HE MSU in the Old World - Game 1 - 2000 vs Warriors of Chaos - 2024/03/04

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Re: MSU HE - CanCon 2015 preparation

#1051 Post by pk-ng »

Maybe a bit late to game but have you considered Anointed of Asuryan? Free MR(2) and free 6++ to the unit (essentially giving them at least 4++).
ItP could be an issue
But overall I think the's a decent buy but not sure how expensive he is under "swedish".
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Re: MSU HE - CanCon 2015 preparation

#1052 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Do you suggest Anointed as a replacement for the Loremaster?
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Re: MSU HE - CanCon 2015 preparation

#1053 Post by pk-ng »

Nope as replacement for one of your mounted nobles. You can give the Anointed something like dragonhelm Giant Blade Dawnstone to increase killyness + with all the add benefits you don't really need to worry about MR on ur LM instead giving him some ward (like 5++ or 4++ -> 3++, 2++ against magic.
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Re: MSU HE - CanCon 2015 preparation

#1054 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hm, that would help infantry units that are probably the most vulnerable sometimes. Will need to check point costs. On the other hand he is still an infantry character. I really need to expand to 3k battles :D
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Re: MSU HE - CanCon 2015 preparation

#1055 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

The releases of End Times as well as lack of solid information on the future of Warhammer meant that I lost motivation to do much Warhammer in any of its aspects. Add to that significant interference from real life and no wonder that I neglected this topic for a few months. Initially, I intended to do a review of performance of the army I used on CanCon but time passed by and I could not force myself to do so. The purpose of such review is to analyze the army list and ever changing game to be able to adapt and move on. But how one can adapt when there might be no future at all?

The problem for me was that I really like this game, I still have some ideas for painting, modelling and gaming and I would love to share them. So I could not simply abandon Warhammer until it is clear what is going on and use my spare time for other hobbies. Yes, I started thinking about other games as plan B. I have some tanks for Flames of War and I actually had my very first game with it. Jimmy is heavily advertising X-Wing and I must say there are many advantages of that system, one of these being huge support the company that produces the game directs towards their players.

But I was lost as what to do. It didn't help that the forum activity decreased either. Not sure if it was due to the same reasons as mine or people simply post less.

Somehow I rekindled my interest by deciding that no matter what I will try to finish painting and modelling 8th edition army. My force is all painted but contains units from different eras. There are models painted with and without metallic paints. There are metal and plastic miniatures. From afar it looks consistent enough but I wanted to exchange old units with new versions where I could further improve my painting skills and simply paint the units that have waited for years for their turn.

One of the reasons I regained my motivation is the announcement of Hobby Masters tournament that is going to take place along Australian Masters in December. I have no chance to participate in tournaments now so I cannot try and repeat the success from 2013 when I qualified for this great event. But Hobby Masters is still a chance and it might be even better idea whatsoever!

For those interested in both tournaments, here is the link to the topic containing initial player packs for both events:

2015 Warhammer Masters and Hobby Masters

In short, Hobby Masters is more about showing off and playing narrative scenarios than typical win at all cost tournament style event. While I consider myself a tournament player and I like the competitive aspect a lot, there is much more to Hobby Masters than winning games. In my opinion it is about setting up a great story, showing magnificent armies and winning the game (yes, it is still about winning :)) but in as great style as one can. It's all about setting up a stage for epic stories where scenario is written during the game.

I want to use existing units and simply finish paining these I started and exchange some old miniatures for new ones to improve the cohesion. I want to continue with the Outcast theme and MSU aspect. So in order to make this army look better I also need to add a few things that simply look good. For example, banners! My small units might suddenly get more expensive by simple adding full commands now.

At the same time I keep observing how the game changes. It seems to me that it took something like last 6 months to do so but it is possible I simply noticed it in that time. I noticed an enormous emphasis on ETC, it seems in particular true on Universal Battle where everybody seems to play ETC style. Combine that with 50% characters allowance, Lore of Undead and new units from End Time series and you have a new game now.

There are more heroes in the armies, often two level 4's and/or flying characters that are incredibly fast but hard to kill. You have more flying units in the form of Morghasts and Nurgle Flies. You have Putrid Blightkings and Stormfiends. The armies seem to be either faster, hitting harder or having much greater shooting and magic potential.

The question then is, how to adapt, at least for time being before we see what 9th edition (or whatever it is going to be) is going to look like?

I don't want to change the concept, I think I can make MSU work even if it looks like a huge challenge now. I don't want to invest in new models either. No one knows what is going to stay in the future version. My aim would be to keep 8th edition force no matter if I can transfer it to 9th or not. To add to the challenge I want to combine that list with the aim of having a chance to qualify to Hobby Masters.

As I said I will need to to use what I have and possibly improve it in terms of how it looks. I cannot aim at a huge overhaul and I am ok with the situation where I will apply with the force that is still in some kind of transition.

I will start with review of the army list from CanCon though, as it will be a combined project, catch up with changes to the game and create a nicer looking force.

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1056 Post by Loriel »

wow. Great write up.

