Ulthuan

Seredain wrote:Chaps I'm off to America now for a couple of weeks, so expect some radio silence. Campaign Round 2 should commence upon my return, so expect another report in about 3 weeks or so.

Which part and are you bringing your army to prey on enemies across the pond?

Has anyone decided to upgrade to DP's? I understand that the main reason that many of us have gone with SH's is the point cost, but when I look at what opens up it just seems like so much better of a choice to go with DP's. For 7ppm, you get

+1 attack from front models (not much I know but every attack adds up)
2+ WS vs flaming weapons
Access to magical items on champion (skeinsliver, fireball ring, terror mask a couple more options)
Access to magical banner's (Elyrian Banner is VERY good for a Cavalry Bus). Deploy behind a forest, swamp anything and watch as your oppenent realizes that what he thought would be 3 turns to deal with your bus just turns into 1 as you walk right over it.

All I all I believe those points are so well spent.

grix wrote:Has anyone decided to upgrade to DP's? I understand that the main reason that many of us have gone with SH's is the point cost, but when I look at what opens up it just seems like so much better of a choice to go with DP's.

Grix,

I've thought about this too, but in the end, as far as Seredain's list goes, he's right. You're talking 56 points to upgrade the bus to DPs. As tight as the list is, where do you sacrifice those points (eagle and some thing else or 4 SM/WLs?). At the most basic level you are giving up a lot for 3 extra attacks (and the 2++ save vs Flame/Breath). Your other points are valid but adding the standard bearer, magical banner, and magic item on the champ (not to mention the cost of the champ himself) add up quickly as to what else in the army you would have to sacrifice. Judging by my reading, his list is pretty tight point wise and it would change how it works pretty dramatically by switching to DPs.

I'm not saying you are wrong (I have been pretty much arm chair general since 6th edition having only six 7th edition games, and none in 8th) but he has demonstrated success in how his list works in detail. I'd be curious to see how an alternate list including a DP bus works for you.

Very very true, I guess I was coming from a higher point lever pov. Which does not help here. We are playing 3k in prep for Ard Boyz. When I get home I will look into it a bit more.

Hi All!

I've been visiting this forum for a while now, reading up on tactics and stuff, and this really caught my eye. Not to exhaust the matter, but this thread is great. In short, everything I would like to say has already been said. Basically, this thread made me join Ulthuan and, Seredain, you're tops

Anyway. Down to business. I had initially had a similar idea to grix, since I've never really been a fan of Silver helms - although this thread has given me ideas

I was thinking about a similar set up, mainly a bus of DP's. However, I was thinking, since the DP's have slightly more hitting power, that the BSB might be better off with, say, the unit of spears (unfortunately this would mean keeping him on foot, although it would mean he would stay with the majority of the other footslogging forces). I was also thinking about dropping the level 4 to 2 level 2/1's to keep up a sufficient amount of magic defence/offence. (probably with high magic and life/shadow/metal). I'm not sure how this would work, and from what you guys have said I know the pros of going with silver helms, I just LOVE DP's, always have. Regardless, I'd probably avoid the upgrades for the unit that grix was talking about. It would be great if you guys could offer some insights / tell me what a bad idea this is

Grix: I think if we ask enough about DP'S, eventually we might even convince Seredain :p

Cython wrote:However, I was thinking, since the DP's have slightly more hitting power, that the BSB might be better off with, say, the unit of spears (unfortunately this would mean keeping him on foot, although it would mean he would stay with the majority of the other footslogging forces).

Have you seen Swordmaster's thread on this forum? He began with Seredain's list and has made this change. Obviously you lose slightly on the Bus (especially in extended combats) but you steady the Spears and probably get better re-roll coverage.

Keeping in mind as well that the Silverhelms are more of a delivery system for the characters whereas a DP bus that size is more of a unit of it's own formidiable power.

No, I haven't seen the thread by Swordmaster. I guess I should read up on that then. I wouldn't be too fussed. One issue I thought that seredain might have is simply a little bit of "all your eggs in one basket", what with the prince and noble in the same unit. I haven't used it personally so he would obviously know a lot better than I about whether or not that is/can become a problem for him.

@Cython
There is not much in my army list topic that can add to whatever has been already said here. I tried Seredain's army a few times, I like it, but at the same time I need to make it work better for myself, as I could not use some of the elements properly yet.

