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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:55 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
~Milliardo~ wrote:
I've considered buying some elephants, making howdahs for them, and mounting them on chariot bases, but it wouldn't fit my army's alpine setting very well...

IIRC Hannibal was most famous for leading elephants over the Alps!

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True! I did consider that... and my army and their city is stationed in the Vault Mountains - it could have stopped off in Araby first... or I could just cheat and use Mammoths. *wanders off rambling*

It's a great source of inspiration though if you can link your army to one or several real-life armies or cultures. It's definitely given me a lot of motivation over the years.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:46 pm 
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The battle of Cannae was amazing, but it was just one instance of Hannibal that was brilliant. Double envlopements aren't always practical, and tend to be quite risky.

I think the key to finding an ancient army to match the high elves lies in the pt cost of the high elves. You have to find armies that were composed primarily of elite soldiers. Also Elves are very maneuverable and thats why Mongolians came to mind for me, and while I see Reavers being perfect for a Mongolian style army, can say 15 reavers kill a unit larger than 20 in 6 turns?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:19 pm 
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I agree - the High Elves lend themselves more towards elite forces. They have the 'feel' of several cultures throughout history, but are so elite, over-trained, over-equipped and small that any army I can make with them feels more the like personal guard of some great king or something. For example, there are White Lions, which feel like Varangian Guard, but there's no option to represent the chaff that accompanies any human army.

It seems almost criminal to me though to make a Mongolian Army without some form of horse-archer!

I don't think they can wipe out a unit of 20 infantry on their own, but if used in units of 5, you could certainly still use them as support for taking out warmachines. Conventional internet wisdom holds that they're useless in larger numbers, but I'd still like to test that for myself - I can see where they could get shot to pieces, so I wouldn't want a character with them, but I still maintain that with careful positioning they could still do quite well, especially late game. I've used the Dragonmage for much the same thing, and shy of everything barring cannons it does quite well.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:11 pm 
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~Milliardo~ wrote:
I agree - the High Elves lend themselves more towards elite forces. They have the 'feel' of several cultures throughout history, but are so elite, over-trained, over-equipped and small that any army I can make with them feels more the like personal guard of some great king or something. For example, there are White Lions, which feel like Varangian Guard, but there's no option to represent the chaff that accompanies any human army.

One reason I am staying away from elite infantry now is that we already have to take a shedload of foot. Even just exchanging my White Lions for Core makes the army feel less like an elite Roman force and more Roman British say.

~Milliardo~ wrote:
I still maintain that with careful positioning they could still do quite well, especially late game.

I too am a fan of Reavers. In particular, I think their ability to still work after fleeing a charge should open up possibilities.

Hannibal used small African Forest elephants I think. He marched them via Spain if I remember correctly.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:52 pm 
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I really enjoy the skirmishing style that a mongolian theme would represent, although I think an army like O&G with wolf riders might be able to do it more cost effectively. Maybe 10 reavers and 5 dragon princes and a chariot with a dragon mage and mounted horse archer prince would make for a mobile harass unit, just leave the core at home and let them plink away and hope. Its not like every list has to be Aard Boyz.

I agree with Milliardo though, every force you build feels expeditionary or kings guard and not a true battlefield, because there just never is enough boots on the ground to justify large confrontations.

I'm running a Caledor list currently, and I am basing them off being on Vauls Anvil island, which I picture to be similar to Hawaii with rolling tropical hills and black volcanic rock. I always wondered how a calvary based province ended up in an area dominated by steep crags.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:35 am 
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Caledor, cav based, isn't this because of the lack of dragons? I assumed they get their horses from Ellyrion via trade

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:05 am 
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While I enjoy reading about ancient battles and armies of the past I feel like I must ask you to not derail this thread. It's been really great so far and a big part of that is due to the on-topic feel throughout every page.

Seredain - could you write a little bit about how you play against tough, shooty armies? If you could examplify with battle reports that would of course be outstanding but simply explaining how you play against e.g. storm banner skaven or slannbunkerlizards would be great!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:19 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
While I enjoy reading about ancient battles and armies of the past I feel like I must ask you to not derail this thread. It's been really great so far and a big part of that is due to the on-topic feel throughout every page.

Seredain - could you write a little bit about how you play against tough, shooty armies? If you could examplify with battle reports that would of course be outstanding but simply explaining how you play against e.g. storm banner skaven or slannbunkerlizards would be great!


I second the motion.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:54 am 
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Right, I'll shut up then. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
While I enjoy reading about ancient battles and armies of the past I feel like I must ask you to not derail this thread

Delaqure wrote:
I second the motion

It's Seredain's thread. That's up to him.

Any thread is going to deviate slightly at times as people discuss ideas at it's periphery. You have a point and maybe we should get back on track but the historical inspiration for Seredain's list seems important and it's not too far flung to discuss how his concept of translating a historical model into a working High Elf army could be adopted by other players.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:28 pm 
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Hahaha! I turn my back for three seconds... No worries chaps - we're pretty chilled here.

