HE MSU in the Old World - Game 1 - 2000 vs Warriors of Chaos - 2024/03/04

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Siegfried VII
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#31 Post by Siegfried VII »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: Which option would benefit the army better then (with or without bows)?

1. 9 SH as a bodyguard for a Prince + 5 DP + 5 ER
2. 9 DP as a bodyguard for a Prince + 2 x 5 ER
3. 9 DP as a bodyguard for a Prince + 10 ER

10 ER is actually an idea I read somewhere here as well. They are still fast cavalry but now have a better hitting power and can be used as a good flanking force.

And if you are to choose 2 or 3, what would be your favourite equipment?
Assuming you're talking about the magic equipment of the Dragon Princes I would choose one of the following:

Standard:

Razor Standard: Armour Piercing is good for the Dragon Princes although it comes at a price and I would not choose it if I needed to save points.

Banner of Swiftness: It is cheap and a march movement of 18 (plus the almost flyer charge) can be extremely useful tacticaly if used correctly.

Finally you could give them the Banner of Sorcery and give your Sword Masters the Standard of Balance which will make them much more competitive against various opponents.

Drakemaster:

The Other Trickster's Shard: Best choice imo. I use it and it can work miracles against various opponents. Great against Wood Elves, Daemons and Bretonnians, but also against 5+ ward save Orcs or Warriors/Chosen of chaos with ward save blessings from the warshrine. Heck you can even tackle dark elf units with ward save from the cauldron. Finally this annoying parry ward save from shields can be rendered useless.


Cheers, Sieg. :)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#32 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

SpellArcher wrote:Have you considered Radiant Gem for the third Light mage Swordmaster?

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=36381
I did consider Mage Knight(or similar) in my army in general but I found out I play better with characters/units which have a well defined role or specialization if you like :) With a Mage Knight or BSB as a mage I would have difficult time to decide what to do with him. As a mage he should be out of combat, as a fighting character he wants to use his ASF ability to the full. It does not work for me somehow although I think I see why would you suggest that. With Mage Knight or BSB I can save points for more troops and have a similar magic phase. Do you have any experience with such character set up?
Siegfried VII wrote:Assuming you're talking about the magic equipment of the Dragon Princes I would choose one of the following:

Razor Standard: Armour Piercing is good for the Dragon Princes although it comes at a price and I would not choose it if I needed to save points.

The Other Trickster's Shard: Best choice imo. I use it and it can work miracles against various opponents. Great against Wood Elves, Daemons and Bretonnians, but also against 5+ ward save Orcs or Warriors/Chosen of chaos with ward save blessings from the warshrine. Heck you can even tackle dark elf units with ward save from the cauldron. Finally this annoying parry ward save from shields can be rendered useless.
This is the set up I would use. Even after charge it might help to kill some more troops. The banner would also help the Prince as his S4 with Foe bane is not that great if the target has some armour.

As to the Shard, how does it work against the unit? Drakemaster is in base contact with 2-3 models usually so which have to re-roll ward saves?

The main problem with big unit of DP is that there are a lot of point tied there if you add a Prince as well. Also with three combat units I usually put them close together because they need to fight as a team, have protection from archmage but then it is easy to predict the deployment of my forces and I do not really have the opportunity to deploy two teams of two fighting regiments supporting each other as I have with current army list. The great advantage is that this unit is powerful on the charge and has a chance to inflict enough damage to break through in one turn. I also think this unit will attract a lot of attention from the enemy so it might be difficult to keep it alive.

I must say it is a difficult choice but a very tempting one :)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#33 Post by Prince of Spires »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Siegfried VII wrote:
Assuming you're talking about the magic equipment of the Dragon Princes I would choose one of the following:

Razor Standard: Armour Piercing is good for the Dragon Princes although it comes at a price and I would not choose it if I needed to save points.

The Other Trickster's Shard: Best choice imo. I use it and it can work miracles against various opponents. Great against Wood Elves, Daemons and Bretonnians, but also against 5+ ward save Orcs or Warriors/Chosen of chaos with ward save blessings from the warshrine. Heck you can even tackle dark elf units with ward save from the cauldron. Finally this annoying parry ward save from shields can be rendered useless.
This is the set up I would use. Even after charge it might help to kill some more troops. The banner would also help the Prince as his S4 with Foe bane is not that great if the target has some armour.
Just don't put him next to your prince, as he will then be rerolling his wardsaves as well. IIRC it is all models in B2B contact...

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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#34 Post by Siegfried VII »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: As to the Shard, how does it work against the unit? Drakemaster is in base contact with 2-3 models usually so which have to re-roll ward saves?
The Drakemaster is in base contact with 3 models. So 5 of your models can target these three models.

You allocate your attacks with these 5 Dragon Prince models (and those 5 behind them) to those 3 models in the enemy unit. If you use ranks of 5 then against all of your wounding hits the enemy unit will reroll their ward saves.

If you use ranks of 6 then 2 models will not have ward save rerolling attacks. In any case the vast majority of your hits will have the effect.


Cheers, Sieg. :)

p.s. Regarding the Razor Standard if I remember correctly the Prince will not be able to use its effects since he uses a magic weapon. Could be wrong though...
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#35 Post by SpellArcher »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: Do you have any experience with such character set up?
No I don't.

I think of most BSB's as being able to do 2 things. Re-rolls and combat are the most common ones but some substiute shooting (Reaver Bow), magic defence (World Dragon) or magic (Radiant Gem) for example. Of course it depends on your personal preferences and (very much) on your list. If your BSB is going to get into serious combat (maybe a unit needs him) then all of these options are risky. I'm currently weighing up whether I can afford to be clever with mine and drop some of his protective gear.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#36 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

rdghuizing wrote:Just don't put him next to your prince, as he will then be rerolling his wardsaves as well. IIRC it is all models in B2B contact...

Rod
That is true and I remember that but nonetheless thanks for a reminder :)
Siegfried VII wrote:The Drakemaster is in base contact with 3 models. So 5 of your models can target these three models.

You allocate your attacks with these 5 Dragon Prince models (and those 5 behind them) to those 3 models in the enemy unit. If you use ranks of 5 then against all of your wounding hits the enemy unit will reroll their ward saves.