The same goes here. Use his very good advice but search for your own way. Silver Helms are nice unit and despite being delivery system they still add a few wounds on their own. But no one would argue that Dragon Princes are better and often just a points cost is the barrier for not including them. Even more so for small units. 5 naked Dragon Princes are far better than 5 naked Silver Helms and are worth paying that little extra points.

As to having all eggs in one basket in my games I was not worried about it. Big unit of DP with one lord/hero character in it will be as good magnet as Silver Helms with a Prince and BSB. My concern was that more often than I liked I lost my units due to unlucky panic test which could have been easily overcomed if BSB was in range. Gleaming Pennat helped enornmously but it worked only once and only for Spearelves. If you run multiple small units the chances one of them is going to fail panic test are greater. And it is also more difficult to keep them close to BSB if he is riding with cavalry hammer.

I am yet to see if my new version is going to suit me any better but I am willing to try it anyway

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:5 naked Dragon Princes are far better than 5 naked Silver Helms and are worth paying that little extra points.

I understand the logic but I am finding the Helms very useful so far. They are cheap and semi-disposable and perfect for running up a flank. They have the punch to sweep away enemy light units and the speed to get to war machines.

I'm with you on the BSB, when I don't have him fairly central I regret it.

ok so first the fawning ...fantastic thread I've read it all over the lastcouple of days and I have gotten some great ideas it made me log into my account for the 1st time in about 5 years. I was one of those who read the new rule book and thought oh bugger its all gonna be big blocks of infantry now my cavalry are gonna sit on the shelf but no longer thank you.
Now the question have you considered running you helmbus at 10 strong plus 2 characters meaning yoyr able to sustain a casualty or 2 before you cannot disrupt the opponents ranks seems lie for about extra 46 pts (w/shields) you can swing a combat 3 points in your direction before you even land a blow. Any thoughts??

@Swordmaster
I see where you're coming from. Essentially it's however Seredain's tactics give us inspiration to play the game a specific way. I'll see how the DP's go. Probably have to change it up a bit but we'll see.

@Steverlion
I guess the only problem with doing that is it's only a few points short of upgrading the unit to DP's, and as said above, this causes more than enough havoc list-writing wise. I think it would come down the fact that it's 46 points that have already been used elsewhere, and whether or not losing something else to gain a bit of redundancy in the helm bus is worth it... And if you play it right, keep the knights away from fairly heavy shooting and magic, they probably won't need the extra wounds. IMO you'd be better off with the helms as it is.

In my experience the cavalry bus doesn`t work that well. I used it at a tournament and felt it lacked hitting and staying power. I also lost some of it`s mobility since I had to have the prince close to my other units (to give them LD 10). I should have won three games, but since I lost my silver helm bus the games were draws instead. Ofcourse I might have used it poorly, but I felt that it was a very weak unit. I`m not trying to rain on your parade here, Seredain. I`m just sharing my experience.

Bonsoir everyone! (speaking from australia it is currently 2304)

Just finished reading through these mammoth 13 pages of tactica and i enjoyed it thoroughly, it is good to see a high elf army that isn't based around teclis or white lion hordes, like the many that are on show down under.

For those who don't know I play the Empire, and after reading this tactica, I have started to think about how to play this style of army with squishy, clumsy humans as everyone here calls them.

It is quite amazing what seredain has done with his force, several months ago I decided to write up a list that had a focused on knights. I copied the style on the tuetonic knights and went from there. a unit of fifteen, with a templar grand master, always strike first +1 strength blade and a 1+ armour save with one of my favourite ever items, the laurels of victory(each wound caused in combat counts as double for combat res).

I've had this bad boy run with a bsb and arch lector for challenges would run in the same unit, which was boosted to a tremendous 18 models and would run down a flank very much like the silver helm bus and destroy whatever was in front of it. on my other flank was another unit of ten knights with greatswords. holding my centre was 40 missile infantry and 80 state troops, normally spears and halberds and supporting them all were two cannons, warrior priests and a lvl 2 fire wizard. funnily enough, i seem to pull off double envelopements all the time against my mates skaven army(though his is nowhere near as bad as some other builds) but his stormvermin always have a nasty surprise with causing terror, having 4 characters in them and having the -1 armour banner, all the while haveing a bsb with a banner that lowers your ld by one, combined with another item that lowers it again by one and forces you to reroll a ld test you have passed. but it hasnt stopped me from getting four units surrround it in combat twice.