At first I was getting feeling that this was sort of farwell, but then it turned out to be... well not quite like it ;)

I totally get what you say with uncertain future, but for me that is really baffling thing. If the 8th we are loving is about to go away I would personally want to play it as much as possible before it does dissapear. Little bit hearing you have cancer and life expectency of 1 month. [sarcasm](naturally that time would go for warhammer :P)[/sarcasm]

I do understand idea that some doesn't want to invest new units, in my own personal point of view I don't have much need for extra models as I pretty much have all the models I have needed for about 4 years ;)

If you look something really great to play with tons of athmosphere and excellent community Necromunda and yaktribe forum is number 1 place for it. Sadly mordheim project has taken them much more time than originally anticipated, but it is coming... ;)

---

for the actual MSU issue for huge costly characters MSU is rather ok way to tackle since they will have harder time to generate enough victory points to justify investment, leaving the rest army little weaker for msu to actual tackle.
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1057 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Loriel,

I didn't expect such a quick comment and thought I would be able to add more about the army list performance and some ideas I want to follow as well as a discussion of the potential enemy I might be facing soon. So thanks a lot for your post!

Let me start with one aspect I like about Warhammer as it is now (or at least how I see it). For me it is a game of relatively well defined formations and rectangular units. In order to win you need to break that formation and rule movement phase to create opportunities to win combats decisively. You can argue that it is not that type of the game anymore with so many flying units that intermix battle lines, heavy hitters that can take on units alone and shooting/magic so powerful it can decimate entire regiments.

For me, the ideal system GW has every produced was Warmaster. Unfortunately, the community for it is very small and not as active and organized as for Warhammer. Otherwise I would have played 10mm. I actually own some Warmaster Historical miniatures with at least one full army to assemble, paint and ready to go. I keep promising myself I will do it just for the sake of having nicely looking force for a display cabinet. :)

Because of that skirmish systems are not attractive for me. I may play X-Wing as I hear it is a nice game you can start playing properly right from the beginning as an additional option for casual games with friends. Star Wars Armada also seems to be interesting, if only because I like the idea of the game that looks like aircraft carriers and planes to smash each other much like during WWII on Pacific I read so much about. It's Star Wars after all too! But these are never going to be replacements, simply additions.

I would sooner start playing Flames of War regularly because it has a huge community and the game itself looks very interesting. However, it is totally different concept (obviously) and even if you can do great job in terms of painting it is not the same level of showing off as in the case of fantasy.

As you can see I look for some mix of different aspects in the game and so far Warhammer ticked majority of the boxes for me.

But as you say, sometimes acknowledging something may end motivates you to enjoy it until it lasts! I am very curious what this last chapter is going to look like and if it is going to be truly last one or simply new beginning.

Ok, lets move to the CanCon army list review!
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1058 Post by SpellArcher »

SM I believe the ETC focus is largely because that event is pretty set to go ahead with 8th edition rules in August so anyone playing (or supporting) has a reliable focus for their efforts. For the rest of us it's a bit harder to generate enthusiasm maybe. Though I have a tournament next month I'm looking forward to.
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1059 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

CanCon - Army List review

I enjoyed my games at CanCon and improved in comparison to the performance the previous year but it was still worse than my best score from two years before. There might have been different reasons for that but as always, eliminating my own mistakes is crucial and I tried to identify them in respective reports. Here, I want to have a look at each element of the army list as a base to further considerations and possible evolution.

Loremaster, Obsidian Amulet, Armor of Fortune, Earthing Rod - 320

Very good character, very versatile, I would miss him if I left him a home (which happened during MiniMe tournament). Earthing Rod was very useful saving him from cascading twice but I had bad luck in my last game when I rolled cascade twice in a row and I lost him anyway. Combination of Amulet and Armor (i.e. ward save) came to use only once against Lord Kroak but I assume it may still be handy if I face level 4 Death mage or more magic missiles.

He is the most expensive character in the army so extra protection is a good idea but there are different options to consider and I am not sure yet which way to go. I do know he stays and he needs his Earthing Rod!

BSB, Dragon Armor, Great Weapon, Talisman of Preservation – 154

I equipped him this time to do one job, wave his flag as long as possible. Great Weapons was there just in case. But he was not to get into combats and be there to grant re-rolls. Because of that he didn't perform any spectacular actions. However, lack of the re-rolls due to not being in range cost me a few units.

I miss the opportunity of doing something with my BSB in addition to his priceless re-rolls though.

Noble, Great Eagle, Dragon Armor, Star Lance, Potion of Foolhardiness, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar – 184

Eagle rider was added to the army although I felt bad when I used IoB Griffon rider as a proxy. It did look good despite very basic painting I applied to the model. The combination of speed and no-save, high-strength attacks was what helped hunting down certain elements in the enemy armies but I am sure I haven't used him to the fullest potential.

He is a good addition but if I were to use one I would need to provide a proper model.

Noble, Barded Steed, Heavy Armor, Lance, Lion Cloak, Potion of Strength, Dawnstone, Charmed Shield – 149

As I could not provide a second model on a flying monster to act as an eagle rider in the way I did during previous tournament I decided to go for a typical knight. Both nobles were to be used as units of one and assist regiments only to get some protection against shooting/magic until they would get into position to attack. It is a very important assumption for me because their combined cost equals two regular units or even three smaller ones.

What I observed, however, is that I am more reluctant to move units aggressively as long as the heroes are there as I didn't want to get into range of magic missiles or similar threat. When I did I sometimes lost them. As such I felt I limit myself more than I help the army. I am not saying they were not helpful, quite contrary as their extra strength attacks was what I needed to combat chaos chariots, for example.

But I had mixed feelings as to what are the consequences of using them. Basically, I needed the option to move more aggressively but I became even more cautious. Hm.

14 Archers, Full Command
14 Archers, Full Command

Relatively good fire base, helping in fighting enemy support units. Full command groups added for the purpose of swift reform, challenges and fortitude. They actually look pretty good with banners too and can be decent in combat against certain enemies. I like them, I think they have place in many armies and I am going to keep them. The models are old but they are great sculpts from Jes Goodwin. I might improve banners though.

