Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:07 am
I really should paint up the rest of my army instead of playing Skyrim.
Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
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Hey mate. The problem with a "smart mage" and Mr S is definately that, is they will always keep outside 24" of the Slann, BUT just within range of a TG. That means that they can cast Dwellers on the Slann unit without Becalming affecting the cast. Very shrewed huh?Gwydion wrote:After some research: The name of the item is Divine Plague of Protection and it gives the slann a 2+ wardsave against any kind of ranged attack. And with the discipline "becalming cogitations" (chosen wizard in 24 inches ignores 6s) the slann is nearly immune to dwellers. Don´t want to hijack this wonderful thread. Just add a little for Mallus.
I think I used Cupped Hands to save my ass from the Flesh IF because I rolled a 1 to ignore with Throne . His mage was out of LOS so all I could do was ignore miscast.SpellArcher wrote:Just a thought, if he'd not had Throne up on that 7-die spell, wouldn't Cupped Hands have saved him from the miscast? Also, would you have taken the combo-charge against T6 Saurus or not?
Agree with Swordmaster about the magic phase. I have a lesser version of this with Flames. It's a powerful spell (though not quite the game-changer that Dwellers can be) but you don't expect to get it off much. It's there to drain dice and get your smaller spells through. Or as in this game, not be cast at all in favour of dispelling RIP!
Yeah, it's easy to forget this when all you can think about is seeing that mother-flippin' slann fall into a hole but, really, when you're packing an army that's full of killers (as so many High Elf armies are), utility spells and smart dispelling are so often the way to go. Not always, mind (in fact using this spell to execute powerful mages is one of its best uses), but often.SpellArcher wrote:Agree with Swordmaster about the magic phase. I have a lesser version of this with Flames. It's a powerful spell (though not quite the game-changer that Dwellers can be) but you don't expect to get it off much. It's there to drain dice and get your smaller spells through. Or as in this game, not be cast at all in favour of dispelling RIP!
Well spotted SA! But yeah, as Mal says, the slann shrugged off a miscast a couple of turns later using the cupped hands (I kept Lecalion safely hidden behind the high-helmeted swordmasters to prevent the 'ol miscast switcheroo), so getting rid of throne at this stage would have forced a miscast, albeit slightly further down the line.Mallas wrote:I think I used Cupped Hands to save my ass from the Flesh IF because I rolled a 1 to ignore with Throne . His mage was out of LOS so all I could do was ignore miscast.SpellArcher wrote:Just a thought, if he'd not had Throne up on that 7-die spell, wouldn't Cupped Hands have saved him from the miscast? Also, would you have taken the combo-charge against T6 Saurus or not?
Mwuahaha!Mallas wrote:Hey mate. The problem with a "smart mage" and Mr S is definately that, is they will always keep outside 24" of the Slann, BUT just within range of a TG. That means that they can cast Dwellers on the Slann unit without Becalming affecting the cast. Very shrewed huh?Gwydion wrote:After some research: The name of the item is Divine Plague of Protection and it gives the slann a 2+ wardsave against any kind of ranged attack. And with the discipline "becalming cogitations" (chosen wizard in 24 inches ignores 6s) the slann is nearly immune to dwellers. Don´t want to hijack this wonderful thread. Just add a little for Mallus.
Cheers!akielzather wrote:Anyaway,Cheers To the Wise friends that help us evolve out lists and improve not only the list, but how we actually play these as well.
Hey Malcontent,Malcontent wrote:Hey Seredain, I've got a Fantasy Campaign coming up and was wondering what a 2000 list would be like. I know that you have a version on page 5, but now that you have dropped one of the Bolt Throwers would you change the list significantly?
The core design of my list will remain the same. A few tweaks here and there will be made.SpellArcher wrote:Be interesting to see whether Mallas changes his list at all. I quite fancy your guys against this kind of Warriors army but I guess we'll see!
Haha, yeah I think I can make it work! Let's not pretend this is a tactic that will be suitable for taking on anything, mind. The archmage need never be fielded like this. The bottom line is that an expensive, T3, saveless model needs to stay out of danger. Getting him into protracted combats, or into base contact with elite enemy units, would be foolish.SpellArcher wrote:I always feel that rolling for spells makes more sense when you want the signature spell. Earthblood is great in itself but for us I guess it's always the issue of not wanting that AM anywhere near danger. Until now it seems! This new plan sounds exceedingly hairy to me but you'll pull it off with your usual nonchalance no doubt Seredain!.
Me too - I like fighting warriors. Some serious niggles will be the hell cannon (hate it), Third Eye of Tzeentch (nasty) and, of course, the altar-buffed chosen warriors. I can take them out if they don't get the best bonuses but, if they're 3+ ward and +1 attack or something, I might just have to avoid them. I could always park the prince infront of them and say 'come and have a go' but, while the eagles are still going, he'd probably be put to better use helping to kill other units. We'll see how the enemy army looks I guess!SpellArcher wrote:I quite fancy your guys against this kind of Warriors army but I guess we'll see!
