Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:11 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1695 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 57  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 86
Still eageraly awaiting Seredain. :cry:

Polle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:29 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Haha, am I late?

Battle Report - High Elves vs Lizardmen

So, I played an important game on Saturday against Lizardmen. I say important because this army is looking like my chief opponent in the upcoming campaign (latest entries, further to the ones I've described above, include a Brettonian army and another High Elf player fielding, I am told, 50 Seaguard with a Banner of the World Dragon BSB). I'll make a note of the lessons learned after the report.

The Lists

High Elves

-Seredain-
Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Plucker Pendant, Talisman of Loec - 286

-Lecalion-
Lvl 4 Archmage - Lore of Life, Dispel Scroll - 280

-Caradath-
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190

35 Spearelves- Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 345
13 Archers, Musician - 148 (Archmage here)
12 Archers - 132

14 Swordmasters- Bladelord - 222
12 White Lions- Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 220
8 Silver Helms- Musician, Shields - 192 (Prince and BSB here)
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 200
1 Eagle - 50

Lizardmen

Slann - Becalming Cognition, Knows all spells, Focus (free power dice with each spell cast), Lore of Life
Skink Priest - Lvl 2, Engine of the Gods, Lore of Heavens
Scar Veteran - Sword of Strife, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon

23 Saurus Spears - Full Command (BSB here, 6x4)
18 Saurus, Hand Weapons+Shields - Full Command
10 Skink skirmishers - Blowpipes
10 Skink skirmishers - Blowpipes
10 Skink skirmishers - Blowpipes

16 Temple Guard - Full Command
Skink Cohort - 2 Kroxigors
4 Terradons
Salamander x 1
Salamander x 1
8 Chameleon Skinks

Deployment and The Plan

Image

I haven't made any more maps (I don't know how to use that battle chronicler program and Paint takes ages), but I've indicated with arrows the general movement my attacking units end up making. Apologies again for the lack of pictures (with fully painted armies and great terrain the board looked brilliant): I'll get my sh*t together soon and charge the camera for next time.

A word on the house rules we set. Since we had an 8' by 4' table, we decided to use the whole length of it but decided that our armies weren't allowed to deploy closer than 12" to either side. This way we had the full deployment width of a normal 6' by 4' board but without the artificial break in the models' world which allows cheesy castling.

Lizardman lost the roll-off to decide who deploys first, so I made him start (he had 11 drops, I had 10, so I'd still get the +1 for the first turn). It was clear from the off that the Slann was going to be deployed in the centre of his infantry line, so the only question was over where he was going to put his big spear block. He deployed them left and, actually, fairly early on, so that gave me plenty of time to set-up a weighted right flank with my elites and cavalry, anchored by the spearelves. The presence of a salamander on my right flank led me to place my dragon princes there too so I could quickly run down the lizard before it started burning away my silver helms. This meant that I was dominant on the right but, on my left, the 12 archers and the repeaters up on the hill were left exposed to a whole array of terradons, skinks and saurus infantry.

The battle would be decided over whether I could smash the Lizardmen's left flank and crush their centre before the Slann pulled my army apart and the powerful saurus spears entered the fray with their Veteran leader. Prince Seredain and his knights would focus on running down the hand-weapon saurus before he chopped into the stegadon. The Helms and Dragon Princes would then, together, surround and charge the Slann's Temple Guard with Caradath and (if he was done) the prince, while I engaged them to the front with the swordmasters or white lions. The spears would hold the swordmasters' left flank for as long as possible while the rest of my army went to work.

My High Elves won the roll for the first turn.

Spells

Lecalion rolled Dwellers Below, Awakening, Shield of Thorns and Throne of Vines (the latter thanks to a double 1).
The Slann got all the Life spells and the skink priest got Iceshard Blizzard and (annoyingly), Chain Lightning.

So, he had the big damage spells from both his lores and I had no way of toughening or repairing my troops. My Prince would have to move quickly.

High Elf Turn 1

The elven cavalry took the initiative and surged into the plain on the right flank- dragon princes at the front and on the outside with the silver helms further back and to their left, keeping a little back from the salamander opposite. The princes were close already and would be within easy reach of the beast next turn. The white lions marched up to the wood, angling left to cover any advance from the HW saurus and the skink/krox cohort. The swordmasters stood their ground to ensure there was more than 6" between them and the lions. This way chain lightning couldn't ravage both my elite units in the same turn. The eagle moved up in front of the lions, ready for a Turn 2 charge on the engine to slow it down and, hopefully, prevent the priest ravaging my lines with lightning.

Magic Started well with an irresistible casting of Throne of Vines but, after that, the Lizards easily had enough dispel dice to deal with my remaining casts. With throne up, however, the Slann would either have to expend power dice dispelling it in his magic phase or allow Lecalion a bonanza of aggressive casting on Turn 2.