I think that you can play many themes with this army, but an all-cavalry mongol army isn't one of the best- core infantry sort of ruins the horsey party. As for Cannae, that's definitely a tactic that you can use. Check out the aforementioned 'Cup 'o Death' as a nice sort of formation or, similarly, the formation I adopted in that last game against the orcs: by the time the orcs were engaging with my infantry centre (deployed back), my flanks (deployed forward) had already begun the envelopment. As Milliardo says, though, High Elf armies tend to be very elite and consequently rather small. I'd use historical armies, generals and battles as inspiration, therefore, but I wouldn't try and shoe-horn myself into following their lead in every detail. I think putting elephants in your army might be pushing the Carthaginian metaphor a litte far, Milliardo. ;)

Curu Olannon wrote:
Seredain - could you write a little bit about how you play against tough, shooty armies? If you could examplify with battle reports that would of course be outstanding but simply explaining how you play against e.g. storm banner skaven or slannbunkerlizards would be great!

Sure thing. Soz I'm a little delayed on this - I know you asked about the Lizardmen earlier in the thread. As for Slann Lizards, I've fought them plenty of times. I've recorded a mini-report and full on Battle Report earlier in the thread- have a read and then, if you have any questions about how things went, let me know. In principle, you want to focus your energy in clearing away the skinks and getting control on the flank you want to attack - High Elves are good at this. Your job then is to overrun one flank, surround and then crush the slann's unit as quickly as you can. You don't want to get into grinding combats with lizards and the Slann's magic can force this. I've found a dispel scroll very handy for stopping that crucial toughness buff. Flaming attacks on a unit like white lions will eat through Earth Blood nicely.

Thoughts on Facing Shooty Armies

As for shooty armies, I've played machine-heavy orcs and a shooty empire army with this list (first few weeks of playing with it - I think I've mentioned these battles on Page 1), which I tackled much in the same way as I've shown with the Against Refused Flank map above on page 9. Empire machines are not reliable hitters, so I found I could get my fast units into combat at a weak point quickly, break through and have my characters and knights go their separate ways to kill all the machines. The empire player had knights covering his refused flank, but my ASF characters made a mess of them. By the time I was ready to engage with my infantry, I had some rear charges on with the prince and remaining helms.

I look forward to playing Dwarfs with this list, but I haven't yet. I have played them with an earlier Lvl4, Lvl2 + BSB list, where I deployed an extreme version of the anti-refused flank deployment I've already mentioned: I attacked the unit at the back of their refused flank- killed it all in a couple of turns (just like in the map I drew), so there was no support possible from other dwarf units. My current list could do it better, frankly, but with Dwarfs you should be ready to change your plans depending on what units they throw down. They've got good access to stubborn/unbreakable units. If you can't secure yourself a couple of rounds of combat to kill one of these units safely, go for a target you can break. In principle, against these targets (lots of people like hordes of dwarf warriors with great weapons - I'd like a shot at one of these), go for the 1-round kill or make sure you cover your strike from counter-charges if it's going to take longer advancing infantry units in the wake of your main attack can act as cover for the flanks.

As a High Elf general, your superior movement should mean you're able to focus a very large amount of power against a particular part of the Dwarf army. As a slow army, he'll usually find it difficult to respond, though units like anvils mean you don't want to hang around too long. Focus as much power as you need against this point. If it means deploying your whole army against only a part of his, do it. Shooting, magic, combined charges - all your efforts should go into breaking through this point. Once you manage it, you'll get the surround on other dwarf units and should be able to break them apart. These are the lessons I've learned with admittedly limited experience against Dwarfs. Still, my club's Mighty Empires campaign has begun and there's a dwarf army entering, so I'll probably have another battle against them soon enough!

Oh- one more thing. Kill the organ gun.

Proper Gunlines

Against gunlines, though, your general principle should be to get into combat as soon as possible! Milliardo, speaking in Swordmaster's 5th Battle Report thread, puts it well:

~Milliardo~ wrote:
When facing gunlines, especially when they're made of weak, squishy, clumsy humans, don't be afraid of putting your cavalry front and center and sending them straight up the center. The Silver Helm bus can grind their way through most every unit on this table, and they definitely can with the aid of the chariot, eagles and D' Princes! Don't waste valuable time flanking in this kind of battle! Turn 2 charge for the win! The second that the 'Silver Greyhound' hits his Swordsmen, the battle is going well! If he flanks the Silver Helms, it eats charge distance away for your other units, as they can quickly pile into the flanks of those other units.

Milliardo's point is a good one! If you can get a Turn 2 charge with the bus and are fairly confident that it'll hold through multiple turns of combat (and it should), take it. I normally throw my knights at the end of an enemy line rather than the centre (it tends to make target selection more difficult for my opponent - if the helms are running right up the middle, everything's gonna fly their way!) but, where you're outshot like this, a good rule of thumb in any case is just to get into combat as soon as possible. If you have a flank on, great, but don't manoeuvre so much that it keeps you in the open getting shot for longer than is necessary!

