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 Post subject: Good bye
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:14 pm 
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Greetings!

In this topic I discuss army lists I use in my games. I started with cavalry prince army inspired by Seredain. However, after some time I switched to Multiple Small Units concept and I continue with it since then. Below you will have a list of all my battle reports and if you click any link it will direct you to the battle report from that particular game.

And yet there is another change. After the end of 8th edition I was very hopeful for 9th Age, fan based continuation of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. After initial enthusiasm, the more I played that game and the more I observed the direction the changes take place, the more I realized it is not what I hoped it could evolve to. Sadly, I will not continue with playing games and writing battle reports with that set. It is possible that I will come back to it once it is more stable and mature. But I remain very skeptical about it. I do hope the project will be successful for those who create it and those who like the direction it is heading.

That left me with Kings of War at the moment and fortunately I like the system. It is young in comparison but there are many things I like about it and I hope you will appreciate the reports from this game too.

Enjoy!

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Kings of War

The Valley of Kings 4

Battle 65 (2017/11/11) - 1200 vs Elves

Battle 64 (2017/11/08) - 1200 vs Night Stalkers

Battle 63 (2017/11/07) - 1200 vs Undead

Battle 62 (2017/11/04) - 1200 vs Forces of the Abyss

Battle 61 (2017/11/01) - 1200 vs Elves

Edge of the Abyss

Battle 60 (2017/09/27) - 2000 vs Empire of Dust

Battle 59 (2017/09/24) - 2000 vs Night Stalkers

Battle 58 (2017/09/15) -2000 vs Undead

Battle 57 (2017/09/12) - 2000 vs Orcs

Battle 56 (2017/09/10) - 2000 vs Twilight Kin

Valley of Kings 3.1

Battle 55 (2017/09/07) - 2000 vs Trident Realms

Battle 54 (2017/09/02) - 2000 vs Forces of Basilea

Battle 53 (2017/08/31) - 2000 vs Ogres

Battle 52 (2017/08/26) - 2000 vs Dwarfs

KoW Games

Battle 10 (2015/12/05) - 2000 vs Forces of Abyss

Battle 9 (2015/11/27) - 2000 vs Salamanders

Battle 8 (2015/11/18) - 2000 vs Forces of Abyss

Battle 7 (2015/11/12) - 2000 vs Forces of Abyss

Battle 6 (2015/11/05) - 2000 vs Basileans

Battle 5 (2015/11/02) - 2000 vs Orcs

Battle 4 (2015/10/25) - 2000 vs Basileans

Battle 3 (2015/10/23) - 2000 vs Orcs

Battle 2 (2015/09/20) - 2000 vs Empire of Dust

Battle 1 (2015/09/10) - 2000 vs Empire of Dust

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9th Age

Battle 167 (2015/10/09) - 2400 vs Reptilians

Battle 166 (2015/10/09) - 2400 vs Dark Elves

Battle 165 (2015/09/15) - 2400 vs Elves of Nature

Battle 164 (2015/09/15) - 2400 vs High Elves

Battle 163 (2015/09/02) - 2400 vs Wood Elves

8th Edition Continues

Battle 162 (2015/08/09) - 2400 vs High Elves

Battle 161 (2015/07/27) - 2500 vs Skaven

Battle 161 (2015/07/27) - 2500 vs Skaven

Battle 160 (2015/07/16) - 2400 vs Tomb Kings

Battle 159 (2015/06/27) - 2400 vs Beastmen

Battle 158 (2015/06/13) - 2400 vs Star Dragon

Battle 157 (2015/06/09) - 2700 vs Empire

Battle 156 (2015/05/25) - 2400 vs High Elves

CanCon 2015

Battle 155 (2015/03/28) - Battle 8 - 2400 vs Ogre Kingdoms

Battle 154 (2015/03/23) - Battle 7 - 2400 vs Beastmen

Battle 153 (2015/03/20) - Battle 6 - 2400 vs Lizardmen

Battle 152 (2015/03/13) - Battle 5 - 2400 vs Orcs & Goblins

Battle 151 (2015/03/06) - Battle 4 - 2400 vs Dark Elves

Battle 150 (2015/02/23) - Battle 3 - 2400 vs Warriors of Chaos

Battle 149 (2015/02/12) - Battle 2 - 2400 vs High Elves

Battle 148 (2015/02/02) - Battle 1 - 2400 vs High Elves

MiniMe 2014

Battle 147 (2014/12/31) - Battle 5 - 2400 vs Vampire Counts

Battle 146 (2014/12/27) - Battle 4 - 2400 vs Bretonnia

Battle 145 (2014/12/24) - Battle 3 - 2400 vs High Elves

Battle 144 (2014/12/17) - Battle 2 - 2400 vs Lizardmen

Battle 143 (2014/12/12) - Battle 1 - 2400 vs Vampire Counts

Yet another chapter!