If you use ranks of 6 then 2 models will not have ward save rerolling attacks. In any case the vast majority of your hits will have the effect.
Let's assume I hit the target with 10 strong unit of DP, formed in 2 ranks, drakemaster being at the centre. If I fight against anything with a base of 25 mm I can allocate all the attacks against 3 models. This means I have 16 attacks (not counting steeds) to allocate against these 3 models. Does it mean, however, I can kill only these 3?
Siegfried VII wrote:p.s. Regarding the Razor Standard if I remember correctly the Prince will not be able to use its effects since he uses a magic weapon. Could be wrong though...
I didn't know that, I will check for sure, thanks!
SpellArcher wrote:I think of most BSB's as being able to do 2 things. Re-rolls and combat are the most common ones but some substiute shooting (Reaver Bow), magic defence (World Dragon) or magic (Radiant Gem) for example. Of course it depends on your personal preferences and (very much) on your list. If your BSB is going to get into serious combat (maybe a unit needs him) then all of these options are risky. I'm currently weighing up whether I can afford to be clever with mine and drop some of his protective gear.
Indeed BSB can be good at different roles. However, as you said, he has a particular duty in each army and in my case I want him to hold the line (re-rolls of Ld based tests) and add to combat abilities of the army in general and to Spearelves in most cases. As he often leads from the front by example I need him to be well protected against rank-and-file troops of my enemy. What is more, I prefer more aggressive approach and having a defensive BSB who shoots or can cast spells would be against that idea. At least this is what I think at the moment but I am always opened for suggestions! :)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#37 Post by Siegfried VII »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: Let's assume I hit the target with 10 strong unit of DP, formed in 2 ranks, drakemaster being at the centre. If I fight against anything with a base of 25 mm I can allocate all the attacks against 3 models. This means I have 16 attacks (not counting steeds) to allocate against these 3 models. Does it mean, however, I can kill only these 3?
You will kill as many models as you score unsaved wounds as long as they are rank and file models.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#38 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Swordmaster!

Glad to see you've come over to the light side as well. The lore is my favourite, particularly because of my playstyle, which favours multiple small units. The lore is great for its ability to confer its bonuses to many units at once.

Looking over your list, I see you've recently made the change to 3 light wizards in addition to your Prince and your BSB. It seems you've had a good measure of success with it!

I do have a couple concerns, however. High Elves, due to our fragile nature and high point cost, have a quite narrow margin for error. Your list has an overall model count of 94, mostly due to the high saturation of characters. My suspicion is that this will cause you to struggle versus horde armies. Lore of light has many benefits, but handling hordes definitely isn't one of them. S6 banishment doesn't do much good when you're facing off against 50 goblins.

Your list seems to be a hybrid of both the cavalry prince list and the coven of light list at this point, and my gut tells me this is going to become a "can't have your cake and eat it too" type situation. With only one unit capable of bringing enough ranks to bear to break steadfast (if I was on the other side, I know what I'd be shooting templates at :P), I think that the number of characters has cut too deeply into the number of troops you're bringing. Have you considered trying a game with just the Archmage and the banner in terms of magic? This would greatly lessen your liability when it comes to items like the hellheart or the puppet, and also afford you the points to beef up your infantry a bit and help you out when it comes to a war of attrition.

Regardless, loving the battle reports, keep them coming! I'm really enjoying watching your list evolve!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#39 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Siegfried VII wrote:You will kill as many models as you score unsaved wounds as long as they are rank and file models.
That is a very interesting thing to know. :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:Glad to see you've come over to the light side as well. The lore is my favourite, particularly because of my playstyle, which favours multiple small units. The lore is great for its ability to confer its bonuses to many units at once.
Yes, I find it to be a great asset of the lore. On the other hand if you cast a spell on a single unit then the casting value is relatively low so you can have a successful magic phase even if the winds of magic are weak.:)
Brewmaster_D wrote:Looking over your list, I see you've recently made the change to 3 light wizards in addition to your Prince and your BSB. It seems you've had a good measure of success with it!
I am not sure yet :) It was just one battle with them and my opponent was extremely unlucky. I also have some concerns whihc you spotted as well. It was definitely a good suggestion by Siegfried but as everything it comes with a price. So now I am basically thinking if I can accept that risk or maybe yet another tweak would suit me better. This is a great thing about the army list we have now. Even with a small change one can create a significant difference in a game.
Brewmaster_D wrote:I do have a couple concerns, however. High Elves, due to our fragile nature and high point cost, have a quite narrow margin for error. Your list has an overall model count of 94, mostly due to the high saturation of characters. My suspicion is that this will cause you to struggle versus horde armies. Lore of light has many benefits, but handling hordes definitely isn't one of them. S6 banishment doesn't do much good when you're facing off against 50 goblins.
It is definitely true and I am well aware of that risk. It is easy to fall into a trap where one list seems to work very well against particular army but then it might not be good at all against another. I hope I will have a chance to play against Skaven and/or Goblins as my regular opponent has them as well (and with Universal Battles we use anyway any combination is possible to use :)). Thanks for pointing that out as I try to build a list worthy any foe and I definitely would be happy to discuss such matters now and be better prepared later. :)

Saying that I belive Lore of Light can still help me. Magic missiles are good to deal with small support units horde armies have often and sometimes killing a little thing can panic big but poorly disciplined foe like Goblins :) Pha's protection is very good at any stage of the game. And it seems that getting into combat with horde units can be the safest thing to do. In addtion I could make my troops either unbreakable or very difficult to hit thus helping me in a war of attrition. Some horde units have T3 and not much armour to speak about and our troops excel at killing these quickly enough. It is, of course, but it is even better to have a challenge like that :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:Your list seems to be a hybrid of both the cavalry prince list and the coven of light list at this point, and my gut tells me this is going to become a "can't have your cake and eat it too" type situation. With only one unit capable of bringing enough ranks to bear to break steadfast (if I was on the other side, I know what I'd be shooting templates at :P), I think that the number of characters has cut too deeply into the number of troops you're bringing. Have you considered trying a game with just the Archmage and the banner in terms of magic? This would greatly lessen your liability when it comes to items like the hellheart or the puppet, and also afford you the points to beef up your infantry a bit and help you out when it comes to a war of attrition.
I was indeed concerend with the fact I might face 3 miscasts in one turn if the Hellheart worked properly last game. That is definitely a reason to have fewer spell casters. I have also found out it is more difficult to get the spells you want for the wizard you want. Obviously I prefer to have Pha's Protection, Speed of Light, Birnona's Time Warp and Banishment on my Archmage as he can cast them easier and often I would need a powered up versio of these spells. With two level 1 it is a hard decision as to what to do. I prefer them to have Burning Gaze buit then I might not be able to roll the spells I want. With level 2 I can have two spells I need but have a slightly better chance to cast a more difficult spell. What is more I also add +3 to dispell if the archmage loses his concentration (and that can happen too).

You are correct that I have only Spearelves as rank breaking unit. I did try, however, the army with a single archmage and even with the aid of Banner of Sorcery it was not good enough for me. The reason being that I might not have a good spells choice to keep the magic phase going at every stage of the battle. Single Archmage is, in my opinion, a defiensive option, focused more on dispelling than casting. Any time he casts a spell is a great bonus but he does not add as much as Archmage+Mage.

