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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:12 am 
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Jimmy wrote:
Seredain you wouldn't entertain the idea of dropping a rank off the spearelves to fit the banner in somehow? In saying that have you ever lost the spear elf unit in a game or how close have you come to losing them? I know a lot of people tend to ignore them as they're only strength 3 however it's the volume of attacks that help them take te enemy down.

No can do, amigo!

Minimum core at 2500 points is 625 - and I've spent exactly 625 on my core choices. Trust me, if it was a question of losing 5 spears for the Banner of Sorcery, they'd be out in a flash!

I really love the 35-man unit, actually. Hard to earn points off and can chuck out lots of attacks turn after turn. Makes an excellent hinge for the attacking units in my army and pairs up really nicely with the dragon princes, who enjoy charging in on the flank. It's also the only unit I have specifically designed for taking out massed cheap infantry. I know that lots of people complain that 'that's all spears can do' but, really, that's exactly what I need them for since every other unit in my army is, individually, better suited for taking on smaller, tougher opponents. A big block of spears is the perfect companion to small elite units, I reckon.

SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
The beautiful thing about the tiranoc (other than speed) is that, if you do have to throw it away, you won't lose any sleep over it.

I've found this with chariot-mounted characters. Opponents fixate on killing the 85pt chariot, not the far more expensive passenger.


It's funny isn't it? Maybe it's the impressive model. And, you might just roll those 6 hits when you charge... Paranoia runs quite high about that.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:38 am 
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You know as soon as I wrote that I thought about it and worked out it would be a core percentage thing!

Let's talk a bit about deployment if you don't mind Seredain.

Obviously you position your shooting units to take out enemy shooting and fast cav, so you tend to then anchor a point with your infantry and advance the cavs + chariots up a flank? Obviously a lot of this depends on the opponent and how they deploy as well but for a rough plan would you care to share?

The more I think about it I really love the look of your list and I also have another question if you don't mind?

Would you consider dropping the scroll for the silver wand? I know it's a bit of a chink in the magic defence however (especially with lore of life) I can't help but feel a bit naked with only 4 spells. Knowing you're going to roll 5 dice you can really bank on the doubles and it allows you to have 4 spells to cast (excluding thrones) rather than 3 (excluding thrones).

Well that's enough from me for a bit until I at least make a list and see how I go using the same principals. Thanks for the inspiration as I'd recently lost my interest in gaming with High Elves for a little but it's a quality post like this that pulls me right back into the game.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:16 pm 
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Jimmy thanks for the enthusiasm! If you get an army you like and learn to play with some interesting tactics then High Elves really have a lot to offer.

Jimmy wrote:
Would you consider dropping the scroll for the silver wand?

Yeah I've thought long and hard about the silver wand. The second draft of this list had Silver Wand (only) on the Archmage and Banner of the World Dragon on the BsB. I took out the latter because the BsB was just too vulnerable (3+ save) to be a versatile combat character (he could never leave the helms and return attacks were always a worry). Since I'd ditched the only magic defence I had, I felt I had to take a scroll to make up the balance. Scrolls are better in 8th than they were in 7th, since power dice are harder to come by. As for spell selections, that's also better in 8th than it was in 7th, since you get to choose a spell when you roll for the same one twice. With 4 dice the odds are ok- not bad enough for me to feel comfortable with losing my only serious piece of magic defence.

Jimmy wrote:
Let's talk a bit about deployment if you don't mind Seredain.

Obviously you position your shooting units to take out enemy shooting and fast cav, so you tend to then anchor a point with your infantry and advance the cavs + chariots up a flank? Obviously a lot of this depends on the opponent and how they deploy as well but for a rough plan would you care to share?

Deploying the Cavalry Prince List

As you say, my deployment will depend mostly on which enemy army I'm facing. However, I've provided an example below of a deployment which I used in my last game against my most regular opponent- who plays Lizardmen. He's got quite a powerful list with tough saurus blocks and a wide variety of dangerous supporting units and a very powerful magic phase. My tasks are to weather his magic, remove his stegadon and skirmishers and then surround and crush his core blocks.

Here's the map of how he and I deployed, with some notes below explaining the rules I was trying to follow. Characters are marked in red: Prince = 'P', BsB = 'B' and the archmage is with the archers. The Lizardmen characters are (left to right), Saurus BsB, Slann and Lvl 2 Skink Priest on an Engine of the Gods.
Image


So, here we go.