Battle 142 (2014/10/09) - 2500 vs Empire

Battle 141 (2014/09/28) - 2400 vs Strigoi King

Battle 140 (2014/09/13) - 2400 vs Star Dragon

Battle 139 (2014/08/31) - 2500 vs Lizardmen

Battle 138 (2014/08/25) - 2400 vs Dwarves

Battle 137 (2014/08/20) - 2400 vs Ogre Kingdoms

Battle 136 (2014/08/02) - 2500 vs Empire

Battle 135 (2014/07/30) - 2400 vs High Elves

Battle 134 (2014/07/17) - 2500 vs Double Wyvern - a rematch

Battle 133 (2014/07/02) - 2500 vs Double Wyvern

ANUWTF 2014

Battle 132 (2014/06/07) - Battle 5 - 2400 vs Easterlings of Chaos

Battle 131 (2014/05/28) - Battle 4 - 2400 vs Monsters of Chaos

Battle 130 (2014/05/20) - Battle 3 - 2400 vs Warriors of Tzeentch

Battle 129 (2014/05/13) - Battle 2 - 2400 vs Beastmen

Battle 128 (2014/05/11) - Battle 1 - 2400 vs Dwarves

UB game

Battle 127 (2014/04/11) - 2400 vs Monsters of Chaos

CanCon 2014

Battle 126 (2014/03/25) - Game 8 - 2400 vs High Elves

Battle 125 (2014/03/20) - Game 7 - 2400 vs Dwarves

Battle 124 (2014/03/11) - Game 6 - 2400 vs Dwarves

Battle 123 (2014/03/02) - Game 5 - 2400 vs Lizardmen

Battle 122 (2014/02/22) - Game 4 - 2400 vs Empire

Battle 121 (2014/02/13) - Game 3 - 2400 vs Wood Elves

Battle 120 (2014/02/09) - Game 2 - 2400 vs Lizardmen

Battle 119 (2014/02/03) - Game 1 - 2400 vs Warriors of Chaos

Hammer of Dave 2

Battle 118 (2014/01/28) - Game 5 - 2400 vs Lizardmen

Battle 117 (2014/01/23) - Game 4 - 2400 vs Dwarves

Battle 116 (2014/01/21) - Game 3 - 2400 vs Bretonnia

Battle 115 (2014/01/17) - Game 2 - 2400 vs Daemons of Chaos

Battle 114 (2014/01/14) - Game 1 - 2400 vs Dark Elves

Friendly 2500

Battle 113 (2014/01/07) - 2500 vs. Empire

Australian Masters - 2013

Battle 112 (2013/12/31) - Battle 6 - 2400 vs. Empire

Battle 111 (2013/12/26) - Battle 5 - 2400 vs. Warriors of Chaos

Battle 110 (2013/12/18) - Battle 4 - 2400 Vampire Counts vs. Lizardmen

Battle 109 (2013/12/13) - Battle 3 - 2400 High Elves vs. Dwarves

Battle 108 (2013/12/09) - Battle 2 - 2400 vs. Vampire Counts

Battle 107 (2013/12/04) - Battle 1 - 2400 vs. High Elves

Castle Assault - 2013

Battle 106 (2013/11/25) - Battle 5 - 2400 vs. Lizardmen

Battle 105 (2013/11/10) - Battle 4 - 2400 vs. Warriors of Chaos

Battle 104 (2013/11/04) - Battle 3 - 2400 vs. High Elves

Battle 103 (2013/10/29) - Battle 2 - 2400 vs. Lizardmen

Battle 102 (2013/10/23) - Battle 1 - 2400 vs. Beastmen of Chaos

ConVic - 2013

Battle 101 (2013/08/03) - Battle 6 - 2400 vs. Daemons of Chaos

Battle 100 (2013/07/31) - Battle 5 - 2400 vs. Warriors of Chaos

Battle 99 (2013/07/24) - Battle 4 - 2400 vs. Ard Boyz

Battle 98 (2013/07/24) - Battle 3 - 2400 vs. Khorne Daemons

Battle 97 (2013/07/21) - Battle 2 - 2400 vs. Tzeentch Warriors

Battle 96 (2013/07/19) - Battle 1 - 2400 vs. Dark Elves

New Beginnings

Battle 95 (2013/06/30) - 2400 vs. Daemons of Chaos

Battle 94 (2013/06/26) - 2400 vs. Warriors of Chaos

Battle 93 (2013/06/20) - 2400 vs. Monsters of Chaos

Battle 92 (2013/06/17) - 2400 vs. Wood Elves

Battle 91 (2013/05/20) - 2400 vs. Vampire Counts

ANUWTF

Battle 90 (2013/05/12) - Battle 6 - 2500 vs. Dwarves

Battle 89 (2013/05/04) - Battle 5 - 2500 vs. Orcs & Goblins

Battle 88 (2013/04/28) - Battle 4 - 2500 vs. High Elves

Battle 87 (2013/04/23) - Battle 3 - 2500 vs. Warriors of Chaos

Battle 86 (2013/04/19) - Battle 2 - 2500 vs. Skaven

Battle 85 (2013/04/16) - Battle 1 - 2500 vs. High Elves

Heavy Metal - part 2

Battle 84 (2013/04/10) - 2500 vs. Monsters of Chaos

QNK Joust 9.0

Battle 83 (2013/04/02) - Battle 3 - 2400 vs. Beastmen

Battle 82 (2013/03/28) - Battle 2 - 2400 vs. Empire

Battle 81 (2013/03/25) - Battle 1 - 2400 vs. High Elves

Heavy Metal

Battle 80 (2013/02/28) - 3000 vs. Strigoi

CanCon 2013

Battle 79 (2013/02/28) - Battle 8 - 2400 vs. Empire

Battle 78 (2013/02/23) - Battle 7 - 2400 vs. Warriors of Chaos

Battle 77 (2013/02/20) - Battle 6 - 2400 vs. Dark Elves

Battle 76 (2013/02/17) - Battle 5 - 2400 vs. Chaos Dwarves

Battle 75 (2013/02/13) - Battle 4 - 2400 vs. Lizardmen

Battle 74 (2013/02/06) - Battle 3 - 2400 vs. Wood Elves

Battle 73 (2013/02/03) - Battle 2 - 2400 vs. Empire

Battle 72 (2013/01/28) - Battle 1 - 2400 vs. Dwarves

The Road to CanCon 2013

Battle 71 (2013/01/28) - 2400 vs. Dark Elves

Battle 70 (2013/01/22) - 2400 vs. Dark Elves

Battle 69 (2013/01/20) - 2400 vs. Empire

Battle 68 (2012/12/29) - 2400 vs. Lizardmen

Battle 67 (2012/12/29) - 2400 vs. Skaven

Battle 66 (2012/12/09) - 2400 vs. Skaven

The Hammer of Dave

Battle 65 (2012/11/24) - Battle 05 - 2400 vs. Bretonnia

Battle 63 (2012/11/17) - Battle 04 - 2400 vs. Vampire Counts

Battle 62 (2012/11/15) - Battle 03 - 2400 vs. Daemons

Battle 61 (2012/11/10) - Battle 02 - 2400 vs. Lizardmen

Battle 60 (2012/11/07) - Battle 01 - 2400 vs. Dark Elves

MSU HE - next generation

Battle 59 (2012/10/07) - 2500 vs. Dark Elves

Battle 58 (2012/10/07) - 2500 vs. High Elves

Battle 57 (2012/09/23) - 2500 vs. Vampire Counts

Battle 56 (2012/09/17) - 2500 vs. 2400 Bretonnia (ETC)

Battle 55 (2012/09/09) - 2500 vs. Dwarves

Battle 54 (2012/07/04) - 2500 vs. MSU Empire

Battle 53 (2012/07/01) - 2500 vs. Dwarves

Wintercon 2012

Battle 52 (2012/06/27) - Battle 08 - 2500 vs. High Elves

Battle 51 (2012/06/25) - Battle 07 - 2500 vs. Khorne Warriors

Battle 50 (2012/06/23) - Battle 06 - 2500 vs. Ogre Kingdoms

Battle 49 (2012/06/21) - Battle 05 - 2500 vs. Dwarves

Battle 48 (2012/06/19) - Battle 04 - 2500 vs. Empire

Battle 47 (2012/06/16) - Battle 03 - 2500 vs. Tomb Kings

Battle 46 (2012/06/14) - Battle 02 - 2500 vs. High Elves

Battle 45 (2012/06/12) - Battle 01 - 2500 vs. Bretonnia

MSU HE - the journey continues

Battle 44 (2012/05/18) - 2500 vs. Vampire Counts

Battle 43 (2012/05/06) - 2500 vs. Daemons of Chaos with Blood Thirster

Battle 42 (2012/04/21) - 2500 vs. Beasts of Chaos

Battle 41 (2012/04/14) - 2500 vs. All Goblins

Battle 40 (2012/03/24) - 2500 vs. MSU Daemons of Chaos

Battle 39 (2012/03/17) - 2500 vs. Beasts of Chaos

Battle 38 (2012/03/11) - 2500 vs. MSU Dwarves

Battle 37 (2012/02/29) - 2500 vs. MSU Dwarves

Battle 36 (2012/02/26) - 2500 vs. Daemons of Chaos

CanCon 2012

Battle 35 (2012/02/12) - 2400 vs. Tomb Kings - Battle 8

Battle 34 (2012/02/11) - 2400 vs. Skaven - Battle 7

Battle 33 (2012/02/07) - 2400 vs. Warriors of Chaos - Battle 6

Battle 32 (2012/02/05) - 2400 vs. Warriors of Chaos - Battle 5

Battle 31 (2012/02/03) - 2400 vs. Ogre Kingdoms - Battle 4

Battle 30 (2012/02/02) - 2400 vs. High Elves - Battle 3

Battle 29 (2012/02/01) - 2400 vs. Lizardmen - Battle 2

Battle 28 (2012/01/30) - 2400 vs. High Elves - Battle 1

CanCon 2012 Preparation

Battle 27 (2012/01/22) - 2400 vs. Skaven

Battle 26 (2012/01/07) - 2400 vs. Bretonnia

Battle 25 (2011/12/23) - 2400 vs. Skaven

Battle 24 (2011/12/17) - 2400 vs. Beastmen

Battle 23 (2011/12/10) - 2400 vs. Daemons of Chaos

Battle 22 (2011/11/27) - 2400 vs. Daemons of Chaos

Battle 21 (2011/11/19) - 2400 vs. Daemons of Chaos

Battle 20 (2011/11/12) - 2400 vs. Orcs & Goblins

Evolution of the Army List

Battle 16 - 19(2011/09/24) - 2500 vs. New Ogre Kingdoms

Battle 14 - 15(2011/09/15) - 2000 vs. Orcs & Goblins

Battle 13 (2011/07/14) - 2400 vs. Bretonnia

Battle 12 (2011/07/09) - 2400 vs. Orcs & Goblins

Army List by Seredain

Battle 11 (2011/04/10) - 2400 vs. Bretonnia

Battle 10 (2011/04/07) - 2400 vs. Empire

Battle 9 (2011/04/07) - Tournament - 2400 vs. Old Tomb Kings

Battle 8 (2011/04/06) - Tournament - 2400 vs. Beastmen

Battle 7 (2011/04/04) - Tournament - 2400 vs. Dark Elves

Battle 6 (2011/04/03) - Tournament - 2400 vs. Dark Elves

Battle 5 (2011/03/29) - 2400 vs. Bretonnia

Battle 1 - 4 (2011/03/22) - 2400 vs. Vampire Counts

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Greetings!

As I have mentioned in my battle reports I want to refine the army list I have used so far. Here is the first draft:

Prince - Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune - 271

It is the same Prince as always but without his Talismans. I needed to cut his cost to include the Robe for Archmage. I would love to include The Other Trickster's Shard as I think it is more versatile item. But then I cannot have the Robe as for 2400 points I can spend 600 on Lord choices, so it is either Shard for the Prince and Guardian Phoenix for Archmage, or no Shard but Robe.

Archmage - Dispel Scroll, Folariath's Robe - 325

I hated when I lost my mage to a lucky shot or in close combat where he should not be in the first place. The Robe would make him immune to mundane attacks and maybe even let him save his unit by challenging some hero without magical weapon. I am tempted to give him Talisman of Saphery too. The lore is to be decided but I want him to protect my troops. I am thinking about the following:

Life - I haven't used that lore to the fullest potential yet. If I decide to do so I will always take a default spell to give regeneration to Archmage and his unit (Spearelves or Swordmasters). The best choice for other spells would be Flesh to Stone, Throne and Regrowth. I need him to keep my units alive, I am confident I can cut through hordes with my troops so Dwellers is not that necessary.

Light - there are some nice protective spells, some nice magic missiles and increasing WS and I can sometimes help to keep ASF granting its full effect. When I played against DE in particular, the fact they could lower initiative with Shadow meant I had no re-rolls and that is a big loss. Timewarp can be very useful too (16"+2D6 charge range anyone?, not to mention additional attacks)

High Magic - very versatile and easy to cast, so even when winds of magic blow low there is still a decent chance to cast some nice spells. Curse of Arrow Attraction can turn my shooters into real killers (and many times I rolled below average on my volleys), especially helping to re-roll that single bolt hits. Flame of the Phoenix are good against horde formations and even better with new rules for Remains in Play spell. While Vauls Unmaking can help to get rid of that Strom Banner etc. Shield of Saphery and Drain Magic are other very good spells. Courage of Aeanarion are less useful with steadfast but can be still nice to have around, especially that it affects all friendly units in 12". Fury of Khaine is always good to have :)

Battle Standard Bearer - Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone, Great Weapon - 168

Quite typical build and I used it to a great effect before with his Spearelves. It takes away some power from Silver Helms and I am yet to find out if he is going to be missed in that unit. However, in Spearelves, with their ranks and his combat abilities he can be dangerous. What is more, having him closer to other units means I would have that handy re-roll when I need it. My last games showed how much I missed him sometimes when he was at a flank with the Knights.

30 Spearelves - Full Command, Standard of Discipline - 310

With BSB among them they have LD10 and the best chances to pass panic tests I can give them. Their steadfast is then the best they can have too. So they can hold against many foe. They are very good and stalwart unit but I felt they needed some boost to be used more aggressively hence BSB and new standard.

