kind words! There are a few reasons I do it. First, is to thank my opponents for the game we played. Second, battle reports were always my favorite part of old White Dwarf or section of any forum I visit. I thought I can combine both and try to create something I would like to read myself and hopefully that would be interesting for others too.

Thanks to comments like yours I know I did a good job and get motivation to try and write even better ones!

I think Warhammer is the game with infinite possibilities. It grows when variety is present. Also on the tournament scene. I like the challenge of bringing the army I like to play with and believe has tools for the job despite the fact it does not follow the "internet knowledge". I know that my achievements may not be enough for some people and unless I win ETC on my own they will never acknowledge this style as "viable". Well, I don't really care. I believe the readers are smart enough to decide on their own if that type of an army has potential or not, if that is the way they would like to try themselves or not. And as long as they had a good read it is all that matters to me. Anything more than that, any comment, feedback, suggestion is a bonus.

Hence, I would like to thank you for these encouraging words. It is good to know there are people who enjoy the way I play that game and the way I write about the battles.

1 - Reports

Point cost - it is a good suggestion. I will try to add it if possible (sometimes I don't have the details of my opponents lists)

Details on decision making - I will try to improve that part. I have tried to do so in the summary but I believe it is not enough simply because I often talk only about a few of the situations. One way of doing so is to add more comments below narrative for each sub-turn. Or to make the narrative more descriptive to give hints what was on my mind when I did particular move.

Stories - it is to strike the balance between story telling and game details. I probably cannot provide enough for all type of readers but I thought I might try to add something extra anyway? I don't think I am good enough to write long stories but short descriptions of the game events are what I like. Especially when I can mock my own characters

2 - Characters

I believe I started positioning my characters with Lions or Swordmasters due to two changes I made in the meantime. First, I gave Lions Standard of Discipline, so that in order to benefit from +1 Ld the most I tend to add the Loremaster there. Second, after I left Reaver Bow at home and added Ring of Fury I have found out that he needs to be closer to the enemy to get into 18" range to simply pose a threat.

These two are interesting side effects, so to speak. I still use Archers and Sea Guard as character "bunkers" but it is definitely not as often as I used to do it with shooting BSB and the Archmage.

I don't necessary want my characters in the fight but at the same time they seem to be more likely to end up in one. I don't want slow down my regiments I did when I had the Archmage and BSB with bow. So it is a consequence rather than a plan to have them equipped for combat.

It is a good point, however, to decide on their role and what they need to fulfill that.

Both variants you discussed are appealing. From what you described I like the last option, not discussed in the most detailed way. I always liked flexibility and that is the way I try to equip my characters too. Of course they should be able to do things units cannot. But what I would like to achieve is being able to choose if I want to adopt counter attacking approach or full out assault if needed. Of course there are much more in between but that is the general principle and I need my characters to do so.

Hence, I think the mounted BSB and Loremaster with the items that affect the unit he is with are the way to go. I will see what I can come up with but Potion of Toughness and MR(3) items in particular made me intrigued. Thanks a lot for other suggestions too, I thought about them a lot as they are very interesting in themselves.

3 - MSU today

I would like to stress out that I am not against army list talks in general. I just believe that it should not be the first thing to discuss when analyzing the game (no matter, won or lost). And I have learned much more since I started using MSU army by focusing on what I could have done with the very same set of units/characters I had in the particular game.

However, this particular topic is army list orientated. What I wanted to achieve by making a separate one is to discuss the concept in a bigger picture. It is fantastic to discuss particular game but I also aim at having the army I can take against any opponent. Hence, the discussion of the army list is required too. It is also the topic where I hoped to discuss the evolution of the army as I try to adapt to ever changing balance between the armies. We got many new army books in 8th edition and that created dynamic balance. In order to give myself a fighting chance I need to be able to identify what has changed in the enemy camp and if I need some adjustments myself.

Apart from that, there are plenty of units/characters I haven't used yet and that is the reason enough to do so!

I have observed that many armies started using more support elements and that is a great thing to see. The armies are not that one-dimensional thanks to that. Of course there are still forces that are compact, with few units. But that is ok as this is part of the game too.

It is true, however, that it became more difficult for my MSU to deal with support regiments of the enemy. They are not outclassed in one-on-one combats if they are part of elite armies, as other Elves, for example. They might be cheap in other cases and an exchange of support elements of the army does not benefit me that much.

And another observation, that points out at the way other armies can have more anti-support tools is also very important. Because the very same tools can harm my assault troops too, while keeping their own light troops engaged with my own.

I feel the need to win that support units war quickly and decisively so that I can still control the movement phase while having enough strength to keep providing that help to the heavy hitters.