1: Have a Plan

What is your army good at? What units are dangerous in his army and which units do you intend to use to take them out? Think about this and make a decision on a framework for your plan before you place your first unit. Then, once you start deploying, be ready to adapt it. :)

For the deployment above, the plan is to play defensive with the main body of the army while inflicting damage in the early turns with missile fire and cavalry/chariot/white lion charges on the flanks. My main attack will be on the right flank, with my Prince's bodyguard helms leading the charge, with the white lions and chariot in support. Then I'll take my attacking wing into his centre once it's within charge range of my swordmasters, who'll join the party by Turn 3 or 4. The steadfast spearelves will cover my defensive refused flank and hold while I'm crushing the Lizardman left. The right-hand archers and repeaters will apply themselves initially to weakening the units targeted by my attacking wing, before fending off the Lizardmen support units to protect my centre. The dragon princes will work in conjunction with the archers on the left to rout the terradons and skirmishers opposite before running over the salamanders. By Turn 5 they'll hopefully be in a position to join any combat my spears find themselves in.

Every deployment I make will have this plan in mind- this way no deployment is wasted.

2: Order of Deployment- Confusing Your Opponent

If the first rule of deployment is to Have a Plan, the second rule is to Keep Your Opponent Guessing.

Firstly, you obviously don't want your opponent to know exactly what you've decided to do and, secondly, you want to try and force deployment errors on his part. I've labelled some of my deployment drops 1 to 7 to give you an idea as to my deployment order and how I try and throw my opponent off. The un-numbered units are those I deploy last, since, in this battle, they form he backbone of my attack.

So, deploying the archers (1) and repeaters (2) gives nothing away: they could be forming a central fire base or covering a defensive flank. In any case, deploying your repeaters fairly centrally is a good way, against this Lizard army, to cover most of the board and provide plenty of targets (I'm not looking for flank shots against cavalry here). Likewise the eagle deployment (3) is hard for my opponent to decipher, since he could either be running disruption for a defensive flank or providing cover for an attack.

The spearelves (4) actually make a lovely early deployment if you put them centrally. Again, your opponent will find it difficult to decide what's going on: they could be forming the centre of your battle line or acting as a pivot for either flank. Since they're in the middle, figuring out which flank that is will be difficult.

Then the dragon princes (5). In the battle I've represented above, my opponent figured they were going to run with my helms and form a powerful attacking flank, so he countered with the saurus spears next turn. In fact,as discussed, I'll be using them to run harassment on his skirmishers- his spears will therefore find themselves stranded on the wrong side of the field. The Tiranoc chariot (6) is easily re-deployable and so, again, doesn't give my opponent too many clues as to where my most powerful units and combat characters are going.

At this stage of the deployment, I am still completely free to place my elites and helms to either the left or the right of the spearelves. If I go left I have the DP's packing more punch and if I go right I have the support of the chariot and eagle. In either case, I have an archer unit deployed nearby to allow the archmage to provide support. I'm planning to go right, but my opponent doesn't know that- he reckons I'm going the other way, but he can't be sure since my deployment thus far has been pretty symmetrical.

This puts him in a difficult position. If he puts all his blocks on the far right or left, by Deployment 8 I can go the opposite way with my elite infantry and helms and have the fast units I've already placed redeploy on Turn 1. In either case, I end up with a refused flank anchored by spears, with the soft infantry in the centre of my army covered by missile fire and my elites by Life Magic, with a fast and powerful attacking flank on the far side.

All this guesswork means that my opponent just ends up deploying centrally with his big blocks. This is no surprise for 2 reasons:

1: He doesn't know which way I'm going as discussed above. He has to come to me (because I have the greater range), so he has to cover both options.
2: I know that he is likely to deploy his blocks together to protect the Slann so, once he's placed 2 of them I can guess where the others are going. In principle - take a good loook at the enemy army and you're likely to be able to guess how it'll deploy. Big blocks will likely go together to cover each other's flanks.

In the end I place my helm bus on the right flank. This is bad for him because I'm overlapping his flank there and because the big saurus spear unit is in completely the wrong place. He counters with the stegadon to hold that flank up, but that's fine by me as I want to take it out early. That's what the Prince is for.

Mini-Conclusion

Just in the deployment phase, I've made my opponent's job harder. He's got few units to defend against my attack on his left and his most powerful infantry block has miles to travel to do anything important. Make an effort to confuse your opponent in the deployment phase and you'll find it gives you a huge advantage just like this.

3: Placing Your Units- Refused Flank Army Formation

Since, when building your army, you've already decided how each unit in your army is going to support its fellows, you know not to deploy everything in a single line. As you can see I've deployed a refused flank here to execute The Plan described at point 1- ie so that I can take out his army in sections on my attacking right flank and leave the Lizardmen units on my defensive left with a long way to run.

By deploying deep with many of my units I've prevented my opponent from deploying his scouts in the back of my army (hence the chameleon skinks are stuck out on the far left- they were in a wood). I've also ensured that the terradons can't march behind me on Turn 1 and get out of my line of sight. The repeaters, in deploying centrally, are nicely protected from his support troops by archers and infantry.