6 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Herald, Bows, Spears
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Herald, Bows, Spears

The idea to increase the number of riders in a unit to 6 and upgrading one to a champion was to be able to trap single characters. I wanted to have a chance to charge in a single rank then challenge and then be able to hold on steadfast. I had no opportunity do so this tournament at all. I had only single flying lord to deal with in game one and even then I could not pull it off.

I also had to pay for that because every time I used ER as diverters they gave up more points to the enemy. While it is not massive, 31 points per unit adds up quickly.

I am considering going back to 5 reavers with musician but full equipment as I used to run them before.

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame – 175
5 Dragon Princes, Musician – 155 (-10)

Fast and hard hitter of the army they usually did their job. I lost them sometimes but the way I see it I simply made mistakes. Like when I charged PG with Razor Banner without enough support. Adding knightly character was suppose to help them tackle tougher opponents. I haven't used Flaming Attacks much this time but I think I will keep the banner even if sometimes it makes them vulnerable to characters with Dragonhelm or Dragonbane Gem.

They are going to stay for sure. In fact, it was suggested that maybe I should employ another unit!

10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord – 150
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord – 150

One of my most favorite units :) Despite lack of re-rolls they still have important role to play. They were instrumental in defeating Chaos Warriors and Beastmen. On the other hand they completely disappointed against Flamespyre Phoenix and were shot to pieces by Orcs and Goblins.

I will keep them as I am determined to use them better but I have to acknowledge that they have more enemies now. I consider giving them banners for the purpose of looking nice but I understand I might be giving away more points because of that.

10 White Lions, Musician, Guardian, Gleaming Pennant – 165

Another elite infantry that has hard time. I am even more convinced they should cooperate with Swordmasters even closer now. They are an example of my rule of two meaning that I need two units of something to make them work. I gave them flank guarding duties but ironically, their Gleaming Pennant didn't work and I failed my re-rolls anyway!

Both types of units need more help from magic now too in order to perform their duties and simply inflict damage. I also need to use them way more aggressive, often sacrificing one so that another can get in the right position.

Stubborn as well as S6 are still great assets but I may need more of these again.

Eagle Claw – 70
Eagle Claw – 70

These were always very good, providing nice ranged attacks. They definitely are going to stay. But I don't intend to add more.

Great Eagle – 50

Very useful as always but since I had only one I was more careful how I was using it. And often used Reavers instead. I need second one back!

All in all I felt I was going into similar trap as when long time ago I tried to look for my own path with the use of cavalry prince. I started adding heroes at the expense of units. As a result I lost the balance and performed even worse. Of course with practice I would be able to use characters in a more efficient way but I do feel the lack of units.

Because I don't have time and because the future is unknown I don't intend to introduce many new units. That means I need to develop new approach with the army. It may be very difficult because I am looking for the way to keep being maneuverable with infantry as a crucial part of the force I use.

Next: the "new" army list suggestions
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1060 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for the comment, SA!

Yes, you are definitely correct and I would have been surprised if the situation was any different. However, because many players follow ETC preparation it also means they fell into the ETC mindset and even when they play in singles events or just because they like the players pack but are not going to participate in any ETC related tournaments, they use the armies designed for that environment.

So in order to move on I need to be ready to play against such forces, on ETC tables and with much smaller brackets for points.
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1061 Post by Jimmy »

Hey SM

Firstly I've only just now managed to read about the hobby masters and I must say I'm impressed however it's a shame the idea wasn't brought to light many years ago because I believe that is such a great way to bridge the gap for people who are the hobby extremists rather than the gamers amongst us. I sincerely hope it generates the interest for it to perhaps continue each year but spread around providing what happens with Warhammer in the near future.

Looking forward to seeing what you have in mind for the new army list. :)
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1062 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Jimmy,

The idea came from Mr. Roy Diprose himself who, I think, got tired of winning the best painted army awards every time he showed up at the events and decided to organize something that would give a chance to some other participants too! :) At the moment the details are not fully decided as both events will probably be organized with 9th edition rules set, unless it happens to be utter crap.

However, if that event takes off I am sure there will be enough people willing to show their skills and it will be even greater motivation for showing off the beautiful armies they might hide at the moment from the outside world. And I am sure it will help to generate more interest in other aspects of the hobby too.

As to the ideas with the new army list I decided to get back to basics so to speak and put my trust in units again. At least for the first iteration. I will also comment on modelling/painting options for each of them.

Back to Basics

Loremaster - 320

I assumed he has the same equipment I gave him for CanCon but it can be changed of course. It is just for reference point, i.e. how many points I will have for other things.

I have a beautiful model converted for me when I participated in Secret Santa. I do have an option, however, to paint a very nice model I always wanted to add to the army. However, it would take me some time to paint him ( as I would want to make him the best painted model of the army) and as such I would probably leave him at the very end.

Core Units - 600

At the moment I would go for 2 x Archers with command groups and 2 x Reavers. I can also replace a single unit of Archers with Lothern Sea Guard because they are much better painted and would look nicer for sure.

Another option is to include Silver Helms either as fifth unit and then I would need to make Archer regiments smaller or replacing one of them. However, I would most likely use Silver Helms I have already painted when I finish new 5 strong regiment of Dragon Princes (see below). That means they would be of a slightly different painting scheme but are heavily converted. They would need some fixing too.