The left-hand archers focused on the hard-to-hit chameleons and picked off 4 of them, to much mutual congratulation, but the little creatures passed their panic test. Lecalion's archers pinged off a few skinks from the cohort and the repeaters, on good form to hit the central salamander with 5 bolts, only wounded two handlers, with one wound on the salamander itself.

Lizardman Turn 1

Advances all across the board. The terradons, who had dived behind the wood with their vanguard move, flew into the open on my left flank. Both skink units on my left marched forward, alongside the saurus spears and then the temple guard. The hand-weapon saurus moved at a slightly slower pace and angled slighty to allow the ancient stegadon to rumble between them and the temple guard. Both salamanders moved up and the chameleons closed on the archers in readiness for a volley.

My opponent rolled a generous 10 power dice for the magic phase but, fortunately, was too far away to Dwellers any of my units. Less fortunately, he had plenty to put buffs up on his spears and temple guard (he was afraid of my repeaters). First, though, he established Throne of Vines on the Slann. Lecalion leapt into action and failed his first effort to dispel on three dice. Even after all the buffs, what with the Slann's annoying +1 power dice to all casts, the skink priest still had plenty of dice to chuck into Chain Lightening, but it only fried a paltry one white lion.

Lizardman shooting saw the central salamander flame and wound the eagle (damn). The flank salamander had a punt at burning the dragon princes, but he overshot. So, he blinked nervously and waited for all those lances to smash into his face...

High Elf Turn 2

...only they didn't. Instead, the princes' horses had some kind of aneurysm and stumbled forward a paltry 2". So, my princes would now be at least a turn late for their rendezvous with the temple guard and my silver helms were left exposed to the alive (and gleeful) salamander. Seredain and his helms weren't going to be held back any longer, however- the army needed them to get into combat- so caution was thrown to the wind and they marched up to within charge-distance of the HW saurus' flank, just outside the range of the sinister statue. The rest of my army stayed put and awaited the Lizardman advance excepting the chariot, which moved alongside the white lions, and the eagle, which I'd charged into the stegadon having completely forgotten that he'd already suffered a wound and now had absolutely no chance of staying alive long enough to do anything useful.

Magic was pretty underpowered (6 dice to me, 4 to my opponent), so to get a good result out of it I chucked all 6 at a long-range Dwellers against the only suitable target in range- the cohort. Things went nicely to plan, the ground erupted and most of the skinks and one kroxigor were dragged down. Excellent. Except things hadn't actually gone that well and Lecalion had rolled a 1 on his Throne of Vines anti-miscast roll. Ugh. A few seconds later and he'd forgotton Dwellers, lost a level and had 4 dead archers scattered about him. Further the archmage wasn't able to cast any other spells that turn, so he contented himself by dispelling the Slann's Throne.

Shooting. The left-hand archers brought down a terradon and Lecalion's archers had a crack at the central salamander but couldn't wound it with the arrows that hit home- two 5's and a 6 were rolled for its armour save (ugh). The repeaters targeted the distant salamander in an attempt to protect the helms, but four hits only resulted in two dead handlers.

Lizardman Turn 2

The Lizardman commander was starting to realise now that my prince was going to be bad business for his steg (which had found himself on the sharp end of the Giant Blade before). More than that, however, he was worried about what my repeaters would do to his spears as they marched past the bane stone. So, as the lizard infantry advanced (temple guard up to the fence, saurus spears around the bane stone), the stegadon swung round and marched between the temple guard and the spears in order to throw its shield up over these valuable units (5+ ward against missiles). What he apparently hadn't realised, however, was that my silver helm tank was set to do a number on his HW saurus - the only thing now blocking my knights from the centre of his force. These saurus simply pivoted to face the threat and hoped for the best. The skink cohort, melting fast, thundered forward to try and hold up my units there until the temple guard and spears could close in. Meanwhile, on my left, all the skinks and terradons swarmed forward at full pace, meaning to overwhelm my archers, take out my machines and then get to work eroding my spear block on the far side of the hill. The good news was that the terradons couldn't simply race in and drop rocks, since I'd deployed in such a way with the archers, repeaters and spears that they had nowhere to land. They'd have to wait until the skinks cleared away my archers.

Shooting, and a worrying time for me. The chameleons let fly and brought down 3 of the left-hand archers, who stoically passed their panic test. But it was all about the salamander facing my knights. He spat out, hit both characters and 3 helms and... nothing. Fate was on my side with failed wounds on two helms and a successful armour save on the third, while the characters shrugged off the fire with ease and breathed a sigh of relief for their companions.

Magic was about as uneventful as possible. Not many power dice were rolled and the Slann tried to get Throne of Vines up again but failed to cast. Ahahahahaha! The skink priest was able to muster up the power to get chain lightning off, but Lecalion had recovered enough focus by then to sweep it away.