The same goes with Prince. I know he is very expensive but I believe he adds to the army what no other units can accomplish as efficiently. He can kill big monsters, should prevent enemy characters from killing my troops, can even be a unit on his own if there is a need for that. I am aware that Prince + 2 x Mage = almost 500 points which would give me 2 more spear blocks. I will definitely try to re-think the army composition as it is a never ending process. But then I also need to do by trying some options in the game. And if I can make it work despite being low on body count and having only one unit with ranks then all good too. :)

However, I always say I am really happy for any suggestions. Do you have any particular army list in mind then? Or maybe which characters and with which magic items would you keep and what would you take in exchange?
Brewmaster_D wrote:Regardless, loving the battle reports, keep them coming! I'm really enjoying watching your list evolve!
Thanks! I like writing reports anyway but if that makes for an interesting topic and I can share and exchange ideas about my army list then even better!

Speaking of battle reports, any chances for yours in a near future? They are a great inspiration! :)

Cheers!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#40 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Swordmaster,

I think you'll find the list in it's current form to perform in a very polarized manner. Either you'll get the defensive spells off that your list relies on and sucessfully combine force to take out your opponents, or you'll have a situation where one unfortunate miscast or one lucky volley of arrows on your opponent's part will put you too far behind to recover from. At 26 points per model on average, the loss of any one of them is felt dearly.
Saying that I belive Lore of Light can still help me. Magic missiles are good to deal with small support units horde armies have often and sometimes killing a little thing can panic big but poorly disciplined foe like Goblins :) Pha's protection is very good at any stage of the game. And it seems that getting into combat with horde units can be the safest thing to do. In addtion I could make my troops either unbreakable or very difficult to hit thus helping me in a war of attrition. Some horde units have T3 and not much armour to speak about and our troops excel at killing these quickly enough. It is, of course, but it is even better to have a challenge like that :)
I completely agree - the lore does have many spells that will help us in an attrition war. Net of Amyntok is also great for slowing down S3 hordes (bonus points if they have a wizard in there too!). None of the spells are as spectacular as a Dwellers, mind you, but that's part of what makes it very tough to prioritize dispelling against. Didn't get Pha's off on that important combat? Speed of light will have most troops hitting on 5's as well. The list goes on.
You are correct that I have only Spearelves as rank breaking unit. I did try, however, the army with a single archmage and even with the aid of Banner of Sorcery it was not good enough for me. The reason being that I might not have a good spells choice to keep the magic phase going at every stage of the battle. Single Archmage is, in my opinion, a defiensive option, focused more on dispelling than casting. Any time he casts a spell is a great bonus but he does not add as much as Archmage+Mage.
Personally, for the cost, I think that the silver wand is one of the best items in our list. With 5 spells, the odds of you not getting the spells you need are very small indeed. And in a lore with almost no throwaway spells, this greatly increases the versatility of the archmage.

In a list with almost 600 points centered around the magic phase, taking down your archmage is going to be one of your opponent's top priorities; if they take him out, your level 1's (or single 2) aren't going to do much. Due to the presence of so many points in characters, your troops will then face a *very* tough fight with no magical support.

With a single Archmage and the banner, you effectively cut the spending on the magic phase by almost 300 points. With the presence of more troops, your tactical options increase, and your army functions better without magical support.

I'm a big fan of this build:

Archmage, Level 4, Silver Wand, Forliath's Robes, Talisman of Protection

His 4+ ward helps him fear miscasts less (yeah, 2-4 is still awful, but it's a managed risk), his robes let him be in a unit that is guaranteed to be in the thick of combat, allowing him to impart his aura spells where they will be the most effective. Nothing is more spectacular than getting off a combo charge with a couple units of elites, then getting off a timewarp aura.

I tend to approach a game with the mentality that I'm going to lose my archmage to something. However, my goal is to get the most out of him as possible when that happens. I'll risk a miscast if the benefit the spell will provide is worth it - so the aggressiveness of the single archmage is really set by your frame of mind.
However, I always say I am really happy for any suggestions. Do you have any particular army list in mind then? Or maybe which characters and with which magic items would you keep and what would you take in exchange?
Time to put my money where my mouth is then haha! I think a list that I would be more comfortable running, but maintaining your original feel would look something like this (I don't have my book in front of me either, so this is just off of memory):

Prince - Heavy Armour, barded Steed, Shield, Dragon Helm, Foe Bane, Vembrances and Talisman of Loec
Archmage - level 4, Folariath's Robe, Talisman of Protection, Silver Wand - Lore of Light

BSB, GW, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone

35 Spears, FC, Standard of Discipline
13 Archers, M
11 Archers, M

13 Swordmasters, Champion (Archmage goes here)
14 Swordmasters, Standard, Banner of Sorcery
5 Ellyrian Reavers, spears
5 Dragon princes, Musician
9 Silver Helms, FC

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

I think the points work out, I'll double check when I get to my book.

So, here's the changes I made:
- Dropped the light armour off the archers, and made room in core for another rank on that unit of spears.
- Dropped both the mages and some command on the first unit of swordmasters, and added a second. this one has the banner of sorcery, spreading out the liability in your magic phase
- Added a second Eagle to the list to give you more positioning options.

With two eagles, the reavers, the knights and the prince, you've got an extremely fast list, capable of assaulting the backline. However, with the two units of swordmasters and the spears, you also bring significant threat to bear to the front lines as well. Seems like a great recipe to surround your opponents!
Speaking of battle reports, any chances for yours in a near future? They are a great inspiration! :)
haha, thank you very much! It's been a busy summer, with moves and events, so there wasn't much time for warhammer. However... winter is coming...

Couldn't resist lol
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#41 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Brewmaster_D!

It seems you are giving me advices that are in quite opposite to what Siegfried VII suggested :) Who is right then? :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:I think you'll find the list in it's current form to perform in a very polarized manner. Either you'll get the defensive spells off that your list relies on and sucessfully combine force to take out your opponents, or you'll have a situation where one unfortunate miscast or one lucky volley of arrows on your opponent's part will put you too far behind to recover from. At 26 points per model on average, the loss of any one of them is felt dearly.
That is actually a good thing to calculate, the average point cost per model. I didn't realize I have a heavy cavalry army on foot and without armour :) That is indeed my concern and I would like to field an army with more troops but then it is at a cost of characters. I guess it is all about personal balance.
Brewmaster_D wrote:Personally, for the cost, I think that the silver wand is one of the best items in our list. With 5 spells, the odds of you not getting the spells you need are very small indeed. And in a lore with almost no throwaway spells, this greatly increases the versatility of the archmage.
This is true and this particular item is always taken into consideration. :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:In a list with almost 600 points centered around the magic phase, taking down your archmage is going to be one of your opponent's top priorities; if they take him out, your level 1's (or single 2) aren't going to do much. Due to the presence of so many points in characters, your troops will then face a *very* tough fight with no magical support.
True, but then with a single Archmage he is also tempting target as killing him will give the opponent complete magic domination and will leave my army with very poor defense. In that case the addition of level 2 is quite handy as he has dispel abilities of level 3 in other armies and can still cast some useful spells. Even with Silver Wand single Archmage has a smaller choice of spells than 4+2 and it is often not only about which spells you have but how many you have to choose from. I have found out that 2 wizards at least is a great combination indeed and creates a very interesting magic phase. The evidence of that is the most recent choice made by my opponent who took Death Magic particularly because of this reason and to be able to kill my wizards from afar (in addition to his sniping maneaters).
Brewmaster_D wrote:With a single Archmage and the banner, you effectively cut the spending on the magic phase by almost 300 points. With the presence of more troops, your tactical options increase, and your army functions better without magical support.
I indeed want to avoid the situation where my army relies on magic to win battles. I want magic to be an important part of the army but the one without which I still have a chance. However, my experience so far showed that with a single Archmage I struggle to do much and he is there purely for defensive duty.
Brewmaster_D wrote:I'm a big fan of this build:

Archmage, Level 4, Silver Wand, Forliath's Robes, Talisman of Protection

His 4+ ward helps him fear miscasts less (yeah, 2-4 is still awful, but it's a managed risk), his robes let him be in a unit that is guaranteed to be in the thick of combat, allowing him to impart his aura spells where they will be the most effective. Nothing is more spectacular than getting off a combo charge with a couple units of elites, then getting off a timewarp aura.
That is a very interesting build and I will definitely would like to include it if points limits allowed it. I will elaborate on that when I discuss the army list you provided.
Brewmaster_D wrote:I tend to approach a game with the mentality that I'm going to lose my archmage to something. However, my goal is to get the most out of him as possible when that happens. I'll risk a miscast if the benefit the spell will provide is worth it - so the aggressiveness of the single archmage is really set by your frame of mind.
In that I think we agree to the letter :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:Time to put my money where my mouth is then haha! I think a list that I would be more comfortable running, but maintaining your original feel would look something like this (I don't have my book in front of me either, so this is just off of memory)
Didn't want to force you! It is just an interesting thing to do and discussion has more merit when we talk about particular solutions!
Brewmaster_D wrote:Prince - Heavy Armour, barded Steed, Shield, Dragon Helm, Foe Bane, Vembrances and Talisman of Loec
Archmage - level 4, Folariath's Robe, Talisman of Protection, Silver Wand - Lore of Light
I am afraid this combination costs more than 625 points so I cannot have it for 2500 battle :(
Brewmaster_D wrote:So, here's the changes I made:
- Dropped the light armour off the archers, and made room in core for another rank on that unit of spears.
Ok, it is quite useful set up but ... :)
1. I don't have more than 30 Spears at the moment (and even playing with Universal Battles I try to use what I have)
2. I am using old metal Archers with Light Armour and I want to keep it this way. I know it saves points and you can get extra archer for that but again, the way models look matters to me.
Brewmaster_D wrote:Dropped both the mages and some command on the first unit of swordmasters, and added a second. this one has the banner of sorcery, spreading out the liability in your magic phase
Two units of Swordmastes is a very interesting idea indeed :) I know how much they are feared and single unit of 14 is not that difficult to destroy. Very tempting indeed, especially that these new miniatures from IoB are waiting impatiently to be painted :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:With two eagles, the reavers, the knights and the prince, you've got an extremely fast list, capable of assaulting the backline. However, with the two units of swordmasters and the spears, you also bring significant threat to bear to the front lines as well. Seems like a great recipe to surround your opponents!
This is definitely a way to go as a principle and I try to work towards this approach where I can breach enemy lines with cavalry while infantry moves closely behind. Ideally it would lead to a situation where enemy units are surrounded from both sides. Just a question about Reavers, you don't like bows on them or is it simply to save points? Also, I am still trying to decide if I want to field archers as a horde in one unit or not. What is your view on this aspect of the army list?
Brewmaster_D wrote:haha, thank you very much! It's been a busy summer, with moves and events, so there wasn't much time for warhammer. However... winter is coming...

Couldn't resist lol
Good one! :)

I believe I might have a chance to play again on Friday. My opponent wants a revenge, especially for the poor luck last time. I know he plans to bring two units of Mournfang cavalry this time. Probably at least 3 in each. I can expect his Ironguts with Slaughtermaster (Death Magic), BSB and Bruiser with Hellheart. At least one scrappie, two if he is not going to bring ironblaster. Maneaters in some form. I am not sure what he is going to get rid of but I would keep Thundertusk and send gnobblars home. I will post my list soon after considering what have been suggested so far and the list I think he can have. Then I will try to write up some kind of plan and we will see if it might work :)

Cheers!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#42 Post by Siegfried VII »

I would just like to point out that a single Archmage with Lore of Light is a big no no for me. If the banishment is not powerfull it is not worth it in my opinion.

Also Sword Masters are good but die horribly. I once have tried using 2 units of 14. They did ok but as soon as they were hit by a magic missile or a some shooting they became useless because with the step up they couldn't tackle anyone without dying...
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#43 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

I have decided to use the following list in the upcoming battle against Ogres:

Prince on Barded Steed with Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragon Helm, Foe Bane, Vembrances, Talisman of Loec
Archmage level 4 with Talisman of Saphery and Folariath's Robe - Light Lore

BSB with Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone
Mage level 2 with Annulian Crystal - Light Lore

30 Spearelves with Full Command and Standard of Discipline
25 Archers with Full Command and Light Armour

13 Swordmasters with Full Command, Banner of Sorcery and Ironcurse Icon
5 Ellyrian REavers with Bows, Spears and Musician
5 Dragon Princes with Musician
9 Silver Helms with Full Command

2 Great Eagles

As you can see I came back to 2 light wizards. I am not yet comfortable with 3 magicians and with few units I have it is more difficult to keep them safe. It still gives me stronger Banishment and 2D6 S5 magic missile is good enough. But what is more important I have found out that Annulian Crystal is too good to leave home without it.

Equipment for Prince and Archmage is always a problem as they cannot have everything I would like to give them and stay in the 625 points limit. I wanted to see how "unkillable mage" is going to work for me as I know my opponent took a lot of magical weapons just to be sure he can wound my archmage. :)

It is always a difficult for me to decide which I prefer better, two small archer units or single big one. I see merits of having either and since I could not significantly increase the number of troops I chose to see how they are going to work as a single unit this time.

With all these changes I managed to save just enough points to include a secand Great Eagle. By the way, I am currently looking for an alternative solution for miniatures. I would like to field something like a Phoenix or some kind of magical flying being instead. I just feel sorry for poor birds that they always have to sacrifice themselves :) So if you have any suggestions and maybe even have already seen some nice models, please, let me know!

Feel free to criticize the list as much as you want! :)

Now my enemy. I suspect he might field something like that:

Slaughtermaster, Death Magic
Bruiser BSB
Butcher with Hellheart, Gut Magic

10 Ironguts with Full Command
50 Gnoblars with Trappers
3 Maneaters
3 Mournfangs
3 Mournfangs
2 Scrap Launchers
Thundertusk

50 Gnoblars as well might be 3 units of 10, each with trappers. One unit of Mournfangs will have Dragonhide Banner. Maneaters will probably be scouts. Of course he might simply change his army list completely and field something he hasn't yet like Leadbelchers or Stonehorn but this list is something I imagine is quite possible.