Finally, remember that, when you do attack an army like this, you really need to keep your helms, dragon princes and chariot together to provide force concentration and target saturation, allowing you to take some damage and still drive home your attack. Keep your spearelves and elites close by on the inside flank of your attack to provide close support (and, unfortunately for them, more targets). Concentration of force is important against any refused flank army but, against the really shooty ones and gunlines, it's even more important because of the hits you're going to be taking on the way in. Form your army into a fist, point it at a single part of the enemy army and get in there quickly.

Mighty Empires - First Game - Facing Daemons

Ah- another one more thing. My first game is this coming Thursday, against Daemons. I'm mostly aware of what this guy has (massive bloodletter unit of 30 or so (hee hee), 20 daemonettes, some juggernauts, some fast Slannesh ogre-sized things), as well as some of the basics (point DPs at Tzeentch units, kill the heralds). I'm pretty ignorant, however, as to the loadout that Bloodthirsters and Keepers will have. This guy knows he's playing High Elves and changes his list up before every game, so if he takes a BT I'm pretty sure he won't have the flaming sword. If anyone as a clue as to what other loadouts either of these greater daemons will have, a heads-up would be good!

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Last edited by Seredain on Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:56 pm 
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As an elf player who also plays daemons (Khorne focused), I believe I may be able to offer some help. I rarely take Bloodthirsters because Bloodletters are so fragile (T3 and only a 5+ ward, which, considering shooting S3 arrows at them it does the same damage as shooting does to swordsmasters, with similar influence on battle strategy), BUT I do know some bad combos with BTs from the times I've used one. Expect him to give the BT Armor of Khorne (3+ armor save). While useless against your prince, it can do some damage, especially when combined with a 5+ ward. Alternatively, he may give him obsidian armor (3+ armor save, and character can never be wounded with any roll below 3+, but at 50 pts this is a waste on something as tough as a BT so expect him to give it instead to a herald).

The most dangerous things I'd be worried about is Awesome Strength (S10 attacks at only 75 pts) and dark insanity (2D6+2 attacks at 55pts). The latter is particularly intriguing, having an average of 9 S6 attacks is very nice for a champion of the blood god. He can't take both due to points restrictions, so expect one or the other (against elves, i'd take dark insanity). He may also take whats essentially a dispel scroll (but may reserve that to a herald as well as its only 25 pts) or collar of Khorne (making his ward save Magic Resistance of 3, combined with a 5+ ward already makes him essentially immune to direct damage spells).

Also, as Bloodcrushers only have a 4+ armor save, they are very open to bolt throwers (multiple shots from 2 bolt throwers is enough to kill a few). If you engage them with your knights, expect carnage, so my recommendation is don't until they are reduced enough to kill with your knights outright. If any are still alive after your attacks, they will kill a quite few knights.

Fiends can be bad due to their movement and armor piercing. In terms of control of the movement phase, dealing with his slaanesh units (Fiends and Seekers) may take precedence, as they are essentially flyers (base movement 10, and seekers being fast cav with poisoned attacks and armor piercing). But if you take this route and shoot at them first (also no armor save, so only a 5+ ward), then try to avoid the bloodcrushers for a little. I usually take 5 BCs per unit, and anyone foolish enough to charge a unit of 10 knights at them usually ends up losing combat and running. Your prince and BSB may help with winning combat, but they also may just get killed as all bloodcrushers also have Killing Blow. Don't underestimate them.

Other than that, don't advance towards them with your infantry. They have to come to you, and Daemons are very vulnerable to shooting. Deal as much damage as you can before combat. Obviously, if he leaves a unit out on its own, fine, combo charge and eliminate them in one turn. Otherwise though, let his army take his time coming to you. If all he takes are Bloodletters and Daemonettes, they will be in charge range after two turns of marching. If he gives one of his bloodletter units Icon of Endless War (+D6 to first charge), then they are in range after only one turn of marching, so watch out for that. He can also give that to bloodcrushers, so be aware of that too.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Hi All!

Long time reader of these forums, but haven't played Warhammer for the past year or so. Firstly, let me echo what everyone else has said: Awesome thread Seredain!

Having just got back into in, I'm running to catch up on all the changes to the 8th edition, and tbh its massively different from what I remember in 7th. Read this entire thread which has been a massive help, thanks!

Massive fan of the combined arms approach, and while my army from the previous HE edition (when SH were core ;) was an all cavalry army, I had much more success when force to think Combined. Spent most of my time playing Orcs, Dwarfs, Warriors of Chaos and Lizardman. Commenting on from above, I haven't played Dwarfs in the 8th edition, but had no problem with them in 7th. Judging from what Seredain has been writing about, I reckon 8th would be even easier.