2 x 5 Dragon Princes - 330

I have enough models of 5ed metal dragon princes to create a new unit. I would need to create at least one banner for them and I am considering upgrading second unit with it too, again, purely for the looks. However, there was a time when I considered Banner of Swiftness too so that is also an option as M10 heavy cavalry is a great thing to have.

2 x 10 Swordmasters - 300

At this stage I assume bladelords and musicians, no banners. As I have mentioned before, their life is harder now but I simply like them a lot and will do my best to find a way to make them work more efficiently.

I don't plan any painting for them (unless I decide to give them banners) but given time I might try to paint some new models.

2 x 10 Lions - 300

I would give them banners instead of champions (even if champions can be sometimes better idea). I have one unit made from most recent plastics and would love to paint second one to replace old metals. I actually started painting some models for this new unit but they still need a lot of work.

2 x Bolt Thrower - 140

I have two brand new plastic Bolt Throwers (thanks Jimmy!) which I plan to assemble, paint and put on nice scenic bases. I think they would look great in that way and should not take as much time as any other unit.

2 Great Eagles - 100

The models are painted but I might re-base them just to make them look nicer.

2 x 5 Sisters - 140

I want them back because I started painting them (I think I finished 5) and with their flaming bows and arrows they can look fantastic. I can also try to make them fit into a single unit of 10, I will have to decide which option to choose as both have some merits. I also wanted to add them because their shooting abilities are very handy against certain armies. Flaming and magical attacks are always handy.

If I were to go for that list I would have points left for a BSB only. Might be mounted but only on a steed. His equipment is an open question now. Who knows, maybe I can go back to Reaver Bow again! :)

From the point of view of modelling and painting (as I have mentioned above) I can aim at:

1. 5 Ellyrian Reavers
2. 5 Dragon Princes
3. 10 White Lions
4. 2 Bolt Throwers
5. 10 Sisters

Assuming around 1 month per unit I should be able to get these ready just for the application period some time in October.

From the gaming point of view this list does not yet offer any new options. After all I used something very similar almost at the start. It means I would need to do more work in trying to learn new tricks with it in order to have a chance against modern armies.

Now, there are a few ideas I was considering:

1. Griffon Riding BSB

That is quite crazy but one reason to think about it was that such a character has 18" range in which he can allow Ld re-rolls. It happened so many times that my BSB was too far away. Now that would be easier to get him in range.

Of course he can be harder to hide now but I thought about it and came to the following conclusion. If I give him both, Charmed Shield and Golden Crown, then he would have a decent chance to survive some cannon shots while in the open but I would make sure he would use any cover available. What is more, if he were to lose his mount I would be able to keep him on foot as normal and avoid losing points too!

The problem is that it in itself might be a limitation. If I had to stay in cover I would not be able to keep up with the army and thus extra range would not be in use anyway. And I would probably not use him aggressively either. Which is losing his combat potential.

Cool factor due to having a griffon rider would be great of course!

In order to accommodate him I would need 300+ points total meaning I would need to get rid of one of the units, either Lions or Sisters. In both cases it is one less unit to paint but one more model (although basic work is done already).

2. Mounted Noble as a General

That is another idea to diversify the risks. Loremaster is very expensive now already and with bonus points for him as a general it is even more painful when I lose him. If I had noble as a general I could potentially keep less equipment on loremaster, making him cheaper and tool up the noble to be a tank of a sort.

Again, to accommodate extra noble I would need to let one unit go. The advantage is that I already have a suitable model painted.

That's all for today as I think I have written quite a lot already :)

Cheers!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Thu May 28, 2015 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1063 Post by Jimmy »

1. Griffon Riding BSB
I think from a pure aesthetics point of view, this option wins hands down. From a table top point of view the one thing your army has lacked (and I use that word very sparingly because your battle record speaks for itself) is a centre piece model. This addresses that problem right away and secondly will give you a good test and something other than a cavalry model or infantry model to paint.

Also there is certainly some room to go crazy with a conversion, do something interesting on the base and/or play around with more painting techniques which by rights you are certainly developing as well.

:D
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1064 Post by Andros123 »

Hey SM,

I completely both agree and sympathize with you on the whole subject of where Warhammer is going at the moment. My area fields a lot of decent and competitive players, who mostly play ETC or even heavier comp. I also consider myself to be a competitive player and my favorite system is ETC for reasons like 5-dice cap on magic, line of sight rules, cap on unit sizes and such. However now that many people are playtesting their lists for an actual ETC team event, the lists tends to be very skewed to the point where it just isn't fun playing. I'm a fan of balancing armies that have a big toolbox to handle other stuff, not just these one sided armies that are so matchup dependent. At least it makes for a much more fun game in my experience.

With regards to the end times release, it has also caused me a drop in motivation for playing. I just really don't like the whole 50% lords and heroes. As you say, there are so many flying characters out there, that you don't really feel you are actually playing against an army. Flying stuff also ignores a lot of the tactical aspects of warhammer. They can just reform and face where ever they like for "free". Further, they are immune to double flees and such.
I can't count how many times a chaos lord or hero have slammed into one of my blocks and forced it to take it's break test every round until I broke. It just feels like the game get's more polarized, which isn't good IMO.
Another impact on the game that the 50% lords and heroes have had is in the magic department. Many games that I've played gets decided before combat happens, because so many armies can field a very strong magic and shooting phase. Especially both wood elves and dark elves.