It seems to me I need to help my support units first in order to make it possible for them to provide support later. In order to win that support elements war I need to:

1. Deal with enemy fast cavalry
2. Deal with enemy scouts
3. Deal with enemy flying single models, i.e. chimeras, pegasus/eagle/terradon riding heroes, chariots etc.
4. Prevent enemy shooters and magic from destroying my own support

Fast cavalry

Fast cavalry is now often included in army lists. I find it particularly peculiar as I remember the time when members on this very forum thought Reavers are waste of points. Yes, they are now core but I think it is not the only reason they are used. Besides, all elven armies have access to fast cavalry now in some forms.

The challenge lies in the fact that there are more units in a single army with that ability and that these regiments are not "just" fast cavalry. Warlocks are dangerous because of their magic and the fact they are very well protected. The are also well prepared to defend themselves against other light troops. Wild Riders are ultimate glass cannon and with the sheer amount of their attacks they can also easily win support regiments war and use that to position themselves better for the more important combats.

Flying fast cavalry, such as terradons, ripperdactyls, warhawks or peg knights are more difficult to shot down and are even more difficult to catch. Again, they are also quite good at fighting on their own.

Previously I could deal with fast cavalry with my shooting and magic missiles as well as with my own fast cavalry. I still can but my shooting is not that efficient if there are more fast regiments to deal with. Magic missiles are also good as always but there are also more targets for them.

If I were to use the same army I have I need to be able to move in a way that creates danger zones for such regiments. Unfortunately, with infantry force it means they may still avoid my units and as a result I may move slower in order to maintain formation.

Because of that I think I need to add more heavy cavalry in the form of Silver Helms to deal with such threats. They are well armored and hit reasonably hard at S5 as well as having long charge distance. That means enemy fast units will be in danger earlier. I am also wondering about chariots again, as they are good support for infantry and may help here as well. I believe units of eagles, with the ASF upgrade, can be very good at support units war but the problem is I have already run out of points!

My intention then is to replace Sea Guard (unfortunately, as I absolutely love the models) with Silver Helms as a first step.

Scouts/Skirmishers

With new WE army book there are more and more scouts out there. Way Watchers are probably the most dangerous of them but Shades and Chameleons are also very good at what they do. If you combine these regiments with fast cavalry you have bigger problem simply because these units have to be eliminated fast but it requires more resources to do so than against a ranked unit with similar amount of models or point cost.

Scouts affect your deployment too, sometimes forcing you to spread formation to deny them the good positioning close to your lines, can prevent vanguard moves and if allowed to hide in the forest, are very difficult to get rid of. It is a win-win situation for your opponent. If you go after scouts, you do not use resources to eliminate other threats or soften tough units. If you don't then they will make your life miserable by accurate shooting and messing up your movement phase.

Even more that against fast cavalry, magic missiles are your friend here. Small cavalry units may help but against Shades or even more so against Way Watchers, stand and shoot can be devastating. That is the reason why I added ring of fury to the army but I am afraid with its short range it is not as efficient weapon against scouts and skirmishers as I would like to have.

The good thing is that small heavy cavalry regiments can be actually very good against skirmishers and being able to set charges with 2 units so that one charges from behind another can greatly limit the efficiency of shooting. Again, would be great to have units of skirmishing great eagles for that purpose.

Single models

This is another thing that I find more and more popular and rightly so. Flying heroes are tougher and very flexible. They can attack alone or add their help to other units. Since they fly, they cannot be stopped. They have goo armor and often sport some cheap protection against flaming attacks. So some spells are greatly limited in the effect against them.

Flying monsters such as chimera are dangerous also because they cannot be challenged as single heroes. And with t-stomps they have a good chance of killing my elite infantry before it has a chance to strike.

Chariots have their impact hits and some of them are incredibly tough and well armored.

None of these can be dealt with by my own fast regiments. I can hurt some of the monsters if I catch them with cavalry and infantry at the same time but it is obviously hard to do. Attacking with cavalry alone can be done and has the advantage of not being stomped but if the initial charge does not break them then they are in trouble.

I tried to add my own fighting noble to give me a better chance to deal with these threats. I have found out, however, that I don't do it well. I tend to keep my mounted nobles with the units and as a result I don't risk them and they are still operating as one. I tried solo charges but I haven't been very successful with these so far.

It is still an open question if I should go for units or characters. Both options have advantages but it is clear I have much more experience with units.

Magic & Shooting

Magic and shooting were always a problem for my light troops. So technically not much changed in that department. However, due to popularity of DE and WE armies I can assume I may have more chances to face one of their shooty variants. My current army may try to fight fire with fire as I still have some shooting that is the most efficient against T3, lightly armored troops. But it is not the solution that can guarantee a success as I would need to do something in addition to just playing a shooting match, where I am obviously at the disadvantage.

It also poses a dilemma. If I use my tougher troops such as heavy cavalry or lions to provide cover to lightly armored fast units I may still end up with losing many of the hard hitters in the process. If I don't then I lose the fast regiments as they may be the first targets.

Sometimes it pays off to use archers/sea guard as combat units but it does look desperate and I don't have that many numbers to soak the damage.