But i digress. I wanted to try an empire version of this list, with knights and greatswordsmen, cannons, archers or crossbows and a templar master with the giants blade and something else, possibly a 1+ rr armour save.

what do you think about it ? could it be done on the same level? or would i need to play elves to get the proper effect?

Prince Caspian wrote:Bonsoir everyone! (speaking from australia it is currently 2304)

Just finished reading through these mammoth 13 pages of tactica and i enjoyed it thoroughly, it is good to see a high elf army that isn't based around teclis or white lion hordes, like the many that are on show down under.

Hmm...curious. How do white lion hordes win you games?

Coeyan wrote:Hmm...curious. How do white lion hordes win you games?

@Coeyan, I wouldn't know, all that I know is that many of the fantasy tourneys down south have been having elf armies with white lion hordes of 30+. And also it seems every high elf army has teclis leading it.

Well there is one guy near where I live, he takes an archmage and 3 tiranoc chariots and 3 white lion chariots.(2500)
I'm thinking of playing him with my empire army based off of what Seredain has done with his silver helms but take three cannons and blow half his heavy hitters away in one turn.
But then it all depends on what I can fit into my army too... I rarely take hordes in 2500 anymore, as, like many of you, I have found them far too unwieldy to be of any use, especially against anything faster than I am(which is pretty much everything).

Also, I have another question for Seredain when or if he comes back. There is a Warriors player where I am, his army consists of 45+chaos warriors, a level 4 tzeentch wizard, some knights and two warshrines in 2500. His warriors have with them a bsb and the unit has the rapturous standard(any double or one 1 rolled for a break test is insane courage).

With his buffs from his warshrines, it basically makes this army invincible, his wizard able to cast gateway while anything that engages this mammoth block of warriors gets grond down turn after turn as his armour/tzeentch ward save/warshrine buffs/rapturous standard, this unit has never died in a game, and I was wondering, how would any of you deal with this unit of stupidity?

Prince Caspian

dwellers is pretty awesome in that it would kill a third of the unit every time you cast it. if i knew i was facing this list i would take a lvl4 with life and silver wand + whatever, and a lvl 2 shadow with seerstaff. cast the shadow spell that lowers S by D3 then cast dwellers. this should wipe out 2/3 of the unit, and hopefully his BSB and spell caster. then hit them with your cavalry and white lions. or just cast dwellers and avoid the unit, eventually you will kill a character or two and win

Heeeeere's Johnny!

Well, I'm back. Slightly fatter (thank you Wendy's) and jet-lagged to Hell, but very impressed by the South of the USA. Very friendly people, good live music, interesting weather (tornadoes anyone?) and good drinks. Excepting "lite" beer, which should be damned forever. Met a nice Kentuckian called Joe who told me the following: "What's the similarity between lite beer and having sex in a canoe?
They're both f*cking close to water."

Funny, and very true.

Bolt Thrower wrote:...are you bringing your army to prey on enemies across the pond?

I didn't take the army, no. Girlfriend would've had me walking home! It was only two weeks - not exactly long enough for High Elf cold turkey. And then, on the sly, I did take the odd look at some of the excellent battle reports and army list development threads that have been cropping up. I'll have a proper look through in due course now that I'm back, but it seemed to me that there's some really good stuff been going on!

Cython wrote: Anyway. Down to business. I had initially had a similar idea to grix, since I've never really been a fan of Silver helms - although this thread has given me ideas

... I think if we ask enough about DP'S, eventually we might even convince Seredain :p

Cython,

Thanks for the comments! You and Grix will have no trouble convincing me that a DP bus can be a powerful tool but, at 2000 to 2500 points, it's a big points investment if you're also adding characters to the unit. 8 dragon princes with Full Command, items, Prince and BSB would be a mighty unit indeed, but the rest of your army will suffer from the amount of points you've spent here.

I've looked at my reasons for taking the helms on page one (and probably elsewhere), but I feel KnightSanguine covered things nicely (thanks for that, KS). A good summary would be that silver helms make a cost-effective choice for larger knight units led by an expensive character or two. With the character capability and the amount of points already spent on my bus, a DP upgrade isn't really necessary, especially considering the downgrade I'd have to make to another unit. The cheapest upgrade (8 DPs with musician) is 58 points and that'll lose me 4 elite infantry. In principle, if I wanted to field a large unit of dragon princes, I'd take them without characters. They are a good solution, for example, if you wanted to take a hitty cavalry bus whilst going the Archmage + Infantry BSB route, as has been discussed.

