Re: Return of Seredain the Cavalry Prince - 2.5K
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:33 pm
An epic stuffing!
Like clockwork...
Like clockwork...
Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
https://ulthuan.net/forum/
Like clockwork is right - it couldn't have gone better if I'd planned it, which of course I did.SpellArcher wrote:An epic stuffing!
Like clockwork...
The Giant BladeNithe wrote:I have a question: Why do you use the Giant Blade for ** points instead of using a great weapon? Is the extra +1 to strength worth that many points when you can take a great weapon and still have asf?
Many thanks dude. I do quite like the idea of a 'Cavalry Prince Manual', I must admit! [@Scubaelf - if you've spotted any spelling mistakes while highlighting your printouts, please let me know! I have a horror of bad grammer - probably why it takes me ages to write anything...]flanker wrote:Seredain, your posts adds that extra level of sophistication and deep insight to this forum. Thus, I’m in the process of collating the highlights of this thread into a single concise “Calvary Prince manual” which can be read over easily.
From a tactical movement and positioning perspective, are you able to explain how to fully maximise the flanking impact of your cavalry through movement and positioning? E.g. spend turn 1 & 2 moving deep into his flank, reposition on turn 2 to prepare a charge so that his block cannot angle to accept charges from 2 units to the front only? Proper manoeuvre and execution has always been a sticking point for me so many thanks advance.
It was well worth the read, the photos really helped to visualise your maneouvres.Seredain wrote:This last battle is worth a look for High Elf players I think, since it shows off nicely the strength that a manoeuvreable combined-arms list can have against infantry-heavy forces.
Of course! Not a problem. Thanks for the kind comments.Curu Olannon wrote:This thread has been a great read and truly inspired me! I will most definitely scroll through these pages more than once...
Seredain - I have a favour to ask: can I use your army list as an example? I've recently written a concise article about my approach to High Elf army list design. I would very much like to include your list as an example, demonstrating my principles with your army. The link can be found in my signature.
Cheers!
He's taken this point to heart actually, SA. List design is being given a thorough overhaul - we're looking at a rock lobber, a couple of spear chukkas, a unit of wolf riders and another small unit of boar boyz. Spear and Black Orc units are getting bigger but it looks like the choppa horde is being completely got rid of. Just like some people never got over 'Nam, this orc isn't going to get over my archmage tearing his horde to pieces with Dwellers below. That one stung!SpellArcher wrote:I also think this game should be really useful for your opponent. So he's tried a raw 'Blocks FTW' approach and got beat. Now he can refine his list and tactics to counter the approach you've used against him. Reminds me of when I started with Lizardmen under 6th. Facing an LSG army I thought 'lets just go for it' and threw lots of Saurus at him. I got march-blocked and shot to bits but it was very educational!
So he's going combined arms over multiple blocks?Seredain wrote:He's taken this point to heart actually, SA. List design is being given a thorough overhaul - we're looking at a rock lobber, a couple of spear chukkas, a unit of wolf riders and another small unit of boar boyz. Spear and Black Orc units are getting bigger but it looks like the choppa horde is being completely got rid of. Just like some people never got over 'Nam, this orc isn't going to get over my archmage tearing his horde to pieces with Dwellers below. That one stung!
Welcome! Apologies for any undue High Elf triumphalism on my part but Seredain's thread is good for team spirit!Not an Elf wrote:Hello folks, allow me to introduce myself....
Wayhay! Welcome to the lion's den, amigo... This is where the magic happens.Not an Elf wrote:Hello folks, allow me to introduce myself....
I am Seredain's punchbag
Yep, this is a key point. If you want to win combats against large units quickly (and, as elves, we usually do), get as many attacks in there as you can.Meridian wrote:I think the part of Seradain's tactics that sticks out the most to me as far as army building is concerned is putting as many attacks as possible on the smallest base size as possible, showing the value of chariots, and calvary to some degree.
Orc HordesSpellArcher wrote:So he's going combined arms over multiple blocks?
Warms the heart don't it?
Stomp and Thunderstomp attacks only work against the unit types Infantry, War Beasts and Swarms, not war machines, so he couldn't stomp on my repeater. War machines aren't really great targets for giants, as a rule.jwg20 wrote:I have a question about the previous battle. You said the giant was held up by your RBT because first turn he decided to "yell and brawl." Did he not thunderstop after the normal attack phase? Or did it fail to wound? I believe the giant can still thunderstomp regardless of what he does that turn, and if he did fail to wound 2 unarmored archers with a S6 thunderstomp that is horrendous luck for your opponent!
