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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:59 pm 
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I've run an ETC verision with 2 ways of getting the points:

Drop 2 spears and the TC
Drop a bolt thrower.

Both are awkward choices I've had more success with dropping the chariot and spears but it is a loss i feel. I think losing a bolt thrower is probably loses you the least tactical options.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:24 pm 
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I believe that if you were to drop 2 White Lions, 2 Swordmasters and Bladelord upgrade then you could keep the number of units and tactical possibilities the army gives you while meeting 2400 points limitation. Sure, the size of these two units is very small then but it is what Seredain suggested when asked about his 2000 points version of this army.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Thank you, Marinero, for your kind comments- I'm pleased you've found this useful reading!

I haven't thought about this 2400 point issue too much - it's a bit of a humdinger. I did manage a 20-minute breakdown of my list to 2000 points earlier in the thread, as Swordmaster says (looking back, though, I'd probably swap out Lore of Shadow for High Magic on the Lvl 1 Mage). 2400, then...

Deciding on a 2400 Point Cavalry Prince List

After taking out the excess core troops, each of you has come up with a decent option and, having thought about it for the best part of 10 minutes, I'm not too sure which is best. Reducing the elite infantry, for example, is more comfortable at 2000 points, where the smaller units aren't at as much of a disadvantage. At 2400, though, 10 white lions and 12 swordmasters are vulnerable units, especially without the champion models to challenge out powerful characters when required.

Ok, my take is as follows:

1: Losing the 2nd repeater means you'll lose a great amount of force projection, which I've found incredibly useful, not only for taking stuff out (weapons teams, flyers, crossbowmen, knights), but also for forcing armies to come to me more often (opening up their flanks), or providing target saturation so enemy shooting is less likely to target my combat units. In terms of your shooting strength, swapping out some spears for more archers partly makes up for the lost repeater but, apart from anything else, your remaining machine could almost never operate independently of your archer units, effectively reducing its range to 30" unless you're feeling lucky. At close range, it would work well alongside them but certainly your choice of targets will be more limited.

2: Losing the chariot, meanwhile, means you instantly lose access to several killer-combinations. It's a cheap unit which will tip the balance in many combats and, crucially, is something you can use alongside any single other unit choice, providing excellent flexibility depending on what enemy list you face (full attack, check - it runs alongside the cavalry: counter-attacking defence, check - it runs alongside an infantry unit or guards the back-field of the army). Perhaps the clinching point is that losing the chariot loses you a capability which you can't replicate with other choices. Nothing makes up for its loss in terms of tactical flexibility in deployment (it's an extra drop), back-field cover and combined charges. At this stage, I'd therefore be reluctant to lose it.

3: Losing the elite infantry models perhaps damages your army's abilities the least. The fewer attacks they have can be covered by the fact that you still have the chariot to charge alongside them and, further, you have the Lore of Life Archmage to maintain their strength which, in part, makes up for their increased vulnerability. These units are already small, however, and I wouldn't enjoy making them smaller.

4: The final option you might consider is to surrender your beloved archmage, throw in a magic-defence mage instead (say, High Magic Level 2, Dispel Scroll/Annulian Crystal) and make the army itself bigger and better. This is obviously a bigger step than the options above and would quite significantly change the list, but at least you'd get to take more troops.

For me, I'd say that Option 3 was ahead by a whisker, but I'd have to think about it a lot more! I find these sorts of decisions tortuous. Luckily for me that usually means I put in enough effort to be sure I'm really happy with the list I end up choosing, but getting there can be a nightmare. :)

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Last edited by Seredain on Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:30 am 
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Thank you for the answers. Very difficult dilemma indeeed. Have you thought of dropping one of the elite infantry units and replacing it with a lion chariot? This way you would have a decent elite infantry with flaming banner, and a TC and a WLC to support the cavalry? It would look something like this:

* Prince, barded steed, dragon armour, shield, giant blade, helm of fortune, talisman of Loec, PP Pendant -286
* Archmage, lvl 4, silver wand (Life) - 270

* Noble, BSB, barded steed,heavy armour, dragon helm, dawnstone, amulet of light, great weapon - 188

* 30 Spears, FC, Gleaming pendant - 300
* 15 Archers, mus - 170
* 12 Archers - 132

* 8 Silver Helms, standard, musician - 205
* 5 Dragon Princes - 150
* 12 White Lions/Swordmasters (?), FC, Flaming banner - 220
* Lion Chariot - 140
* Tyranoc Chariots - 85

* 2xRBT - 200
* Great Eagle - 50

Total: 2396

However the elite infantry have always been aces in my games, so maybe at the end of the day I would go without a chariot though...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:53 pm 
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So far, I haven't thought about swapping out one of the elites for the LC. The reason they're so brilliantly good is that they work equally well in attack or defence. Taking them both along with the steadfast spears and all the knights/knight characters keeps my list flexible and provides a greater number of units likely to have a rank left at the end of combat - crucial for breaking enemy units (as described above). Also, I've spent lots of points on fast and aggressive things like the cavalry prince and BSB already - and so far it's always been enough for my needs. Taking more, as we've discussed previously, might overly emphasise my strengths at the expense of making my weaknesses more acute.