12 Archers - Light Armour, Musician - 149
12 Archers - Light Armour, Musician - 149

I need musicians more than standards (although they have their uses) and I like Archers a lot. I was considering taking two big blocks of Spearelves but my army still needs some shooting to get rid of weapon teams, fast units etc. If combined with Repeaters, they can also target bigger units and soften them properly. I strongly believe HE need some form of shooting no matter what army they field.

14 Swordmasters - 210

14 is the number of new models I have to paint without command groups :) And they happen to be very useful at that size. 12 or 14 is not much of a difference but it is always good to have a few more warriors around. They would be close support for my Spearelves, able to charge to the front with them if there is a need as both units work perfectly together. On the other hand there is still an option to run 12 with Bladelord and magic item. Any suggestions?

5 Dragon Princes - Banner of Eternal Flame - 180

I must admit there is something magical about Dragon Riders, almost immune to fire but having flaming attacks :) I also wanted to give that banner to some unit and they seem to be the best candidate in the absence of White Lions.

9 Silver Helms - Musician - 215

The Knights. I am curious if they are going to perform well with the Prince only. I believe they would. I would like add High Helm and Standard though so maybe I will leave Swordmasters at 12 strong and upgrade Silver Helms instead. I was considering adding a Noble to that unit to replace BSB but decided against it as I wanted to include another cavalry in my list. It is still an option and I see some nice uses for a properly protected noble in that unit or alone, as situation dictates. Let me know what you think :)

5 Ellyrian Reavers - Spears and Bows - 105

I really like fast cavalry and I hope I can learn to use them properly this edition. I would like to use them as a distraction on my refused flank or try to draw some charges and eventually go past enemy lines. It can give me the opportunity to paint new models too although I have some nice ones from 5th edition, painted already. So I can put them to the test without fielding unpainted army :)

2 x Repeater - 200

Always useful although I need to learn how to protect them better. But I have never regretted taking them even against Empire when they were first target for cannons.

2 x Great Eagle - 100

As I mentioned before one Eagle is good, two are even better :)

So I spent 2382 points and have 18 to allocate somewhere. Standard for Silver Helms seems to be the first choice. I don't have chariot and White Lions anymore. I don't know how to use single chariot properly now so I decided to drop it. It was a difficult decision to let White Lions go, however. I really like that unit and I know they can be very dangerous. But I wanted to check some other options and wanted my army to be faster. So in the end I had to make room for other choices. I may still come back to them. My first thought was to just drop the chariot, add an eagle and spend 35 points elsewhere. The funny thing with tailoring the army list to my liking is that I would rather drop one archer unit and replace it with Ellyrian Reavers. Then I would have that nice opportunity to be more aggressive but retain some shooting which I find very useful. But I am not allowed to do so. :) I wish we have fast cavalry in Cores as DE :) Well, that is my first draft after some nice games with Seredain's list. Feel free to post any comments, suggestions etc.

Cheers! :)

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High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:18 am, edited 157 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:50 pm 
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I have followed your Battle reports closely and was wondering what changes you may do after the event.
I like the way the new list looks, i do think it may just be me tho that it looks like your lacking another CC support unit like a chariot. Out of interest have you just used normal chariots or have you tried the Lion chariots? If so how have you found they do?

I use Life magic now with my AM with the Seerstaff to make sure i get the spells i want. I find if i don't i never get what i want.lol. High magic was another lore i looked closely at so in afew games took a lvl 2 High magic mage. I found that it can be a very good lore but personally i felt i would only use it as a support lore to either Death/Shadow/Life.

Your spearmen and archers units are nice but have you considered using LSG and giving them the flaming banner to hurt/kill regen creatures from range?

Ellyrian Reavers i like in 8th, my DE(the shame i know) and OnG always use fast cav and they always do very well in their roles/jobs for me.

I would suggest adding a mus to these for 7pts leaving you with 11 pts. with these maybe add another spearmen i know that makes 31 but hayhoo or a mus for the Dragon Princes, just incase you draw a combat. Not sure tho TBH.

Fully agree with eagles never leave home without them.

Andy

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:12 pm 
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Great to see you try and tweak the list! I notice that yours look very similar to mine now, with the foot-bsb and 20 cavalry models (although you don't go for the 10 DP bus).

In general, I think this army fits your playstyle better. However, I'm not sure I think the Prince is really worth it any longer. Taking away the talisman to try and keep him cheap, I don't know. Perhaps you should try a mounted noble with great weapon instead? That's a lot of points saved but of course you lose out some damage potential too.

As I have yet to test my own list at its full 2500 points I'm unsure of how it'll hold up with this few elite infantry models. I'd really like to see how yours fare, I doubt I have time to playtest mine before May. I have a 1500 points game coming up on Sunday but that list is way more typical (ie less cavalry).

As for magic - I believe you should give High Magic a try! In my opinion, Life and Shadow require potent magic phases, provided by either BoS or Teclis. As you have neither, I would think that a cheap and useful lore such as High Magic would give you a lot more tactical flexibility. Basically throwing around cheap shields, flames and courage can be very, very useful! Add to that, vaul's can make up for some of your lack of elite infantry. Usually they're cut down by tough characters or monsters (if they get into combat), vaul's can help them against the killy lords around.

Normally I would advice against Reavers but I believe your playstyle might very well see them put to perfect use! I'm looking forward to seeing your results with them :)

As for the Swordmasters - did you consider White Lions instead? I would normally think survivability is key. I chose swordmasters over white lions for target saturation. At 2500 points I have 4 combat units: the swordmasters, spears with bsb, dpbus and helmbus with prince. I'm thinking that if I lose all of those I'm not going to win the game anyways, so the difference between swords and white lions are minimal. Add to that, I'm more concerned about hordes than tough nuts, so Swordmasters appear to be the better choice. I also have a Life archmage with a BoS in the army which helps out survivability tremendously.

In your case however, there are only 3 real combat units. You have played with both swords and lions for your last games so I'm curious as to why you chose the swords ;)

EDIT: I notice we have the same BSB config but yours is 4 pts cheaper. Seems good ol' Olannon forgot his calculator at home when making his army list because you're clearly right sir - that loadout is indeed 168 points ;) I love the army composition and reasoning behind e.g. archers btw!

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Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:29 pm 
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I have also been reading your well-written and entertaining battle reports.

I agree with Milliado's assessment that your biggest tactical problem is that your cavalry does not move in straight lines towards its goal. In battles 1, 3, & 5, there were each times when I thought "ok, here he's going to charge" but instead your killer cav units (SH or DP) would move in a way that avoided combat. I couldn't figure out why, until I realized that you didn't want to commit your cav units to a frontal assault, but instead were looking for a way to charge into a combat where you held the advantage. I understand that Seredain makes it look so easy when he runs his SH unit all the way around back for a turn 5 rear charge on the general's unit! He may be able to give you some better tips on how to achieve that. But the biggest problem with your army has not been its composition, but the fact that you have a 400+ killer unit which killed like 60 pts in some of those battles. I'm only being critical about this in an attempt to help you get the best bang for your buck, so please don't take this negatively.

Back to the army compositoin, I think you are right to get rid of the chariot. If you were to keep the chariot, you should learn to think of it as the rightmost or leftmost troops of your spearmen contingent. Chariots and spearmen are best friends, and should go into combat together. However, I don't think the chariot and spearmen are going to scare anyone.

I would like to put in a good word for my currently favorite unit, the 30 archer horde. They don't break steadfast like spears do, but they do so much more... Just adding that amount of shooting changes the game, and they receive a charge almost as well as the same number of spears. Note that 30 archers (10x3) throw 21 attacks against a 5 wide charger, while 30 spears (5x6) throw 25... the big advantage of spears is the extra ranks.

If you are looking for spare points, one option is to drop the prince to a noble. Give him GW and the potion of strength, and he has about as much hitting power for one turn while being much cheaper. How many rounds is the prince going to spend in combat anyways? It's not exactly a grinding unit.

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Haha! I'm guessing that the codename for this will be Operation Evil Bumrush.
Eldria wrote:

Close buts its a bit more Operation Chargeblerghvomitvomiteateat ooolook I grew an extra head


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Greetings,

I like the new version of your list. Some points though:
1. I would replace the prince for a noble - barded steed, dragon armour, helm of fortune, guardian phoenix, GW - 165, he is survivable and killy, and you save 100+
2. Light armour on archers is a waste, as way too many attacks would ignore it. It is better to buy more archers for the same points
3. AM - if you give him the FRobe, give him the talisman of Saphery
4. Add the Banner of Sorcery!

Other than the above issues, the list is solid

Cheers,
M


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:13 am 
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Just a crazy thought I had - did you ever consider not running Spearelves? I'm thinking - you're fond of shooting but your spears seem to do a lot of nothing. You could go for something like 60 archers in the core department (3x20 or something), ditch an rbt (or both!) and run a PG anvil for example.

Just a thought, but with your playstyle might just work!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:42 pm 
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tundrik wrote:
I have followed your Battle reports closely and was wondering what changes you may do after the event.
I like the way the new list looks, i do think it may just be me tho that it looks like your lacking another CC support unit like a chariot. Out of interest have you just used normal chariots or have you tried the Lion chariots? If so how have you found they do?

No, I had no opportunity to use Lion Chariots (I don't have models) but I think they have a very nice potential. What is more, they are still dangerous next round of combat. I would definitely include them in Chrace themed army. But my goal at the moment was to compose the army from models I already have. This gives me an opportunity to replace older models with new ones and with fresh paint on them :)

tundrik wrote:
I use Life magic now with my AM with the Seerstaff to make sure i get the spells i want. I find if i don't i never get what i want.lol. High magic was another lore i looked closely at so in afew games took a lvl 2 High magic mage. I found that it can be a very good lore but personally i felt i would only use it as a support lore to either Death/Shadow/Life.