SpellArcher wrote:

Cython wrote:However, I was thinking, since the DP's have slightly more hitting power, that the BSB might be better off with, say, the unit of spears (unfortunately this would mean keeping him on foot, although it would mean he would stay with the majority of the other footslogging forces).

Have you seen Swordmaster's thread on this forum? He began with Seredain's list and has made this change. Obviously you lose slightly on the Bus (especially in extended combats) but you steady the Spears and probably get better re-roll coverage.

This is an important consideration for any High Elf list to make. I prefer my BSB on a horse since he provides the greatest tactical flexibility. He has better mundane armour (better armour altogether against shooting), so he can afford an extra item (the Amulet of Light), and he's faster so he can be earning points more quickly and more often with his skills as a fighting noble (it isn't all about the BSB upgrade).

There's no getting over the fact, though, that an infantry BSB will usually give you better coverage (unless I choose to deploy the mounted BSB with an infantry unit - possible against armies without cannons), but there are ways to compensate for this in deployment and manoeuvres of the helm bus itself. Ultimately, if I'm worried about lots of leadership tests, there's nothing stopping me deploying my knights with the rest of the army, as in my last game against the Daemons, where the silver helm unit really was the cornerstone of my defence.

Cython wrote:No, I haven't seen the thread by Swordmaster. I guess I should read up on that then. I wouldn't be too fussed. One issue I thought that seredain might have is simply a little bit of "all your eggs in one basket", what with the prince and noble in the same unit...

Once you get into combat, your eggs are all in one basket: if the unit breaks and is run down then it'll hurt! Until then, they're not really. You've got to watch out for the big spells but, otherwise, it'll remind you to keep your options open by remembering that the silver helms and the characters are separate units. My opponent won't earn any victory points for my characters by killing the knights and vice versa, while the characters are free to leave their unit if they need to for whatever reason or, indeed, deploy separately against certain opponents.


I need to get some sleep now but I'll get back to the rest of you guys soon- thanks for your interest. In the meantime, I'll leave you with news that my next campaign game is going to be against the Skaven. Sounds like an army made up of massive blocks: so far I've heard that I'll be looking at 80 slaves, 2 x 40 clanrats, 2 x 36 storm vermin, 2 x WL cannons, jezzails, fire throwers, doomwheel... Haven't heard anything about the characters yet, or about the presence of an HPA.

Thanks for the insight, Seredain, helpful as always
I can't tear myself away from keeping the BSB central and with the infantry, so I guess I could try dropping the prince from the DP unit and maxing out the AM. I guess I'll see how it fares...

Sounds like you'll have fun with the skaven. Show those vile rat-men what skill-at-arms and valour can do

I know you said that you disliked catering your army list to your enemy, but have you considered changing the AM's lore?
Shadow could be useful against the HPA, if there is one, while light could save you from the shooting, what with net of amyntok and pha's protection. plus burning gaze could put a dint in the HPA...
I assume you'd use the lions to take it out? I've tried that a couple of times. Always fail to wound and then end up with Lion Jelly...

Wow, that is a deployment across the board much. Expect to see a grey seer, bsb and an engineer or two with wacky uber weapons.
The grey seer dreaded thirteenth only works on infantry so don't worry if he casts it at your helms, I doubt a HPA will be in this list, as he has that many models and two lightning cannons. The doomwheel is doomed(TM) by your prince and bsb, so only worry if it starts charging your helms, it has s6 impact hits and also a fair few attacks. I lost a couple of knights to it before my Templar grand master ripped it a new one.

Oh, and kill those jezzails, or at least deploy a million miles away, their range will open your prince's armour like it is made of paper. If they hit. and don't explode.

Cython wrote:@Steverlion
I guess the only problem with doing that is it's only a few points short of upgrading the unit to DP's, and as said above, this causes more than enough havoc list-writing wise. I think it would come down the fact that it's 46 points that have already been used elsewhere, and whether or not losing something else to gain a bit of redundancy in the helm bus is worth it... And if you play it right, keep the knights away from fairly heavy shooting and magic, they probably won't need the extra wounds. IMO you'd be better off with the helms as it is.