I've placed the chariot in such a way that he can do a number of things on Turn 1: he can run alongside the helms, move to either side of the white lions (to support them or the swordmasters), or cut behind the archers to provide support for the spears and/or cover the repeaters from Terradon attack. In this game he'll charge alongside the white lions and silver helms but you'll see that I've kept my options open here and am able to counter unexpected moves by my opponent.

The eagle is able to fly over the knights and do anything he wants, in this case blocking off the stegadon, preventing Burning Alignment going off on my cavalry before my Prince charges out to challenge the priest and neutralise the Engine.

Notice that the Archmage is deployed almost in the centre of the main body of my army, directly behind the elite infantry. This way he's covered by my best fighters but in range of all the major combats so he can buff my units. In this game he'll have to edge back a little to stay away from calming cogitation, but obviously the archers don't mind keeping a safe distance.

As a final point, note that the units on my attacking wing are all placed outside of their targets (as indicated by the arrows): silver helms on skirmishers+ stegadon, white lions and chariot on the kroxigor cohort (with archer support), swordmasters on the temple guard (an excellent match-up for us), and spears covering the flank of the swordmasters. Deploying in this manner forces the Lizardman defensive flank to turn outwards- to rotate to face my right. This gives the infantry on his right (my left) even further to travel before they can have an impact on the game- since his whole army will have to rotate and they're on the outside of the circle. Having his defensive flank rotate to face my right also means that any pursuit moves I make with my attacking units will be cutting into his centre rather than running vertically off the board.

Hope this helps- any questions welcome.

Edits(s): Lots of editing to correct spelling, grammar etc etc...

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Last edited by Seredain on Wed May 23, 2012 11:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:11 pm 
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Here is a 2200 variant of the list with reduced character cost. It loses the magic d of your original 2500 list seredain, which i am unsure about. But it manages a good magic offense adding redundancy in attacks versus certain targets and solutions to some ( T 10 Stank) which might give the 2500 list trouble. It adds an extra deployment drop from the list I posted before which is key in employing a successful weighted flank deployment as you hint is beneficial. The list also adds a few more bodies to the elites to soften the blow of losing life magic support for them. Feel free to comment or not, just thought I'd throw it up here and give the thread a bump.

2200 High Elves

Lords:286

Prince on Barded Elven Steed, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant, Dragon Armour, Shield.

Heroes: 375

Noble on Barded Elven Steed, Battle Standard Bearer, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Amulet of Light, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Shield

Mage, Magic Level 2, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury, Metal Magic

Core: 555

35 Spearmen, Banner, Musician, Gleaming Pendant
10 Archers
10 Archers

Special: 684

8 Silver Helms, Banner, Musician
14 White Lions, Banner, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame
14 White Lions, Banner, Musician, Banner of Sorcery

Rare: 300

Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

With the ring of fury and the silver wand the mage has four spells like an archmage. I am taking metal because with a lvl 2 I have significantly decreased spell selection and life is both situational and requires synergy between multiple spells. Those two factors might leave the mage without a credible offense to put together. The ring of fury gives redundancy in elimination of support and shooting units, while searing doom adds redundancy versus armoured targets and provides a new ranged option capable of hurting some monsters. The other spells are icing on the cake, though I will go for Final Transmutation or Plague of Rust if I roll doubles as I find these most effective.
I haven't had a chance to playtest yet :? . I was supposed to play yesterday but yee old communal gaming table was occupied. Hopefully I can get a game in today irl or on lorenz and post some results.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:30 pm 
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As always Seredain thanks for the in depth reply.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:33 pm 
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Jimmy no problem.

Cythis,

That's an interesting list you've made there...

The question over the magic phase especially is both interesting and difficult! Metal magic is a good call and, as you say, fills a nice niche. The item and banner of Sorcery set up I'm not so sure about... You realise that only another 25 points would get you a level 4 archmage? You'd effectively be exchanging the Banner of Sorcery for +2 to cast and dispel along with the stat upgrades. The archmage would have to be without any items to fit into your lord allowance, however, and that isn't attractive when considering the weakness you picked up on: magic defence.

Your list doesn't have any and that worries me. The problem is the Silver Helm Tank: it's identical to the 2500 version (plus standard) but, since it's in a 2200 list, is proportionally more important. It's a ripe target for enemy spells and you have nothing to stop them. +3 to dispel is good but I wouldn't bank on it. The way you've built an offensive phase is impressive but really you need to worry more about what's good for your prince than for the lvl 2 mage. I'd shove a dispel scroll on him and maybe another defensive item and have him focus on that. Further, I think the mage's limited spell selection (even with your setup), fragility (2 wounds) and likelihood of miscast (metal magic, -2 to cast compared with the AM so you're probably throwing that extra dice...), makes him, in my opinion, a little too unreliable to base an offensive phase on or make the Banner of Sorcery a good investment.