High Elf Turn 3

Elven war horns blared across the field as the greater part of the army thundered into combat. The silver helms charged the waiting HW saurus and the dragon princes charged their salamander. The swordmasters, chariot and white lions (in the flank), all charged the lizard cohort. The swordmaster charge failed so they only ran forward 4", but the lions and chariot both smashed home and, by aligning on the flank, the lions also hit the skink skirmishers stood directly behind the cohort. On the far left, the archers had decided to force the issue and charged the chameleons who fled, were caught and, brilliantly, caused the terradons to flee in panic.

Magic, and there was nothing doing. Shield of Thorns was dispelled and Awakening wasn't in range of anything.

Shooting. Both of the repeaters attempted a volley on the stegadon but the combination of armour and ward saves prevented more than a wound going on the dinosaur, while the priest made both his armour saves on a 4+.

In combat the dragon princes managed a poor collection of wounds (I rolled three 1's and a 2... ugh) and lost a knight, but still managed to run down their salamander. The real action, however, was taking place to their left. The silver helm tank crashed into the waiting saurus and made a magnificant number of hits before Fate turned against the elves and, despite making three wounds, Prince Seredain found his Giant Blade miraculously fended off by the saurus, who all parried on 6's (ugh). Despite this, 8 saurus were killed and their comrades managed only 4 wounds in reply... before the elf knights failed all four armour saves on a 3+ and crashed to the ground (UGH). The charge had done just enough, however. A full rank of knights (+1) stood against only one rank of Saurus and, with the impetus of the charge and Caradath's banner lending them strength, the elves broke the saurus and rode them down. The pursuit took them toward the centre of the board at a slight angle but, nonetheless, well within view of both the central salamander, now fleeing in panic and, critically, the flank of the temple guard.

The chariot and lions had a much easier time of it and together devastated the skink/krox cohort, pursuing it (since my ranks were in the flank), toward the centre of the board, tearing it apart but failing to catch the remaining four skink skirmishers. This was fine with the elves, however, since the skinks now stood directly infront of the temple guard, blocking their path and, since they were so close, even a reform move. They wouldn't block, however, a combined charge from the white lions and chariot into the temple guard next turn- instead providing a useful stepping stone. Further with Seredain, Caradath and the remaining silver helms set to crash through the salamander and into the temple guard's flank next turn, the Lizardmen were beginning to look like they were in very dire straits...

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:52 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 86
Quick question for you so far, you say you won the roll off to deploy, is this a house rule you use, because its not like that in the rule book any more, if you win a roll off, to start or deploy, that means you actually start, or deply first.

unless of course you agree otherwise.

Nice report, looking forward to the rest of it.

Polle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:37 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
mcpolle wrote:
Quick question for you so far, you say you won the roll off to deploy, is this a house rule you use, because its not like that in the rule book any more, if you win a roll off, to start or deploy, that means you actually start, or deply first.

I mean that I won the roll-off to decide who deploys the first unit and made him go first, then I won the roll-off to decide who gets the first turn and chose to go first. This follows the rules under 'Alternating Units' on p.142.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 86
just so we are on the same page here, not too sure we are,

Did you or he roll highest, because the person who rolls the highest, should as far as I can see after the rule book deploy first.

Winning the rool off, only means if you roll higher, you go first, not that you decide, think many people make this mistake, a roll over from 7th,

Unless of course you agree on it beforehand.:-)

Definition of a roll off, is on page 7,

(absoloutely, not trying to be a rules lawyer, just not sure if you were aware of it, thats all)

Polle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:14 pm 
Offline
Centurion

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Posts: 3298
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Please forego your sleep Seredain to finish this battle report! :)

I really think you could use that silver wand in there buddy!

_________________
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:27 am 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Lizardman Turn 3

The saurus spears and stegadon wheeled around the bane stone to face my white lions and swordmasters while the skink units to their right ran straight at my repeaters. The terradons kept fleeing but, brilliantly for me, the skinks who had fled infront of the temple guard rallied just in time to make an obstacle of themselves. The salamander also rallied between the TG's flank and the oncoming helms. In terms of movement my opponent could do nothing else.

Magic was a different story. The Slann was praying hard for some serious power and he got it, with 10 power dice flowing in and one successfully channelled. The good news for me was that, since the temple guard were now facing a combined flank and frontal assault from my knights, white lions and chariot, and the saurus spears were likely to face a hail of close-range bolts next turn, the Slann's mind was bent mostly on defence. The Engine sent up it's anti-bolt bubble over his neighbours and the Slann raised up Throne of Vines before throwing regeneration and Shield of Thorns on the temple guard. Lecalion managed to dispel Flesh to Stone. The lizards expended their last dice in hurling out Chain Lightning over the advancing elves, slaying 2 white lions, 4 swordmasters, 4 archers, 5 spears, one of the repeaters and knocking 2 wounds off the chariot (which was standing between the white lions and swords). Ouch. The silver lining was that the Slann's attempt at the powered-up Dwellers Below (against the spearelves) had failed- chiefly because he'd been expending all his dice on buffs and only had 3 (+1 from focus) to throw at the spell. Once again, he had been so busy casting that he'd forgotten to dispel my Throne of Vines.