Unfortunately I've run out of time for now, but I'll come back later on comment on your list :) .
Thanks for the writeup, it was very interesting.
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1065 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

@ Jimmy

I really enjoyed having a "Griffon" Rider among the army and I absolutely love the model. It may be a great idea to create that center piece model of the army, as you say, and since I have already started working on it I may simply continue. I will see what I can do in terms of army list. I understand that lone model will have tougher time to survive but cool factor is important :)

You are spot on about the base or even minor conversion too! Thanks a lot, Jimmy, you gave me some motivation to try something cool!

Cheers!

@ Andros123

Thanks for the post! Some great comments!

I think players who like to compete tend to go for the hardest army lists available but ETC style seems to encourage that in particular, simply because it is a team tournament. It is perfectly understandable because each player has to get the score to help the team. From the point of view of an observer it looks like there is not much room for risk factor and since the style or composition is not a subject of scoring at all, there is no need to care about themed army lists or something like that.

The side effect seems to be that the best players create, the rest imitates.

But it does not mean that even if you play in such environment you cannot be the person who innovates and that playing against tough army is always bad experience. I had a pleasure to play against fantastic players who used tough armies and I had fun and learned a thing or two. Every single point I managed to get from such game was a success. The only concern was if I put up a fight that was decent enough for my more skilled opponent.

So while the future of the game is still unknown and despite the fact that ETC promotes certain style, I am positive because that helps me to enjoy my own games.

It is a very interesting comment about the flying character. They do ignore many things that are good tactical moves against ground troops. There is not much we can do about that. I wish the armies looked more like armies but that is what other players prefer/like and I do my best to accept and respect that, especially that it is not my own approach. I simply want to focus on something I can do which is - how to adapt my own army to new dynamics in the game.

I don't expect it to be easy, especially that I want to keep the main concept of the army - Multiple Small Units. More powerful and often flying characters and powerful magic mean that the challenge is tougher but I am determined to play and develop tactics that can help me fight against these threats too. I am sure it will help me to be a better player and will provide material for more battle reports :)

Looking forward to reading your further comments!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1066 Post by SpellArcher »

Hi SM

I like the look of this 'Back to Basics' thing. Obviously one of the ways you can help your combat units out is by having a solid shooting phase to keep enemy troops on their toes. The Archers are Core, which helps and the RBT are very useful. Personally, I would bring the Reaver BSB back to strengthen this. With the Loremaster's Magic Missiles you then have a good measure of board control IMHO.

I note that Hinge made the USA ETC team this year! From Asrai I gather the US West Coast scene is about as far from this as it is possible to get. Though he does play widely across the US of course.
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1067 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi SA,

Thanks! I actually thought about Reaver Bow too! Even without Potion of Strength he will be always useful. I wonder then if having BSB on Griffon with Reaver Bow, Golden Crown and Charmed Shield is not a way to go?

Yes, Hinge is busy with ETC practice but as you can imagine I can't know too many details before the event :) He is very versatile player, experienced with many armies (HE, O&G, WoC and Lizards at least) and due to his many travels to different US tournaments as well as being a TO too he knows different styles too.

I am looking forward to reading about his games! :)

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1068 Post by Rogue Trader »

Really enjoying your battle reports.

As a non-player your presentation, detailed explanation and great maps make the battles interesting and easy to follow. I also like your balance between competiveness and fair play.

The MSU army style (+Loremaster) seems more challenging (thought provoking) than the large dragon, L4 and helm bus. After reading your reports I brought the rulebook and thought about playing.

(Unfortunately GW haven't displayed your enthusiasm and commitment, their complete mishandling of 9E & WFB put me off).
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1069 Post by sutilar »

Hello SwordMaster,

I am a high elf commander, training for games. I have been following your career in the army blog and some CanCon 2015 games.
Although I don't use MSU army, each units independence and combination versatility is important, for that I try to learn from good quality MSU armies.

Thank you for such good battle reports. I love MSU army battle reports.

Big game against Orcs n Goblins! The report was so exciting. In your situation, during the deployment I would fall in panic, facing such big army with such small units! You have temper, I admire how you manage the MSU army.

I would like to keep commenting you career.

Sutilar
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=68315&p=897288#p897288
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1070 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for your comments and kind words of support! That is very motivational and means a lot, thanks!

@ Rogue Trader

Thank you! I am very happy to hear that you like my battle reports! I need to spend quite a lot of time to prepare them so it is great to know they are appreciated :) The first inspiration were the excellent narrative battle reports in White Dwarf, full of close ups and diagrams and interesting battles. If possible, I try to include pictures but I am afraid the quality is still something lacking. The bright side is there is room for improvement!

I like MSU for various reasons and I am sure people playing with Dragon + level 4 + bus have their own too. There is nothing wrong in playing either as they offer different type of experience. It would be fantastic to see variety among the armies people play but I also try to understand why certain armies are more popular than the others.

But the best thing I can do is to continue with my own way and do my best to stay competitive for any set up :)

I mentioned that earlier but I also fell into that motivation lack trap as many others. I don't like what GW does in terms of taking care (or lack of it) of their customer. But I like the game some enthusiasts created long time ago and I collected many miniatures so I decided I still have a choice. At the moment it is to continue playing and enjoying the hobby I like and see what happens in the future. I may still abandon it one day if there is nobody I can play against and/or the game I like is not there anymore. But that is not a concern for today.

Maybe it is good idea to play just for the sake of it and simply enjoy your time the way you used to? No need to ask GW for permission to do it or how to have fun!

@ sutilar

Thank you! I am really happy that you showed that one can follow his own path and still look for the inspiration from others! I am even more happy to know that you find my battle reports entertaining and even useful for your own games. That is great!