If I am right I would field this army in something like this formation:

Image

In that case almost all models are in range of BSB and Slaughtermaster so it will be difficult to panic them. What is more, with no easy kills it will be very difficult to inflict any test at all. Death magic is to snipe out my characters. It has relatively short range but stronger versions of spells have 24" range so I will not stay out their reach for long. And then there is a Hellheart.

How would you counter that army with units I want to field? I know it will also depend on terrain and who is going to start etc. but then some kind of general plan can be formed anyway. I have some ideas and I will share them tomorrow or the day after. Just remember you have two days to share yours as I am going to play on Friday and put to the test my plan. :)

Cheers!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#44 Post by SpellArcher »

Normally I'd be tempted to pick a flank and come down it in force, maybe the one away from the Thundertusk. Stopping the Mournfangs on the other flank could be important and if possible slowing the Ironguts and Thundertusk with Reavers, though this looks tricky.

The fly in the ointment for me is the Maneaters. You have no RBT to hamper these so maybe keep an eagle handy or be ready to target them with magic. You could even keep a strong combat unit like the Swordmasters or possibly the Helm Bus back to counter them.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#45 Post by Brewmaster_D »

I would just like to point out that a single Archmage with Lore of Light is a big no no for me. If the banishment is not powerfull it is not worth it in my opinion.

Also Sword Masters are good but die horribly. I once have tried using 2 units of 14. They did ok but as soon as they were hit by a magic missile or a some shooting they became useless because with the step up they couldn't tackle anyone without dying...
See, I've had the complete opposite experience. Lore of light has so many more useful spells than just banishment. I'm all in favour of two mages, however when trying to squeeze in a combat prince as well (who costs as many points as another small unit of elites himself), you're simply giving up too many troops to achieve a +2 S boost on an unreliable (could be 2 hits, could be 12) spell that relies on an unreliable phase (people will always prioritize dispelling banishment if they see you're over-invested in it)

With regards to the Swordmasters - I view them as an all or nothing thing. One unit is a liability, since all shooting and magic missiles will find their way towards them. Two units, on the other hand, especially when combined with the lore of light, typically weather the storm. I have plenty of battle reports up that illustrate exactly what I mean. link

The real issue at hand here, is that if you're going to invest in a "coven of light", focusing on high strength banishments, I firmly believe you need to go all in or not at all. You need to have at least the following: Archmage, Level 2 with a seerstaff (for a second banishment), Banner of Sorcery, +1 pd item that slips my mind at the moment. If you've invested 600+ points and you only have one instance of banishment to cast, you've just set up the easiest magic phase you could possibly create for your opponent. I don't see this type of strategy working in a list that's already got lots of points invested in combat/leadership characters. There just aren't enough points to go around.

With regards to the ogres; if he fields a list like that, Swordmaster, I think you'll be in good shape actually. The thundertusk is your main liability in my eyes, but remember that it's every model in 6", not every unit. Beyond that, those mournfangs pack a huge whallop, but at the end of the day they're only 3 wounds each. We high elves excel at taking out expensive wounds with our ASF, so I'd look at trying to combine your forces to put some hurt on those guys. At the end of the day, they're only 9 wound units.

Lots of templates heading your way, so I'd be sure to consider pha's protection in your deployment phase; try to maximise the coverage you'll have during your first turn.

Lore of Death on the Slaughtermaster is an interesting choice, but it certainly makes his intentions clear. He's going to be trying to take out your characters and advancing aggressively with that unit. I'd look at devoting your distraction units at slowing it down, forcing him to throw extra dice at his spells to increase the range, and hopefully drop a couple miscast templates of his own on his units.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#46 Post by Siegfried VII »

Brewmaster_D wrote: See, I've had the complete opposite experience. Lore of light has so many more useful spells than just banishment. I'm all in favour of two mages, however when trying to squeeze in a combat prince as well (who costs as many points as another small unit of elites himself), you're simply giving up too many troops to achieve a +2 S boost on an unreliable (could be 2 hits, could be 12) spell that relies on an unreliable phase (people will always prioritize dispelling banishment if they see you're over-invested in it)

The real issue at hand here, is that if you're going to invest in a "coven of light", focusing on high strength banishments, I firmly believe you need to go all in or not at all. You need to have at least the following: Archmage, Level 2 with a seerstaff (for a second banishment), Banner of Sorcery, +1 pd item that slips my mind at the moment. If you've invested 600+ points and you only have one instance of banishment to cast, you've just set up the easiest magic phase you could possibly create for your opponent. I don't see this type of strategy working in a list that's already got lots of points invested in combat/leadership characters. There just aren't enough points to go around.
I wasn't until recently aware of the seerstaff and the ability it grants us to have two banishments (or two of the same spells from other lores too), so you are right.

What I would use and propose now (with my newly aquired knowledge) is:

Archmage Lv4 with Annulian Crystal,
Mage Lv2 with Seerstaff,
Battle Standard Bearer with Radiant Gem of Hoeth,
And the Banner of Sorcery on a unit.

With this set up (little above 600pts) you get two banishments at strength 6 without investing all that much.

And yes it is not that practical if you also carry close combat characters, but imo it can be done if played properly.
Brewmaster_D wrote: With regards to the Swordmasters - I view them as an all or nothing thing. One unit is a liability, since all shooting and magic missiles will find their way towards them. Two units, on the other hand, especially when combined with the lore of light, typically weather the storm. I have plenty of battle reports up that illustrate exactly what I mean. link
I still disagree here but I'll give a look at you battle reports. :)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#47 Post by Brewmaster_D »

What I would use and propose now (with my newly aquired knowledge) is:

Archmage Lv4 with Annulian Crystal,
Mage Lv2 with Seerstaff,
Battle Standard Bearer with Radiant Gem of Hoeth,
And the Banner of Sorcery on a unit.

With this set up (little above 600pts) you get two banishments at strength 6 without investing all that much.

And yes it is not that practical if you also carry close combat characters, but imo it can be done if played properly.
You and I can definitely agree here - this is a great setup. Unfortunately, it's missing the thread's namesake: The Cavalry prince. At this point we're moving away from the original theme of Swordmaster's list, which is cavalry based list with light magic support.

