Brewmaster! I suckered you in at last...
I'm in the middle of catching up on your Light Coven batreps, coincidentally. Wonderful reports. Strength 7 banishment is just fiendish...
Folariath's Robe - let's not get cocky...
Good tips on the Robe. Thanks in particular for your point about freewheeling the archmage. It's too easy to think that you don't need to follow the rules just because you're packing ethereal on your caster. 1 charge from fast enemy troops and 1 unlucky leadership test, and your 325 point model is getting run over by dark riders. For sure, careful play (like keeping him within 12" of the prince or out of charge ranges), is still required.
As for enemy spells, it's a useful game mechanic that you know what spells your opponent has at the beginning of the game. Honestly, if you get your archmage, who doesn't need line of sight for most of his spells, fireballed in the face (or killed by anything needing line of sight), you've been foolish. Death magic is a more interesting challenge but, ultimately, a Robe archmage can much more easily stay out of range because his protection means he isn't bound to a unit. He can therefore dance out of range easily and, if you've taken High Magic, still be within 24" range for everything he needs to do. As for miscasts and feedback, High Magic helps because it has such low casting values: neither are much of a threat as long as I don't get foolhardy and start chucking 5/6 dice.
I'll leave your specific questions until last, if I may, since they're useful points to conclude the topic with.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Hi Seredain!
It seems to me you are going for more defensive, counter-charge approach now. Any particular reason for that?
Hey Swordie! MSU going well, I see?
A bit yes and a bit no. Remember that, in most of my draft lists, I've been running 2 repeater bolt throwers. In fact, my very first tactical post,
"On Repeater Bolt Throwers", was about why repeaters (although expensive) can be wonderful to hitty-but-fragile High Elves. In that sense (although High Magic is a big change), I'm going back to my roots a little.
The Return of the Reapers
On the other hand, as you say, there is a change of emphasis here from the list I've been recently running. Having made the switch to 2 eagles, I'm not likely to go back to just one. For an army like mine, which wants to take out pieces of the enemy army one at a time, having another turn of eagle-harassment is just gold dust. On the other hand, losing the 2nd repeater (for a boosted magic phase), made my life difficult in other ways. All of a sudden, enemy harassment units (especially fast cav and flyers, but also individual characters like Chaos disc-sorcerers), were spending much more time close in to my units than being blasted from the face of the earth or scared into hiding. Remember those fiends dancing into my backline and eating my white lions? I hated it. It wasn't the damage they caused (I won through in the end, and magic helped there), it was the fact that I wasn't in control of my part of the field, and it lost me models and, just as bad, movement. My archers and spears spent most of the battle stuck in defensive formation and, it was only in the last 2 turns that I was able to break them out and have them join my knights to win the game - literally in the last turn.
After that game, getting the 2nd eagle allowed me to dedicate the archers to stopping these kind of units, but the 2nd repeater bolt thrower makes it so much easier to take out such units and control board space, protecting my soft elf infantry (as well as acting as another target itself). It also, of course, helps to make holes in units (or big monsters) that I plan on killing quickly in combat. Because shooting has the greatest range of any weapon we posses, it is perhaps the archetypal 'balance tipper' and, therefore, brings a lovely amount of tactical flexibility for a High Elf army looking to go on the attack.
You mentioned 'counter-attacking', though, and you were right. Heavy cavalry is the best troop type at going forward quickly, but it's even better at leaping out at units whose advance has left them exposed. Shooting, in concert with magic, has an incredibly important role to play here. If your enemy thinks he can stand still without suffering damage, he will take up a strong position and take his chances or, if his own shooting is potent, force you to come to him. My list can do this kind of full-out attack, but the basic truth is that it is
much easier to steamroll an enemy flank when it's coming towards you. You'll get there quicker, and they won't be able to rely on a board-edge to save them. So, having a decent shooting phase forces my opponent (depending on his army), to march towards me and, in so doing, to make himself vulnerable.
This is where High Magic comes in.
High on Life
I've talked lots about the usefulness of Life Magic for a list like mine - it makes up for the fact that I haven't spent much on elite infantry (by making them hard), it heals my fighting characters (where I can get the archmage close enough), and Dwellers adds a massive amount of power to my ranged potential (few enemy units want to just sit there and take a Dwellers every turn). Crucially, since I only run one caster, it also provides miscast protection.
So how does High Magic, a cheap utility lore, make up for these strengths generally and, especially, Dwellers Below?