Increase of heavy cavalry may help too but at the same time WE showed that they have no problems with dealing with regular knights. Also, armor piercing bolts are not easy to dodge if in good numbers.

This is one of the challenges I still face and I am in the need of finding a better solution.

4 - Piling up strengths

I think it is quite general problem, not only for MSU force but any other army that wants to be good against all-comers and have some answers against as many threats as possible.

Every army has opponents it does not like to play against. If you have expensive character on flying monster you will not like to play against cannons. If you are undead or daemon, you would not like facing light council. The thing I believe I can exploit is the fact that if you are trying piling up strengths in your army it means it is quite one dimensional force. For example, wall of 1+ armor units means entire force of cavalry. If they are grouped in big units they are easier to divert. If in small units I can still hurt them in one on once combats.

I am not saying I have a perfect solution for every army. However, if I were to point at strengths of the army in general (no matter what are the individual choices) these would be:

1. Deployment - I can still out deploy the enemy in most cases. It is difficult phase of the game, crucial even hence it is very important to do it right
2. Maneuverability - long time ago a famous WE general, Machiara, wrote that maneuverability =/= speed. Infantry army can still be maneuverable and having more small units allows for that.
3. Flexibility - I build my army with combined arms idea in mind so that I have variety of tools at my disposal and can participate in the every phase of the game. I can choose defensive or offensive approach for particular game, depending on the enemy, terrain, scenario etc. I can even switch between the modes during the single game.

None of these things changed in the meantime. And to me they are the fundamentals of the game itself anyway. You need to deploy the regiments in the way that allows to use their strength to the fullest. You need to move them correctly so that they can do their job.

It is always difficult. It always requires flawless game. And I always need to bleed points to get the returns later. It is part of the challenge to achieve my goals and prevent the enemy from reaching his objectives.

Do you think there is something new in that department, after the release of new army books, that I haven't faced before?

5 - The usefulness of GW infantry

The reason I have GW wielding infantry is because they provide the attacks with the same strength no matter which round of combat. MSU is not suited for war of attrition provided it is done from the front.

It is true that these regiments lose against many tough units the enemy has there. However, you seem to assume I will fight them one on one. Also, while they are faster and/or have the longer charge range it does not mean they will always charge me. Or that will do so on their conditions.

I will not send my infantry against Monstrous cavalry alone, especially if attacking from the front. I made that mistake before. I would only go for exchange if I think it will benefit me in the long run.

I can take the charge but it does not mean I will do so recklessly, I will try to have a counter charge ready. This is how I hunted down Skullcrushers. It was often bloody but when it worked it also meant my units survived the game. Remember, that when fighting 2 units at the same time they divide their attacks and the chance that one or both are going to survive is higher.

I cannot avoid charges of pegasus riding characters but they will not necessarily risk attacking alone. If I have a champion, their struggle will be longer. And if I can see the opportunity I will trade points for time and space. That is why I have my units doubled.

If I understand correctly you suggest that Swordmasters and White Lions may not be useful part of the army. Please, let me know if that is the case.

6 - MSU bowline

I have been told so a few times already. I thought about it and I agree that many times I played defensively. What I like to change that into is the image of a patient hunter that lures the enemy into a trap and then attacks. Aggressive does not have to mean reckless. I want to be able to position my units for the combined charges so that I can destroy the enemy, not just hurt it.

Hence, I view my army as a combined arms force rather than defensive bowline. And if that is not supported I want to change the way I play with it and introduce changes to the list that will allow me to do so.

Ok, I have written quite an essay myself. I hope you will at least enjoy reading it. I will continue with army lists you have suggested in the separate post.

Cheers!

[SpellArcher]

Good read SM!

More please.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@ SpellArcher

Thanks! It is quite a long post so it is good to know you liked it (anything in particular that caught your attention, by the way?). For me it was an attempt to put my thoughts into text and to answer Marchosias. Hopefully I will be able to get something out of it.

@ Marchosias

Ok, a little more on the army lists you provided. I would like to add that one of the limitations I have are due to the models availability. I will comment on that with each list. As I don't paint particular fast but at the same time want to have fully painted army for the tournaments, I need to take that into account for long run. Of course there is nothing preventing me from testing particular armies when I play on UB.

7 - What would Marchosias do?

Example A

Loremaster: cca 300 points

BSB on foot, imba banner: 150
Noble on barded steed, fighty stuff: 140

8 silver helms, musician, champion: 204
21 archers, champion, musician: 230 (you can split these in two small units of course)
2x 5 reavers, bows: 2x 85

10 swordmasters, champ, musician: 150
2x 10 white lions: 2x 140
5 dragon princes, flaming banner, musician: 175

4 bolt throwers: 4x 70
15 sisters: 210
2x eagle: 2x 50

In order to assemble that army I would need 5 more Sisters and at least 1 more bolt thrower so not too bad. It is definitely the army that does it best at counter charging. Otherwise, synchronizing movement and clear line of sight for 4 bolt throwers and 2 units of Archers/Sisters can be troublesome. The range of bolt throwers would also be a motivation for the enemy not to stay away from combat for long. However, this is not the style I feel good with. And that was the reason I didn't win big sometimes as I feel it is passive. And I know I am not good at it.