I suspect playing against Dwarfs would not have changed much, other than to give HE a better change in Close Combat. So from my experience:
My opponent usually took several blocks of study infantry, either Hammers or Ironbreakers, a whole bunch of guns/crossbows and War Machines and some rock hard characters. Echoing what Ceredain has said above, use superior movement to keep the dwarfs either turtled up, or running around in circles. I generally took my cavalry straight across the board to smash the gunline, and then retreated to pick of the slow infantry one at a time. Eagles are fantastic (were?) at taking out War Machines, as he tended to try to shoot my cavalry. No idea how magic would work in the new edition against them though. I used to count on casting 3 spells per turn, and only 1 going off. This was usually the 2nd one I tried to cast.

Since starting playing again, I've been playing mostly against Demons, and have absolutely butchered them. Not had to face a Demon Price or Greater Demon though. Bloodcrushers I've found particularly susceptible to White Lions and Swordmasters


Well, that's my 2 cents.. now for my questions!

Ceredain, was great to read the battle reports! really helped to catch up quickly.
I have a few questions:

In you last battle report, against the Orcs, your Chariot/Archers/DPs broke the Night Goblins, and the Chariot pursued into the Orcs. From the photos it didn't appear that the chariot was facing them, so was a bit confused how it managed this. So I went back and read the rulebook to see if pursuing had changed, and it seems the wording has slightly changed. Can you explain how it works now? Seems from the rules you could end up travelling diagonally to intercept a fleeing unit, rather than chasing directly behind them?
One thing I've struggled with in past games is setting up combats/charges/pursuing so that units progress from one combat to the next. I tend to spend my time resolving one, repositioning to engage the next and then resolving that etc.. (not very efficiently!). If I read this right, it makes even more difference when and where and what you get into combat now?


Secondly, magical attacks: A lot of fuss seems to be made about these in the rulebook, and was mentioned several times in various threads I've read. But, other than a few errant ghosts, I can't see the use of them. Have I missed something? Or are items like the amulet of light obsolete pretty much now? (Given that you could toast the small number of ethereal units you might come across with Magic anyway?)

Lastly, Unit Strength seems to have disappeared. I've read and understood this new steadfast malarky, so I guess there's nothing else to it? Having a giant dragon in you flank won't phase a unit enough to lose its rank bonus or leadership?


Will get around to posting what I'm thinking of fielding in this edition soon, if you wouldn't mind commenting on at the time :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:56 am 
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Daemon game sounds very intersting. I'd look out for Siren Song on the Slaanesh characters.

Most important use of magical attacks is against Wraiths IMHO. Magic can murder them but magic is not always reliable. A VC player can include a small unit at modest cost and if the enemy has nothing to hurt them they can cause lots of trouble.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:12 am 
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Additionally the Black coach may become ethereal as well and is very difficult to deal with. Then you have treespirits, current WE armies are dominated by treespirits and very dangerous. Finally, in mirror matches, a HE archmage with forlariath's robe will be a good target ;)

So to recapitulate:
1. VC
- Wraiths
- Black Coach
- Spirit hosts - both starting units and ones created via spell

2. WE
- Treeman
- Treekin
- Dryads
- Wild Riders

3. HE
- AM with forlariath's robe


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:41 am 
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That does it. I'm definitely making my elephant/counts as lion chariots now that you've told me not too. You have only yourself to blame, Seredain.

Also, I wrote a thing. Perhaps some people here would like to read it, even though its only semi-relevant. :3


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Hi Seredain,

I've been reading all this topic, thanks for all this information, it's amazing. I will try this army for my next game (with all my SH unused since 6th edition...)
I have a few questions for you (it's why I registered in this forum).

Have you ever played in a tournament with this army?
How would you manage some of the best armies of WB in the 8th edition (DE with a lot of crosbows, 2*hydras, lord unkillable/fast/stubborn, coldblood bus for example, or WoC full tzeench with lvl4 ward 3+, skavens with plague...).

Sorry for those questions without a lot of explanations, but my english is poor (I'm French) so it's hard for me to write a lot in Shakespeare's language.

Thanks for your answers! :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:13 pm 
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Elindar wrote:
Have you ever played in a tournament with this army?
How would you manage some of the best armies of WB in the 8th edition (DE with a lot of crosbows, 2*hydras, lord unkillable/fast/stubborn, coldblood bus for example, or WoC full tzeench with lvl4 ward 3+, skavens with plague...).

Bonjour! Your English is fine, Elindar - much better than my French!

Tough Lists?

I've just started a mighty empires campaign at my local gaming club (which should be fun), but I've never played in a major tournament, basically because I've only had a painted army for a matter of a few months (and only properly based for a matter of days thanks, ahem, to members of this forum). I've played dark elves lots in the past and know them pretty well- I'm not worried about them.