My only other concern here is that the BSB would be relatively unprotected unless mounted, in which case it would often be out of range to confer its rerolls and also out of range of the Strength bonus for banishment. This concern is minor though.
True, but then with a single Archmage he is also tempting target as killing him will give the opponent complete magic domination and will leave my army with very poor defense. In that case the addition of level 2 is quite handy as he has dispel abilities of level 3 in other armies and can still cast some useful spells.
Don't get me wrong here; I'm all for two mages. I sing that setup's praise constantly. The issue isn't so much the mage setup, it's the overall character setup. Taking a prince and a BSB means you're committing to having a heavily combat based army - after all, almost 500 points are devoted to combat/leadership based characters. But then you also want to commit to a heavy magic based list, so you've invested almost 600 points in magic. Always remember the opportunity cost of any choice you make - for every extra character you put in there, that's less troops you get to take, and the less your list is able to take casualties and still function. So the question is, do each of these characters provide *enough* benefit to you to justify sacrificing their equivalent in troops? In my eyes, it's either one or the other at this point range - go magic heavy, drop the prince, protect the Archmage well and support him with a secondary caster *or* commit to combat, invest more sparsely in magic and focus on doing magic well.

I wrote an article on writing army lists a while back: link. I think in this case, where I'm struggling a bit is trying to identify what the primary objective of this list is? Is it a list that focuses on fast moving, hard hitting units? Or is it a list that focuses on magical domination?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#48 Post by Siegfried VII »

Brewmaster_D wrote: My only other concern here is that the BSB would be relatively unprotected unless mounted, in which case it would often be out of range to confer its rerolls and also out of range of the Strength bonus for banishment. This concern is minor though.
In this Set up the bsb will remain in the same unit as the Mages to offer his leaderhip ability and be out of harm's way. This BsB is not made for combat.

His rerolls are a must for the Mages unit mainly and secondary for others. Combine that with a Standard of Discipline on the unit and you have 10 with reroll.

The cavalry Prince can be included if Swordmaster wants, becuse the Mage Knight bsb will replace the combat BsB he has, so it won't be that far from his current set up.

Of course he doen't have to play so magic heavy and could go with more minimal choices. :)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#49 Post by SpellArcher »

Gwydion took this triple set-up (with BSB) to the ETC for Germany.

Anyone know how he did?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#50 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I haven't found his particular results but it seems he didn't do that great:

http://www.rankingshq.com/etc/tournamen ... SystemId=2

I will try to search for some battle reports later of HE players at ETC and see how did they do but in general it seems HE did not performed great. :(

As to the discussion I will definitely comment on your comments and suggestions :)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#51 Post by SpellArcher »

He only posts here occasionally but I'll PM him.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I will try to search for some battle reports later of HE players at ETC and see how did they do but in general it seems HE did not performed great.
I will start a thread about this in the Warhammer Fantasy forum.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#52 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi SpellArcher!

I have already tried to discuss HE performance at ETC here: Elves at ETC but I would gladly discuss it again, hopefully with some insight from participants too. :)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#53 Post by SpellArcher »

Quite right of course Swordmaster.

Should have clarified. I've posted about HE performance in general.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#54 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks a lot for more comments! I really appreciate your input :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:See, I've had the complete opposite experience. Lore of light has so many more useful spells than just banishment. I'm all in favour of two mages, however when trying to squeeze in a combat prince as well (who costs as many points as another small unit of elites himself), you're simply giving up too many troops to achieve a +2 S boost on an unreliable (could be 2 hits, could be 12) spell that relies on an unreliable phase (people will always prioritize dispelling banishment if they see you're over-invested in it)
The reason I decided to take Light is that it is very versatile lore and I think it suits my army very well. I can have a good magic phase regardless of how strong winds of magic are. Thus so called unreliable magic phase becomes more stable. It also has spells which are relatively easy to cast (especially with Archmage) but can affect several units if you want to. But it is not separate from other components of the army. The same goes for the Prince. Yes, he is expensive but he is exactly like another unit in the army. And he can perform things other units cannot. He is faster than any elite infantry and is very hard to kill so he can deny wounds to the enemy and save his fragile companions. He is well equipped to fight monsters, hopefully weakened by magic but he can deal with them alone or with his knights. Basically nothing in this army fight alone.
Brewmaster_D wrote:With regards to the Swordmasters - I view them as an all or nothing thing. One unit is a liability, since all shooting and magic missiles will find their way towards them. Two units, on the other hand, especially when combined with the lore of light, typically weather the storm. I have plenty of battle reports up that illustrate exactly what I mean. link
I really like this unit (surprise, surprise) but our army is the one where you simply cannot have everything. So one has to make some choices. I am aware one unit of Swordmasters can be killed quickly but that is why I want to play aggresively with heavy cavalry so they have a chance to reach combat. It does not work every time but then they didn't die each battle either.
Brewmaster_D wrote:The real issue at hand here, is that if you're going to invest in a "coven of light", focusing on high strength banishments, I firmly believe you need to go all in or not at all. You need to have at least the following: Archmage, Level 2 with a seerstaff (for a second banishment), Banner of Sorcery, +1 pd item that slips my mind at the moment. If you've invested 600+ points and you only have one instance of banishment to cast, you've just set up the easiest magic phase you could possibly create for your opponent. I don't see this type of strategy working in a list that's already got lots of points invested in combat/leadership characters. There just aren't enough points to go around.
Your point is valid but I do not plan my battles around casting Banishment with as high strength as possible. However, to put a proper pressure on the opponent I have to threaten him with something and make him choose between two evils. If I have S5 banishment to cast among other spells I will make a hard choice for him. Either take it and face the punishment for units which he needs to be intact for incoming combat or let me cast spells which will aid my troops in combat in another way. I invested in a second Light mage (I guess we already agreed on the mertis of having second mage in general :)) to have enough spells to choose from in any situation. And it is to add to the whole army as I have mentioned before not just to have that fantastic ability to cast powerful banishment. If I were to go for full Coven of Light I would even consider taking enough of Light mages to have it at S7 without combat characters (BSB excluded). But this is not this type of an army.
Brewmaster_D wrote:With regards to the ogres; if he fields a list like that, Swordmaster, I think you'll be in good shape actually. The thundertusk is your main liability in my eyes, but remember that it's every model in 6", not every unit. Beyond that, those mournfangs pack a huge whallop, but at the end of the day they're only 3 wounds each. We high elves excel at taking out expensive wounds with our ASF, so I'd look at trying to combine your forces to put some hurt on those guys. At the end of the day, they're only 9 wound units.
Recent news on army list development of my opponent are that he is not going to have Maneaters this time due to lack of points. I think it means 4 Mournfangs in each unit. I hope to be able to use the fact he needs to keep his army together to my advantage. If he deploys some units on far flanks they might be in difficult position as I could attack them with superiour force while he might not be able to support them. On the other hand teams like Mournfang+Scrappie can be tough to crack anyway. I think it is also easy to underestimate the enemy with few models. If you look at the number of wounds, however, you migth find they are not that different. And these wounds are usually T4. In the case of Mournfang cavalry 3-4 models is the same as 9-12 knights. That is powerful unit on it's own. The important thing would be to be able to divide his battle line so eagles, reavers and probably dragon princes will have some wrok to do :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:Lots of templates heading your way, so I'd be sure to consider pha's protection in your deployment phase; try to maximise the coverage you'll have during your first turn.
Indeed the ability to cast Pha's Protection will be a very helpful thing to do.
Brewmaster_D wrote:Lore of Death on the Slaughtermaster is an interesting choice, but it certainly makes his intentions clear. He's going to be trying to take out your characters and advancing aggressively with that unit. I'd look at devoting your distraction units at slowing it down, forcing him to throw extra dice at his spells to increase the range, and hopefully drop a couple miscast templates of his own on his units.
This is also my plan. I also noticed that Death sniping spells are direct damage so being out of front arch or in combat can further increase my protection against his attempts.
Siegfried VII wrote: What I would use and propose now (with my newly aquired knowledge) is:

Archmage Lv4 with Annulian Crystal,
Mage Lv2 with Seerstaff,
Battle Standard Bearer with Radiant Gem of Hoeth,
And the Banner of Sorcery on a unit.