Let's get High
The first, obvious, answer is the
Curse of Arrow Attraction. Shooting is important to me, but I don't want to spend all my core points on it since the cheaper, ranked-up spearelves are the best steadfast unit I have and also the best unit for
breaking steadfast alongside my hitty elites and cavalry. For a list that relies mostly on MSU-ish tactics, having one big block to work around is fantastic. Arrow Curse, then, is the shortcut to helping my shooting become amazing without spending more points on it. The repeaters, especially, benefit immensely. 100 points is not so many to spend on a machine if it's re-rolling missed hits. The arrow curse is, in effect, our engineer.
The ultimate point about Arrow Curse is the point about High Magic in general: with the right kind of units to work with, it becomes an absolute steal for its casting value. With 28 archers (including 18 flaming) and 2 repeaters, Arrow Curse becomes a deadly spell, and my archmage only needs a 3 to cast it. Vaul's Unmaking, always irritating but now deadly, with my cavalry prince rushing enemy characters (especially the dreadlord), needs 8. Whole unit combos end to this spell. Shield of Saphery, much better than a basic Earthblood with its 24" range, is another 3-up and adds a "Life-mini" kind of support to my combat units. Fury just adds to the shooting phase and helps me win that essential board control or focus down that big unit. On its own, ok, but alongside all those other missiles? Much better. Courage of Aenarion, often unloved, finds its best use in non-steadfast MSU units. Against low-stength troops, eagles gain steadfast becomes a real problem. And Flames of the Phoenix? It was good in 7th. In 8th, when we're so often facing hordes of 50 models or more, it is simply stupendous for an 11+ spell - half the price of 24" Dwellers. I need to roll a 7 to hit 50 skaven? And it's
Remains in Play? Amazing. Let's also remember the issue with target restrictions and the Old Book magic spells. To my knowledge, there remains no barrier to casting Flames into combat. And, of course, the other boon of this cheapness is that more spells can be cast per phase; making up, in part, for the loss of the Banner of Sorcery. Drain Magic is just the cherry on the cake.
The final point, always crucial in my head as a one-wizard player, is the miscast issue. You'll notice that none of the above spells require more than 3 dice. I don't have Throne, then, but neither will miscasting be a big feature of a High-archmage game. On the other hand, all of these spells
will, because of my variety of units, always be useful throughout the game. This makes dispelling a hard choice for my opponent or, if he's simply too afraid of Vaul's (deathstars) or Flames (cheap hordes), allow me to do anything else. Shield in particular (a wonderful spell for my cavalry), is far less likely to be dispelled when cast on my knights than Flesh to Stone. It is something of an irony that my cavalry will likely end up
better protected by High Magic than by Life. The casting values also mean, of course, that I can cast more spells with each phase.
Time to come down to Earth and look at the problems with the switch, then.
Choose Life
My characters can't be healed. This makes the Talisman of Loec an inferior item, since I'll have to think much more carefully about when to pop it. The archmage himself, unless I take Folariath's Robe (see above), becomes more vulnerable and, if he's dead, you can ignore everything I've said above.
Dwellers. Yes, it's dirty and horrid. But being able to sink a Slann into the ground on Turn 2 is stupendous. The fact that I can get myself miscast protection with Throne and then 6-dice this spell makes it a killer. Flames, meanwhile, can never kill characters. On the other hand, my army is full of character-killing weapons (namely the elites and my own characters), and recently we've seen the danger in leaving them unsupported by using Dwellers in their stead (my last game with the Lizards).
Throne of Vines. Being able to force through the spell you need, on 6 dice, is a valuable gift, and Throne lets it happen. With High Magic, I'm more likely to get
more very useful spells off in a turn, but I'll be reluctant to force through one that I
really want for fear of miscasting.
Flesh to Stone. Because it solves their fundamental weakness, this spell is the single best friend to swordmasters. Regrowth, which can sweep my unit of 14 back to life again, compounds the problem for my opponents. How can they focus enough points to kill these terrible swords when there's a helm tank running amok? The real test of the switch to High will, I think, be whether my elite infantry can survive games with their defences down. The shield should go off reliably, but it isn't as good as T5/T7 against most troops. High will have to make up for this by making my own weapons better: enemy shooters can't hurt swordmasters if they've been Fury'd, shot to death, Flamed (shooty hordes are rare but they do exist) or drained of runes by Vaul's.