Crossbows have poor range and a High Elf army can punish them for that (archers, repeaters, cavalry), while making itself nicely resistant with Lore of Life. If his army is going with 2 hydras, I'll outshoot him easily. As for the hydras and cold ones, I've got plenty of high strength ASF attacks to make a mess of them with. Warriors like to field marauder hordes and these are very vulnerable to combined-arms elves. We can beat them in the movement phase and focus a lot of strength against them. Repeaters and the prince eat knights very well. My characters will also eat the Hell Cannon very nicely. Their characters are good, but they have to issue challenges and this undermines them- best thing I've found is to challenge them out with unit champs (regrowth handy here) and kill the troops around them. Expensive warrior blocks don't like being held up by cheap units like eagles, either. They're also quite slow so you should be able to keep them out of the game for a while.

As for the big power builds, I can't say I've faced all that many! But I've faced Slann bunkers and 40 khorne marauders and beaten them just fine... I've been coming to the conclusion that 8th Edition is far less about a very few power builds than 7th was. Unit types have much more distinct strengths and weaknesses than they used to, so I'd be surprised to find that there was an overwhelming consensus as to which builds were the best (although 3+ ward chosen would be up there!). It wasn't so long ago that pretty much everyone thought the only way to play High Elves was with an Archmage, all elite infantry + eagles.

Amaril wrote:
In you last battle report, against the Orcs, your Chariot/Archers/DPs broke the Night Goblins, and the Chariot pursued into the Orcs. From the photos it didn't appear that the chariot was facing them, so was a bit confused how it managed this. So I went back and read the rulebook to see if pursuing had changed, and it seems the wording has slightly changed. Can you explain how it works now?

Hey, glad you've found this useful!

It's relatively early days so there's always something I forget or get wrong! However I think that, when you pursue a unit, you first move the fleeing unit directly away from the unit with most ranks, then you pursue with everything. All things being equal you move the pursuing unit after the unit which is fleeing but, where we've got 2 or 3 units pursuing a single enemy, having them all go towards that enemy would leave them sat on top of each other. In these circumstances we usually just move all these units so they end up in line with each other rather than on top of each other. Playing it this way in the last game ended up with the chariot clipping the black orcs. Once it'd done that, we maximised contact as if it were a charge.

Amaril wrote:
Secondly, magical attacks: A lot of fuss seems to be made about these in the rulebook, and was mentioned several times in various threads I've read. But, other than a few errant ghosts, I can't see the use of them. Have I missed something? Or are items like the amulet of light obsolete pretty much now? (Given that you could toast the small number of ethereal units you might come across with Magic anyway?)

Marinero covered everything nicely. Basically, I wanted to create and play with a single list that could play anyone - even down to item choices. All comers lists need the amulet, I'd say. As has been said, magic is an unreliable solution to wraiths.

Amaril wrote:
Lastly, Unit Strength seems to have disappeared. I've read and understood this new steadfast malarky, so I guess there's nothing else to it? Having a giant dragon in you flank won't phase a unit enough to lose its rank bonus or leadership?

A dragon has 0 ranks so, to break steadfast, it needs to reduce its target unit to an even number of full ranks, in this case 0. This makes base leadership more important and forces you to think more carefully about how you tackle big units. That dragon will need far fewer kills if its fighting alongside a large spearelf unit, for example. Generals and battle standards are also made more important. Steadfast doesn't do much good if you're a night goblin unit testing on Ld5.

SpellArcher,

Siren Song forces a charge or flee move, is that right? Also, can it pull characters out of a unit or does it just work on units as a whole? Presumably only charges which are possible (ie 12" + movement) are forced by the song?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:45 pm 
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I've never read the rules, but when my friend plays his army with 3 characters capable of using Siren Song on me I was not given a flee option. It's used on the unit(at least this is how he's used it). They must be within charge range. So 20" for our cav and 17 for our infantry.

It's actually a little frustrating to have your shooting units be forced to make a charge move(vanguard move and a high move characteristic on the seekers to start with) or to have your units scattered all over in directions you don't want them to go.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:59 pm 
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It can target a unit, not a character from a unit. So, if your character is on his own he can be singled out, but if hes in a unit, then the whole unit charges. Also, it doesn't have to be in reasonable range; only within 20'. The only stipulation is the unit targeted must be able to charge the daemon who has the item by normal rules for charging. But you only have to declare a charge, not succeed in a charge, in order to not flee.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:36 pm 
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I wanted to offer a small battle report using a list not unlike Seredain's, I hope this is the right place to put it.

Prince, GW, HA, Vambraces of Defense, ToL, Mask of Merlord (Cheapest way to get 4+ save, reroll armor 2+), Barded
Archmage, L4, Dispell scroll, life (Got the big four rolling)

Mage, l2, jewel of dusk, high, (got courage, and shield)
Noble, GW, HA, Amulet of Light, Phoenix Guard, Barded

33 LSG, (8x4 then 5x7) FC, Warbanner (Static combat winner)
11 Archers, Musician

14 SM vanilla
12 WL, FC, Banner of Sorcery
5 Dragon Princes, Banner of Arcane Protection and Musician

2 RBT
1 Geagle

The Line up was Archers, RBT, LSG, RBT, SM, WL, 8 inches of space, DP
Behind the lineup were my two mages, High behind LSG, Life behind SM/WL.