I totally agree that some opponents look really intimidating. Maybe it is due to few games I have already played but they are not too bad really. And if you can brace yourself and come up with a good plan to defeat the enemy, then it is even better! I must say I had a similar feeling many times too but writing the reports and talking about the games helped me to learn that there is always something I can do.

I am looking forwards to reading your comments and good luck with your own games!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1071 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

After some pondering about the army list and few emails with Jimmy I decided to listen to his advice and go for Griffon Rider BSB. Here is the Army List I am thinking about at the moment:

Outcasts - Army List

Loremaster, Earthing Rod, Armor of Fortune, Obsidian Amulet - 320
BSB, Griffon, Dragon Armor, Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield - 311

Core Units - 600

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 175
5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 155
2 x 10 Swordmasters - 300
10 Lions, Banner, Musician - 150

2 x Bolt Thrower - 140
2 Great Eagles - 100
2 x 5 Sisters - 140

Army Total: 2391

I decided to take away one unit of Lions mainly because I would have 1 regiment less to paint. Instead, I could use that time to paint Griffon Rider.

I was thinking about how I would like to use him in my army. As before the main role is to keep waving his flag and not to get killed. Having him mounted on a griffon I get 18" to use his re-rolls, which is great for my MSU force. Now, he can be quite vulnerable to the various kinds of attacks.

Initially I wanted to equip him to dodge cannons with Golden Crown and Charmed Shield. But that means he has no protection against spells that ignore armor save. What is more, if he survives but Griffon does not, then he is stripped of the protection too (at least from armor ignoring weapons).

Jimmy suggested then that 4++ ward is simple but versatile option because it allows him a save from everything. With Enchanted Shield he has 2+ armor save when mounted and relatively good 3+ when pedestrian. It is not perfect so I would need to use cover well but that is what I am going to try. I also decided to give him dragon armor anyway so that he is protected from flaming attacks. That includes quite a few spells that might otherwise hurt him.

Now, I also wanted to be able to use my few characters in a few roles. Sitting on top of a ferocious beast such as Griffon asks for the upgrades so that with Griffon and rider having ASF and S6 on the charge they can hit pretty hard. But these upgrades cost me 45 points and I would need to get 36 points from somewhere.

Do you think it is worthy doing so? And if yes, where would you look for the points?

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1072 Post by Galharen »

How does your core section look like? The same as previously?

BTW, I know already your answer, but still I need to try 8)
When you already have a LT BSB, have you considered taking Frost? That would allow you to counter attack fast and hard, but what is more important, cannons have to divide their attention between Frost and Griffi. I found Frost an ideal answer to for example Morghasts and other stuff like that. Atm you have no answer to them in your list.
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1073 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Galharen!

I intend to use either 2 x Archers with full commands and 2 x 5 Reavers with full equipment and musicians or Archers, Sea Guard and 2 x 5 Reavers, as I used to. First option is the one I use now more or less while the second is coming back to what I had earlier. I simply like the models a lot too and I think they would make the army look nicer.

There is an option to use Silver Helms at some stage but in order to do that I need to convert and paint 5 more metal Dragon Princes first.

I have never disputed the usefulness of Forstheart. It is obviously a very good entry from our book. I am not surprised so many players have at least one of them. And I am not surprised you still try to convince me :D

The thing is it would go against two principles I decided to follow at the moment:

1. No new models until we know what is going to happen to Warhammer
2. More units

Frostheart costs 240 points which is the cost of 2 units in the army. Every time I receive a suggestion about including something in my force I would like to ask how to find points for it, i.e. what needs to go? Because by adding something new you are taking away from another department.

I am also curious about your comment about Morghasts. I haven't played against them so I would like to ask for some more details about their potential threat, in particular for my own army and why do you think I don't have any tools to deal with them?

Also, what are the other, similar units that you had in mind exactly? That would be helpful in assessing the dangers and maybe coming up with a way to deal with them.

Thanks in advance!
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1074 Post by SpellArcher »

You obviously have a lot of options with the Griffon rider SM.

The main issue seems to me to be the complete lack of saves on the mount. Options to deal with this are limited. One thought is to put MR3 on the rider to at least give the Griffon a 4++ vs spells (plus making the BSB almost immune to snipes). A cheap buff option is Ironcurse Icon, that 6++ might just save him. Of course the real punt here is Banner of the World Dragon! Griffon instantly has a 2++ vs all wounding spells and half the shooting in Warhammer! Not to mention a lot of close combats. Vs Daemons this guy is a death machine.

Offensively ASF is obviously helpful (and defensively too). But I feel the other upgrade is better. 5 S6 attacks at I5 is great and he Thunderstomps at S6 too. That is seriously upgraded damage potential. Where to get the points from though SM as your other units are already pretty lean?

BSB, Griffon (Swooping Strike), Heavy Armour, Lance, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Preservation.

This saves six points on Dragon Armour. It's a shame but switching to Charmed Shield will help vs things like Flaming cannon. On a Dragon or Phoenix Lord I'd prefer Enchanted Shield but those are more durable hence can be safely hurled into a lot of combats to escape cannon. The BSB on Griffon has to be more circumspect, therefore Charmed Shield IMHO because he will be taking more balls. The other ten points I would find by dropping a command upgrade somewhere.
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1075 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi SA,

Thanks for the tips, as always very much appreciated!

I was thinking about the Griffon and decided the most important thing is that if it gets shot down BSB survives. This way I can keep using him as a pedestrian BSB (as I have done so far) but despite the obvious loss of a mount I do not give up the points to the enemy! And that is the basis for my considerations for the equipment I would like to give him.