With this set up (little above 600pts) you get two banishments at strength 6 without investing all that much.

And yes it is not that practical if you also carry close combat characters, but imo it can be done if played properly.
Yet another interesting character set up :) Definitely worth considering. Even with standard, combat orientated BSB.
Brewmaster_D wrote:Don't get me wrong here; I'm all for two mages. I sing that setup's praise constantly. The issue isn't so much the mage setup, it's the overall character setup. Taking a prince and a BSB means you're committing to having a heavily combat based army - after all, almost 500 points are devoted to combat/leadership based characters. But then you also want to commit to a heavy magic based list, so you've invested almost 600 points in magic. Always remember the opportunity cost of any choice you make - for every extra character you put in there, that's less troops you get to take, and the less your list is able to take casualties and still function. So the question is, do each of these characters provide *enough* benefit to you to justify sacrificing their equivalent in troops? In my eyes, it's either one or the other at this point range - go magic heavy, drop the prince, protect the Archmage well and support him with a secondary caster *or* commit to combat, invest more sparsely in magic and focus on doing magic well.
But this is my point, that in order to suppoert my army with magic properly I need to build up such a magic phase that I can cast some spells every time. With a single mage I could not do that. I do not plan to overwhelm my opponent with magic and kill his troops with powerful banishment, cast as many times as possible (even twice per magic phase as the new set-up enables).

Let's reverse the question then. :) With 175 points (the point cost of the level 2 mage) do you think you add enough to the army to make up for weaker magic phase and less support for your troops?
Brewmaster_D wrote:I wrote an article on writing army lists a while back: link. I think in this case, where I'm struggling a bit is trying to identify what the primary objective of this list is? Is it a list that focuses on fast moving, hard hitting units? Or is it a list that focuses on magical domination?
I am definitely going back to your article, it is a very good read :)
As to your question it is the combat orientated army with missile and magical support in amount I feel is strong enough to do what I want it to do. I haven't neglected your advice and I am still considering the idea for an army you gave but I also have some of my own experience and want to try this particular build with its advantages and disadvantages as I strongly believe I can make it work. But to add something valuable to our discussion here I need more games under my belt with it to either find out you are right or that it can really work for me. :)

As to the upcoming battle I am considering the following:

1. Deploy units in 2 ranks (infantry) and 1 rank (cavalry) to minimize number of casualties from template weapons.
2. Deploy them deeper in deployment zone to encourage his more aggressive approach towards my lines and give me a better opportunity to break with my cavalry behind his line. This will also keep my wizards at longer range for Hellheart and Death Magic spells.
3. Hunt down Thundertusk. I think I might be able to hunt down the beast with the Prince and Knights even without re-rolls. It has huge fronatage so I will be able to put all attacks from them against it and with armour save of 5+ I have a good chance to kill it.
SpellArcher wrote:Quite right of course Swordmaster.

Should have clarified. I've posted about HE performance in general.
I thought you might want to expand the discussion in that direction. Excellent! I am lloking forward to reading your initial thooughts in that topic and to participate in the discussion! :)

Cheers!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#55 Post by SpellArcher »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Recent news on army list development of my opponent are that he is not going to have Maneaters this time due to lack of points.
This helps you I think. You should be able to out-deploy him now.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#56 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Well, if he does not have Maneaters it will make things easier in terms of deployment. On the other hand he is still experimenting with different ideas so he might still change his mind :) Will see today. :)

On the subject of character choice I started to wonder (again) if it is possible to create effective magical phase with 2 level 2 Light wizards. I don't have experience with that set-up but when I played a single level 2 mage at 2000 points it was not that bad. However, I have not faced a dedicated wizard council on the other side either. My main concern is magical defense really. +5 to dispel from the Archmage is a huge advantage over just +3 (although it can be +4 with a magic item).

Cheers!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#57 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: On the subject of character choice I started to wonder (again) if it is possible to create effective magical phase with 2 level 2 Light wizards. I don't have experience with that set-up but when I played a single level 2 mage at 2000 points it was not that bad. However, I have not faced a dedicated wizard council on the other side either. My main concern is magical defense really. +5 to dispel from the Archmage is a huge advantage over just +3 (although it can be +4 with a magic item).
So funny you bring that up. I've actually been giving this exact topic quite a bit of thought lately. Almost every list you see on here has an archmage (and with good reason). The question on my mind, however, is can we do without? With the access we have to top notch defensive magic items my thinking was whether or not you could build an effective list around two defensively set up Level 2's, both with high utility, low casting cost lores - perhaps light and high? I'm still in the theory stage of this, so I'd love to hear any input you have on it too!
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I really like this unit (surprise, surprise) but our army is the one where you simply cannot have everything. So one has to make some choices. I am aware one unit of Swordmasters can be killed quickly but that is why I want to play aggresively with heavy cavalry so they have a chance to reach combat. It does not work every time but then they didn't die each battle either.
I think this actually sums up what I'm trying to get across quite well Swordmaster. Right now, your list is like a really aggressive player in chess - your offense is your defense. The enemies don't have time to focus on your swordmasters when they have cavalry bearing down on their artillery and shooting. The strategy works great provided you can create that pressure. Where it will struggle, however, is when the opponent can effectively delay/redirect that pressure. With that gone, you're stuck with a very offensive list that can't generate the pressure it needs to control the battles and make them happen on your terms. Nothing wrong at all with this type of strategy, but it is a gambit, and as such (and like I mentioned before) your margin for error is very small.

My suggestions are merely ones to give you an idea of what I'd do to make the list a bit less of a gambit and a bit less "all in" so to speak. Sometimes it can be worthwhile to have other ideas in your head while you're playing matches so you can think about what the match would have been like with certain changes.

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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#58 Post by Gwydion »

Hi Swordmaster,

nice thread you have here :). SpellArcher asked me to share some thougths about the coven of light. First of all I didn´t write about the ETC because day two was a complete disaster for me (was feeling ill and such).