The Opponent was playing vampire counts... he has destroyed me twice, this is the first time we go to 2400.
Black Coach, 5 inches, tower, Vampire Lord in 30 skellies deep with 20 behind them, 39 graveguard in horde with bsb with +1 to hit, 30 ghouls (all of these are give or take a few units)
Behind the horde, a corpse cart and 3 fell bats.


Turn 1
I get to finish deploying first and win the roll. I move up with the right side. I miss the black coach which I tried to hit knowing it will destroy me because my DPs with magic attack ended up on the opposite side. Meanwhile I do get to kill about 5 skellies in the Vamp Lord's unit. I cast Throne of Vines... I cast drain magic and its off.

His turn, he fails to charge my DPs with his ghouls. He moves stuff up, puts bats infront of my eagle and sword masters. His magic phase, he uses curse of ages on LSG, rolls high, I use dispell scroll. He uses the rest of his dice to kill ToV.

Turn 2
I charge the ghouls with DPs (lose one to bad terrain). I charge the bats with SM and Eagle (on the flank). My white lions cannot charge his general there is a combat going on infront. I roll double 3s for power pool. I get 3 dice for banner, 1 channel and 1 from dusk. His black coach takes 2 away and is now everything but flying and ethereal. I get Throne of Vines off with 18 on 3 dice. He chooses to keep his 4 dispell dice (channelled one). I IF the flesh to stone on the DPS. shooting his general i take 7 skellies out, not bothering with BlackCoach. DPs win combat by 10, he is down to 6 ghouls. My swordmasters kill the bats, overrun into graveguard. My eagle overruns into his general.

He charges the archers with Black Coach. He kills and pursues, unable to see anything else for next turn. His general kills my eagle. His horde kills all but 4 SM, who manage to run away by one inch. My DPs beat ghouls and reform to face his general`s flank!

Turn 3
I Charge the general, whose regiment was down 12 skellies, with white lions and DPs... the rest is vampire dust...

No Silverhelms bus required... Please ask any questions you might have...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:57 pm 
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Well played sir!

To Marinero's list I would add Ethereal Slann and Vampires. There may be others that haven't ocurred to us.

I think there's a crucial distinction between Forest Spirits and Ethereals. The former can still be hurt by non-magical attacks. Obviously on top of all the protection a Treekin unit say, already has, the conditional Ward is excellent. A flexible list though can still tackle it even without magical attacks.

Ethereals are a risky gambit as they tend to be expensive and can lack other protection. One thing to consider is magical shooting, Dwarfs and Skaven are bad news for them and Elves can have a pop with magic bows. A Vampire can supercharge a unit of Wraiths but is obviously even more committal. I'd forgotten how quickly Black Coaches pick up buffs now, Marinero's point is excellent. Plus they don't suffer from the vulnerabilities of Spirit Hosts etc..

I remember your game against Ethereal-spam with your 7th edition list Seredain and how tricky it was to get a handle on it even with tools in your list. I guess you don't see it often for all-comers because it's just too vulnerable to certain enemies. Maybe you're right about the Amulet. Popular on a small unit of DP's but the Bus should be able to run over just about any Ethereal it meets I guess.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Mighty Empires - First Game - Daemons

Ah- another one more thing. My first game is this coming Thursday, against Daemons. I'm mostly aware of what this guy has (massive bloodletter unit of 30 or so (hee hee), 20 daemonettes, some juggernauts, some fast Slannesh ogre-sized things), as well as some of the basics (point DPs at Tzeentch units, kill the heralds). I'm pretty ignorant, however, as to the loadout that Bloodthirsters and Keepers will have. This guy knows he's playing High Elves and changes his list up before every game, so if he takes a BT I'm pretty sure he won't have the flaming sword. If anyone as a clue as to what other loadouts either of these greater daemons will have, a heads-up would be good!
Bloodletters have hatred, and if they add in the Khorne Herald and a banner, they get re-roll wounds and I think killing blow. Dicey match up for your silver helms, but having the prince challenge and kill the herald before the letters can swing means they're just attacking as normal. But if he uses a champ to accept the challenge the first round, you're going to really end up with a lot of dead silverhelms quickly. You may be better off with using the swordmasters to take out the bloodletters. They'll only have the 5+ ward as a defense, and you should be able to carve through a number of them easily. Expect casualties.

Ohterwise, they're just T3, so softening them with shooting should be a fine.

Also consider spear elves as a front anvil against letters, all elves are equally vulnerable to letters, so you might as well let your cheapest unit do the dying.