Example B

Loremaster: cca 300 points

BSB on barded steed, fighty stuff: 170
Noble on barded steed, fighty stuff: 140

8 silver helms, musician: 204
5 silver helms, musician: 125
10 archers, musician: 110
2x 5 reavers, bows: 2x 85

2x 5 dragon princes, musician: 2x 155
8 dragon princes, musician, banner of eternal flame: 262
12 white lions, musician: 166

3 bolt throwers: 3x 70
2x 5 sisters: 2x 70
2x eagle: 2x 50

I like the idea of more cavalry units even if this army would require the biggest time investment into preparing the models. Currently I can afford up to 8 Silver Helms and 2 x 5 Dragon Princes and not all of them are painted yet. However, I feel cavalry force needs to move to be efficient. Sure, they don't have to do that recklessly.

In any case it is still counter-attacking force and I have mentioned above this is not the style I feel good with. In addition, I really like Swordmasters (surprise, surprise!) and I think they have place in the army.

Example C

Loremaster: 300

Fighty BSB on steed: 170
Fighty hero on steed: 140

8 silver helms, musician: 194
2x 5 silver helms, musician: 2x 125
2x reavers, bows: 2x 85

5 dragon princes, musician: 155
8 dragon princes, musician, banner of eternal flame: 262
3x 10 white lions, musician: 3x 140
2x 10 swordmasters, musician: 2x 140

2x eagle

This army is the closest to the very first MSU that was suggested to me by SmithF long time ago. The army looked more or less like:

Archmage
BSB

2 x 10 Archers, Musicians
2 x 20 Spears, Musicians, Standards
3 x 10 Swordmasters, Musicians
3 x 10 White Lions, Musicians
2 x 5 Dragon Princes, Musicians
3 x Great Eagle

It is indeed a fighting force but after I used it (with slight modifications due to the number of models available) I have found out I need a little bit of shooting to help, as you have mentioned with support elements of the enemy. It is, however, the closest to what I would like to play with.

After your analysis I came up with something like the following:

Loremaster, Armor of Fortune, Obsidian Lodestone - 310
BSB, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Lance, Dawnstone, Potion of Strength, Enchanted Shield - 176

15 Archers, Full Command - 180
8 Silver Helms, Full Command - 214
5 Reavers, Bows, Spears, Musicians - 105
5 Reavers, Bows, Spears, Musicians - 105

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 175
5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 155
12 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord - 176
12 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord - 176
10 White Lions, Musician, Champion - 150
10 White Lions, Musician, Champion - 150

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
5 Sisters of Avelorn - 70
5 Sisters of Avelorn - 70
Great Eagle

I will try to add more info on the list later.

Cheers!

[SpellArcher]

Very interesting list SM.

I've felt for a while now that you needed the second RBT for redundancy and just posing a bigger threat to big nasties.The Sisters are great and the Core archers round out a sound shooting phase that nevertheless doesn't make the army too defensive. Again, I feel the DP's are crucial for you. Speed, armour and decent hitting power.

I really like the characters, I'm just not sure they're going to mesh that well with the rest of the list. The Loremaster build is excellent, though I feel MR3 may be too much. Problem I can see is that this guy is your General and your Wizard, yet can fight. Keeping him in archers feels like underusing him. But in a GW unit it only takes one mistake, or one run of bad luck and you lose all that. That's why I still believe the PG are a good idea, they would allow him to move up more safely to bring his fighting power, leadership and spells to bear. He of course would make them virtually immune to wounding spells and help with high toughness enemies.

I'm suspicious of the Helms because even with the BSB they don't fight that well. I feel there's a good case for keeping him on foot. If he remains mounted, I'd be tempted to go with something like Seredain's Star Lance, Golden Crown, Charmed Shield and join DP's if necessary.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi SpellArcher,

Just a quick reply. I haven't given up on Phoenix Guard even if I would need to get my old, 5th ed metal models first and paint them. They are absolutely stunning and having a good excuse to include them would be great.

I still need a little more time to consider how would I want to include them. At the moment I simply tried to use what I have.

The reason I gave Loremaster MR(3) is that I don't have PG as a designated bodyguard unit. If I were to include them I would go for MR(2) and 4++ for him. At the same time I like the fact he grants 4++ against spells to the unit he joins.

BSB is still undecided. I would like to get mounted one as I think he can be more versatile. I don't necessary want to use him with Silver Helms, which on their own I would treat as medium cavalry. I was wondering about GW for him for some grinding power (not much but better than nothing) but he cannot use his Shield then. Star Lance is great but can only be used on the charge. When I had BSB with Reaver Bow and Potion of Strength I have found out he can actually be quite good in receiving charges too.