- MR(3) - this is a good option indeed. It protects both the rider and the mount, with the rider getting 3++ with dragon armor against the spells. On the other hand it offers no protection against other attacks.

- Banner of the World Dragon - very good option as it offers protection against many things for both. Magic arrows, magic attacks from any type of a war machine (regular cannons or similar excluding of course), these things you have mentioned already! Tempting :)

If I were to upgrade the griffon with both upgrades then I would need 36 points. One way is to get rid of two sisters and combine them into one unit of 8. Then I would need to get 8 points from somewhere.

I am still considering pros and cons of Enchanted Shield vs Charmed Shield. :)

Thanks anyway, I am sure I will test some of these ideas in the upcoming battles.

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1076 Post by sutilar »

Griffon BSB, good luck!
Congratulations, I thankfully read you as I many times would like to have a flying super 18" BSB. However, I had never time for it.
About the frostheart, you should forget it. That is not MSU.
SpellArcher wrote:You obviously have a lot of options with the Griffon rider SM.

The main issue seems to me to be the complete lack of saves on the mount. Options to deal with this are limited. One thought is to put MR3 on the rider to at least give the Griffon a 4++ vs spells (plus making the BSB almost immune to snipes). A cheap buff option is Ironcurse Icon, that 6++ might just save him. Of course the real punt here is Banner of the World Dragon! Griffon instantly has a 2++ vs all wounding spells and half the shooting in Warhammer! Not to mention a lot of close combats. Vs Daemons this guy is a death machine.
I agree, the Griffon BSB is too weak, to ranged shooting and magic. I think ideally this character should assume clear roles, and forget the versatility. It is too difficult to build him like an 'all-terrain car'.
First the whole army should build up, laying on having a mobile BSB monster supporting them, to finally equip him according to what is gonna exactly do in a game.

Griffon BSB ROLES in MSU Ouctasts
18 UM BSB is amazing in any MSU army. It supports the 10xSwordmasters/White Lions, 14xArchers/Sea Guard, Ellyrian Reavers... Trust in your small elites (who can put big damage but lack leadership), combo-charges, retreat safely...
It should be quite shy during Early Game, when a full of tools army can kill it fast. It is not wasting time, when it can support the infantry first, and the cavalry later. That is a big difference in comparison to the infantry BSB. Re-rolls for everybody who ask for them!
You are not wasting time just waiting with the infantry, i.e. against Frostheart Phoenix and flying monsters armies. Covers them from behind with an intimidating charge range, giving flexibility to the Archers to take the position they need and Swordmasters to fearless charge forward. Moreover, still can fly to meet the advancing Cavalry flank.
During Late Game close combat mission opportunities will increase. When your cavalry have surrounded the enemy artillery position, or the Death Magic sniper is busy, or just the close combat target is now softer, specially the Griffon (and not the rider) have things to eat. Unsupported infantry units, weakened characters, wounded monsters...
I see him rarely performing early game charging missions. Never first turn charge.

At list build time I would separate the Riders role and Mounts role. The BSB will make it's best in the early game (supporting multiple units) while the Griffon have his chance to eat later.
Using it in the rear during early game should wear war-machine protection specially for the rider, and definitely some magical protection for both. Even a 5++ MR is worth, as you can later heal the mount with the Loremasters Life spell.

Enchanted Shield vs Charmed shield. As I see the Griffon BSB so shy and slow in the early game, the armour save of the Enchanted Shield is not necessary. Just avoid archer blocks. I rarely see him in close combat in early game, because it could expose himself to different kind of threats.
The Charmed shield seems like protecting both the mount and the rider. Because most of games the enemy will have to put 2 or 3 big bolts in the mount before taking it down, chances for the Charmed Shield to redirect one.

Anyways, you are creating a ranged firing target for the enemy. I see him place in your army. A heavy shooting Elven army can dedicate full ranged fire-power to assure his death in two turns. Two turns of fresh air for the Dragon Princes.

The Sisters of Avelorn can benefit from the Griffon BSB. As they are static MSU, it is easy job for the BSB to cover them.

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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1077 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi sutilar,

Thanks a lot for detailed feedback, a of of food for thoughts!

Versatility vs Specialization

That is ongoing debate for me. On one hand I prefer flexibility as that provides redundancy and taking over the tasks if units are lost on the course of battle. It helps to surprise the enemy too. That is why I equip Reavers with both, Spears and Bows and why I like the idea of Sea Guard.

It is even more so when we talk about the characters. Since I have very few of them I want to see if I they can contribute to the game in different phases. In general it is not even a question if but how. For example, the Loremaster is a general so he provides Inspiring Presence but at the same time he is also a wizard. He can even add a little in terms of combat.

BSB is similar, his main role is waving his flag and stay alive. But I had him equipped with Reaver Bow and he contributed to the shooting phase. It does not need to be able to do as many things as possible. However, I have always an eye for such opportunity and I like to consider it at least.

Griffon BSB

I really like how you outlined his role in the context of MSU army. I think it is easy to start considering any character or unit without a context of an army they are going to join.

The way you described his role also reminds me about characters in Warmaster. They have supportive role there, they give orders (extremely important) but do not engage on their own as rules do not allow that. You can add a character to the fighting unit to add attacks however.

It is a very interesting but good approach I think. As you said, keep him alive, close enough but safe in cover, being some kind of a rear guard and helping where it is important. I like the way you described different roles for the rider and for the griffon and when these can come to play. I was concerned, for example, that I might not use the formidable skills griffon has in combat (especially when upgraded) but you have just pointed out that it does not have to be that bad! Thanks!