About the coven and your army:

I prefer playing the BSB as a sole supporter. Therefore he´ll never be in combat and seldom dies. So I´d give the BSB the Radiant Gem and the Mage level 2 the Seerstaff. Now you even have some points left over. Purpose of this setup is the really strong additional "shooting phase". It lets you handle a lot of things (Like removing the pesky salamanders. You even have the chance of destroying an empire cannon in one go. Demons and Vampires will simply hate you :twisted: ). It will add to a playstyle where you have supreme control in the movement phase. Not a bad thing for high elves. :D Especially with such strong and fast elements which are able to seize every advantage you gain in the "two" shooting phases.

I made the mistake of adding two units of spearelves whereas many archer (like in krysiths tactica) would have been the much better choice.


As a side note: At most tournaments in Germany this setup is not allowed as it was felt too strong in a comped environment. :)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#59 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Brewmaster_D wrote:So funny you bring that up. I've actually been giving this exact topic quite a bit of thought lately. Almost every list you see on here has an archmage (and with good reason). The question on my mind, however, is can we do without? With the access we have to top notch defensive magic items my thinking was whether or not you could build an effective list around two defensively set up Level 2's, both with high utility, low casting cost lores - perhaps light and high? I'm still in the theory stage of this, so I'd love to hear any input you have on it too!
I tried Light + High setup once with two level 2 wizards against Empire and I still lost :) The thing is that they had no problems with casting their spells at all (as they are low cost as you have already mentioned). The main problem would be with dispelling. Hence, if I were to take two wizards like that I would consider one with Annulian Crystal (which everyone loves :)) and either Dispel Scrol, Sigil of Asuryan or Staff of Sorcery. In particular the last item is tempting a it will give us the opportunity to dispel as any other wizard lord. If I were to try it again I would also go for single lore. High magic seems to be a good one too but either way I would focus on having as many spells from particular lore as possible. Another reason to take 2 level 2 is that it looks like a challenge. And you get around 170 points to spend on more troops. I definietly need to think about it again. :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:I think this actually sums up what I'm trying to get across quite well Swordmaster. Right now, your list is like a really aggressive player in chess - your offense is your defense. The enemies don't have time to focus on your swordmasters when they have cavalry bearing down on their artillery and shooting. The strategy works great provided you can create that pressure. Where it will struggle, however, is when the opponent can effectively delay/redirect that pressure. With that gone, you're stuck with a very offensive list that can't generate the pressure it needs to control the battles and make them happen on your terms. Nothing wrong at all with this type of strategy, but it is a gambit, and as such (and like I mentioned before) your margin for error is very small.
Thanks! I could not explain that better :) And indeed there is this high risk, low error margin factor. As you could see from my last report this is exactly what happened. When my cavalry were contained I could nolonger maintain the pressure, lost initiative and had to watch as my army disintegrates quickly. One way to prevent that is to be able to come up with tactics which helps to maintain pressure. Another is further change to the list. :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:My suggestions are merely ones to give you an idea of what I'd do to make the list a bit less of a gambit and a bit less "all in" so to speak. Sometimes it can be worthwhile to have other ideas in your head while you're playing matches so you can think about what the match would have been like with certain changes.
And I am grateful for your (and anybody else too!) input. Believe me, I do consider every piece of advice I get here. It would not be good, however, if I were to change my army after each post as then I would have no army of my own. I already use a lot of borrowed ideas just to try them out. And I think I will anyway. I just hope that even with that I can have my unique style of play. You have already noticed I prefer attacking-chess approach :) And you may never know, I might eventually come back to what was suggested before after trying different options in the meantime. Indeed, I alread try to think how would a little different army list tackle the problems I had in my last battle in particular where, as you were afraid, I had not enough troops to prevail and my characters died horribly before they could help much.
Gwydion wrote:Hi Swordmaster,

nice thread you have here :). SpellArcher asked me to share some thougths about the coven of light. First of all I didn´t write about the ETC because day two was a complete disaster for me (was feeling ill and such).
Hi Gwydion,
Thanks for posting here (and many thanks to SpellArcher who convienced you to add your experience to this topic! :))
Gwydion wrote:About the coven and your army:

I prefer playing the BSB as a sole supporter. Therefore he´ll never be in combat and seldom dies. So I´d give the BSB the Radiant Gem and the Mage level 2 the Seerstaff. Now you even have some points left over. Purpose of this setup is the really strong additional "shooting phase". It lets you handle a lot of things (Like removing the pesky salamanders. You even have the chance of destroying an empire cannon in one go. Demons and Vampires will simply hate you :twisted: ). It will add to a playstyle where you have supreme control in the movement phase. Not a bad thing for high elves. :D Especially with such strong and fast elements which are able to seize every advantage you gain in the "two" shooting phases.
Where do you keep him (and other mages for that matter)? I presume you need a character bunker or something like that to be able to hide characters there and be able to influence the game with them anyway. I really like my BSB who fights now but I am still considering other options. I agree it might add nicely to the army while not at the cost of another mage. Would you consider the coven of light with 2 x level 2 and BSB with RGoH? Or do you still need an Archmage to make it work?
Gwydion wrote:I made the mistake of adding two units of spearelves whereas many archer (like in krysiths tactica) would have been the much better choice.
Feel free to post an army list you would take instead. A pity ETC didn't go well for you but if you are willing to add some extra ideas based on your most recent experience (good or bad :)) then I am sure other members would benefit from your insight too. :)
Gwydion wrote:As a side note: At most tournaments in Germany this setup is not allowed as it was felt too strong in a comped environment. :)
That is interesting. Do you have a heavy composition rules at your tournaments? What limits exactly did prevent this particular set up?

Well, as to the army list I guess I need some changes again :) I have just lost my Archmage last battle due to Hellheart and not having Staff of Solidity I had previous game. I consider this a very useful item for the Archmage and it was painful indeed not to have it.

I am also disappointed with my constant low dice rolling for flee distance of Ellyrian Reavers (or failing to rally them afterwards). I really like that unit but I am simply very unlucky with dice rolls for them in particular. I could get rid of them and try to find some points for yet another 5 Dragon Princes. What do you think?

Cheers!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince by SoH - updated first post & army list

#60 Post by SpellArcher »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I already use a lot of borrowed ideas just to try them out. And I think I will anyway. I just hope that even with that I can have my unique style of play.
I think you have, Swordmaster. You started out from Seredain's list but are clearly following your own, very interesting path. For me, so much of progress comes from taking ideas and trying them out in new situations. In fact having copied your thread, I'm also copying your open-minded approach to list writing.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Would you consider the coven of light with 2 x level 2 and BSB with RGoH?
Harder to roll double Banishment I suggest?

On the Reavers I think they are great and they've done suprisingly well for me so far. Especially compared to Shadow Warriors which haven't, the reverse of what I found under 7th. But if they aren't working for you, maybe try something else out for a while?

Thanks for posting Gwydion, your experience is very valuable.
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