There is no perfect solution here but I would like to try new options and I like the idea of items that help the units in some way.

As to second unit of Sisters and Bolt Thrower I have found out that mixing small units of different types is not as good as having 2 of the same type. I love Shadow Warriors but I need Sisters more I think. Second Bolt Thrower is to compensate for the loss of shooting from Sea Guard and I think I should be able to use 2 without obstructing movement too much.

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi,

Some more details on the list I have posted recently:

Loremaster - I am really interested in seeing how is he going to perform if equipped with MR(3). His main roles are to lead the army and to cast spells. He is really good at it as his spells selection is fantastic. It is true that his flexibility comes with the problem how to protect him. He is not too bad in combat but obviously he is not fighting character and dedicated combat heroes will kill him easily. I have found out, however, that while he has different skills it does not mean he has to use them all in particular game. His flexibility means a lot when facing different opponents and choosing the right option for particular game.

In this configuration I could also buy him suggested Potion of Toughness. In order to accommodate Earthing Rod I would need to buy MR(2) instead and in that case it may not be as useful as MR(3) on any other unit that is not Phoenix Guard.

BSB - I want him mounted this time as I haven't tried that yet but I think he will be more flexible. Ideally, I would love to give him ward save but Talisman of Preservation is 45 points and that does not leave much in terms of other equipment. Golden Crown+Charmed Shield is an interesting combination, that gives him 2 times chance to survive cannon balls. Worth considering too.

I was also thinking about Star Lance but I want him to be more flexible and be able to have some grinding power. Hence option with Potion of Strength. I could give him GW but then I would probably take Dragonhelm to keep his 2+ armor save. I am still not decided what to take so I will check different options.

As I said I am not putting him with Silver Helms by default. It is a good unit for him of course but not the only option available.

Archers - I think I still need them. Their S3 bows are not going to win anything by themselves but now and again they proved they are important part of the team and can do more than just shooting.

Reavers - another great units, not the one that is famous for glorious charges but vital for any plans I make.

Silver Helms - new addition. I used them a few times before but not in the current configuration. They are my medium cavalry, possible BSB bodyguards. It would be interesting to see what they can do in the typical bretonnian formation as well. Even if without rank bonus. They can be used as additional regiment to swing the balance in the support units war but have potential to be used in more important combats. I am also very keen to paint these 5th edition models that have been waiting for their turn for so long!

Dragon Princes - same set up as always, very useful, possible bodyguards for BSB. I think I will use them with more freedom if without character among them. I have noticed I was very reluctant to move the cavalry forward if with Star Lance noble. I hope it will change now.

Swordmasters - I increased their numbers to 12. It is not much but I believe it will be helpful. Ideally I would like to have 14-15 of them for either 7 wide formation for maximum of attacks or 5 wide to benefit from attacks from 3 ranks on smaller frontage and still having ranks.

White Lions - I decided to get rid of the banners despite the fact they make the units stand out and that they added some additional effects. However, I have found out that by giving them Standard of Discipline I limit one unit to be bodyguards and as such I tend to keep them back. I will see how is it going to pay off in Blood and Glory but I would be able to use them more aggressively as well as I don't need to be afraid I am losing fortitude points.

I have also added champions as they are important for challenges even for Stubborn regiments.

Bolt Throwers - As I said earlier it is to compensate for the loss of Sea Guard. I think 2 is good choice for me as I am not going to compromise their abilities with movement of other troops while at the same time I will not be concerned with moving too slow. It provides redundancy and I have also noticed that staying to the rule of 2 served me very well in the past.

Sisters - I came back to 2 units at the expense of Shadow Warriors because I have found out 5 of them may not be enough to affect enemies which are ethereal or that sport regeneration thus helping archers and bolt throwers to inflict more damage.

Ealge - I would love to get second one too but unfortunately I run out of points. Of course I could try find these if I kept Swordmasters at 10 strong and some changes to the characters equipment so that is an option to consider as well.

Now if I were to include Phoenix Guard I would need to replace one unit of Swordmasters or Lions and either one bolt thrower or sisters. In particular if I wanted to have 14 PG with Full Command. I didn't include magic banners although Standard of Discipline is a good option here. I am also ok with smaller unit if needs be. I still need to think about it though.

Cheers!

[SpellArcher]

One idea for the Loremaster SM (especially if you did go for the PG at some point) would be to take MR2 and Scroll of Shielding (as you would only have 20pts of the allowance left). So you get the ability to protect any unit from an awkward Doombolt or such. There is also the point that MR2 protects the Loremaster himself from snipes etc. as well as MR3 would. My own experience is that 3-wound characters with 4+ Wards are actually reasonably survivable in combat, especially given the range of buffs and hexes available here. The unit he is in is more important IMHO.