Didn't help me, did it Mal?Mallas wrote:That last game I had no Dwellers, remember. So that could have also been a game changer...
Good question Curu! The truth is that Time really is at a stretch for me at the moment. I rarely have free workday evenings and my weekends are also typically pretty full, making travel difficult. A weekend tournie in London, though? I can manage that, for sure. I await news of 2.5K tournies taking place in the new year. If I hear of them, I'll rock up and see what can be done. I actually swamped a dual-ironblaster/ gutbus ogres list when I played them the first time (my opponent was inexperienced with them, but my archmage blew up on Turn 1 so I say fair's fair ). I've also got fair experience against Slann lizards (stay out of Dwellers range until your knights hit combat); and I've got units to rush human/dwarf gunlines; I can take hordes out with movement and combo-charges... I'd say I've got a chance.Curu Olannon wrote:Seredain - have you considered taking this list to a league/tournament with a relatively hard setting, i.e. a place where most people are fairly experienced and play with hard army lists?
The thing is that you've proven how capable this list is in the hands of an excellent general. However, I do believe it lacks proper testing in a tough environment. I don't believe anyone's better suited to try this out than you are, as you have more experience with the list than anybody else. Now I don't know how busy real life etc is for you, but living in the London area it shouldn't be too hard to attend a tourney if you want to? It would be great to see the Cavalry Prince smash apart anything from double-hydra shadow-DE to dual-ironblaster deathstar-Ogres. It would also provide a real challenge for you I believe and it would really put your army to the test.
At most tournaments this is considered bad form. Many actually state that you should let your opponent read your book if he so requests.Seredain wrote:at a tournament where your opponent isn't a cool guy who'll let you look at his book.
Just put down your eagles as far forward as possible, and dupe him into thinking that you will run at him. Then, when he castles on or near his board edge, set your units up on your own board edge, out of range of his warmachines 60" range, and offer a draw.where I'm not pulling Battle of the Pass against a Dwarf gunline, I think I could give it a fair whack.
A friend of mine challenged me to try out your list at a tournament this weekend. Since I always run my Wood elves at tournaments I thought it would be fun to try something new out. And since I'm working on a HE army of my own I could not resist the chance to get some games in with a borrowed armySeredain wrote:Good question Curu! The truth is that Time really is at a stretch for me at the moment. I rarely have free workday evenings and my weekends are also typically pretty full, making travel difficult. A weekend tournie in London, though? I can manage that, for sure. I await news of 2.5K tournies taking place in the new year. If I hear of them, I'll rock up and see what can be done. I actually swamped a dual-ironblaster/ gutbus ogres list when I played them the first time (my opponent was inexperienced with them, but my archmage blew up on Turn 1 so I say fair's fair ). I've also got fair experience against Slann lizards (stay out of Dwellers range until your knights hit combat); and I've got units to rush human/dwarf gunlines; I can take hordes out with movement and combo-charges... I'd say I've got a chance.Curu Olannon wrote:Seredain - have you considered taking this list to a league/tournament with a relatively hard setting, i.e. a place where most people are fairly experienced and play with hard army lists?
The thing is that you've proven how capable this list is in the hands of an excellent general. However, I do believe it lacks proper testing in a tough environment. I don't believe anyone's better suited to try this out than you are, as you have more experience with the list than anybody else. Now I don't know how busy real life etc is for you, but living in the London area it shouldn't be too hard to attend a tourney if you want to? It would be great to see the Cavalry Prince smash apart anything from double-hydra shadow-DE to dual-ironblaster deathstar-Ogres. It would also provide a real challenge for you I believe and it would really put your army to the test.
However I'm conscious, as ever, that my army book knowledge still needs improvement: there are way too many nasty surprises out there which I don't yet know inside out (classic character builds and what they do; greater daemon kits; some of the newer buzz-word magic items)- and that kind of ignorance will be punished at a tournament where your opponent isn't a cool guy who'll let you look at his book. That aside, I think I can take on most armies, as I say. Scenarios in 8th tend to reward flexible lists so, where I'm not pulling Battle of the Pass against a Dwarf gunline, I think I could give it a fair whack.
Anyway, if I enter a tournament when the opportunity arises, you'll hear all about it for sure.
Yes I have! In fact, since playing a recent fortress-defence battle with 6000 points worth of High Elves (I'm trying to get hold of pics...), I fell a little bit in love with the robe. I'm working on another list edit at the moment which I'm quite excited about but which hasn't seen any games yet. More on that later. The really good thing about the robe, though, isn't protecting the mage from rank and file (unless they're the multiple-attacks kind); it's parking infront of the big stuff which minces your elves but lacks static combat res: the big monsters, steam tanks, chariot units etc. Hard to turn such capability down for an 'all-comers' list, even if you have to think about losing the Banner of Sorcery... Tweaking is just never done is it?Bounce wrote:If putting your archmage on the front lines have you considered taking Folariath's robe?