On metal magic. I like the utility of the default spell. The armour and 'blades' spells are also an excellent boost to elves, but they need large units to buff to be really worth casting. You've kept your deployments up in the list well but you'll find it harder to fool opponents since you don't have a powerful striking unit to place that'll really throw him off defensively (namely the DP's). I think the opportunity to buff the archers may be worth losing the extra drop.

You know what? If I were taking metal magic I'd probably put the archers together and have them cover the defensive flank of the army. Then I'd put the mage in there. One of the reasons I took 2 smaller units of archers in my 2500 list was that the archmage needed to go somewhere and I didn't want him in a large unit - too many points to be swallowed by the big spells. With the level 2, that's not a problem and that means you'll have more chance of getting the most out the metal buffs if you roll them. I also think that a unit of archers that size may have finally given Sacred Incense a reason to exist... at long range other missile troops would be hitting them on sixes!

I like the 2nd eagle- makes up for losing the DP's and chariot. I'd probably try and get the chariot back in, however, just to add that bit more punch. That's a judgment call, really.

One final problem... I make your total elite choices 724 points rather than 684. You'll have to find a way around that!

I've done a quick bit of playing around.

2200 High Elves

Prince- B. Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Plucker Pendant - 286
BSB- B. Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Amulet of Light - 190
Mage- Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Metal Magic - 155

36 Spearmen- Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 354
18 Archers - 198

8 Silver Helms- Shields, Musician - 192
14 White Lions- Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 250
14 Swordmasters- Full Command - 240
1 Chariot - 85

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 200
1 Great Eagle - 50

2200 points

Edit: Oh yes I swapped 1 unit of lions round for swordmasters. Probably should have mentioned that. :)


On Metal Magic and Steam Tanks

Further to this and the previous post by Cythis, please see the continuing sequence of posts below for some rumination...

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Last edited by Seredain on Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:39 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:30 am 
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Seredain wrote:
On metal magic. I like the utility of the default spell. The armour and 'blades' spells are also an excellent boost to elves, but they need large units to buff to be really worth casting. You've kept your deployments up in the list well but you'll find it harder to fool opponents since you don't have a powerful striking unit to place that'll really throw him off defensively (namely the DP's). I think the opportunity to buff the archers may be worth losing the extra drop.

I've been taking a long hard look at Metal as an alternative to High for my level 3. Searing Doom is a wonderful spell but I don't like taking a whole extra Mage just to deal with a Stank if one shows up. On the balance though the shooting buff is inferior to Curse IMHO and I prefer Shield to Glittering Robe. Plus defensively High gives you Drain and the RIP PD-drain effect of Flames. Final Transmutation is really good though.

Neither High, Life or RBT seem to have an answer to a Stank though and theirin lies the rub.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:04 pm 
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I agree that arrow attraction is better in most cases because all of your shooting units can benefit from it. Flames check, drain check. In fact against most opponents I reckon High is the better choice for a level 2.

Having said all that, If you've taken a scroll, you have defence at least partially covered and, if the list only has one level 2, it can hardly expect to dominate in the magic phase regardless of lore. Taking metal to give you the potential to chuck 6 dice at something you can't kill might be worth the loss of the High Magic utility spells.

If I wasn't obsessive over steam tanks I'd probably go with High on that mage, in fact. In any case, I won't be swapping out Life from the archmage in the 2500 list. :)

What the hell does that tank do anyway? Can I shove some life-toughened thing infront of it to hold it up or something? Can it be engaged in combat? If it's T10 and armour save 1+ I'll be struggling to get wounds at range...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Taking metal to give you the potential to chuck 6 dice at something you can't kill might be worth the loss of the High Magic utility spells.

Good point. No way would I throw six dice at Searing Doom from my lvl3 to get rid of a Stank. I would from a lvl1 though.

Seredain wrote:
In any case, I won't be swapping Life out of the archmage in the 2500 list.
It's funny how we get attached to builds isn't it? Of course Life is great but Stank is a problem. I'm so taken with the idea of my lvl3 High Seer now that I'm loath to drop him, despite the Stank issue and the damage he does to my Prince build.

Seredain wrote:
What the hell does that tank do anyway? Can I shove some life-toughened thing infront of it to hold it up or something? Can it be engaged in combat? If it's T10 and armour save 1+ I'll be struggling to get wounds at range...

Yeah, maybe you can hold it up for a while. You hit it automatically in combat but the T10 is a sod. It does lots of S6 hits in combat.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:05 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
It's funny how we get attached to builds isn't it? Of course Life is great but Stank is a problem.