I take your point about the flexibility of Potion of Strength. The Dawnstone (and that fantastic 1+ RR) does give him good options for solo action but he has to be careful here. Any war machine is a threat plus things like Waywatchers, magic missiles that ignore armour etc.. I'm liking the Helms more now. The problem is though I feel that they are another passable combat unit rather than a powerful one.

I really like the Rare set-up. Very good arguments for the second unit of Sisters. I think the army as you've written it is decent. If you draft the PG in, I feel you would need to drop 2 elite infantry units, to keep the list balanced. The advantage of course would be you get more durable PG and maybe squeeze that second eagle in.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Been a minute since I checked your progress Sir, and wow it's changed. Two eagles are exponentially better than one ^_^

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Ele,

Well, the army naturally evolves but as always I cannot have everything I want. Maybe I should start playing 3k games? They guys at wargamerau suggested that it might be good idea with new characters allowance.

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@ Spell Archer

I apologize for accidentally omitting your comment.

The idea of scroll of shielding is very good one and I like it also because it is less common still very handy item to have. I really like MR items being able to affect units and I wonder why it took me so long to see that

I am aware that BSB is vulnerable to warmachines or anything that can ignore armor save. In this particular configuration I simply wanted him to be able to fight once in a while. I can, of course, always give him 4++ ward to make him better protected.

I must admit that it is very hard to let go any of my elites and I haven't figured out yet how to do it if I decided to do so. In the meantime:

New character allowance - How to adapt?

Having a break from gaming helps to spend little more time on army list considerations. I was trying to use the experience I got in the meantime to address issues I had in my games. While I always try to change my deployment and/or used tactics first, I am not against changes to the army list.

Apart from my own experience new FAQ naturally made me think how to adapt my army list in the view of new Lords/Heroes allowance. Powerful characters already posed a threat to the army I field so having to face more of these would definitely be even more challenging. In fact, I haven't had a chance to play against some of the existing character heavy armies anyway so being able to tackle that problem is a good thing to have.

I must say that by checking the armies of the enemies such as pegasus riders DE, was inspiring as well. I was jealous of their speed and maneuverability. I observed that increase of fast moving, often flying models in other armies as well. Check the reports I wrote from the games again Imperial Air Force. There are some Dwarven armies sporting quite a significant amount of gyrocopters (check Danish ETC list for example) as well. Last but not least, Mal's list with a few eagle riders was very inspiring as well.

That all resulted in the following list:

Archmage, level 4, Earthing Rod, Obsidian Lodestone - Lore of Heavens - 290

BSB, Dragon Armor, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Sword of Might - 150
Noble, Great Eagle, Heavy Armor, Shield, Lion Cloak, Star Lance, Potion of Foolhardiness, Dragonhelm, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant - 180
Noble, Great Eagle, Dragon Armor, Lance, Potion of Strength, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone - 186

14 Archers, Full Command - 170
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears - 136
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears - 136
6 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command - 168

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame - 175
5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 155
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord - 150
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord - 150
10 White Lions, Musician, Guardian - 150

Eagle Claw - 70
Eagle Claw - 70
Great Eagle - 50

Total: 2382

I took the Archmage with Heavens purely to try something new. I love the Loremaster but I wanted to play with different magic and I have never used heavens before. I think that the spells it has would help my army. Re-rolls of 1's to hit and to wound will help the elite infantry in particular. Iceshard proved to be very useful already. Forcing the enemy to re-roll 6's helps too. And some ranged attacks in the form of thunderbolt, chainlightining and comet can be useful in any game. I do lack spells against good armor though. Thunderbolt or Chainlightning both hit with respectable S6 but against 1+ armor and some high T targets it may not be enough.

I can still mount BSB on a steed but I would need to change his shield for something else then. At the moment he is ok as I used him before and he can be protected by the infantry too.

Two eagle mounted nobles started as steed mounted ones but then I managed to get some points by removing Sisters and one unit of Lions and I had points for eagles. It is still a dilemma I need to solve.

Eagle riders have the advantage in:
- 3W instead of 2W
- T4 instead of T3
- flying

Steed mounted nobles have some advantages too:
- 1+ save instead of 2+
- cost less
- can join cavalry units for protection

The equipment is also something I haven't decided on yet. Star Lance and Potion of Foolhardiness is a great combination and should help hunting down some of the individual characters or small but heavily armored units. Dragonhelm is mainly to get that 2+ armor save but 2++ against flaming attacks is always handy. Pennant is just an addition but 5++ against flying models may help.

Potion of Strength is there for flexibility I talked about previously. It can either pack S9 attacks one turn or S6 on the charge and S7 the following combat. He also has slightly better protection due to re-rollable 2+. However, they are both vulnerable to anything that ignores armor saves or has high strength attacks.

Again, I could simply go for Great Eagle, 4++ ward save and possibly 1+ against shooting with some lion cloaks instead but that would mean "only" S6 and not that much of a threat to enemy characters or even heavy armored units.