High Elf Turn 4

The silver helms charged the salamander between them and the temple guard. The white lions and chariot both declared charges on the skinks, who declared a flee reaction, allowing both of them to run into the front of the temple guard. This was fantastic for me since the flaming attacks of the white lions would ignore the guard's regeneration. With my characters and my knights in the mix (they'd fight their combat against the salamander first, overrun into the TG's and so get to fight again), those lizards were toast and I'd be laughing.

Only I wasn't laughing, because for the chariot charge I rolled a 5- not enough by one inch- and for the white lion charge I rolled a 2. That's two 1's. Ugh. So, the lions stumbled forward one inch and the chariot put itself within charge range of the stegadon. The temple guard chuckled. This was a disaster. In one turn I could have won the battle. Now the stegadon, at full strength since the Slann had healed him up, was closing in alongside a full strength saurus block while all my units were stuck out in the open to face yet another magic phase.

The swordmasters advanced a little toward the saurus spears, leaving a gap between themselves and the lions, for the chariot to flee through, and a much bigger gap between them and the stegadon. The spears shifted left up onto the hill so that, when the saurus came on, they'd be open to a flank charge. Lecalion's archers had no targets so marched up to plug the gap between the swordmasters and spears and allow the archmage some targets for his spells, particularly the skinks would would cause my fragile elves some problems. The dragon princes, far from the battle, wheeled round and moved toward the centre of the field.

I was less worried about the Lizards' shield of thorns (with hits at only str 3 and being scattered between my 4 helms and characters, armour would take care of that), so I threw my paltry dice (6 I think against 3 dispel dice) first at shield of thorns on the helms (which went up) and then at awakening of the wood at the skirmishers, which was dispelled.

Shooting saw my left-hand archers shoot down their second terradon of the battle. My repeater had a punt at taking down the skink priest, but it took down a couple of skink crew (woo), and put a wound on the stegadon.

In combat my characters and helms wiped out the salamander and crashed into the flank of the temple guard. Next turn was going to be a biggie.

Lizardman Turn 4

The terradons - now out by the house on my far left- finally rallied and the stegadon charged the chariot, but it fled and caused a failed charged. The skinks moved close to the remaining repeater, aiming to snipe it out. The saurus spears faced a problem. They could either stand there and do nothing for the next 2 turns, or they could come on and risk a dual front-and-flank charge from my swordmasters and spears. They gritted their teeth and came on.

Magic saw a massive 12 dice go to my opponent. I dispelled Throne, which went up first, and scrolled Stone on the TG's (no way I was letting that go up this turn). Everything else, however, went off: regeneration on the TG's, awakening on the chariot, destroying it, iceshard blizzard on the repeater bolt thrower and, finally, Dwellers Below on the spearelves up on the hill, with irresistible force. Fully half of the elven citizens were dragged into the ground. On the bright side, the Slann's remaining dice drained away and four of his temple guard were fried. Maybe the toad had done me a favour...

Thorns flew off both shields, killing one silver helm and two temple guard (my shield was Str 4 because of Throne). Seredain was hit three times but was all-but-immune and shrugged it off. The engine of the gods tried to even the odds further but the roll for the range of burning alignment was just (and I mean just) short.

In the shooting phase the skinks finally showered and destroyed the last repeater (presumably iceshard blizzard was just insurance).

Combat. Fight, mighty elves!

Seredain cleaved three temple guard, Caradath took two and their companions (and steeds) skewered and trampled two more. The lizards were down to only three models but, even so, the one temple guard now in base contact put a wound on my battle standard bearer. Regardless, the Slann was now also in base contact with my knights and the elven prince wanted blood. The toad was in trouble.

High Elf Turn 5

The white lions readied their axes and declared a second charge into the temple guard. They'd finish them off and pursue past the charge arc of the stegadon. Excellent. Except it wasn't excellent, because I rolled double 1's to charge again. Son of a mother%^$"&*! I don't think I've played another game in which I've rolled so many ones. Bastards.

The swordmasters and spears both whispered prayers to the gods to speed their feet and successfully charged the saurus spear block to the front and flank. The dragon princes moved to counter the stegadon if it charged the white lions (who I'd flee) next turn.

The most important combat phase of the game started with the swordmasters going into overdrive and slaughtering reams of saurus, severed limbs and heads flying everywhere. The 16 spearelves, for their part, skewered another four and the deal looked done. Before the inevitable collapse, however, the saurus scar-veteran went on a crazed killing spree and smashed 5 swordmasters to the ground, his fellows killing another two before the impetus of the elven flank-charge scattered them all and the spears drove headlong into the flank of the stegadon. The stunned and crippled swordmasters trailed some way behind, shell-shocked by the pounding they'd just received. The white lions, at least, were safe.