I am still undecided. For the purpose of spell casting two level 2 are quite tempting. However, they are more expensive than solitary Archmage and don't have the same dispelling abilities. I was thinking about giving him Seerstaff but then it means I have no dispel scroll. Hard choice, especially that I considered giving him Sigil too! :)

tundrik wrote:
Your spearmen and archers units are nice but have you considered using LSG and giving them the flaming banner to hurt/kill regen creatures from range?

I tried LSG in a first place but I have quickly noticed that as the only ranked unit in the army they are needed in close combat so their shooting abilities are wasted. They also require more patience than I can at the moment muster :) Although I do not drop the idea of these units entirely. Maybe replacing 3 core units with 2 LSG would work too? I don't know at the moment and decided to test things I know I want to test now and I think I have an idea how I want them to work. I also do not want to change too much in one go.

tundrik wrote:
Ellyrian Reavers i like in 8th, my DE(the shame i know) and OnG always use fast cav and they always do very well in their roles/jobs for me.

I really like fast cavalry in general. I even tried it a few times but for bigger games. I just want to see if that single unit is going to be useful enough. It definitely makes the army faster. And I'd rather use them to bait some charges rather than eagles.

tundrik wrote:
I would suggest adding a mus to these for 7pts leaving you with 11 pts. with these maybe add another spearmen i know that makes 31 but hayhoo or a mus for the Dragon Princes, just incase you draw a combat. Not sure tho TBH.

Yes, musicians could be handy indeed so I will conider them as well :) Thanks!

tundrik wrote:
Fully agree with eagles never leave home without them.

Yeap! :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
Great to see you try and tweak the list! I notice that yours look very similar to mine now, with the foot-bsb and 20 cavalry models (although you don't go for the 10 DP bus).

I needed to make Spearelves stronger in terms of combat and LD tests so attaching BSB seemed like an obvious choice. As I said I am going to see if the Knights will do well without him.

Curu Olannon wrote:
In general, I think this army fits your playstyle better. However, I'm not sure I think the Prince is really worth it any longer. Taking away the talisman to try and keep him cheap, I don't know. Perhaps you should try a mounted noble with great weapon instead? That's a lot of points saved but of course you lose out some damage potential too.

Without BSB in a unit the Prince is a must. I also don't want him to go anyway, otherwise it would not be Cavalry Prince Army anymore :) But the more I think about it the more I see that I should give him the Shard and keep the unprotected Archmage. I can still try to cast spells to grant him some form of save but the Prince is a central character of the army :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
As I have yet to test my own list at its full 2500 points I'm unsure of how it'll hold up with this few elite infantry models. I'd really like to see how yours fare, I doubt I have time to playtest mine before May. I have a 1500 points game coming up on Sunday but that list is way more typical (ie less cavalry).

It is good to have some games anyway. I am really glad I had a few as otherwise it would be theoryhammer. What is more only by playing you can find out what really suits you. Make sure to let us know how did the game go! Who are you fighting against this time?

Curu Olannon wrote:
As for magic - I believe you should give High Magic a try! In my opinion, Life and Shadow require potent magic phases, provided by either BoS or Teclis. As you have neither, I would think that a cheap and useful lore such as High Magic would give you a lot more tactical flexibility. Basically throwing around cheap shields, flames and courage can be very, very useful! Add to that, vaul's can make up for some of your lack of elite infantry. Usually they're cut down by tough characters or monsters (if they get into combat), vaul's can help them against the killy lords around.

It is still a very hard choice. :) I need my archmage to protect my troops. In that case I am guaranteed to have 5+ ward save spell from High Magic or 5+ regeneration from Life (with option to have it for 4+ if I get the Throne). Life spells which I need the most, i.e. regeneration, flesh to stone and throne, are all relatively easy to cast. The advantage of Life also comes from the fact I can try to protect two units at the same time (one where the mage is and the other with higher toughness). Of course to have them all working I need more power dice. I have also noticed during my last game where I had Dwellers that my opponent kept his dispel dice to dispel that particular spell, letting others go. Hence, if I were to decide that I am staying with Life I might actually take Silver Wand. Just to keep the enemy guessing which spell I am going to cast and giving myself better chances at getting all the spells I want.

High Magic is very tempting. I just wish I could have that 5+ ward in 12" :D I need to think about it a little more :) As to Light I am a little put off by the high casting values of the spells when you want to cast them as area spells. I am not saying they are not worthy or too difficult to cast but they eat a lot of power dice :) And to make matters more complicated I started to think about Lore of Metal too :) Although not that seriously. I find a lot of lores very good for a level 2 mage accompanying the Archmage.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Normally I would advice against Reavers but I believe your playstyle might very well see them put to perfect use! I'm looking forward to seeing your results with them :)

Me too :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
As for the Swordmasters - did you consider White Lions instead? I would normally think survivability is key. I chose swordmasters over white lions for target saturation. At 2500 points I have 4 combat units: the swordmasters, spears with bsb, dpbus and helmbus with prince. I'm thinking that if I lose all of those I'm not going to win the game anyways, so the difference between swords and white lions are minimal. Add to that, I'm more concerned about hordes than tough nuts, so Swordmasters appear to be the better choice. I also have a Life archmage with a BoS in the army which helps out survivability tremendously.

No, I wanted Swordmasters in my army no matter what :) It is more due to the fact I like them very much (as you probably have guessed already :)) and I think they are great in right circumstances. They are very fragile so that is why I want Life or High magic to help them. The "problem" with white lions is that I included kind of barbaric element to my army. They are fantastic unit, ferocious and they fit aggressive approach as well as defensive play, very versatile. Who knows, maybe after a few games I will call for them again but for now I needed points to add fast elements to the army I and think after heavy duty they always had in my battles they need some well deserved rest :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
In your case however, there are only 3 real combat units. You have played with both swords and lions for your last games so I'm curious as to why you chose the swords ;)

I still see four :) As to Swordmasters one more thing is that from all our elites it seems majority of people take White Lions, then some take Phoenicx Guard and then, sometimes and only few of the players include Swordmasters. I wanted some relatively unique feel to that army and hopefully it is done by having them among the ranks.

Curu Olannon wrote:
EDIT: I notice we have the same BSB config but yours is 4 pts cheaper. Seems good ol' Olannon forgot his calculator at home when making his army list because you're clearly right sir - that loadout is indeed 168 points ;) I love the army composition and reasoning behind e.g. archers btw!

haha, great! I am glad I saved you 4 points :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
Just a crazy thought I had - did you ever consider not running Spearelves? I'm thinking - you're fond of shooting but your spears seem to do a lot of nothing. You could go for something like 60 archers in the core department (3x20 or something), ditch an rbt (or both!) and run a PG anvil for example.

Just a thought, but with your playstyle might just work!

My Spearelves feel insulted :) They had some good moments in my games :) Although I am sure their spectacular retreat with an Archmage against DE was something that stays in memory much better :)

As to your suggestion I am sorry but I think it would be actually against my approach. I like shooting but I treat as support. 60 archers, even without RBT's, would turn that army into shooty one. Adding very defensive block of Phoenix Guard only emphasizes that feeling in my opinion. It can work in general, but I am afraid that is not the path I would like to take. But thanks for the idea :)

krysith wrote:
I have also been reading your well-written and entertaining battle reports.

Thanks!

krysith wrote:
I agree with Milliado's assessment that your biggest tactical problem is that your cavalry does not move in straight lines towards its goal. In battles 1, 3, & 5, there were each times when I thought "ok, here he's going to charge" but instead your killer cav units (SH or DP) would move in a way that avoided combat. I couldn't figure out why, until I realized that you didn't want to commit your cav units to a frontal assault, but instead were looking for a way to charge into a combat where you held the advantage. I understand that Seredain makes it look so easy when he runs his SH unit all the way around back for a turn 5 rear charge on the general's unit! He may be able to give you some better tips on how to achieve that. But the biggest problem with your army has not been its composition, but the fact that you have a 400+ killer unit which killed like 60 pts in some of those battles. I'm only being critical about this in an attempt to help you get the best bang for your buck, so please don't take this negatively.

I never do, so no worries! :) Yes, I know I am always thinking about this flanking attack which not always can work and simply I waste my time. That is something I have yet to learn. In some cases it was easier to achieve when the enemy was not spread and actually it was worth doing as frontal charge was not the best option. What is more, with flanking attacks I could bring even more units to the fight. I also missed some opportunities for that powerful attacks and believe me, I would charge in if I haven't made some silly mistakes. The best example is game 1 against DE where I positioned the Knights not carefully enough and Black Guard escaped my trap. It is easy to fix some thought into your mind and simply use it no matter what but the Knights should be much more flexible :) So thanks for reminding me about it :)

krysith wrote:
Back to the army compositoin, I think you are right to get rid of the chariot. If you were to keep the chariot, you should learn to think of it as the rightmost or leftmost troops of your spearmen contingent. Chariots and spearmen are best friends, and should go into combat together. However, I don't think the chariot and spearmen are going to scare anyone.