This is absolutely the case, and the big weakness of all-infantry armies everywhere. Basically, if I get into the enemy army's flank unmolested, they're dead.Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: O&G Army composition
However, lack of support troops, and especially artillery, seemed to make your flank maneuver much easier. No diverters, no need to worry about positioning your cavalry, so that it does not expose its flank to spear chukkas, etc.
The placement of the boar boyz was a big concern for me. I was happy to deploy my knights against them - confident I would triumph in that match up, at which point I would have the slow-moving orc infantry at my mercy. My opponent made a good call, I reckon, in deploying them next to the night goblins - whose fanatics I didn't want to put my knights anywhere near. It just so happened, however, that my combination of repeaters and spears on my right flank made it much easier for me to adapt my plan on that part of the field than for my opponent to adapt his. Apart from all the shooting and the infantry, I had the eagle, who would've held the boars up for another turn of movement. Unfortunately for the orcs, they had nothing to shoot or hold up my units on the opposite flank and it cost them dear.Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: So I believe there where two questions you had to ask yourself. Where is he going to deploy his Boar Boyz? And where would be better to deploy your Silver Helms? I must admit I was wondering about his deployment of Giant and Boar Boyz. Maybe that was his initial plan to destroy your shooters, as the rest of the army is slow while these two units can absorb some amount of damage and still do the job. On the other hand, it seems you gave him some hints about where your main cavalry unit is going to be. As you pointed out, on your east flank there was a piece of terrain which limited maneuverability. And other units were already on the west.
The White Lions Out of CombatSwordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I was wondering why you deployed White Lions and Chariot so far away but during the course of battle it all seemed clear. At the beginning though I thought they might be too far away to be ready to support your cavalry and Swordmasters.
Testing on Leadership 8Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:3. I believe you had some luck in this game which helped you and left the impression of a one-sided battle. Failed panic test of Boar Boyz was definitely something you hoped for but obviously could not count on it happening for sure with Ld 8. Further failed animosity test rendered this unit useless for the rest of the game. Indeed, I believe in future battles Boar Boyz are going to find themselves waving this new and shiny banner .
Dwellers BelowSwordmaster of Hoeth wrote:4. Your Dwellers was truly devastating. No wonder people do not like this spell at all.
Breaking the Orc SpearsSwordmaster of Hoeth wrote:5. I was impressed by the effects of the combat where Swordmasters and DP defeated Spear Orcs. I should not be really surprised as I know from my own experience what Swordmasters alone can do. However, this is yet another example of what you wanted to highlight in your posts. With enough attacks the huge enemy infantry block can be reduced to insignificant numbers in one turn. And by combo-charging you can break it, destroy it on pursuit and combat-reform with other unit to position it so that it can immediately be ready for another charge next turn. I was just wondering, did you attack boar chariot with your chariot first? If you resolved Swordmasters+DP fight first, then if I am not mistaken, you could resolve Dp+Chariot fight in the same turn.
The SpearelvesSwordmaster of Hoeth wrote:6. It was interesting to see how Spearelves perform during the battle. Despite the lack of Regrowth spell this time, they managed to keep their combat prowess all game. Sure, they had some luck with charging through fanatics but in the end emerged victorious. It also showed that against other core infantry they can prevail on their own. It does not matter they cost much more than night goblins with fanatics. They managed to protect the flank and push forward when required, defeating enemy units and not letting them to help isolated friendly regiments.
ShootingSwordmaster of Hoeth wrote:7. I like the fact that clearly every single unit contributed to the entire game constantly. It is nice to see shooting effective enough to kill a chariot and a giant. Viable targets for HE archery which didn't waste their arrows for horde.
The ChallengeSwordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I was wondering though if it was not too risky to challenge Black Orc General. You were definitely lucky with 6's for armor save.
Many thanks! Another game, with the amended orc list being discussed above, is on for this Saturday. Assuming we throw down again I'll definitely do another report!Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Summary
I am going to repeat myself but I really enjoyed the report. I do hope it is just a nice beginning to see more of them. Would be great to see a re-match, and find out what your opponent learned from this crushing defeat.
Great job and Congratulations!