All was to be decided on the fate of the Slann, then. Every elf within reach hacked at his body, fighting to get past the formidable 4+ ward save. Seredain invoked the power of Loec and managed 3 wounds (having initially rolled two 1's and a 2 to hit...), before Caradath finished the job to bring the Slann slumping lifeless from his plinth, which crashed into the dirt. The temple guard took revenge by dragging the elf noble from his horse but they were woefully outmatched, broke and were run down by the furious elven knights. The game was up and, with the death of his general and last two blocks, the Lizardman player conceded, though not before his skinks ran up behind the last few exhausted swordmasters and darted them to death.

Victory to the High Elves!


Comment and analysis will follow tomorrow, though feel free to ask questions in the meantime.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:21 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:44 am 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Mcpolle,

On page 142 of the Big Book it says that you roll-off (highest wins as per page 7), "to see who sets up the first unit". We take that to mean that the winner gets to see- ie choose- who sets up the first unit. We're aware that people do it the other way, but getting to choose is more tactical so we prefer it like that.

Jimmy,

Silver Wand vs Dispel Scroll

The silver wand could have been very helpful, since admittedly I got a pretty poor spell selection. However, if I hadn't had the scroll then I couldn't have dispelled the toughness buff on the Temple Guard on the turn my knights had charged in. If that had gone off, my knights would probably have been in a lot more trouble or, at least, the Slann would have been able to chuck all those spells at my army for another turn since I couldn't have cleared his bodyguard away so easily. On balance I think I'd rather keep the scroll.

Also remember that winning the battle of the mages against Lore of Life casters is as much about the RiP spells you dispel as the spells you successfully cast. It was just as important for my archmage to clear away throne of vines and flesh to stone as it was to cast anything, so I was always able to find uses for those power dice. If I didn't have a lot of things to cast, at least my opponent didn't get to keep his buffs up when he really needed them. Fair trade I reckon although, even so, I needed the scroll as well at the crucial moment. It all proved the difference between T4 and T8 temple guard: dispelling was more important than casting!

I'll provide a further analysis of the game tomorrow with some of my thoughts on other lessons learned. As I've said, questions welcome in the meantime.

And so to bed.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 3:13 am
Posts: 1983
Location: Illinois, USA
Great report! I can feel the frustration you must have had on those failed charges. You spend so much effort lining them up just right only to have the dice rip your plans away from you. Well, even the best laid plans often go awry, right?

I think you are right on the scroll over the silver wand. Having that scroll ready to go at a crucial moment is much more pivotal than the extra spell.

_________________
Battle Standard Bearer. Don't leave home without it.
Bolt Thrower's High Elves


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 86
Seredain: that is what I was asking, because there are as said many that have not seen it, but take it as given after 7th, that was all, now to get back and read the rest of the report.

Polle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:14 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12714
Location: Otherworld
I'd assumed from my reading of the rulebook that polle was right but double-checking it looks a bit unclear to me.

Thanks for the report Mr S. Deployment seems to have been key here.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 86
do not want to jack this outstanding thread, so will make a post on the tactics side and we can all look at it there, then Seredain, can be left in peace on his wonderfull reports, and thx for them,

Polle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 86
Very nice report, and thx for it,

Think you need to get some new dice sent to you, must be so irritating when you make all the right moves, only for the dice gods to be laughing in your face.

Polle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:34 pm
Posts: 263
I've had a few games with the prince and... I love him!

2 games at 2400 i drop 2 spears and the chariot because i always roll 1 on the impact hits. (South coast GT restrictions as well but luckily the list already fits that fine :))

So far it crushed a dark elf list including the prince soloing a 'unkillable' pendant bearer, and lost to brets (largely due to me failing to dispell anything all game and most things can't kill T7 knights)

And one game at 1500 where i ran the helm bus, prince and bsb, SM, 1 bolt thrower, archers, spears and a level 2 life mage.

It went well, the SH died to the man as normal but the prince and bsb took out a 15 man Temple guard unit with chacax and the slann and a 27 man suarus block at the same time! (they did have some help in the SH at first and then the spears but...)

I love the prince he is seriously hard i'm just trying to decide if the chariot and spear drop is right or if i should lose a bolt thrower. (I really love bolt throwers mind...)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:17 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
SpellArcher wrote:
Thanks for the report Mr S. Deployment seems to have been key here.

No probs!

Deploying Against the Lizards

Deployment absolutely was the key. Actually I believe it poses nasty problems for the Lizardmen when they're facing an elven list which features both long range shooting and cavalry power, for two reasons:

1: The Slann must go in the centre of his line to be protected from attack for as long as possible. Specifically, the units which stand either side of him must be the slow heavy infantry to guard his flanks. Basically, these two things mean that the moment my opponent places an infantry unit, I basically know straight away where the others are going- not the order they're in, of course, but certainly which area of board they'll be occupying. I therefore know where to deploy my knights and elites to achieve a flank heavily weighted against them.