I found it very effective at keeping out of harms way while still being in the thick of things to cast spells.
Earthblood is good but when you want to cast so many other spells I don't know if you will find enough dice for it?
A very good point indeed, Fanatic. Short answer? Probably not, unless circumstances made it necessary. Against ogres I miscast (with Throne up in fact), lost the archmage and, with him, all but 3 of my lions. Not a good start! If in doubt, let your archmage blow up core troops and not elites. Life magic (or spells with low casting-values) allows you bit more flexibility in this respect, but it's an important thing to remember for sure! Losing a template's worth of elites in one go is not something I want to experience very often!FriendlyFanatic wrote:Would you still put the AM in the lions if you dont roll throne?
We all know how much misscasts hurt when the AM is with our elites.
I had to think about this seriously (pretty much for the first time) recently, because a couple of friends are building up new armies and haven't made it to 2.5K yet (Warriors and Dark Elves). I'll post the lists I've thought about later (because it's late and they'll warrant a bit of explanation) but, basically, your choices are (since you have to ditch the level 4 archmage), whether to go for a cut-price defensive magic phase or try and hold on to a decent one. The quickest solution is to take a single level 2, reduce core and lose one of the smaller units- for a list which works much as the larger one but with very basic magic (take High for the ward save and drain Magic). Another alternative is to put the Radiant Gem on the BSB and go for a shield-spam +drain magic phase, hoping for another useful spell from High magic. Another alternative I've toyed with (and like the look of), is an all-archer core (horde of 30 plus 10), backed up by a bolt thrower and 2 level 2's packing High Magic; for cheap spells, Flames, shield and, crucially, Arrow Curse: forcing the enemy forward a bit to open up gaps for the cavalry. In fact, thinking about this variation started me reviewing my 2.5K list, with some interesting consequences... More on that later.Malcontent wrote:Just a question about the 2000 point list, specifically about the Prince. What differences would there be when the list is changed? If I take a Cavalry Prince list, the prince would need top stay the same no matter what the list points limit is.
Good luck, Joey! A skeptical friend, I wonder? Let us know how you get on.joey_boy wrote:A friend of mine challenged me to try out your list at a tournament this weekend. Since I always run my Wood elves at tournaments I thought it would be fun to try something new out. And since I'm working on a HE army of my own I could not resist the chance to get some games in with a borrowed army
Thank you, Oberon, that's very nice of you to say so. I like the 20 PG's: a good anvil units to work alongside knights and, since you have them, there's less need for you to have the spear column, so your switching in of the static seaguard bastion makes more sense than it would in my kind of army. It's always tempting just to lose the bolters, but I've missed having 2 in my army. Combined with some serious archer power and sympathetic magic, there's nothing better for opening an enemy army up to your cavalry by giving your opponent a reason to move against you. Repeaters can be a key element in that. And then, of course, there's the flaming archers+ bolters for taking down the regenerating gribblies...Oberon wrote:Seredain, I wanted to commend you again on all your efforts, not just with building a brilliant list, but also maintaining the level of civil discourse that you do. Both are high marks and your execution has really shined.
Oberon and my variation of Seredain's 'new model army' have really made 8th edition enjoyable and continue to confound my foes for all the reasons you have listed. Prince Oberon carried me across our league's finish line for first; I then purchased my dragon princes and switched out all my bolt throwers, and I have yet to be disappointed. My version is slightly different: instead of White Lions I prefer a block of 20 PG and I can't part with my all-purpose block of Seaguard (39).
From one Prince to another, thank you sir. Continue the effort.
Hydaspes or bust!
I like reavers too! Hard to snipe with cannons and very fast. If I ever get some painted I might give them a try, though probably (at this stage) only in larger point games as I have such a hard time getting everything I want in as it is that, if I added a new unit to the mix, I'd probably go totally mad.Oberon wrote:I have been toying with opening up some points to use 2 mages, high magic, instead of the lvl four and see how that works after reading Swordmasters and Giladis' battle reports of late, but I like the way my list runs ATM. The changes I am going to try in our winter league is cutting the swordmasters down to 2 units of 5 and adding 5 reavers. I really like how Swordmaster has used them to open up huge maneuver traps and pressure on warmachines.
With regard to protecting the archmage as a standalone aim, I pretty much agree with you, Oberon: I can protect the archmage just fine by deploying and moving him properly. But to focus only on this is to forget Warhammer's law of unintended consequences! Although I'm not 100% sold on the Robe (to take it I'd probably have to lose the chariot), here are some of the major plus points of this unique item.Oberon wrote:I really think it's unecessary to further protect your archmage with equipment like the robe. After playing a number of games with a very similar list and losing my archmage several times, but still winning, I conclude he's not essential to victory. He does make that path much easier. Lore of life on a naked archmage does seem to be one of the better lores to take, because of the lore attribute alone.
Bingo!Elithmar of Lothern wrote:I guess you're going more shooty.