I'm not emotionally attached or anything - it's just that Life is too useful for my list in too many ways, especially given my small units and the fact that I can melt hordes with it. I've thought about metal but the miscast protection of life is golden on an expensive archmage, along with all the excellent spells including throne of vines.

SpellArcher wrote:
Yeah, maybe you can hold it up for a while. You hit it automatically in combat but the T10 is a sod. It does lots of S6 hits in combat.

Does it have the armour save as well or just the toughness?

Hmm. I might just shove the spears infront of it and keep toughness and regrowth going off on them. Maybe get the archmage in there on the turn before it hits to get regen up (presumably the tank can't allocate attacks). All those spear hits would have a better chance of wounding than my prince, (who'd take the Str 6 hits well but would almost certainly be put to better use hacking up a unit of knights somewhere). While the spears are slowly grinding away I can concentrate all my very killy elves on ripping apart the rest of his army. On consideration bolt throwers, too, are probably best used for clearing out humans rather than trying to nail the tank. I can probably work around it.

Does the tank get those St6 hits as impact hits on the charge or in every round of combat?

Ah, and aren't we forgetting Dwellers Below? Wouldn't the tank automatically fail a strength test?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:16 pm 
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It generates steam points each turn (declare number of steam points, roll a D6, total has to be less than W or it overheats and takes a wound)

Each steam point can make it move 3", fire it's weapons, or do D3 impact hits. If something charges it that does impact hits, then the impact hits are 'reflected' back at that unit.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Does it have the armour save as well

Yep.

Seredain wrote:
I might just shove the spears infront of it and keep toughness and regrowth going off on them

Could be good. I guess you'd have to deploy them last, as if I were an Empire player I'd see HE without a Lore I was afraid of and try to cause mischief with the Stank.

Seredain wrote:
Bolt throwers, too, are probably best used for clearing out humans rather than trying to nail the tank

Yep. They're all I've got but you have to get lucky.

Seredain wrote:
I can probably work around it.

Guess so. It just annoys me there isn't a cleaner counter.

Seredain wrote:
Ah, aren't we forgetting Dwellers Below? Wouldn't the tank automatically fail a strength test?

There's a bit in the army book about passing characteristic tests automatically. May have been FAQ'd out but then it's S6 and it's a chariot. They don't have the war machine auto-fail do they?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:31 pm 
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Thatguyoverthere wrote:
It generates steam points each turn (declare number of steam points, roll a D6, total has to be less than W or it overheats and takes a wound).

Each steam point can make it move 3", fire it's weapons, or do D3 impact hits. If something charges it that does impact hits, then the impact hits are 'reflected' back at that unit.

Thank you.

Huh, I suppose only a couple of wounds would start to put it under real pressure, then. I also suppose it's unbreakable?

SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
Ah, aren't we forgetting Dwellers Below? Wouldn't the tank automatically fail a strength test?

There's a bit in the army book about passing characteristic tests automatically. May have been FAQ'd out but then it's S6 and it's a chariot. They don't have the war machine auto-fail do they?

I'd hope they do! If that isn't a war machine I don't know what is. Hmm. Maybe their thinking is that it could drive away from the dwellers where other war machines couldn't. If so, it's back to good 'ol life-boosted spears.

Sounds like a pain in the arse but we don't always need a hard counter. I'll stack my other troops against the empire's any day. ;) If we have to kill the rest his army then I'm happy to hold the tank at bay. At least I'm as unlikely to lose points for the spears as he is for the tank. I'd be surprised if it chewed through all them with the archmage helping out.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Huh, I suppose only a couple of wounds would start to put it under real pressure, then. I also suppose it's unbreakable?

Yes and yes.

Seredain wrote:
If that isn't a war machine I don't know what is.

It used to be. I'm not sure why they upped the T to 10 and made it vulnerable to magic. It's so all or nothing now.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Double Post.

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Last edited by Baleanoon on Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:12 pm 
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I've been playing a list very similar to yours actually its only 2200.

Prince
Armour of silvered steel, radiant gem
Great weapon
Beast

Archmage
Level 4
silverwand
elven steed
Lore of shadow

Noble
BSB
AofC, Dawn stone
Great weapon

20 Seagaurd
Shields, Musician, standards

20 Seagaurd
Shields, Musician, standards

17 White Lions
Full command
BofS

9 Silver Helms
Musician

5 Dragon Princes
Musician Standard
Banner of Eternal Flame

2x RBT

1 eagle

I've since upped it for tourney play swapping my archmage and prince for teclis, but I've found shadow to be the best lore for a combined arms approach. Playing with the opponents stats to make your troops more effective is probably the best use of our S3. Pit and pendulum deal with monsters, and steam tanks. The only problems I've had are extreme range artillery. Stone throwers and the like, but the offensive section princes and helms generally make short work of support units. They give 20 s5 attacks, and 10 s3 attacks when the combo charge. I use the combination of withering and cav to kill monsters without regen, and pit to kill the ones with regen.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:37 pm 
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The 9 Helms without a character are a slightly unusual pick Baleanoon.