Horrors, furies, and the like should be considered slightly resilient chaffe, save the bolt thrower, and always expect the chaos hounds to survive slightly better then you expect.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Baeronvonbleat wrote:
Bloodletters have hatred, and if they add in the Khorne Herald and a banner, they get re-roll wounds and I think killing blow. Dicey match up for your silver helms, but having the prince challenge and kill the herald before the letters can swing means they're just attacking as normal. But if he uses a champ to accept the challenge the first round, you're going to really end up with a lot of dead silverhelms quickly. You may be better off with using the swordmasters to take out the bloodletters. They'll only have the 5+ ward as a defense, and you should be able to carve through a number of them easily. Expect casualties.
I was looking at the book yesterday and I'm pretty sure it's KB as standard but Hatred only if a Herald is in the unit. Re-rolling to wound is a character Gift I think. Quite right that these guys are generally feared though.

Baeronvonbleat wrote:
Ohterwise, they're just T3, so softening them with shooting should be a fine.

This is the key I reckon.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:19 pm 
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I play against Daemons all the time and they are tough, especially if built tough, but they're obviously beatable. The Bloodthirster might have an infinite hatred-style gift (re-roll to hit each round), probably won't take S10 because it's a bit much for way too many points. An armor gift is likely as otherwise they can die to archers surprisingly easily. The Prince should be able to do a couple of wounds but will probably be unable to kill the BT on his own as the BT has Killing Blow and that's ungood for the cav prince. As for the Keeper of Secrets, that's an especially scary one. -4 to armor save base, I10 with a bunch of attacks is scary. Keep in mind it doesn't fly, so Eagles can block their charges. If he's feeling feisty he'll take Spirit Swallower which is either 100 or 75 points and heals the Keeper a wound for each wound it deals (though not on Thunderstomps). The other Keeper powers are LD affecting stuff which in my opinion isn't as powerful as Spirit Swallower unless he's doing a LD bomb style army with the Masque, banners, etc.

In short, expect a 3+ armor save and re-rolls to hit with the Bloodthirster, and probably Spirit Swallower from the Keeper of Secrets.

Also, my 2 cents of advice: If he's playing a big bus of Bloodcrushers (juggernauts) just avoid them. They put out a crazy number of attacks at high WS and Strength. Direct attacks at Heralds, especially the Khorne ones. If you kill the Herald of Khorne (I6 just to warn you) his Bloodletters will lose Hatred (they come with Killing Blow) and you will have an infinitely easier time with dealing with them. I haven't played against Seekers, but at M10 there's not a whole lot you can do with regards to controlling where they are. I believe they're S4, AP with Poison, so they'll make short work of infantry.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:00 pm 
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wbarobinson wrote:
No Silverhelms bus required... Please ask any questions you might have...

Sometimes it won't be. In fact I've run my prince with my 5 dragon princes on a couple of occasions. Principally this was a ploy to throw my opponent's deployment off (he deployed in strength against the silver helms), but there's no doubt that two characters and 5 DPs will make a mess of whatever they charge. Two big problems, though:

1: There's no second rank. Against some opponents you can live without it and rely on kills, as you found. Against many others, though, the spare rank is critical for breaking steadfast on top of the kills your charge brings. For example, in the Lizardmen game I reported (Page 3 I think), it was the spare rank which allowed me to run over 18 saurus in one turn despite suffering an unlucky number of casualties. This got me into the Slann (and got him killed) at least a turn earlier than would otherwise have been possible. I've talked about the usefulness of the second rank in full in the section on Breaking Infantry Hordes on page 6.

2: Against an army with any level of shooting, you're playing with fire by fielding two expensive characters in a unit of 5. You need 5 rank and file models for a character to get his Look Out Sir! save. A single casualty taken by a bodyguard of 5, then, instantly leaves the prince more vulnerable to any hits distributed like shooting but, most worryingly, as cannon food. A 1+ armour save is no good against a cannon ball. In an all comers list, therefore, a bodyguard of 5 knights does not lead to good times.

SpellArcher wrote:
To Marinero's list I would add Ethereal Slann and Vampires. There may be others that haven't occurred to us.

I think there's a crucial distinction between Forest Spirits and Ethereals. The former can still be hurt by non-magical attacks. Obviously on top of all the protection a Treekin unit say, already has, the conditional Ward is excellent. A flexible list though can still tackle it even without magical attacks.

Ah yes, good thinking, SA. The ghost frog... Honestly there's quite a lot of annoying stuff out there to be sorted by a 15 point item. I can always say 'the prince can handle that' with his sword, but he can't be everywhere at once! At least with a mobile BSB I have the option of running him solo or joining another unit with him. At worst, all of the bus gets the magical attacks.

SpellArcher wrote:
I remember your game against Ethereal-spam with your 7th edition list Seredain and how tricky it was to get a handle on it even with tools in your list. I guess you don't see it often for all-comers because it's just too vulnerable to certain enemies. Maybe you're right about the Amulet. Popular on a small unit of DP's but the Bus should be able to run over just about any Ethereal it meets I guess.