If you took the Lion Chariot though, you'd have one hell of an attacking wing! Scary. If you did it, I might take white lions over swordmasters, since your army would have access to a huge number of Str 5 attacks (the chariots, lance-cavalry), but relatively little in the way of Str 6 combat attacks (characters excluded). On the other hand, swordmasters would give you a higher kill rate against T3 infantry, improving your melee ability against horde armies while your flank goes to work. With the amount of target saturation you'd have going on, they're hardly likely to be the first target for enemy shooting, so their vulnerability to missiles would be less likely to come into play as a deciding factor.

Personally, I'd keep the infantry for an all-comers list, but the lion chariot is worth having a think about and definitely worth it if you really want to commit almost all-in to that flank attack. Charging alongside the prince and his silver helms, that unit would be terrifying.

One final thing: I know the silver wand is excellent on the archmage, but your magic defence is so shaky if you don't take a scroll. One decent spell (like the toughness buff cast by the Slann in that last game), and your attack can come grinding to a halt for at least a turn. With powered-up spells and fewer dice, preventing a single cast can be game-changing in 8th Edition. For only 20 points, then, the scroll makes excellent insurance to make sure your plans go ahead unmolested. On balance, I therefore regard it as far more important than the silver wand, which I've learned to live without, especially (as an aside) since I don't have the Banner of Sorcery providing the dice for the extra spell.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:42 pm 
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Hey, Seredain, I've got a question, but first I have to say this thread rocks =D>. Convinced me to buy the helm box. I also tried the prince in 7 dp's (deployed wide) and an infantry bsb. Sheer mayhem ensued, but they did die faster.
Anyway, the question: How would you scale the list upward, to say, 3000? 3500?
more chariot/elite/cav units? a whole new unit? bigger units?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:08 am 
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Fair points, worth consideration.. Thanks for your reply


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Marinero wrote:
Fair points, worth consideration.. Thanks for your reply

No probs man.

Vala.r.aukar wrote:
Hey, Seredain, I've got a question, but first I have to say this thread rocks =D>. Convinced me to buy the helm box. I also tried the prince in 7 dp's (deployed wide) and an infantry bsb. Sheer mayhem ensued, but they did die faster.
Anyway, the question: How would you scale the list upward, to say, 3000? 3500?
more chariot/elite/cav units? a whole new unit? bigger units?

Cheers Vala!

As for scaling up, I haven't really thought about it. I'd maybe be looking at getting an extra mage in there, the Banner of Sorcery, a few more elite infantry models (possibly an extra unit), a couple of more silver helms (a unit of 10 can stand alone - giving you more options in deployment), another repeater, another eagle, maybe another chariot... This is where my mind would be going. I haven't attempted it as yet - there are relatively few players out there with that many points in painted models. If I do get the chance to play a large game, though, I'll obviously post it here!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:40 pm 
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I believe it is about time we receive some new insight based on some new game experience. :) Any chances for a battle report soon, Seredain? Or anybody who wanted to try their version of Cavalry Prince army?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Already on it, SM - I'm playing an Orc & Goblin army this weekend. It's looking to be orc infantry-heavy with fighty characters, chariots, boar boyz, a giant and at least one unit of night goblins. Should be interesting...

*Remember the camera*.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Excellent match! It is the new army book after all so not only a nice battle report on the way but also a proper review of the new army. Can't wait! :)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
orc infantry-heavy with fighty characters,

Lots of high strength attacks then...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Yep, along with high toughness, cheap T4 hordes, cheap impact hits...

On the plus side, I should be able to outmanoeuvre him well enough to crush a flank, and he hasn't got that much shooting in his list to put that move under any serious pressure. His chariots are a worry, but I think 2 out of the 3 are wolfies - so my archers and repeaters will nab them in short order. I think my core can handle the giant just fine. Magic phase is looking like a single goblin - presumably a lord-level one. My money's on the Feedback Scroll...