I changed core to include champions for cavalry units. It is to be able to trap individual characters so that I could charge, challenge and hold on steadfast. It is a risky tactics with Ld8 only but it is still viable option.

All infantry units also have champions now at a cost of a few banners but I think these small elite infantry regiments would benefit more from champions than from banners. I had to let one special unit go to make room for heroes and I chose Lions.

I also removed Sisters from the list. In theory I can still have 1 bolt thrower and 1 small unit of sisters but I am afraid I need more anti-fliers artillery and in that case bolt throwers might be more viable.

As always there are hard choices as I would love to keep the Sisters (especially that I am painting them at the moment!). Of course the solution would be to play games at higher point level and I know some players consider that (tournament organizers among them as well).

My initial idea was also to include level 1 (preferably level 2) with metal magic simply to have access to Searing Doom to be able to have one more tool against heavily armored targets. I can find room for that mage but only if I make characters mounted on steeds and not on eagles. Bare naked level 1 can also be included if I remove one of the bolt throwers.

Of course now I have to find out how to convert these eagle riders

Cheers!

[SpellArcher]

Scroll of Shielding just strikes me as excellent for an elf army SM because things like Magic Missiles hurt a lot and no matter which unit is targeted, you can help it out.

I like the eagle riders. They definitely give the army an extra dimension. Not sure the Heavens mage is as good as the Loremaster here because of number of spells but he looks to be worth a try. I feel the BSB doesn't excel at anything and there should be a clearer role for him but I'm not sure what that should be.

You might miss the shooting. I would suggest dropping the Helms for more archers but I know you're dying to try them out. Could you get by on only one unit of Reavers?

[Ferny]

Hi SM,

Interesting musings. I'd have three concerns with your new list:

1. You now have a very fast cavalry wing and a slow infantry core. I know you always had both components in your army, but with more infantry you could either create a double line or have cavalry flank round and create a nice diagonal battleline, both used to great effect...but with a lesser focus on infantry I'd worry that they'll get left behind and not be able to contribute as much as before. (I know you get fast heroes as a trade off though, so the test as ever will be in combat - how does the new list perform).

2. For me the joy of MSU was the sheer number of units and the glorious multi-charge which a good execution of them enables. Your new list, while undoubtably MSU, is now fewer SU (FSU?) so I think it might be harder for you to pull of your signature move. Sure, if the whole meta moves to have fewer units then it should still work, but what about armies which don't (off the top of my head, wood elves are likely contenders here, though I'm sure there will be others...also there will be players who do not follow the 50% lords trend and may still present more traditional armies).

3. I've pondered up a third one which kinda relates to the others, but with a bigger focus on characters. I think part of the reason you (and I) ran with a loremaster is that he's a very efficient character. I think it's the same reason we've avoided a secondary caster (and caddy) - they cost points, and their role is broadly already covered by the lord-level caster. That's why, certainly for me, I generally kept to minimum characters: caster general and BSB...it allows more of an army, more of the M bits of MSU. When you adopted Nasher and/or Eddie it cost you a unit - you gained a niche role (e.g. starlance) but lost some resilience which units give.

I'm currently trying some character heavy lists to take advantage of their synergy (e.g. the Annointed High Magic PG 'star' in my escalation league, the flying circus for an upcoming tourney and Shadow Guard thread for a Swedish tournament). One of the things I like about these builds is the synergy - all the characters gain protection from MR or high wards or CoC or BotWD or whatever. Also, annointed I'm finding is really helping his fellow characters and unit by tanking attacks and challenges.

By contrast, your characters are reasonably likely to not be played together...they're there to fill a different role, to plug a gap in what the rest of the force can deliver I think. Your new approach reminds me a bit of dark elves (who have had a lot of success with it!), with lots of cavalry and fast characters...but with a critical difference that dark elves have *even more* manouverability through fly and more fast cav/fast cav characters (and more magic through warlocks ) and their infantry is more likely to be avoidance than heavy hitters (e.g. shades, xbows, maybe some witches/corsairs), so they're both less reliant on their infantry and suffer less from point 1.

I wonder whether to get the most out of your characters it might be worth going even further and mounting them all (or maybe all bar a bunker mage) and taking almost/absolutely no infantry? I realise that's a huge change (and probably not viable with your current (painted) model range, but there's the logic at least...but if you have a good way of dealing with point 1 then point 3 might be largely null .

[Ferny]

Just had a completely different thought...but with all the points you're spending on characters now, and yet still maintaining MSU, you have the points available to fight fire with fire and to take a dragon! Whether it be a moon AM to keep solid magic or a full on star dragon prince (maybe with a Lv2 High Scroll mage for some magic support) or - perhaps less viable but very fun - a dragonmage. It'd be very thematic with your two units of DPs, and now you're taking lots of champions you can challenge out with them, and actually your mounted and shooting support elements (well, entire MSU force) could well complement it really well - it'd be a very distinct way to play the dragon. The only big problem I'd see is lack of target saturation, which maybe would point towards High AM on MoonDragon with scroll/book, 4++ and ironcurse icon?