2: The greater range of my shooting forces the lizardmen to come forward. They can't afford to castle because of my repeaters and archers (plus the Slann would remain out of Dwellers range). Also, if they deploy along one table edge, I can deploy on the far side of the board, my shooting and cavalry have the run of all that open space and their infantry never reach my lines.

To prevent me doing this, the Lizardmen tend to deploy centrally with their whole army, with their strength evenly spread to cover the possibility that my cavalry attack may come from either flank. This means I get to pick and choose which flank I target with my cavalry since both will be open on the flanks (so long as I take care of the support units standing guard), while neither flank will be able to bring to bear a great deal of force concentration against the units I deploy to break it: my speed means that the lizards can't respond quickly enough. Finally, since they have to come forward because of the shooting, the lizards open up even more on the flanks.

Basically, I think my list is bloody awkward to deploy against if you're a Lizardman player.

mcpolle wrote:
Very nice report, and thx for it,

Think you need to get some new dice sent to you, must be so irritating when you make all the right moves, only for the dice gods to be laughing in your face.

Bolt Thrower wrote:
Great report! I can feel the frustration you must have had on those failed charges. You spend so much effort lining them up just right only to have the dice rip your plans away from you. Well, even the best laid plans often go awry, right?

Chears chaps.

Plan for Bad Luck

Yeah, those dice gods really made me sweat! It's just so irritating when the dice go that wrong that repeatedly. To be fair, the match-ups I'd built during the deployment and initial movement phases favoured me so much that, even where I made a total of 4 failed charges at close range, I was still able to overwhelm the Lizardman left flank. It was a close-run thing, though, and I don't know what would've happened if the lizards had had another magic phase like their last two.

I suppose the lesson here is to Plan For Bad Luck- make sure the charges you take are ones where the odds are stacked in your favour and keep maneuvreing, shooting and magicking until you get them. Every single break-test the Lizards were required to take (excepting the stubborn temple guard) was, after modifiers, on Leadership 2 or 3. That's what you want against cold-blooded Lizardmen. I'll note here that the extra rank of the silver helms made sure that the HW saurus weren't steadfast on Turn 3- those extra bodies therefore made a massive difference.

Eldria wrote:
I've had a few games with the prince and... I love him!
...
I love the prince he is seriously hard i'm just trying to decide if the chariot and spear drop is right or if i should lose a bolt thrower. (I really love bolt throwers mind...)

Haha, that's good! I love him too. Tough call re. chariot vs repeater: luckily I fight 2500 battles so I don't need to decide. ;)

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:46 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12714
Location: Otherworld
Eldria wrote:
South coast GT

So you're planning to take this style of list Eldria? Should be an interesting change from the standard build. Last year it was all Star Dragons and Archmages!

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:34 pm
Posts: 263
SpellArcher wrote:
Eldria wrote:
South coast GT

So you're planning to take this style of list Eldria? Should be an interesting change from the standard build. Last year it was all Star Dragons and Archmages!


Yup, either this or a 4 lion chariot madness led by a level 4 light mage and level 2 seer carrying banishment and shems. Its brutal against undead and daemons and no one likes 2d6 str 5 hits re-rolling wards very much. I'll post army lists in a couple of weeks when i done some more testing


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:51 pm
Posts: 563
Seredain wrote:
That's an interesting list. I presume the archmage rides with the helms? They would certainly make a decent bodyguard though, since the AM lacks any protection, I'd worry about getting them into combat. As SpellArcher suggests, I'd look at shoving a combat character in there to get the best out of them. I like the white lions unit with BsB - it's an ideal size I reckon and it'll kick serious arse with the character there. Did you have any success with this list without Teclis? Also, would you mind editing out the double post, please?


I don't really trust my silver helms, so more often then not they are going into flanks or running out wide. The only things you really need to worry about are multi attack models. I've been in the practice of -S instead of T to ensure my Mage doesn't get ganked. Generally because I'm combo charging though there aren't many models left in the rear most corner anyway who can attack. It takes some practice but a second character would just add too much threat to the unit.

_________________
I saw Karaz-a-Karak...and then I burned it to the ground.

Baleanoon and House Morhathel march once again for the Glory of Khaine and his chosen King.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:02 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12714
Location: Otherworld
Eldria wrote:
4 lion chariot madness led by a level 4 light mage and level 2 seer carrying banishment and shems.

This I have to see!

:)

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:44 am
Posts: 3
I would like to ask about your Princes choice of weapons; the Giant Sword vs. the Blade of Hoeth. They are both the same points value. The Giant sword is +3 strength, the Blade of Hoeth automatically wounds. Can you give me some insight?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:40 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Absolutely.

The simple point is that the Sword of Hoeth doesn't reduce the armour save of your target. Taking the Giant Blade means the prince can tackle a much greater variety of targets including tough or armoured units, while the Hoeth sword is only really useful for tough things without armour, like giants. It's not a good all-purpose sword, so doesn't really belong in an all-comers list.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 86
Any further thoughts on your list, now you have played a few games with it???