Excellent work, hombre!Janwin wrote:Greetings. I gave a list based off this a go last evening at my local game shop. One of the guys there wanted to test out his 2200 point tournament list he intends to use at a GT this weekend, and I wanted to give High Elven cavalry a go (usually I use infantry). While I'm sure that a lot of it had to do with lucky rolls on my part, unlucky rolls on his part, no shooting on the part of Vampire Counts, and my level 4 archmage manhandling his 2 casters (l1 and l2).
......
Ultimately, the cavalry was able to roll his flank...
And I bet your opponent thought you were bringing a 'soft' list, too.Janwin wrote:While a lot can be attributed to luck...I must say, I'm liking cavalry. It takes a lot more planning and strategy to get it right, and doesn't seem very forgiving if you don't get it right, but if you do...yikes.
Great to hear! You're very welcome.Janwin wrote:*grins* We both did. Didn't realize just quite how lethal the list could be since I'm not a huge fan of Silver Helms nor Bolt Throwers of late (I hadn't broken out my helms all of 7th ed...had to dig them out of the dusty box of 6th ed stuff in storage to play it).
Far far -far- more fun than the static infantry list that so many (including myself) run (ran). Thanks muchly for the inspiration, and all the advice that's been presented in this thread. My elves were getting boring (ironic since I play Dwarves and VC also, which are perhaps even more boring and static) and it's nice to try something new.
I'll leave that one to you!Janwin wrote:Next step? To see if I can make a list largely based around my beloved (and really sadly overpriced with 8th ed) Shadow Warriors...
I'd like to help - I think I can do so without derailing the thread very far from its topic, as they fit in very well with cavalry and combined arms as well.Janwin wrote:Next step? To see if I can make a list largely based around my beloved (and really sadly overpriced with 8th ed) Shadow Warriors...
I remember dabber making the point that Horde is often better on powerful troops, as extra S6 attacks from WL say are more use than extra S3 attacks from Clanrats, who might want to go deep instead. Maybe Black Orcs are the boys for this.Seredain wrote:with relatively cheap troops, combat characters, high toughness and the new choppas rule, orcs really are well placed to take advantage of horde formations.
Absolutely. Sometimes you have to take a key test on Ld9 but too many Ld8 tests and something important gives.Seredain wrote: As a High Elf general, I try and never rely on it because any test you make at Ld8 you can fail.
Millliardo makes a lot of good points. Also have you read krysith's shooty avoidance tactica?Janwin wrote:Next step? To see if I can make a list largely based around my beloved (and really sadly overpriced with 8th ed) Shadow Warriors...
Large Hordes vs Elite HordesSpellArcher wrote:I remember dabber making the point that Horde is often better on powerful troops, as extra S6 attacks from WL say are more use than extra S3 attacks from Clanrats...Seredain wrote:with relatively cheap troops, combat characters, high toughness and the new choppas rule, orcs really are well placed to take advantage of horde formations.
Yep, kudos there, Milliardo - that's a really nice write-up. If you want to shove a bold title at the top, ('On Shadow Warriors' or something), I'll put the header in the Thread Contents - I'm not likely to do a guide to Shadow Warriors myself any time soon - just can't fit 'em in - but for sure they can play their part in combined-arms High Elf armies.SpellArcher wrote:Millliardo makes a lot of good points. Also have you read krysith's shooty avoidance tactica?Janwin wrote:Next step? To see if I can make a list largely based around my beloved (and really sadly overpriced with 8th ed) Shadow Warriors...
Dwellers Against the SpearelvesSwordmaster of Hoeth wrote: I was wondering how would you cope with Dweller cast on Spearelves. Your Lizardmen opponent was more occupied with increasing toughness of his own troops than depleting the number of your warriors. It is very potent spell and with enough winds of magic it can be through no matter what. So here are questions for you. How do you plan to cope with killer spells like Dwellers, 13th or similar? And how do you try to recover from heavy casualties situations, especially when you do not get Regrowth?
That's right. In principle, don't rely on anything happening unless the averages really are in your favour. What you want to do is to set up combats stacked in your favour to the point where a bit of bad luck isn't the end of the world, but where a bit of good luck really swings the result massively. If those orcs had killed an above average number of swordmasters, then, it would have been fine- a second-round victory for me- but they only had to score one less kill than average to turn a Stubborn Ld9 break test into needing double 1's.Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: Orc spears on defense with 'Ere We Go spell (re-rolls to Hit rolls) can be tough to crack too. As you say, two rounds of combat here usually, so good for you that you broke them on the charge. It is easy to forget that sometimes that one wound might be a difference between steadfast and break test. So I believe you also plan for longer combat but still on your terms.