The ultimate tactical decision will be which flank I go through: do I meet his Boar Boy unit (I know it's big and carries a BO hero), head-on with my cavalry, or do I fend them off with defensive units and missile fire while all my knights and chariot punish a soft horde of orcs on the far flank?

My gut tells me to go for the boar boyz first. They're the only cavalry in an otherwise full-on infantry list. He'll probably stick them out by themselves, allowing me to take a big chunk of points before the rest of his troops are in charge-distance.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:23 pm 
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I have a question: Why do you use the Giant Blade for ** points instead of using a great weapon? Is the extra +1 to strength worth that many points when you can take a great weapon and still have asf?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:56 am 
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Seredain wrote:
Yep, along with high toughness, cheap T4 hordes, cheap impact hits...

It's the new Choppas rule that caught my eye. So things like S5 Big'uns with spears, S7 GW etc..

Seredain wrote:
Magic phase is looking like a single goblin - presumably a lord-level one.
The Little Waagh's quite tricksy now. Top spell's a Vortex that could be unpleasant for us and there's some stuff like movement hexes.

Seredain wrote:
My gut tells me to go for the boar boyz first

Yeah if you can kill his mobile hammer early you should have the movement phase in the bag.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:24 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
It's the new Choppas rule that caught my eye. So things like S5 Big'uns with spears, S7 GW etc..

I think I can whether the first round of most combats by killing enough orcs to render their replies far less potent. Orc spears don't bother me - I have more shooting than him, so it's in his interest to charge and, fortunately for me, lose a rank of attacks in the sme round that he gets the strength bonus. Big 'Uns or Black Orcs with extra choppas, though, are definitely scary!

And do you know what's scarier? This Black Orc Warboss I'm looking to cut down is likely to just tank up (so we're looking at Silvered Steel, Ward Save), and use his great choppa. That's Strength 8 attacks in the first round of combat. Ouch!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:24 am 
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Seredain, your posts adds that extra level of sophistication and deep insight to this forum. Thus, I’m in the process of collating the highlights of this thread into a single concise “Calvary Prince manual” which can be read over easily.

I have done some play testing of my own using the principals espoused by the Cavalry Prince list. I have stopped taking Calvary in recent times against my VC friend because I’ve found that he would often counter my flanking cavalry by advancing forward with the nearest big block (or raise a zombie unit to block) and angling it in such a way that I can only get a frontal charge on him with 2 units. Mind you this was back in 7th edition without forced marches within 8”. This buys in time for the rest of his units to engage my infantry centre w/o my flank participating during the crucial turns.

This would often leave my flanking cavalry unit facing an awkward direction with after elimination this roadblock, having to spend another turn moving and rearranging to charge his centre. I suppose in this edition with immediate reforms post battle (can you still fast reform if you wipe out his unit in subsequent rounds assuming you couldn’t demolish it completely in the round you charged?) I would have to spend one turn killing the flanking unit then reform to face the next block.

From a tactical movement and positioning perspective, are you able to explain how to fully maximise the flanking impact of your cavalry through movement and positioning? E.g. spend turn 1 & 2 moving deep into his flank, reposition on turn 2 to prepare a charge so that his block cannot angle to accept charges from 2 units to the front only? Proper manoeuvre and execution has always been a sticking point for me so many thanks advance.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:16 am 
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Seredain wrote:
I think I can whether the first round of most combats by killing enough orcs to render their replies far less potent. Orc spears don't bother me - I have more shooting than him, so it's in his interest to charge and, fortunately for me, lose a rank of attacks in the sme round that he gets the strength bonus. Big 'Uns or Black Orcs with extra choppas, though, are definitely scary!
I forget that your list has the raw killing power to do things mine doesn't. Getting stuck in combat with a Big'un spear block would be a nightmare for me! I would need to do a number on the block first with Curse or Flames maybe.

Seredain wrote:
And do you know what's scarier? This Black Orc Warboss I'm looking to cut down is likely to just tank up (so we're looking at Silvered Steel, Ward Save), and use his great choppa. That's Strength 8 attacks in the first round of combat. Ouch!

It's tight isn't it? How dare he have WS7? :) Do you go for Loec first round? If you only take one wound you can finish him with it in round 2 but I guess one unit might not be there then.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:19 pm 
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Can I just start by saying what a fantastic post this is. Well done! You actualy made me register after many years of just lurking. :o

I've read all 7 pages, but Im in the family room so if Ive missed something, its because I have been distracted. I apologise in advance.