Are the silver helms still doing it for you, or do you just look at them as a delivery system of the Prince??

Just basically trying to pick your brains, love the high elves, but have really had some problems getting them to gell for me.

Polle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 3:13 am
Posts: 1983
Location: Illinois, USA
elvenspears wrote:
I would like to ask about your Princes choice of weapons; the Giant Sword vs. the Blade of Hoeth. They are both the same points value. The Giant sword is +3 strength, the Blade of Hoeth automatically wounds. Can you give me some insight?

My guess would be that the Sword of Hoeth would only wound at S4 which is easily turned aside by most armour that faces the Prince. S7 from the Giant Blade would negate any of those saves.

_________________
Battle Standard Bearer. Don't leave home without it.
Bolt Thrower's High Elves


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:21 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
I thought it was about time I dealt with these questions from the last page.

mcpolle wrote:
How have 12 WL been fairing for you, because they seem so small a unit to a) either make much damage, or b) take much damage.

Small Elite Units

The answer is 'very well', but you have to make up for their vulnerability to protracted combats by either protecting/repairing them (Life magic) or by making sure you are going to break the enemy in one or two rounds with combo charges or flank attacks (we've discussed unit combinations earlier in the thread). In the last game I didn't have the right buffs, so only charged my elites in when they had the support which would all-but guarantee me a decisive win in one round.

One thing to remember about small units: for one round, 12 white lions and 18 white lions have the same number of attacks. If you make that round count, you won't need the extra rank. In fact, the 90 points saved on a third rank of lions will buy you a tiranoc chariot which will give even more attacks on the first round. Otherwise you can (usually) resort to Flesh to Stone and Regrowth.

mcpolle wrote:
Seredain: Earlier on this page when talking about your game agaisnt the lizzis, that the match up you really wanted was, the SM against his TG...

For me, swordmasters are an excellent foil for temple guard because they can just lay a massive amount of damage into them quickly (as has been said, TG's only have a 4+ save in combat). Typically I don't worry about the TG's hitting back because by then I have another unit in their flank or rear. The point is, I don't want to be fighting TG's in protracted combats- the Slann will eventually get his magic through and start bringing the pain. Kill them quickly: for me, this means flank/rear charges and swordmasters. White Lions would also work well, but my lions are often occupied against more specialised opponents like cavalry, monsters and so on.

SpellArcher wrote:
How do you keep a lid on the Slann?

The Slann

The Slann is an interesting opponent. From the off you just assume he's going to be terrifying and, basically, he is. A good mantra is that you should defend what you can and suffer what you must: if your opponent's spent that many points on magic, he can expect returns.

However, I've found that one of his best abilities, Focus of Rumination (free power dice with every cast), can also limit the amount of critical damage he does. Since the Lizardman player will often want as many free dice as he can lay his hands on, he'll try and cast as many spells as he can. This means that he'll often try and use as few dice as possible per spell and this has two possible consequences:

1- You'll be more likely to be able to dispel the spells you don't want to go through, especially since the Slann is less likely to get IF.
2- It becomes more likely that the Slann will fail to cast and effectively end his magic phase. This only happened once in the last game, but once is enough to make a big difference.

The rest of the time, you dispel maybe one or two spells per turn. If the Slann takes Lore of Life, you can also put the Slann under pressure by deploying away from him and presenting him with a number of threats. The former means that Dwellers will be out of range of your critical unit for much of the game (24" is not a long way). In the last game my prince's silver helm tank was always either out of range of Dwellers or out of the Slann's arc of sight. Presenting a large number of threats confuses the Lizardman player in his choice of targets for his buffs. In the last game the Lizardmen were very afraid of my repeaters and what they'd do to the large saurus spear block over. So, lots of energy was put into protecting them (which I let through) when I was really concerned with crushing units on the other flank. When it came to the critical spells (Throne and Stone on the temple guard), I had the dice and the scroll to block them and turn the game.

mcpolle wrote:
Any further thoughts on your list, now you have played a few games with it???Are the silver helms still doing it for you, or do you just look at them as a delivery system of the Prince??

I'm really loving the list, yes. Just because I have all the elements to take on (so far) anyone I've faced. What's more it's very fun to play: it's brilliant, fitting my units into different battle lines, orchestrating them all together to devastate the enemy and having the prince lead them with his spectacular cavalry charges. Good fun, tactical and (to an opponent), surprising, unnerving and difficult.

Reflections on the Silver Helms

As for the silver helms, they're primarily there as a bodyguard for the prince, but the impact of the unit itself is important. In the last game it was the fact that I had a full rank of cavalry, even having lost 4 of them, that meant I broke the saurus' steadfast and ran them down in one turn. Indeed, since the saurus miraculously parried all the prince's attacks, it was the helms and BSB that got all the kills: fighting in units with two ranks, helms make a good return on their points.