(I know this isn't really with reference to your original list, just getting giddy with ideas ).

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys,

Apologies for not replying for so long.

@ SpellArcher

There are very nice items I would love to have but I can allocate only a single arcane item and for me Earthing Rod is really essential.

Eagle riders are great to have, I still think about their equipment (for example, maybe great weapons should be added for better performance in subsequent rounds of combat?) but the main thing is to learn how to use them to their fullest potential. I have already noticed they attract attention so using terrain will be crucial.

I can already tell you that I was not able to use Heavens efficiently during the last tournament. The reason is the same as before with a single level 4. He simply didn't put enough pressure on the enemy. With only 4 spells it is really easy to decide for the enemy which to dispel. What is more, I often had 2 spells that were not useful at range but only in close combat. They did help but it reduced the threat to 2 spells at a given time. I think that in order to utilize level 4 in general and heavens in particular, more wizards are required.

I agree about BSB. He is not too bad in general but he does not excel at anything either. At the moment I need to stick to BSB on foot though due to lack of mounted model. Nothing I cannot do something about it but I would love to have a model painted to the higher standard than rank and file and that takes time.

I haven't missed shooting yet, even the lack of magical attacks was not that bad but I am sure it might still be the issue. As always, the problem is one cannot have everything and it is all about finding the balance one is relatively comfortable with so that lacking in one department can be mitigated by actions in other phases of the game.

I am very fond of fast cavalry and would hate to leave one unit at home. What is more, as I hope to demonstrate in some of the reports, having 2 units of reavers allowed me to use them more aggressively and contribute to the combined charges significantly.

@ Ferny

I didn't have a chance to test Silver Helms version yet and I used Spearelves instead so I had only one infantry unit left. As always, coordinating the units with different speed is a challenge but it depends also on the opponent. In general it is not something that cannot be done though.

The thing is that I didn't drop the amount of units that much. I lost Sisters and Lions and gained 2 fast heroes. In terms of deployment drops that of course is more significant difference. But my initial experience after recent tournament is that the speed of the eagle riders makes up for it. The combined charges are still possible as I plan to demonstrate with the reports!

It is always a trade off unfortunately unless you want to increase the point allowance for the army. I try to treat my eagle riders as units of 1. Although they can still join the units if necessary (which I should remember as an option). They are more vulnerable to war machines but as I said, you gain something by losing something else.

I thought about all mounted army as a concept and I would like to try that at some stage (maybe on UB as I don't have models available at the moment). It would be a challenge indeed but I think it will be worth trying. It does require more thinking as the entire army would give up grinding power Swordmasters provide and it would probably operate in a totally different manner.

As to the dragon, do you suggest swapping 4 characters for 1 dragon rider of some kind?

I will have more comments on the list and changes I have made at some stage but I would like to complete 5 reports first. What is more I would need to create an updated list fast so that I can paint some new models I may need for the tournament at the end of January 2015 I hope I will be able to attend.

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Greetings!

After MiniMe tournament I decided I would like to have some flying characters in my army but I also want to get back to Loremaster as I feel I don't have enough spells to put the pressure on the enemy. The challenge is that I don't have much time to paint and I still need to fix the models for the tournament on 24-26th January.

With that in mind I may have limited choices and may, for example, be forced to use one of the nobles as a mounted character instead.

In the tournament report Galharen suggested I should take frosty instead of flying noble. I am sure frosty is a very useful model and I admit I would love to paint one too. But I am not yet convinced I want to use one. I am more inclined to add something different, something that was not used much before.

However, as I have a few days to decide which army to take we can still do some brainstorming. The aim is to use MSU force with Loremaster as a general and two mobile nobles I tested during the most recent tournament. But I would be interested in your ideas for MSU force. I will consider any options but please, take into account the fact I might not be able to realize some of them due to the fact I don't have all the models available (or at least not at the moment).

I will post my list soon anyway but I would appreciate your ideas so feel free to add some!

Cheers!

[Ferny]

Can you give us a run down of what models you have available (or at a push could make available). It would be useful to have this restriction in mind.

I think if you do go for a single eagle rider rather than two (due to models) then charmed shield+golden helm or full on 4++ are important because he's your biggest war machine target...and I'm guessing you want to give him at least star lance type of offensive power so 4++ is out?

That still leaves dawnstone, enchanted shield, PoS and lance for a mounted noble which is my favourite 'pure' build so far (i.e. not support, e.g. TOTS or MR caddy). It's pretty tanky, especially with dragon armour, fast, and hits hard. No magic weapon vs ethereals, but equally no magic weapon against BotWD so... I think this guy would fit into any roster and if you're planning to take a mounted noble I don't think he can be bettered, though there are other options for similar effects perhaps depending on your meta e.g. ogre blade, 1+; 2+,4++, starlance+TOTS+enchanted shield?...