Yeah, ASF-fuelled quick-kills are the key to the way my list plays. At full strength, white lions hordes are better than many others because of ASF- it really makes the best use of the extra attacks- but the lion horde is also both very vulnerable to damage and very expensive, while only 8 or so wounds before it hits combat will render the wide formation useless.SpellArcher wrote:What I think makes your army particularly effective against elite Hordes Seredain is ASF and it's ability to focus lots of S5+ attacks at once. The White Lion horde works well for some people because with ASF it won't be getting chopped up before it has a chance to strike. It's also Stubborn of course. Other troops like Bloodletters say, have good intiative and the fear factor of KB but against your hammer units that may not be enough.
I think BO's are best used to chop up core troops- they die hard to elven elites.SpellArcher wrote:I can see the problem with Black Orcs. They're relatively expensive, they strike last, armour and leadership OK but not awesome. Maybe the bigger Orc Boyz horde is the way to go.
This would be a powerful unit, SA. The ward save is excellent. Only problem I see (other than the vulnerable shaman), is that I wouldn't really want one of my most expensive units overrunning sacrificial eagles every turn! I think that, in an army already cursed by its uncontrollable elements, losing more control by taking frenzied units would be playing with fire. But then I'm used to disciplined elves.SpellArcher wrote:Lots of Savage Orcs...
So the Shrunken Head gives the unit a 5+ Ward, which is nice. As mentioned, there are a couple of good combat buffs in the Big Waagh and with a Lvl4 you can get away with burning the Arcane slot on the Shrunken Head I feel. Not sure if the Big'uns upgrade would be a good idea. The biggest problem is still the I2 I feel. Spells like Purple Sun and Pit will hurt and even the 100pt Banner does nothing against them. I look at trying to build for Orcs and just keep noticing the sweet High Elf options I no longer have available.
And there's this too! I suppose at least Black Orcs and Big Uns are better at strength tests.Mikael.K wrote:While 50 orcs or 40 black orcs would be a nice unit, it also makes for a nice dwellers target.
This is what I've seen so far, but lots of players haven't. Most armies I've seen in the upcoming campaign I'm entering (starting Monday) are built around a few big blocks or hordes with precious little support. I haven't played lots of armies but I think I can handle them. 50 Seaguard anyone?Mikael.K wrote:What I gather from the above mentioned battle reports (O&G and VC) and from personal experiance is that armies with just a few big blocks and very little support have a hard time vs combined arms/magic heavy armies.
All in all is that unit sizes or horde formation depends on what army one is using, but what all have in common is that support units are maybe more important than ever before.
I'm not sure getting those third rank attacks is the only point of the formation. As mentioned in the tactics forum, wide formations tend to be better against templates. There are also times when you want to go wide with Stubborn troops, maybe to extend your whole battleline and overlap the enemy. I also remember Rob Lane making the point that while a unit might take casualties before it hits combat, it might not so much, especially if there are other threats heading towards the enemy. Maybe in this case the sheer points invested makes this less likely.Seredain wrote: the lion horde is also both very vulnerable to damage and very expensive, while only 8 or so wounds before it hits combat will render the wide formation useless.
Frenzy is not so bad now as you can restrain the charge. I think if this was a unit that had to chop up the enemy's best to be worth it then getting stymied by eagles would be a big problem. Firstly though, it's a glorified character bunker, those two can really help the army without getting into combat. Maybe it can afford to take the 1pt bows and fire off a few arrows! I'd be nervous of taking a charge from something like your cavalry bus though.Seredain wrote:This would be a powerful unit, SA. The ward save is excellent. Only problem I see (other than the vulnerable shaman), is that I wouldn't really want one of my most expensive units overrunning sacrificial eagles every turn! I think that, in an army already cursed by its uncontrollable elements, losing more control by taking frenzied units would be playing with fire. But then I'm used to disciplined elves.
I too agree with this. I can only see the Orc hordes discussed above working with good flank support.Mikael.K wrote:All in all is that unit sizes or horde formation depends on what army one is using, but what all have in common is that support units are maybe more important than ever before.