If I'd taken the same number of points in dragon princes (6), I would have killed as many saurus but I wouldn't have broken their steadfast since I wouldn't have had a full rank, so my prince's great flank attack, and the death of the slann, would've taken a turn longer: that's a whole other magic phase I'd have to get through. Further, nasty things like Burning Alignment and lore of Heavens lightning would've gained access to my characters much more quickly.

In short, while I'm fielding the cavalry prince, I'm spectacularly happy with fielding silver helms. If you want to field a powerful fighting cavalry character (or two) and you don't want to spend the points on a large unit of dragon princes (9+), taking the two ranks of helms is better, all things considered, than taking a single rank of dragon princes.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 86
Thx for sharing your thoughts,

Got any pics of the army :-)

Polle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:50 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
I've just stashed them all in my new carry-case, but I'll take a picture of them next time they're on the field. Possibly this Thursday but, at the latest, by the time the campaign starts in early March. I'm trying to keep them in the case at the mo to encourage me to play more games in preparation!

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 86
remember to charge the battery for the camera:-)

Polle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:11 am
Posts: 296
*thumbs up on ur list*

I like the silver helms I know they are "not as good as DP" but why are they always doing something useful for me... they have this nitch they seem to fill with me, soon as I stop taking them i started losing more. When I put them to because of skinks I got 2 massacres against difficult oppenants. The dice gods favor people who use silver helms???

Ive notice people treat killing them like its the holy grail and people so happy to kill them even if its an trap... something about knights make people think defeating a unit of 5 of them is SOOO important... I keep seeing this. The DPs are 35 more points and im a lot more relunctant to sac them for a flank or whatever.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:11 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Univeristy of Glasgow
I like the list Seredain, even my dwarfs would have a bit of hard time with all those targets (eagle, rbt, chariot). But a busy cannon is a happy cannon :D. The characters are nicely done I think. Prince with 1+ rerollable and st7 with ASF. + loec for hard stuff.

I think you need a few more elite infantry in your units. I actually suggest making both units white lions, the shooting will help preserve their numbers. There isnt really anything you can shave off to add numbers to your elites I suppose. Maybe combine them?

_________________
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:49 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Cheers chaps!

Lord Anathir wrote:
But a busy cannon is a happy cannon :D.

Haha, I was hoping a busy cannon blew up more often.

Lord Anathir wrote:
I think you need a few more elite infantry in your units. I actually suggest making both units white lions, the shooting will help preserve their numbers. There isnt really anything you can shave off to add numbers to your elites I suppose. Maybe combine them?

You're right both in that I could do with more elite infantry and that I don't want to shave anything in order to pay for them.

One Unit of Elites or Two?

I've thought long and hard about combining the swords and lions but a few things have stopped me. The lions are a nice cover-all unit: if I see a hydra go down, I can deploy 12 lions at relatively little expense. If there were 21 lions to deploy, I'd have to sacrifice strength elsewhere to counter that hydra (and expose more models to that horrible flame). With the two drops I can do more things.

We've discussed elsewhere the advantages of target saturation (people will often ignore my small elites and do something silly like go after the helms), and the fact that small units are harder to hit with templates and less vulnerable to the big killer spells. There's also the fact that Life magic can (usually) regrow them and that (also as discussed above), 14 swordmasters will hit as hard as 21 swordmasters in the first round of combat. And then having 2 units means I can hit a single block to the front and flank with my two elite units for the insta-kill rather than having to grind away with one unit.

Lastly, lions and swordmasters do different things. If I take a unit of each, I gain a nice amount of flexibility. Want to chop up a load of WS5 infantry? Want to fend off a nasty heavy cavalry unit? In each instance I have the right tool. And my own heavy cavalry unit in their side.

With steadfast and attacks back in 8th, I know that large units are often the way to go, but at the moment it just seems I'm finding more uses for the two units, supported by Life magic, shooting and cavalry, than the one big block. If I need a steadfast meat factory, I go to my trusty spears.

Drakova wrote:
I like the silver helms I know they are "not as good as DP" but why are they always doing something useful for me... they have this nitch they seem to fill with me, soon as I stop taking them i started losing more. When I put them to because of skinks I got 2 massacres against difficult oppenants. The dice gods favor people who use silver helms???
.
Yes. Yes they do. Fact.

Drakova wrote:
Ive notice people treat killing them like its the holy grail and people so happy to kill them even if its an trap... something about knights make people think defeating a unit of 5 of them is SOOO important... I keep seeing this.

That's true! Especially with dragon princes. You might not want to throw away a unit of 5, but there's also nothing else worth 150 points that'll get such a reaction when you put it down. I've often placed them on a flank and seen my opponent just freak out and throw units in front of them like they were literally princes, much to the detriment of the rest of his army...

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1695 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 57  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group