Chariots have their uses but in order to overcome randomness of impact hits you need more of them. I saw O&G army with 3 Orc Chariots and 4 Wolf Chariots. And apparently the guy was using that chariot hammer with great success. I can imagine that a horde formation is an ideal target for them. In theory Spearelves and Chariot should work perfectly. And I am sure they do but at the moment I cannot use single chariot properly and I am want to test some other elements in the army. Maybe single Lion Chariot would be better due to its S5 and S6 attacks in addition to impact hits?

krysith wrote:
I would like to put in a good word for my currently favorite unit, the 30 archer horde. They don't break steadfast like spears do, but they do so much more... Just adding that amount of shooting changes the game, and they receive a charge almost as well as the same number of spears. Note that 30 archers (10x3) throw 21 attacks against a 5 wide charger, while 30 spears (5x6) throw 25... the big advantage of spears is the extra ranks.

And sometimes that extra armour :) I am sure you can use such a unit to a great effect but I don't think it would fit in my army. As I mentioned before shooting has a support role and as such I need it to be flexible. Big unit can be scary but if it is the only unit you have in the army then it can be easily avoided. Also, very often I need 10-12 arrows to achieve the effect I need while 30 would be an overkill. I can always focus all my shooting at one target but with single big unit I do not have that option. I know that your style is about shooting avoidance and you have more shooters in your army. Would you still take it as a single unit with missile weapons?

krysith wrote:
If you are looking for spare points, one option is to drop the prince to a noble. Give him GW and the potion of strength, and he has about as much hitting power for one turn while being much cheaper. How many rounds is the prince going to spend in combat anyways? It's not exactly a grinding unit.

No, it is not but I am not going to let the Prince go. Without him this is not the same army anymore. I was really looking for an option to include fighting Lord character and this one suits me perfectly. Saving points is always good but with a noble only this unit is not nearly as good as with the Prince. I need that Prince also because sometimes I may fight against something that cannot be killed in one round and that it will not run either. The problem is more with me, as you have noticed, that I do not send him to combat early enough so that the Prince does not what he is designed for :)

Marinero wrote:
1. I would replace the prince for a noble - barded steed, dragon armour, helm of fortune, guardian phoenix, GW - 165, he is survivable and killy, and you save 100+

Still not an option for me to consider as I have already explained :) Why would you do that though and what would you spend these extra points on?

Marinero wrote:
2. Light armour on archers is a waste, as way too many attacks would ignore it. It is better to buy more archers for the same points

I disagree. Many times I sent my Archers to a fight against S3 enemy and that 6+ save actually helped. One or two less casualties matter. And even if it is not going to make a much difference I like my 4ed metal archers too much not to field them without armour (saying they don't have it when clearly they do is invoking bad karma :D)

Marinero wrote:
3. AM - if you give him the FRobe, give him the talisman of Saphery

I wish I could. With the Prince around I do not have that many points to get him all the toys I want. :(

Marinero wrote:
4. Add the Banner of Sorcery!

I would like to. There are two ways of doing that: 1. give it to Dragon Princes instead of flaming attacks or 2. Upgrading Swordmasters. I still need to save some points to get it so I will see what can be done :)

Thanks for comments so far and keep them coming! :)

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Marinero wrote:
2. Light armour on archers is a waste, as way too many attacks would ignore it. It is better to buy more archers for the same points

I disagree. Many times I sent my Archers to a fight against S3 enemy and that 6+ save actually helped. One or two less casualties matter. And even if it is not going to make a much difference I like my 4ed metal archers too much not to field them without armour (saying they don't have it when clearly they do is invoking bad karma )


I have to agree with Marinero here. I don't think the light armour is the best choice. It's points that could be better spent elsewhere. You get ASF with the archers so if you add a couple more to the unit you'll get more shots and probably see the same results in terms of CC if you do charge them into a low str, small unit.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:51 am 
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John Rainbow wrote:
I have to agree with Marinero here. I don't think the light armour is the best choice. It's points that could be better spent elsewhere. You get ASF with the archers so if you add a couple more to the unit you'll get more shots and probably see the same results in terms of CC if you do charge them into a low str, small unit.

Then we just have to agree to disagree :) I guess we are all right as each of us have their own reasons. I am not going to strip my archers from their light armour they clearly have :)

Out of curiosity, however, a question. By leaving light armour at home you would save 24 points. How would you spend it? 2 additional Archers? Bear in mind that you still need to meet a minimum requirement for 600 points spent on core units in that army.

Cheers!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Yea this is nice and you have addressed the fragile AM pretty well but at the loss of some of the killy power of the Prince, there are a couple of cheap Mage/Knight builds floating around both at Lord and Prince levels, that would give you a backup mage at least for dispelling maybe even sniping stuff before the bus hits.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:38 pm 
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I suggested that you replace the prince with a noble, because in this way you will be able to better outfit your AM, and also have points to add the BoS


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:01 pm 
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First up, great thread! I really like the way you are developing Seredain's build your own way.

I tend to agree with you about the Prince. It's not that the Noble is a bad choice but the Prince (especially with Loec or Shard) gives that extra bit of killing power, especially against enemy characters or monsters. If you have to spend a lot of points to do so, I think it's worth it. I believe Seredain has demonstrated that his unit can fight over several rounds if it has to.

I use High Magic on my own AM but I feel that Life is probably better. I guess you have reservations though, maybe it's just a case of trying out all the options until you're happy with one? I think Metal is a good utility Lore but it needs power dice.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:51 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I know that your style is about shooting avoidance and you have more shooters in your army. Would you still take it as a single unit with missile weapons?


Actually, I don't play shooting avoidance much anymore, and instead play shooting anvil. I'm sorry that I haven't written a tactica for it yet.

Essentially, the idea is to just take all of your core as archers. This is 25% of your army in shooting, and more than enough to present a valid shooting threat. This threat makes most players move their army towards your archers. They're like a magnet. The purpose of the archers is not to destroy the enemy through shooting but rather to give you control of the game by making your opponent's moves predictable. The mere existence of the archers on the board does this, so it doesn't matter if you waste shots on overkilling support units - although the reliability of throwing 30 shots at a unit of skirmishers is rather nice.

The reason I suggested that you try archer hordes is because you seem to have trouble getting your prince's cavalry unit into a flank-charging position. The threat that archer hordes pose would mean that much of your opponent's army will move directly towards the archers, setting the cav up for a flank charge. This is what I do with my cavalry units - two big archer units are still only 25% of my points. I often run 10 SH and 5 DPs as hammers, although I just finished painting more DPs, so my hammer may swing a little harder soon.

Of course, if you feel that spears fit your style more, by all means go with them. But the reason I was suggesting archers was precisely because I thought they would fit your flanking cavalry style. I don't think archers are for everyone, but I think they are great for an army like yours. Your opponents currently easily see the flank attack coming and maneuver to negate it. You need something to give them an incentive not to do that.

I should note that I made a mistake in my comparison above: 30 high elf spearmen in 5x6 only have 20 attacks, not 25, and only 15 attacks when charging. Compare to 21 attacks for 30 archers in 3x10 versus a five wide opponent, whether charging or not.

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Tiralya wrote:
Yea this is nice and you have addressed the fragile AM pretty well but at the loss of some of the killy power of the Prince, there are a couple of cheap Mage/Knight builds floating around both at Lord and Prince levels, that would give you a backup mage at least for dispelling maybe even sniping stuff before the bus hits.

Who knows, maybe after a while I will try out a hero level mage knights as a help both to Archmage and whoever might need him. Have you used one before? What lores would you take for AM and Mage Knight then? The "problem" with HE army list and magic items is that there are so many interesting options but you cannot take them all. At least not for the 2400-2500 points or less :)

Marinero wrote:
I suggested that you replace the prince with a noble, because in this way you will be able to better outfit your AM, and also have points to add the BoS

That is a good advice but I am afraid I am going to keep the prince. I think that without him the Knights do not have that punch anymore. I see that you run two heroes in your army and I am sure they work great for you. In my case, however, I decided to have my BSB with Spearelves and in that case lone hero level Knight is not enough in my opinion. I did some changes to the list to include BoS so have a look below and tell me what do you think. I am not totally happy with the exchange but I guess that is the way it is. If you want something you have to let go something else :)

SpellArcher wrote:
First up, great thread! I really like the way you are developing Seredain's build your own way.

Thanks!

SpellArcher wrote:
I tend to agree with you about the Prince. It's not that the Noble is a bad choice but the Prince (especially with Loec or Shard) gives that extra bit of killing power, especially against enemy characters or monsters. If you have to spend a lot of points to do so, I think it's worth it. I believe Seredain has demonstrated that his unit can fight over several rounds if it has to.

Yes, that is my point too. Silver Helms can inflict some damage on their own and should not be underestimated but then without the Prince among them they do not have enough punch.

SpellArcher wrote:
I use High Magic on my own AM but I feel that Life is probably better. I guess you have reservations though, maybe it's just a case of trying out all the options until you're happy with one? I think Metal is a good utility Lore but it needs power dice.

I think I will have go at High Magic and see if I like it better. Life magic has this nice lore attribute and Throne is simply one of the best miscast insurance (not to mention that it boosts spells nicely). High Magic is a nice all round lore and I am simply curious how is it going to work under 8th edition. If I were to run Mage Knight I would then give him High Magic (Shield and Drain Magic) and keep Life on AM :)

krysith wrote:
Actually, I don't play shooting avoidance much anymore, and instead play shooting anvil. I'm sorry that I haven't written a tactica for it yet.

That is a pity as you have a very good insight and I read your shooting avoidance with a great interest. There are nice ideas in your posts which can be used in other armies too :) It would be great to read what you have to ay about shooting anvil!

krysith wrote:
Essentially, the idea is to just take all of your core as archers. This is 25% of your army in shooting, and more than enough to present a valid shooting threat. This threat makes most players move their army towards your archers. They're like a magnet. The purpose of the archers is not to destroy the enemy through shooting but rather to give you control of the game by making your opponent's moves predictable. The mere existence of the archers on the board does this, so it doesn't matter if you waste shots on overkilling support units - although the reliability of throwing 30 shots at a unit of skirmishers is rather nice.