High Magic and the Robe
And so we turn to the Ethereal Archmage. Brewmaster, your point about the Robe synergising with Life Magic was spot on. Indeed, I've thought about it before but honestly, in the context of this change (the switch to High Magic came before the Robe), I hadn't even considered it. I had, however, considered the use of the Robe in the context of the whole army and, in this sense, considering I've lost Life, it fits with High Magic absolutely perfectly.
For an army that's abandoned Life magic and all its benefits, one of the best ways to protect the fragile elites is to simply hold the things that really kill them. With High Magic, shooting and all my high-strength close combat attacks, I can deal with hordes and most monsters. But what about the monsters I can't kill quick enough (ie where there are 2 or 3 of them), and who'll thunderstomp the T3 swordmasters to death? Shield helps but, as we've looked at above, a robed archmage can be a total life-saver against any stomper that lacks static combat resolution. Simply put, the swordmasters can ignore it until they're ready to flank, or until the prince has ridden in to do the job.
In this sense, you see, the Robe doesn't so much make the archmage better at what he does (as it would with Life by allowing him to get in close and cast
Earthblood), rather it
compensates for the defensive weakness of High Magic by giving me yet another unit (on top of the prince and accumulated missile fire), with which to neutralise 8th Edition's big beasts. The Robe doesn't help a High Magic archmage at all, then, but it helps his army immensely even as it enjoys the more versatile benefits of the new lore.
Conclusion
Brewmaster_D wrote:
So with that in mind, a few questions for you Seredain:
1. Given your equipment change on your Archmage, and the long(ish) ranges on most of the High Magic spells, do you think High Magic is still the right choice of lores, over your traditional choice of life?
2. I view High Magic and Light Magic as being very close to each other in overall utility. Now that your Archmage can function in a more central location, have you considered what Light could potentially bring to the table? (Yeah I know, shut up about the lore of light, D
)
3. If you were to change the lores to something other than High, would your shooting setup change with the loss of Curse of Arrow attraction?
So, to conclude:
1) I do, because it helps the army manage the loss of the Lore of Life by providing another anvil for the high active-CR but low static-CR units which populate 8th edition and which can worry those small elite units. That High Magic can threaten these with Arrow Curse and Fury, and provide aid with the Shield, matches well with the Robe to keep my defense strong while also adding a bunch of weapons (or weapon-enhancers) to my anti-monster arsenal. Being able to flit around the board also means that, with 24" range on the spells, I can be throwing Fury at skirmishers in the same turn as I'm killing a deathstar's magical banner. Manoeuvreability and 24" range go very well together.
2) I have, but the specific qualities of High Magic fit so well with every element of my army that I think, for the casting price, I'd be silly not to give it a go. There's Arrow Curse for repeaters and archers, Vaul's for the prince, Shield for anything, Flames for Dwellers, Fury for board-control, Courage for MSU units, Drain Magic for improved defense (worth mentioning since I have a cheap magic phase). Finally, I
never think of a magic phase without considering miscasts. To get this kind of synergy for such low casting values (and the security which follows), is something I value very highly.
3) A very good question indeed. Honestly, I'm not certain how to answer it. For sure, there will be battles where I don't roll Arrow Curse, and I'll get on just fine because the other spells slot in so well. However, it's hard to think of my shooting phase being as dangerous without it. On the other hand, my old 2RBT phase served its purpose admirably: forcing the enemy to advance, clearing light units and hammering attacking units pre-combat. I just wasn't happy then with the lack of eagles and got lured by the Banner of Sorcery (a wonderful item when you're looking to power your way thorugh to a T7 unit or Dwellers Below). Now that I've got cheap High spells, the banner isn't quite so necessary to get many spells off (remember that, by casting more spells, my opponent's dispel pool has to deal with many more '+4 to cast' bonuses from my archmage), and I still have the 2 eagles. I think the repeaters have made a welcome return, then, and this would still be the case without the Curse. Having said that, the Curse is a standout spell alongside these units. Other lores would become contenders if it wasn't there.
However, it's worth mentioning, as an afterthought, that my enduring attraction to High Magic has for a long time been about Vaul's Unmaking and not the Arrow Curse. The idea that my prince couldn't slay a dreadlord never sat well with me. No more! His role as a character-assassin is greatly improved by this spell, while my own ability to hold of 8th's filthiest combos is made much better. It's a unique, and amazing, 8th Ed spell. And only 12+ to cast!
Really excellent questions, dude. I'm glad you joined the party.
My rematch against Mallas should be coming up soon, so we'll see how I can get along against the Lizards without Slann-sniping Dwellers and stegadon-stopping Flesh to Stone. A good test of the new setup, for sure. Fingers crossed!