What's the thinking behind them?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:16 am 
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The steam tank is certainly an intimidating prospect for us however I think you only really need to chip 3 wounds off it to bascially put it out of the game.

It's never locked in combat so it can just cruise off whenever it wants and do more impact hits.

I think the best bet is to either ignore it (which I don't think is very realistic), or concentrate some fire on it and chip those wounds off. Secondly though getting the toughness buff off on a unit that is about to hit the tank is a great idea.

I was sure when the FAQ's came out it was immune to pit of shades however then it was ammended to say it auto fails initiative tests but I'm not sure about other spells. I would think it would suffer from dwellers but with S6 I'd rather pour some arrows into it and use that spell to take out large units of state troops and greatswords.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:25 am 
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The problem with shooting the Stank is that even if we hit, there's only a 1-in-6 chance of wounding and then a 1-in-6 chance of bowfire getting past the AS. Which is only 1-in-36 per hit, not very good.

I've looked at Cursing it (to at least make sure we hit) and then single bolting it. Still need a wretched 6 to wound it but at least it doesn't get the AS. So with a couple of RBT I would have slightly less than a 1-in-3 per turn of putting D3 wounds on it. Still not inspiring but maybe worth a try. The spell that gives you +1 to wound might be a goer but it only works on a single RBT.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:18 pm 
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I've been ruminating over this quite a bit (I'm off work sick- tonsillitis is a bitch but it has its advantages). Perhaps what every all-comers High Elf list needs is the following:

Mage- Level 1, Metal Magic, Staff of Solidity.

Basically he's a 5 or 6 dice Searing Doom delivery system designed for killing stanks, hydras, knights, treemen, HPA's* (this is an important point- do HPA's have armour saves??), for just over the price of a bolt thrower. The only problem I see is that you'd really need the Banner of Sorcery to leave the archmage with something to do after you've chucked those 6 dice.

I could get this guy into my list without the BoS if I just lost a bolt thrower and the dispel scroll (risky). I could have the whole shebang if I lost the eagle as well. If I put BoS on the white Lions (therefore losing the Banner of Flame), that would give me the following magic phase:

Archmage- Lvl 4, Silver Wand, Life Magic
Mage- Lvl 1, Staff of Solidity, Metal Magic
Banner of Sorcery

A classically powerful High Elf phase with excellent spell selection and with both casters having access to miscast-protection. I suppose I could make up for the loss of the repeater slightly by losing a few spears and taking a few more archers (effectively treating the remaining one as a weapon-platform working in conjunction with an archer squad), but the loss of the eagle as well? I don't think that's wise. Boosting the magic phase to that level of awesomeness is tempting, but I'd lose a lot of support abilities that can't be dispelled...

As I see it, the best alternative would be to lose the following: 2 x swordmasters, WL guardian, WL musician, BsB shield. That's 50 points exactly. That is quite tempting, actually, although I'd miss flaming attacks on the White Lions... Something to ponder, I guess. What do you think?


Baleanoon,

That's an interesting list. I presume the archmage rides with the helms? They would certainly make a decent bodyguard though, since the AM lacks any protection, I'd worry about getting them into combat. As SpellArcher suggests, I'd look at shoving a combat character in there to get the best out of them. I like the white lions unit with BsB - it's an ideal size I reckon and it'll kick serious arse with the character there. Did you have any success with this list without Teclis? Also, would you mind editing out the double post, please?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
I'm off work sick- tonsillitis is a bitch but it has its advantages

Watch out old son. I had it, recovered, then caught chickenpox!

I too have pondered the lvl1 Metal Mage but with a scroll. Still cheap and good magic cover. To be honest if he immolates himself casting IF Searing Doom on a Stank I can live with that. Terrible fluff-wise but it's a harsh game Warhammer.

The point is that 2D6 automatic wounds will cripple the Stank unless you're very unlucky and it costs 300pts at the end of the day. Points denial and all that but that's a lot of killing power you've removed from the Empire player's arsenal.

No, Abominations don't have an AS, which at least lets you shoot them up easier. I also think it's not such a problem if your Archmage has a quiet phase as those 6 dice are big, big trouble for the panzer.

I'd never even consider dropping your Eagle and I've always thought that Reapeaters work best in pairs, though you might drop one I guess. Thing is though, does this new Mage fit? I'm not at all sure he does in my army at least and despite my words above I love my characters.