I must admit you have some point in here. I have indeed noticed people target missile units and machines (if they can) as soon as possible and often make them their priorities no matter if they are worthy that much attention or not.

krysith wrote:
The reason I suggested that you try archer hordes is because you seem to have trouble getting your prince's cavalry unit into a flank-charging position. The threat that archer hordes pose would mean that much of your opponent's army will move directly towards the archers, setting the cav up for a flank charge. This is what I do with my cavalry units - two big archer units are still only 25% of my points. I often run 10 SH and 5 DPs as hammers, although I just finished painting more DPs, so my hammer may swing a little harder soon.

That is a very good suggestion. I wonder if I could force something like that with a proper archers and rbt's deployment. Are people not intimidated, however, by these 30 arrows coming their way, especially with light troops like many infantry units? In any case you are correct, missile units tend to draw enemy regiments towards them so I guess I need to use it properly. :)

krysith wrote:
Of course, if you feel that spears fit your style more, by all means go with them. But the reason I was suggesting archers was precisely because I thought they would fit your flanking cavalry style. I don't think archers are for everyone, but I think they are great for an army like yours. Your opponents currently easily see the flank attack coming and maneuver to negate it. You need something to give them an incentive not to do that.

That was also a reason why I was thinking (and initially trying) to use Lother Sea Guard. I really wih they have longbows as then I would think no more and take two big blocks of them. The problem is I sometimes need them urgently in tight formation or I am simply not patient enough to use them properly. I don't want to sit back with them and shoot. Did you try LSG in your shooting anvil approach? For a time being I do like my Spearelves :)

krysith wrote:
I should note that I made a mistake in my comparison above: 30 high elf spearmen in 5x6 only have 20 attacks, not 25, and only 15 attacks when charging. Compare to 21 attacks for 30 archers in 3x10 versus a five wide opponent, whether charging or not.

Not to mention stand and shoot :) Yes, that is quite interesting but I usually treat many Spearelves attacks as a nice bonus. Although I must say people seem to be afraid of them somehow.

Thanks for suggestions! I will definitely think about them :)

In the meantime another draft of my army list:

Prince - Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard - 286

Archmage - level 4, Folariath's Robe, High Magic - 305

BSB - Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone, Great Weapon - 168

30 Spearelves - Full Command, Standard of Discipline - 310

12 Archers - Light Armour, Musician - 149

12 Archers - Light Armour, Musician - 149

12 Swordmasters - Standard, Banner of Sorcery - 242

5 Dragon Princes - 150

9 Silver Helms - Shield, Musician, Standard - 231

5 Ellyrian Reavers - 105

2 x Repeater - 200

2 x Great Eagles - 100

Total: 2400

A few comments to the changes:

1. The Prince should be as deadly as ever now :)

2. Archmage is better protected but had to leave his scroll in the library.

3. In order to have Banner of Sorcery I had to get rid of Banner of Eternal Flame and give it to Swordmasters as their Standard Bearer is cheaper. What is more, under ETC rules Banner can generate no more than 2 Power Dice.

I haven't scheduled any battles yet so there is time to discuss :)

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:06 pm 
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I wouldn't use BoS with High Magic. I'm also fairly sure that Helm of Fortune is better than GP in 95% of the cases where you need protection. 1+ re-roll trumps 2+/5++. I also don't believe in archmage armour. Give him the scroll instead. With the points left from the BoS buy some plain swordmasters. Between this, you should be able to get them to 16 and field them 2x8 - a perfect unit size in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:32 pm 
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That is funny, I have no idea why I put Guardian Phoenix not even considering it for the Prince. Corrected the list :)

As to other comments let me think about them :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:43 am 
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I haven't had an opportunity to use one but I've seen first hand how useful they can be, one time he was using Death, the signature spell killing off characters and such before the bus hits so there are no challenges or such, and the other beasts, the sig spell increasing the bus's strength and toughness which was very handy. having a backup mage for dispelling can be a game breaker.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:39 am 
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Greetings!

As I have mentioned in the updated first post of this topic I finally have an opportunity to continue with a topic on my Army List evolution. It all started with Seredain's list and I hoped I will be able to have my own approach based on his inspiration. In the meantime, reading different topics and playing a few more games, I started to use other ideas too. I got rid of RBT's and introduced 2 level mage. I tried some combinations of magic lores. I included light cavalry and I am still learing how to use them but I believe I am getting better and they definitely had their moments. Finally, I tried different types of equipment for the Prince and this task might still not be finished. :) So let me present my most recent army list I used against Ogres and share some experience I got with particular units.

Prince - Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragon Helm, Vembrances of Defence, Foe Bane

I borrowed this build from Siegfried VII (with an exception of Talisman of Loec) and at the moment it competes with the build jwg20 uses although still on barded steed. I really want to include Prince in my army and I believe he can be a very useful addition despite costing a lot of points. I want him to be able to kill things my units would struggle to wound. I also want him to be as well protected as possible to fight against the toughest and meanest things and survive. To my great disappointment I many times failed "Look out, Sir!" roll and that is also a rason to give him ward save. I think this particular build is very good against tough enemies with 5+ save at best. It means Sphinxes and some monsters. He will often need some help from heavy cavalry but they are going to accompany him more often than not. However, his defensive equipment means I can run him solo and reach the target.

Archmage - level 4, Light Magic, Folariath's Robe, Annulian Crystal
Mage - level 2, Light Magic, Ring of Fury

With Banner of Sorcery I believe I now have a very potent magic phase. Light Magic is versatile lore and I can use it at any stage of the game. It has magic missiles with long range (so I could try and stay away from some dangers) and very nice spells, which can aid units in various ways. At the moment my favourite combination is Pha's Protection with Speed of Light where WS4 units need 6's to hit our troops while even elites might not be lucky to get many hits on 5+. I also think it has a nice characteristic touch as High Elves are the army of the Light and also they should be difficult to hit in general. And what cannot hit you - will not wound you. :) This is also a reason for Folariath's Robe as with this item my Archmage is safe from hits of warmachines and usual mage hunters cannot harm him. Annulian Crystal and Ring of Fury add nicely to defensive and ofensive abilities, respectively.

BSB - great weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone
Spearelves - 30, Full Command, Standard of Discipline

In some of my previous games I lost spears and a character with them due to unlucky rolls. Hence BSB and Standard of Discipline. With that combination I have as good chances to keep fighting as possible. BSB does not have to be with Spearelves all the time but usually starts the battle with them and his duty is to keep the infantry together. He is really second in command and I really like this particular set up as I can be more aggressive with Spearelves and keep up with faster heavy cavalry. They are also the only unit in the army with many ranks so it is important they support other combat units in breaking steadfast of the enemy. Despite the fact they are not rated much by many players they have never let me down. What is also important for me is the fact that their lack of missile weapons does not create confusion. WIth LSG and Archers horde I often stayed in one place to be able to shoot when it might have been better to march towards the enemy. With Spears I know exactly what I want to do and have no second thoughts. :)

Archers - 2 x 13, Light Armour, Musician

I tried them in horde formation and I liked them in that role but I have also found myself with too few units in general and support regiments in particular. Hence I decided to come back to 2 smaller units and they perform very well. I included Light Armour because I use the models which have it but on many occasions that actually proved to be valuable addition. There are many S3 units out there your Archers might find fighting against and I have never regreted paying a little extra. And they definitely look much better than plastic archers :)


Silver Helms - 9, Full Command
Dragon Princes - 5, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame

Heavy Cavalry Hammer. Both units are very good. In the battles I played Silver Helms were as useful as Dragon princes. The only real disadvantage I see is the lack of magical banner and sometimes magical item for the chapion, as they are often the main target for enemy fire. I also like the speed cavalry adds to the game and their Swiftstride means that usually they charge what they intend to attack even with some less than average roll. Combination of Prince and his bodyguard is powerful enough to inflict a lot of damage and defeat the enemy. I also like the pressure they put on the enemy forces and when working together with infantry they are very good indeed.

Swordmasters - 14, Bladelord, Standard, Banner of Sorcery

The unit my enemies fear the most. Always. They might die in combat but if they enter it and at full strength then there will be blood. They are quite expensive in that set up but I had no other unit to give the Banner. They are usually in team with Spearelves as it seems the most natural to combine ranked unit with and excellent regiment in close combat. If I have the opportunity I charge them both against single enemy. They need protection so careful deployment and some luck in magic are reuired. :)

Ellyrian Reavers - 6, Musician, Bows, Spears
Great Eagle - 1

Light and fast troops. Very useful for harassment and diverting. I would love to include 2 x 5 ER and 2 x GE in the army so I might merge heavy cavalry in one unit to do so. ER are not that straightforward to use but are great fun and even more so if they do well. If I only can make them pass that rally test when they intentionally flee from the enemy it would be great :) I also liek to give them bows and although they are not that efficient as Dark Riders they can still be annoying enough.

I think I will play 2500 points at the moment but might try to scale it down back to 2400 although I will face some hard choices then. At the moment the main consideration is about including second unit of ER and merging heavy cavalry into single unit of DP.

Please, feel free to comment on any aspect of the army list.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:38 pm 
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Interesting developments Swordmaster!

Couple of questions, firstly, why the Ring of Fury when you already have two MM's from Light? Secondly, are those MM's compensating you for the loss of the RBT's?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:19 am 
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Hi SpellArcher!