In terms of equipment then I can do the following:

Option 1

BSB - Griffon, Dragon Armor, Lance, Talisman of Preservation (4++), Charmed Shield - 311 (356 with both upgrades)

That gives the rider 3+ armor save, 4++ against any other attack and 2++ against flaming attacks but leaves Griffon unprotected.

Option 2

BSB, Griffon, Dragon Armor, Lance, Obsidian Lodestone, Charmed Shield - 311 (356 with both upgrades)

3+ armor save again but 3++ for the rider and 4++ for the Griffon against spells as well as 2++ against flaming attacks. Better protection for them early game against spells but not that much against shooting. My concern here is that against some scouts and fast cavalry (Dark Riders and Glade Riders in particular) I might not be able to hide early enough.

There are of course other ideas here too but that is what came up with after your post. Please, feel free to add some more! It is also possible to change equipment for the Loremaster but I would need to keep Earthing Rod :)

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1078 Post by sutilar »

Hehehe, lets continue building Griffon BSB SM,

First of all, I already see a great competitiveness approach. I just can't wait for battle reports!

Versatility vs Specialization - Versatility vs Combination with the army

I think we understand quite similarly this aspects. However, you like more the Versatility of the unit to put lots of threats to the enemy. I wouldn't build up the Griffon BSB on that way (monster upgrades, magic weapons...).
Instead look to put lots of threats by building other units in combination with a 'basic' Griffon BSB - indeed you build it that way in the example options -. Besides you are the best for this job, I put some starting examples.

Aggressive Sea Guard blocks. They will be able to advance forward fearless having covered each own weakness. No problem on leadership tests, enhanced reforming and happy to take a charging monster! The Griffon answers engaging back -himself still safe, close to friendly units.

Ellyrian Reavers - champion. First of all, the enemy ranged fire during early game its diverted. Assume you will get more of your cavalry, specially on Ellyrian Reavers its huge to perform first turns free of shooting.
Additionally, they both make big combination potential! Safer retreats, counter-charges, scaled multiple charges thanks to M9 and Flying to finally charge together - ASF, musician, champion (!) light cavalry + infantry-stomper Griffon + charging lanced F6 Noble -. Ellyrian Reavers w/ champion charge together with Griffon BSB against a deadly character in a unit of infantry or cavarly = sacrificing champion singles out the character while the rest of the elves massacre the unit.

Dragon Princes - champion. Similar to the Ellyrian Reavers. Great combination with the cavalry.

Sisters of Avelorn. In chess, this would be the piece which moves to the position from where has a big shot and its covered by the counter-charge of the Griffon BSB. Specially the Bows of Avelorn exploit their potential from the better position, and usually are afraid of advancing.

Generally I would use champions in cavalry units to charge combinations and standards on infantry for hold-on and counter-charge missions.

SWORDMASTERS OF HOETH. Yes, they really match! As Sea Guard, the infantry gains aggressive confidence. Instead of holding-on a charge the Swordmasters can put big damage in most units. With the Griffon covering from behind, they will perform more charges!

I would consider how necessary are each Great Eagle, because the whole army seems to gain mobility.

Bolt Throwers. They have the mission of taking down multiple biggest threats of the Griffon BSB - flying monsters and shooter scouts. Most armies have them -. During early game and having the Griffon BSB covering from the back, the Bolt Throwers easily shoot down any approaching light unit (specially in short range) and snipe the flying monster or at least delay its approach.
They have a big effect fire-covering the Griffon BSB during Early Game, the best time.

Griffon BSB

Your build-up looks good! I'm excited, waiting for some matches.

Roles.
BSB. It has flying and (with less relevance) 18 UM coverage. It's best moment is just from the beginning, when there are many units to re-roll-cover. Relying on his (at least) initial coverage, launch a disciplined assaulting MSU force and (at the same time!) move on the infantry and/or shooting regiments to an advantageous position. The BSB is able to cover the Left Flank during 1st and 2nd turns and fly to cover the Right Flank later.
Griffon mount. I see it just like another MSU. You must spend 150 points at least. Now, it is already a MSU. Which has huge combination with the units of the army. Highlighting high strength, 1D6 impacts-smashing infantry and all of course flying!

I like both of your options. I wouldn't upgrade the mount.

Option 1: It is decently protected from war-machinery. The mount has no saves but it has 4 wounds, more than a cannonball looking probability-statistics. You can heal it with the Loremaster. Well protected against S4 2D6 spell, but weak to sniper spells (a single spell will kill him, forcing you to avoid it).

Option 2: another good example. Ready to fight magic, and still protected from war-machinery. It seems like the Dragon Armour will always best fit adding the fire protection, but Lion Cloak can be necessary! As you said, first turn scouts and fast cavalry have chances to take him down, having only 3+ save. Saving on 1+ can give a different flexibility in the game, specially against elves and Ballistic Skilled shooters.
Consider also MR (2). It is a worth 5++ magic protection for the mount (which later can be healed) and the rider gets 4++ (having dragon armour) or 5++ (having lion cloak; but adding 1+ armour against most missile and direct damage spells).


Battle! Battle! Battle!

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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1079 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi sutilar,

Great post again! Thank you very much for your enthusiasm and faith put in my abilities. I greatly appreciate that!

I will test the army with Griffon BSB for sure, just trying to organize some games over UB at the moment. Hopefully I will find time this week to play.

Many thanks for support and great ideas again! :)
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Re: MSU HE - moving on (sort of)

#1080 Post by Galharen »

Wanna play a test game on UB? :)
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