Steverlion,

Thanks for the kind comments. Your question is a good one but I think Cython answered the problem well. Yes, I'd like a couple more helms in the unit, but it isn't worth it for the amount of pain I'd have to inflict on another unit. Something to think about when I start to earn extra points from mines during the campaign, though.

Prince Caspian wrote:But i digress. I wanted to try an empire version of this list, with knights and greatswordsmen, cannons, archers or crossbows and a templar master with the giants blade and something else, possibly a 1+ rr armour save.

what do you think about it ? could it be done on the same level? or would i need to play elves to get the proper effect?

Cheers PC!

I think Empire can make very good cavbus-led combined arms lists- they have all the tools. The infantry aren't so killy, but they have easier access to steadfast (more anvils for your hammers) and the abundance of war machines and cheap ranged shooting (plus the stank), can pile on the damage to those enemy hordes, meaning you don't need to rely as much on the one-turn combo-smash that I try and run here. As for the knight bus, warrior priests can offer knights hatred which, when they're inner circle (Str6 charge), can be just excellent (good armour is a help, too). Arch lectors and steam tanks offer mighty hammers to run alongside those big infantry columns, and there are plenty of decent light units (pistoliers, skirmishing archers, whatever), to run interference on a refused flank while your hammers go to work. I'd be interested to see this kind of empire list in action. Give it a go!

Prince Caspian wrote:Expect to see a grey seer, bsb and an engineer or two with wacky uber weapons.

I'd watch out for Dreaded 13th on your small units of elites Seredain. Scorch not quite such a problem as you deploy in two ranks and your Spears have numbers to cope with it. BSB likely to have the Storm Banner. You'll also probably see an Engineer with the Doomrocket.

Prince Caspian wrote: Also, I have another question for Seredain when or if he comes back. There is a Warriors player where I am, his army consists of 45+chaos warriors, a level 4 tzeentch wizard, some knights and two warshrines in 2500. His warriors have with them a bsb and the unit has the rapturous standard(any double or one 1 rolled for a break test is insane courage).

With his buffs from his warshrines, it basically makes this army invincible, his wizard able to cast gateway while anything that engages this mammoth block of warriors gets grond down turn after turn as his armour/tzeentch ward save/warshrine buffs/rapturous standard, this unit has never died in a game, and I was wondering, how would any of you deal with this unit of stupidity?

Prince Caspian

As Nunchucks said, this unit is asking for a Dwellers cast every single turn. Apart from that, a unit this big, slow and expensive should never get to see combat on its own terms. Deploy far away from it (easy - he'll have so few drops), then hold it up with chaff. Your entire army should focus its energies on taking out everything else in his list while you do this. Machines and elites on knights, cavalry getting forward quickly to get the rear and take out the shrines. You'll have so much board space and combined strength from deployment available (you have so many more units that deployment should give you a huge advantage), that this should be easy. After all this you can decide whether you want to go for the surround-kill or not. You don't have to, mind. Killing everything in his army but the deathstar will get you the win each time - eventually he'll stop bringing it and take more support.

I'll run some dice tests on this and see what comes up.

On the Skaven:

SpellArcher wrote:

Prince Caspian wrote:Expect to see a grey seer, bsb and an engineer or two with wacky uber weapons.

I'd watch out for Dreaded 13th on your small units of elites Seredain. Scorch not quite such a problem as you deploy in two ranks and your Spears have numbers to cope with it. BSB likely to have the Storm Banner. You'll also probably see an Engineer with the Doomrocket.

Thanks man- I hadn't thought of that. At least it can't affect my helm bus (I believe it only works on infantry?), so it's something I can save my dispel dice and scroll for. At the moment, my Skaven army book knowledge is pretty basic: I know what everything does but few exact stats. A little research required here, I reckon...

I'm curious as to why you haven't tried the Sword of Hoeth Seredian? You don't ignore armour, but that could be solved with the talisman or high armour targets, or shard for characters.

Baleanoon wrote:I'm curious as to why you haven't tried the Sword of Hoeth Seredian? You don't ignore armour, but that could be solved with the talisman or high armour targets, or shard for characters.

@Baleanoon, I believe four million pages previously in this thread, Seredain had a huge long post about the Giants blade vs the sword of Hoeth, to save his recap, I think he takes it for the armour save modifiers, and that he can wound monsters that are t6 on a 3+.
And the fact that an elf with s7 is freckin awesome lol

Seredain wrote: Cheers PC!