I think if a list has a Lore with a shooting buff you try to get it off on the Stank. If you do, you then hit it with all the shooting you have, even the bows. If not, you shoot other stuff that turn, unless you're desperate. Don't think Life does? It does at least have Flesh to Stone and Regrowth as mentioned.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
As I see it, the best alternative would be to lose the following: 2 x swordmasters, WL guardian, WL musician, BsB shield. That's 50 points exactly. That is quite tempting, actually, although I'd miss flaming attacks on the White Lions... Something to ponder, I guess. What do you think?

But, in the end, what were they taking out with the flaming attacks? Probably the same stuff that now the mage would be tasked to do as you listed i.e. tank, hydra, etc. I would look at the change as breaking even on that point and not a loss.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:33 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
I'm off work sick- tonsillitis is a bitch but it has its advantages

Watch out old son. I had it, recovered, then caught chickenpox!

No problems there- I had the pox a long time ago. Chicken pox, I mean.

SpellArcher wrote:
I too have pondered the lvl1 Metal Mage but with a scroll. Still cheap and good magic cover. To be honest if he immolates himself casting IF Searing Doom on a Stank I can live with that. Terrible fluff-wise but it's a harsh game Warhammer.

That is well heartless. And what if he immolates your whole magic phase while he's blowing his face off? Staff of Solidity is lovely insurance if you know this guy is going to be chucking that many dice. Since he's designed to do so I think it's probably worth the 20 points.

SpellArcher wrote:
I also think it's not such a problem if your Archmage has a quiet phase as those 6 dice are big, big trouble for the panzer.

That's a good point.

SpellArcher wrote:
I'd never even consider dropping your Eagle and I've always thought that Reapeaters work best in pairs, though you might drop one I guess. Thing is though, does this new Mage fit? I'm not at all sure he does in my army at least and despite my words above I love my characters.

Points one and two are both totally correct as far as I'm concerned. As for point three, I have it covered. The Level 1 mage is Acheron, Loremaster Lecalion's youngest acolyte (he's only about 30) and something of a mischief maker. He's been around since the beginning and, traditionally, has always been equipped with something aggressive and reckless (like the Ring of Fury back in the days where it died on a roll of 1). So, being a channelling Metal Mage of Death is entirely appropriate to his character.

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Seredain wrote:
As I see it, the best alternative would be to lose the following: 2 x swordmasters, WL guardian, WL musician, BsB shield. That's 50 points exactly. That is quite tempting, actually, although I'd miss flaming attacks on the White Lions... Something to ponder, I guess. What do you think?

But, in the end, what were they taking out with the flaming attacks? Probably the same stuff that now the mage would be tasked to do as you listed i.e. tank, hydra, etc. I would look at the change as breaking even on that point and not a loss.

As discussed, The Abomination doesn't have an armour save, so Searing Doom would be useless and I'd probably struggle to take it down without dedicating all of my shooting (probably needed for weapons teams) and/or the Prince to it.

The banner is also guaranteed to work every turn, whereas Searing Doom can be dispelled. Further, I can have my BsB join the white lions and benefit from the flaming goodness. Then there are the fear-causing qualities against cavalry and beasts... basically there are lots of reasons for white lions wanting to hold on to a 10 point banner like that.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:00 am 
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Seredain wrote:
Bolt Thrower wrote:
Seredain wrote:
As I see it, the best alternative would be to lose the following: 2 x swordmasters, WL guardian, WL musician, BsB shield. That's 50 points exactly. That is quite tempting, actually, although I'd miss flaming attacks on the White Lions... Something to ponder, I guess. What do you think?

But, in the end, what were they taking out with the flaming attacks? Probably the same stuff that now the mage would be tasked to do as you listed i.e. tank, hydra, etc. I would look at the change as breaking even on that point and not a loss.

As discussed, The Abomination doesn't have an armour save, so Searing Doom would be useless and I'd probably struggle to take it down without dedicating all of my shooting (probably needed for weapons teams) and/or the Prince to it.

The banner is also guaranteed to work every turn, whereas Searing Doom can be dispelled. Further, I can have my BsB join the white lions and benefit from the flaming goodness. Then there are the fear-causing qualities against cavalry and beasts... basically there are lots of reasons for white lions wanting to hold on to a 10 point banner like that.

I guess my point of view may be skewed by my local scene. Rarely would the cause fear part of flaming attacks come into play in my neighborhood. As for the Abomination, in my experience it always sounds worse than it actually is. I've never negated its regen and have killed it pretty reliably with just spears and a chariot. T5 doesn't seem as scary as T6. I think that you have the tools in your list already to take it down with the DP's, the chariot and two heavy hitting infantry units.

Overall, I still see Searing Doom having a greater positive impact for you across more opponents than the banner of eternal flame.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:38 pm 
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Good point. Of course if I'm shooting the abomination then I'm not shooting a bunch of other stuff I'd like dead, like skaven weapon teams, but I suppose T5 isn't that scary and on reflection there's plenty in my list to kill it, as you say.