Pretty much. And it's great for treekin, treemen- tough stuff. The folariath's archmage is definitely something to think about- quite a popular choice and there are two other High Elf armies in this campaign. I don't want my opponent to ever be able to say 'oh, by the way, I'm immune to all your attacks'. That sort of thing can throw a massive spanner into the best laid plans!

Back on to the Daemons;

jwg20 wrote:
As an elf player who also plays daemons (Khorne focused), I believe I may be able to offer some help.

Dude thanks for your piece - it's excellent help. I didn't know about the killing blow on bloodletters and bloodcrushers- I'll be looking to fend off slaaneshi units with my knights and aim for some flanks I think. If I can get into the flank of the big 'letter unit and lay down some serious pain with a combined cavalry/infantry charge, it's going to be trouble for them. Cautious play with the infantry is a habit of mine in any event - certainly after what you say I see no reason to rush into a fight with the daemons!

Speaking of killing blow, though...

CrazyCarl wrote:
I play against Daemons all the time and they are tough, especially if built tough, but they're obviously beatable. The Bloodthirster might have an infinite hatred-style gift (re-roll to hit each round), probably won't take S10 because it's a bit much for way too many points. An armor gift is likely as otherwise they can die to archers surprisingly easily. The Prince should be able to do a couple of wounds but will probably be unable to kill the BT on his own as the BT has Killing Blow and that's ungood for the cav prince...

Does the bloodthirster always have killing blow or is it a gift? The former is indeed very bad news! Hmm... missiles will be my friend, here. If I can get him down to 3 wounds I should be able to finish him... Something I've noticed in 8th is that 20" is not really that far. Mr thirsty will have to come out of hiding at some stage...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:57 pm 
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BCs only have killing blow. (EDIT: BLs do have KB. I don't know what I was talking about when I said they didn't That's why you don't rely on memory for rules I suppose; I rarely need the KB for BLs because I always have them fight enemy infantry). They are base S5 though, and fight in initiative order too. Both BCs and BLs though have hatred if accompanied by a herald of Khorne, hatred being especially bad if he couples it with BCs due to the sheer number of attacks: WS5 re-rolled missed hits with killing blow is vicious! (Unit of 4 with herald and Champion gives 22 attacks, of which approximately 18 will hit after re-rolls and so 3 will be killing blow on average). Any that aren't killing blow though are at -3 to armor save (-2 for mounts). He may give his BT killing blow or hatred (does not come base for the BT, both are gifts). And yes, S10 isn't that likely given the points cost. Hatred and Killing Blow or Dark Insanity (2D6+2 attacks) are cheaper and can be more devastating. It depends on how he wants to use the BT. If he wants it to destroy large units, expect Dark Insanity (coupled with tunderstomp can really reduce a large infantry unit to so many respective parts, especially if he sees your SMs with only 14 models. I'd be drooling...). If he wants to use it to take out your characters and/or cavalry, expect killing blow and hatred. His deployment of the BT will help in deciding what he is likely to have.

I find Heralds are usually better for hunting characters, which can be coupled with a no AS weapon, and as on a BT you can often find a lot of the wounds he causes in a challenge with Killing Blow are wasted in combat resolution (only up to 5 wounds for overkill? I once in a challenge caused 10 wounds for overkill with Killing Blow. Rather lucky rolling as I rolled 4 6s to wound and 2 more also wounded regularly, of which he saved 1, but still it can happen). Either way, I think its more likely than not for him to give the BT a 3+ armor save.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:08 pm 
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My experience bears out what you say Seredain. As soon as you put a bolt into them they get very cautious. Awesome offensively but doesn't have the wounds of a Star Dragon.

Hmm...my book says 'letters do have KB.

Another point is that Keepers, who used to strike before us due to higher I, now strike simultaneously per the ASF rules.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:00 am 
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Yes, SA, you got me. BLs have KB. I was relying on memory which is poor at the moment as I have been focusing on elves. KB is something that I rarely need for BLs as I usually use them against infantry where it is sort of a moot point.

And yes, the potential damage a BT can be dealt by shooting is pretty severe, and anyone who uses one realizes the safest place he can be is in combat...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:15 am 
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Why shouldn't I replace an RBT and a WL or SM with an Mage with Lore of Light's basic spell and jewel of Dusk (115 point each). The way I see it, the mage offers mobility, about the same number of hits, costs your main wizard one powerdice (assuming you throw two at the 5+ casting spell), works as a great backup with the sup'ed up version if your main wizard fails to cast, and doubles his help against the very tough matchups of VC, WoC and Demons (Tomb Kings might be viable in 2 months too)... Worse case he's offering channeling dice and 1 dice from jewel against dwarves with their armor and magic resistance.

Am I wrong? Tell me why because I want to know.


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