1. Ring of Fury - I found it is a very useful item and some kind of enforcer. With two magic missiles I still might not be able to get them through. From my experience so far my opponent often lets me cast Pha's Protection and then dispels any attempts of Burning Gaze or Banishment. With the ring I always have a chance to get one magic missile through and sometimes the reverse can be obtained as well. If I need to cast some other spells the ring draws dispel dice. If I risk and cast it with single dice, my opponent has to use 2, otherwise he also risks losing concentration for his mage. Last but not least, if the winds of magic are low it is also handy to have a ring which is easier to use than banishment.

2. RBT's - my main idea was to make the army more mobile. I found out I often try to protect war machines when I should focus on developing my own attack. I prefer to be in a constant move (which sometimes looks like I am lacking patience :)). So using Light Magic was not to compensate for the lack of ranged weapons. However, having spells which are magic missiles and ring of fury serves often the same purpose as RBT's. I need to get rid of some units before the attack or make them weaker. It also gives me flexibility in putting pressure on the opponent with spells I can cast at any stage of the game. But if you look at the aspect of magic which serves a similar purpose as RBT's would I say yes, they are very good at it. I also have a feeling Light magic is better when at least two casters have it. Not only your Banishment becomes much more dangerous with S5 but then you have 6 spells out of 7, which gives you a very nice choice and there is always something you can do in your magic phase.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:44 am 
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Ok, so I guess with the Ring you make it very hard for your opponent to shut down the MM's completely.

You see this a lot in DE lists don't you, where the desire to keep mobile (and of course the excellent RXB) means they rarely take RBT's. Certainly it seemed to me in your Ogre report that when you needed to take out those Mournfangs you had the MM's to hand where another list might have relied on RBT for the same job.

It's always interesting the choice between getting pretty much the whole of a Lore and the alternative access to two Lores. Clearly you feel that Light repays investment in it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:53 am 
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Hey mate. I read your list and I have some changes that I suggest you give a try.

First of all magic. The Folariath's Robe is not so good as there are many units with magical attacks but also the fact that your mage won't see combat if you play correctly. Think. How many times did your mage get into combat? And in those times did the robe make a difference or the mag was lost along with the rest of the unit?

Then Ring of Fury. It is indeed a very good item, but since you can already have many magic missiles it is not that much needed.

I made the lv2 mage lv1 and added another lv1. What you gain. 1 more channeling making for a total number of three (giving you a 50% chance of getting an extra dice. The main effect though is the Banishment that now boasts 2d6 strength 6 hits maikng it a small Gateway. With this boosted version you can remove even chaos warriors by the lot but also damage monsters and all toughness 4 opponents. Try it and I'm sure you'll reap the benefits on several battles.

Now to units. I changed the archers and removed the light armour to add 2 models in total. Imo it is better to have two more wounds and two more bows. Of course it is not a drastic change, so it is more a matter of preference.

The flaming Dragon Princes unit is nice but the banner costs and is usefull only against a few opponents. On top of that there is much flaming immunity going around so you may end up with a disadvantage. If you want it for monsters you have your Prince to deal with them.

I also removed an Ellyrian Reaver to gain a few more points.

What I added: Musician on the Sword Masters (much needed in all units imo), an extra eagle (1 equal none), talisman of loec on the Prince (to aid him on his quest), pidgeon plucker pendant on the archmage (there were a few points to spare and this can save lives against suicide harpies, furies, eagles etc) and an ironcurse iron on him to protect his unit (and him) from warmachines.

You may keep anything (or nothing) from the suggestions I made but if you give them a try I'm sure that some of them at least you will find useful. Anyway here is the list as I changed it so you can have better visual take on it...

Quote:
x1 Prince
General, Foe Bane, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm,
Vambraces of Defence, Talisman of Loec, Barded Elven Steed.

x1 Archmage
Magic Level 4, Lore of Light, Annulian Crystal,
Pidgeon Plucker Pendant, Ironcurse Icon.

x1 Mage
Magic Level 1, Lore of Light.

x1 Mage
Magic Level 1, Lore of Light.

x1 Noble
BsB, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dawn Stone.

x30 First SpearElves
Standard Bearer, Musician, Sentinel, Standard of Discipline.

x14 Archers
Musician.

x14 Archers
Musician.

x14 Sword Masters of Hoeth
Standard Bearer, Musician, Bladelord, Banner of Sorcery.

x9 Silver Helms
Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician, High Helm.

x5 Dragon Princes
Musician.

x5 Ellyrian Reavers
Bows, Musician.

x1 Great Eagle

x1 Great Eagle


Models in Army: 98
Total Army Cost: 2498


Cheers, Sieg. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:19 pm 
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I like the circle of light and all and lvl1s can make the circle work, but I really don't like Mages without arcane items, we have such a good collection to choose from. Perhaps drop some champions or something...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:42 pm 
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Tiralya wrote:
I like the circle of light and all and lvl1s can make the circle work, but I really don't like Mages without arcane items, we have such a good collection to choose from. Perhaps drop some champions or something...


True, with a few tweaks at least one or two arcane items may be added.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:35 pm 
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Thanks for more comments! Good to see my humble attempts at creating my own approach to HE gets some interest :)

SpellArcher wrote:
Ok, so I guess with the Ring you make it very hard for your opponent to shut down the MM's completely.

That was indeed the case. With good rolls for Banner of Sorcery and Channeling I definitely had enough power dice to make some difficult choices for him.

SpellArcher wrote:
You see this a lot in DE lists don't you, where the desire to keep mobile (and of course the excellent RXB) means they rarely take RBT's. Certainly it seemed to me in your Ogre report that when you needed to take out those Mournfangs you had the MM's to hand where another list might have relied on RBT for the same job.

I guess it is all about personal preferences. RBT's are still very good and I rate them high. What they give you is some kind of safety bet that if you keep them alive they should perform steadily over the course of battle. It is more difficult to do so with wizards as they are not only casting magic missiles. But this is what I like the best, the fact that the list is versatile and everybody can tailor his army to his particular needs or preferences.

SpellArcher wrote:
It's always interesting the choice between getting pretty much the whole of a Lore and the alternative access to two Lores. Clearly you feel that Light repays investment in it.

I definitely like that set up and I am going to play with it a little. I also have a feeling that Light is a little underrated in comparison to very popular and seemingly straightforward Life or Shadow. I tried Life before and I have found out it does not support this particualr army the way I want to. Or better still, that I cannot make it work for me :) I feel much better with Light and the option for area spells is a huge advantage in my opinion. But to make it even more effective I need almost all spells from that lore. Not to cast them all in one turn but to remain flexible all the time.

Siegfried VII wrote:
Hey mate. I read your list and I have some changes that I suggest you give a try.

Thanks! This is what I need as well :) Although as you will see I do not agree with all ideas because of various reasons ;)

Siegfried VII wrote:
First of all magic. The Folariath's Robe is not so good as there are many units with magical attacks but also the fact that your mage won't see combat if you play correctly. Think. How many times did your mage get into combat? And in those times did the robe make a difference or the mag was lost along with the rest of the unit?

Well, in my games so far only characters used to have magical attacks and then not always. I actually like him being in combat with rank-and-file as he is quite safe there. And since he is usually in Spearelves regiment they are not running away that often. I lost him (and Spears) due to some unlucky panic test or due to some shooting when I didn't have that Robe to protect him. Of course if I were to face Daemons or Wraiths (what other units have magical attacks apart from some WE or Grail Knights?) I should prevent the situation when he is in combat. Other than that I like the protection it gives him and even in the recent battle I managed to trick my opponent by accepting the challenge of his BSB knowing already he has only mundane weapon. So I disagree here and he likes his new, silky and fashionable robe too. :)

Siegfried VII wrote:
Then Ring of Fury. It is indeed a very good item, but since you can already have many magic missiles it is not that much needed.

Yes and no :) If I were to keep the set up I have I would still need it as in the last game my opponent, despite significant difference between number of my power dice vs. his dispel dice, usually managed to dispel both magic missiles. On the other hand, if I were to scale down the army back to 2400 I would probably get rid of this item first.

Siegfried VII wrote:
I made the lv2 mage lv1 and added another lv1. What you gain. 1 more channeling making for a total number of three (giving you a 50% chance of getting an extra dice. The main effect though is the Banishment that now boasts 2d6 strength 6 hits maikng it a small Gateway. With this boosted version you can remove even chaos warriors by the lot but also damage monsters and all toughness 4 opponents. Try it and I'm sure you'll reap the benefits on several battles.

This actually quite interesting idea. I thought about 3rd mage but automatically assumed level 2 with toys and that is expensive. Sure, as Tiralya mentioned, it is a little waste not to take some magic trinkets with them so I will have to consider it carefully how to equip them if I decided to take them. My main concern at the moment is that in roder to have banishment working I have to keep them in 12" from each other and that might not be the case sometimes. Especially when I do not have that many units to hide them (and which often want to fight as soon as possible). But this is something to figure out how to play. Thanks! I will definitely consider it. :)

Siegfried VII wrote:
Now to units. I changed the archers and removed the light armour to add 2 models in total. Imo it is better to have two more wounds and two more bows. Of course it is not a drastic change, so it is more a matter of preference.

I understand the merit of that but again, no. :) The reason is more due to the way the miniatures look. They do have light armour and I want to keep it this way. These old 5th edition (or is it 4th edition?) metal miniatures are one of the best in the whole range and I simply cannot strip that armour off :) Besides in a few situations it actually mattered :)

Siegfried VII wrote:
The flaming Dragon Princes unit is nice but the banner costs and is usefull only against a few opponents. On top of that there is much flaming immunity going around so you may end up with a disadvantage. If you want it for monsters you have your Prince to deal with them.