I think Empire can make very good cavbus-led combined arms lists- they have all the tools. The infantry aren't so killy, but they have easier access to steadfast (more anvils for your hammers) and the abundance of war machines and cheap ranged shooting (plus the stank), can pile on the damage to those enemy hordes, meaning you don't need to rely as much on the one-turn combo-smash that I try and run here. As for the knight bus, warrior priests, the can offer knights hatred which, when they're inner circle (Str6 charge), can be just excellent (good armour is a help, too). Arch lectors and steam tanks offer mighty hammers to run alongside those big infantry columns, and there are plenty of decent light units (pistoliers, skirmishing archers, whatever), to run interference on a refused flank while your hammers go to work. I'd be interested to see this kind of empire list in action. Give it a go!

Hey thanks for the imput Seredain, I recently made a decent Empire army based around a knightly order. . . a knight bus of fifteen plus an arch lector, bsb and templar grand master... beats down all.
Oh about steam tanks and war alters. I don't take em in my army, as I find that all they do is hold things up, not the kind of way I play.

Against the Skaven army you described one thing comes to mind very quickly: if you can neutralize his few weapon teams you dominate the ranged part of the game. Granted, Grey Seer is nasty but so is your Life AM! If you can get a Helm charge off against his Seer unit you will totally dominate the movement and flow for the rest of the game. Apart from this, most things have been said: Watch out for Dreaded 13th on elites and loaded warlocks.

Baleanoon wrote:I'm curious as to why you haven't tried the Sword of Hoeth Seredian? You don't ignore armour, but that could be solved with the talisman or high armour targets, or shard for characters.

As Caspian said, I have considered this before but, in summary, in an all-comers list you have to accept that heavy armour exists! Sword of Hoeth rules out fighting against troops which have it but, with the giant blade, the prince can pretty much take on anything. It's just a better weapon.

Curu Olannon wrote:Against the Skaven army you described one thing comes to mind very quickly: if you can neutralize his few weapon teams you dominate the ranged part of the game. Granted, Grey Seer is nasty but so is your Life AM! If you can get a Helm charge off against his Seer unit you will totally dominate the movement and flow for the rest of the game. Apart from this, most things have been said: Watch out for Dreaded 13th on elites and loaded warlocks.

Thanks CO - good tips.

I wrote a list I want to try, similar to yours in a way, but minus the actual prince.

30 Archers, sb, m 345
30 Archers, sb, m 345
Lvl 4, Staff of Solidity, High Magic 280
4 Eagles 200
7 Swordmasters 105
7 Swordmasters 105
10 Reavers, sb, m 191
Chariot 85
Chariot 85
11 SilverHelms, FC, 293
Noble, Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Dragon Armor, shield, Helm of Fortune, BSB, AoL 182
8 Dragon Princes, sb, m, flaming 280

2496

Ye gads, from your slow dwarfs, to running elves, that's an awesome cavalry list Lord Anathir. 10x Reavers, did you consider swapping the spears for bows?

Note for The Calvary Prince tacticial genuis!!!

As a HE player that also has a skaven army to allow my regular opponents to play something differrent(and sometimes even win) the dreaded 13th spell is rediculous. And i only ever take it when my rolled up spells are useless against my opponent.(howling gate vs dwarfs or WOC when no fliers are present for example) I am kind,but not that kind....

I would like to draw your attention to Plague spell. Toughness test or take a wound with no armour save. Against your list this is a spell i would be looking to take over dreaded 13th everytime. Main threat of your list is the Calvary bus and this spell is allot more lethal than dreaded against calvary armies. Can be cast into combat, so if by chance slaves have been used to slow you down. And to be frank, chance's are high that he will have plenty of them. Just a heads up as equally nasty a spell and could cause you some problems.

So watch out for this lovely spell as well. Dread is nasty but can not be cast into combat, Plague is just plan evil and only cast on a 13 so easier to get off.

Second Note -

DP over SH and the debate... Have been playing a few 3k list and have tried both DP's and SH as a bus. Conclusion is that in the majority of combats the DP's do not need a character to support against most opponents, whilst the helms do. So over all the Helms are the most cost effective way to deploy these. Ok, so i have also tried one bus of each with a mounted noble in each and it was just plain nasty.