The thing about having fire on the White Lions isn't so much that they cause fear tests (although think of the potential impact if you're receiving a charge from human knights with Ld 7), but that they don't need to take tests themselves vs things like Chaos knights. It means I can deploy them defensively on the far flank from my prince and not have to worry about their failing a Ld8 test, not killing very many knights and then being butchered in reply. WS1 is not something you want to happen to your lions!

In any case, if I were going for the extra mage I think I'd want the Banner of Sorcery as well to make sure I had enough dice to play with and that's about 170 points worth of stuff I don't want to lose from the list. I could probably squeeze in the Lvl 1 with Jewel of the Dusk as a compromise, but even so I think the 2 repeaters are worth holding onto and are going to be useful against more armies than the Lvl 1 without BoS.

And then, having thought about the magic phase for a bit, I think it's really a question of diminishing returns in 8th. Buy one mage and you get to tap into 2D6 power dice per turn. Great. I then spend 115 points on getting one extra dice and one extra spell? That doesn't seem very economical. A better use of points would probably be to keep the repeater, swap the bladelord for a standard on the swordmasters and lose the 2 swordmasters, white lion guardian+musician and BsB shield, and get in the Banner of Sorcery for my archmage. Gives me a significantly more powerful phase for relatively few points and I'd just live without the Lore of Metal.

The problems are that I've lost between 3 and 4 attacks out the swords, depending on how I field them (that's maybe 3 kills in the combat phase), and that they've also become both more fragile and more expensive. The WL's have lost a strength 6 attack and free reforms and I've also lost the ability to challenge out characters from both of my elite infantry units. The BsB's shield is a small but, against stand-and-shoot crossbows, real consideration. On the plus side, I'd have an extra standard bearer for Blood and Glory.

So, with this in mind the question is, 'which would you rather have':

14 Swordmasters- Bladelord
12 White Lions- Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
Shield on Battle Standard Bearer

or

12 Swordmasters- Standard, Banner of Sorcery
12 White Lions- Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame?


There is good news, however. There's a Fantasy campaign starting up at my local gaming club, based on the Mighty Empires tile sets. Armies are set at 2500 (if everything's painted- 2250 if not), but, if you conquer enough territories, can go up to 2850. So, all I have to do is win enough games and I can have it all. :)

Selection of opposition is looking pretty interesting. So far we've got Lizardmen x 2, Dwarfs, Daemons x 2, Skaven, Empire, Orcs and Vampires.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Seredain: Earlier on this page when talking about your game agaisnt the lizzis, that the match up you really wanted was, the SM against his TG, why would that be, yup, I know you could toast a good few of them, but as you are only 14, with 21 attacks, you are going to wound on avg 12 of them, on which they have a 5+ save, so you are reasonable going to kill, 8/9 of them, so surely after they hit back, you are going to lose in a protracted cc, also as they are immune to psy.

But have been following your thread, with lots of interest.

How have 12 WL been fairing for you, because they seem so small a unit to a) either make much damage, or b) take much damage.

Have you played some more games, would be nice to see some more reports from you.

You have in any case brought a smile back on my face about the HE, good to know they are doing well somewhere:-)

I found it very hard to make an army I was satisfied with, but think that has been many peoples problems faced with 8th.

Cheers any way

polle


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:28 am 
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mcpolle wrote:
Seredain: Earlier on this page when talking about your game agaisnt the lizzis, that the match up you really wanted was, the SM against his TG, why would that be, yup, I know you could toast a good few of them, but as you are only 14, with 21 attacks, you are going to wound on avg 12 of them, on which they have a 5+ save, so you are reasonable going to kill, 8/9 of them, so surely after they hit back, you are going to lose in a protracted cc, also as they are immune to psy.

Yeah that's a tough battle with the SM alone. One thing though is that I think the TG would only have a 6+ save since they cannot use their shields in close combat as they must always use their halberds now because of the special weapons rule in the BRB.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:38 pm 
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I should think Life buffs come into play here.

This raises another issue that's troubling me.

How do you keep a lid on the Slann?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:15 am 
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Perfect timing for these particular questions, chaps, since I played a very hard-fought game against the Lizards yesterday which was pretty much defined by my struggle to keep a lid on the Slann. And grind down his temple guard. A fantastic game all-round and I'll do a report when I get home to Bristol.

The good news is that I remembered the camera this time. The bad news is that the batteries were dead, so once again no pictures. :(

If I can find the time I'll at least get the army back on it's shelf and take a picture of them, if only because it's about time I got a picture of them up for this thread.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:09 pm 
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looking forward to this :-)

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