If I have both, DP and Prince to deal with monsters I can do that independantly. It is kind of redundancy. It does cost 30 extra points but I think these are points well spent. I agree there are immune to flame characters (any particualr unit?) but there are also many units/monsters/characters who benefit from regeneration and that is valuable addition. Even the Prince will have a problem with Hydra or Abomination if your opponent will keep rolling these 4+ saves and that is not unlikely. :) I would consider another banner if the unit was bigger, like Silver Helms, and only heavy cavalry in the army. However, if I see that I need points I might look here to get them.

Siegfried VII wrote:
I also removed an Ellyrian Reaver to gain a few more points.

Yes, I was thinking about it as well to get some extra points for other things. :)

Siegfried VII wrote:
What I added: Musician on the Sword Masters (much needed in all units imo), an extra eagle (1 equal none), talisman of loec on the Prince (to aid him on his quest), pidgeon plucker pendant on the archmage (there were a few points to spare and this can save lives against suicide harpies, furies, eagles etc) and an ironcurse iron on him to protect his unit (and him) from warmachines.

I dropped musician on Swordmasters simply because I was above 2500 points. I would add him for sure if I find points somwhere else but it was a decision juest before the battle to make it quicker. Extra eagle is always handy. Yes, I wanted to add Talisman too but then with Archmage I was abover 625 points so I had to make a decision what to lose. Other 2 items are very nice too but I would rahter give them to unit champions or indeed if I had some extra points allowance. All good considerations. :)

Siegfried VII wrote:
You may keep anything (or nothing) from the suggestions I made but if you give them a try I'm sure that some of them at least you will find useful. Anyway here is the list as I changed it so you can have better visual take on it...

Thanks! I do appreciate the input you all gave. I have some other ideas as well so we will see what am I going to choose for tomorrows battle. :)

In the meantime, what do you think about making DP one big bodyguard unit for the Prince and add 5 more ER for even greater mobility?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Siegfried VII wrote:
You may keep anything (or nothing) from the suggestions I made but if you give them a try I'm sure that some of them at least you will find useful. Anyway here is the list as I changed it so you can have better visual take on it...

Thanks! I do appreciate the input you all gave. I have some other ideas as well so we will see what am I going to choose for tomorrows battle. :)

In the meantime, what do you think about making DP one big bodyguard unit for the Prince and add 5 more ER for even greater mobility?


Well personally I only liked Silver Helms in 6th edition, so for me Dragon Princes are always a better choice. Plus they can take magic banner and the champion can take magic items.

Good Banners are Razor Standard, War Banner or Banner of Swiftness.

For the Champion good choices are The Other Trickster's Shard, Amulet of Light, Gem of Courage or Ironcurse Iron.

Regarding the Ellyrian Reavers I would prefer you put 2 eagles instead of the second unit but I can see that a pair of units is more symmetrical (yes I have a little Monk in me :D ).

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:49 pm 
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Greetings!

The last battle didn't bring much insight into the way the army plays. I made some little changes and actually used the suggestion to field 3 wizards. The army list was as follows:

Prince - Heavy Armour, barded Steed, Shield, Dragon Helm, Foe Bane, Vembrances and Talisman of Loec
Archmage - level 4, Folariath's Robe, Staff of Solidity - Lore of Light

BSB, GW, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone
Mage - level 1, Annulian Crystal - Lore of Light
Mage - level 1, Jewel of the Dusk - Lore of Light

30 Spears, FC, Standard of Discipline
13 Archers, Light Armour, M
13 Archers, Light Armour, M

13 Swordmasters, FC, Banner of Sorcery
5 Ellyrian Reavers, bows, spears
5 Dragon princes, Musician
9 Silver Helms, FC

Great Eagle

Despite the fact that the game was very short I still have a few comments:

1. Cavalry is very useful - their speed is a great asset and helps me to be more aggressive.

2. Prince struggles against well armoured foes but at least he can deflect a lot of hits and by denying wounds to the enemy he still is useful (I challenged his Mournfang champion)

3. It is a very interesting experience to be able to cast Banishment with S6 :) Although because of that I was confused at what to take as a target. I could cast it at Mournfangs, Scraplauncher and Thundertusk. Which one would you choose and why?

4. Channeling with 3 mages is a very useful. I also added Jewel of the Dusk so I can generate a lot of dice no matter what the winds of magic are. It seems my opponent is really afraid of my magic phase as he took Death to snipe out my wizards.

5. Did I mention I like Light Magic a lot? :) Every time I manage to cast Pha's Protection my opponent chose to shoot at other target than intended just to be sure he can shoot at something.

As to the idea 5 DP + 9 SH, versus 5 ER + 9 DP I am still thinking hard. At the moment I have 4 support units and 4 combat units, as small unit of DP can also hit hard. Then 9DP can hit even harder and with 5 support unit I might create enough diversion for 3 hitters to create local superiority to efficiently break the enemy. It also seems that if I were to make the change then 5 Ellyrians with bows and spears (no musician) would leave room for 9 DP with Musician and Standard only, so no magical toys. Any thoughts?

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:29 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
3. It is a very interesting experience to be able to cast Banishment with S6 :) Although because of that I was confused at what to take as a target. I could cast it at Mournfangs, Scraplauncher and Thundertusk. Which one would you choose and why?

First I would target the Scraplauncher because it can hurt your Sword Masters greatly but also your cavalry (since it has killing blow). Then I would Target either of the other two depending on their position on the battlefield.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
4. Channeling with 3 mages is a very useful. I also added Jewel of the Dusk so I can generate a lot of dice no matter what the winds of magic are. It seems my opponent is really afraid of my magic phase as he took Death to snipe out my wizards.

As I said channeling with 3 dice nets you a 50% chance to get a dice. The Jewel of Dusk is not that great on a level 1 mage because only he will be able to use it. Perhaps a dispel scroll would serve you better?

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
5. Did I mention I like Light Magic a lot? :) Every time I manage to cast Pha's Protection my opponent chose to shoot at other target than intended just to be sure he can shoot at something.

The boosted version is also brilliant, especially against gunlines.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
As to the idea 5 DP + 9 SH, versus 5 ER + 9 DP I am still thinking hard. At the moment I have 4 support units and 4 combat units, as small unit of DP can also hit hard. Then 9DP can hit even harder and with 5 support unit I might create enough diversion for 3 hitters to create local superiority to efficiently break the enemy. It also seems that if I were to make the change then 5 Ellyrians with bows and spears (no musician) would leave room for 9 DP with Musician and Standard only, so no magical toys. Any thoughts?

I would use two units of Ellyrian Reavers only with spears and a musician and that would grant me more points to spend on magic toys for the Princes.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:04 am 
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Thanks for more comments Siegfried!

Siegfried VII wrote:
First I would target the Scraplauncher because it can hurt your Sword Masters greatly but also your cavalry (since it has killing blow). Then I would Target either of the other two depending on their position on the battlefield.

This is indeed what I did last game. My reasoning was that with average roll of 7 hits I had a good chance even to kill it outright. I already knew I have Pha's Protection as an area spell and it can make it his shooting less efficient. However, it could inflict some panic tests in nearby units if it worked. Unfortunately I got only 2 wounds in the end (out of 5 hits).

The decision what to target is difficult because:

1. Mournfangs are wounded on 2+ and even one less in a unit of 3-4 is a significant loss. They would still have a save of 5+ though.
2. Thundertusk has to be dealt quickly with. I wanted to charge it with my cavalry and use Talisman of Loec to be sure I can inflict 4 wounds (I would still have re-rolls to hit and then to wound and his armour saves just in case). If I could inflict some wounds before that I don't have to rely on cavalry to finish it off on the charge. However, with very broad frontage I think I can add 10 more attacks from Silver Helms and even without re-rolls to hit I should be able to inflict two remaining wounds.

At the moment I am leaning more towards targeting Mournfangs :)

Siegfried VII wrote:
As I said channeling with 3 dice nets you a 50% chance to get a dice. The Jewel of Dusk is not that great on a level 1 mage because only he will be able to use it. Perhaps a dispel scroll would serve you better?

Hm, maybe you are correct and this would be a better thing to do, especially that I will need to protect my archmage from being a victim of Death Lore spells. I will reconsider my choices.

Siegfried VII wrote:
The boosted version is also brilliant, especially against gunlines.

I actually always use the area spell version. It is cast on 12+ so I have a reasonable chance to cast it even with 2 dice only. I am not sure if it is just the case of that particular opponent but he lets it go through early in the game if I cast it as a first spell and focuses on dispelling magic missiles more. While later in the battle I cast banishment and burning gaze first and then follow with pha's protection and speed of light as these spells aid me better in the combat.

Siegfried VII wrote:
I would use two units of Ellyrian Reavers only with spears and a musician and that would grant me more points to spend on magic toys for the Princes.

That is of course true. I usually consider bows as a nice addition and I don't like to get rid of them as they are what models have anyway. Which option would benefit the army better then (with or without bows)?

1. 9 SH as a bodyguard for a Prince + 5 DP + 5 ER
2. 9 DP as a bodyguard for a Prince + 2 x 5 ER
3. 9 DP as a bodyguard for a Prince + 10 ER

10 ER is actually an idea I read somewhere here as well. They are still fast cavalry but now have a better hitting power and can be used as a good flanking force.

And if you are to choose 2 or 3, what would be your favourite equipment?

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Have you considered Radiant Gem for the third Light mage Swordmaster?

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=36381

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