Fist off, I noticed you often refered to flank charges removing steadfast if you have enough ranks. As far as I am aware the only way to remove steadfast is for you to have more ranks then the enemy. The flank charge would only negate the enemys rank bonus, not its steadfast. Unless I missed something somewhere :P Spearelves in the front for example :wink:

Anyhow, back onto why Im here. I love the list, it looks nice, and I mean on the table. Theres a nice variation in models to keep me interested as a painter. Its been a good year or more since I used my HE force, and I have been looking for a way to resurect them. Now the normal game around here is about 3000pts. I was wondering what you would do to bring it up to this level?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:07 pm 
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All i can say is a big thank you, this one good read given me loads to think about. I have printed the whole topic off (much to the annoyance of my good lady wife) and busy highlighting bits and pieces. Thanks once again for an insightful post.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Thank you for the kind comments guys!

Soulshade wrote:
Fist off, I noticed you often refered to flank charges removing steadfast if you have enough ranks. As far as I am aware the only way to remove steadfast is for you to have more ranks then the enemy. The flank charge would only negate the enemys rank bonus, not its steadfast. Unless I missed something somewhere :P Spearelves in the front for example :wink:

It's not that the flank-charge iteslf breaks steadfast, it's just that it's a good way of getting more models into base contact with the enemy unit (if it has a narrow frontage), and inflicting more of the casualties you'll need to break steadfast. Having that spare rank of your own simply means you don't need to kill as many enemy models to break steadfast than if you had no extra rank at all. All this is covered at the beginning of the Breaking Infantry Hordes section on p.6.



In other news, I played a battle against Orcs and Goblins yesterday and had a fully functioning camera. Battle report is on the way...

In the meantime, here are a couple of pictures of the list I took before we deployed.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:06 pm 
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Battle Report - High Elves vs Orcs and Goblins - Seredain vs Gnashrak Ironhide

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The Lists

High Elves

Seredain
Prince- Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Plucker Pendant, Talisman of Loec - 286

Lecalion
Level 4 Archmage - Dispel Scroll, Lore of Life - 280

Caradath
BSB- Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190

35 Spearelves- Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 345
14 Archers, Musician - 159
11 Archers - 121 (Archmage here)

14 Swordmasters- Bladelord - 222
12 White Lions- Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 220
8 Silver Helms- Musician, Shields - 192 (Prince and BsB here)
5 Elean Champions [DPs] - 150
1 Chariot - 85

2 RBTs - 200
1 Eagle - 50

= 2500 points

Orcs & Goblins

Black Orc Warboss- Lots o' Choppas, Armour of Silvered Steel, Dawnstone, Potion of Toughness (with Black Orcs)
Night Goblin Great Shaman- Level 4, Feedback Scroll (with Night Goblins)
Black Orc BSB- Lots o' Choppas, Armour of Fortune (with Orc Horde)
Orc Big Boss- War Boar, Light Armour, Sword of Strife, Enchanted Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness (with Boar Boyz)

40 Orcs- Extra Choppas, Light Armour, Boss, Musician (10x4)
30 Orcs- Spears, Light Armour and Shields, Full Command (6x5)
50 Night Goblins- Spears and Shields, Full Command, 3 x Fanatics

16 Black Orcs- Lots o' Choppas Heavy Armour
11 Big 'Un Boar Boyz- Spears, Light Armour, Shields, Full Command
1 Giant
1 Boar Chariot
1 Wolf Chariot
1 Wolf Chariot

Spells

I rolled the exact same spells as last time: Awakening of the Wood, Shield of Thorns, Throne of Vines, Dwellers Below.
The goblin great shaman got: Gork's hex (one of my units re-rolls 6's for hitting and wounding), Blessing of the Spider God (poisoned attacks buff), Sneaky buff (AP attacks, more nasty buffs if they get flank/rear charges), Curse of the Bad Moon (vortex- moves 4d6, 1 wound casued if stat test failed - either S, T or I).

Deployment

Orcs
Image
The orc player had one less drop than me, so got his army down first. Unsurprisingly, I was staring at an unbroken line of tough orcish infantry with chariots in support. His right flank was held by the solid block of orc spears and his left was a wicked combination - carrying the Shaman, fanatics, giant and scary boars. I had hoped to tackle the boars early with my prince's knights before moving through into the Orc horde, but the presence of the fanatics made me less keen on this plan. Further, the presence of the large farmstead (which you see at the bottom right corner), limited access around this flank in conjunction with all the nasty units. So, I decided to play defensive against this flank and have my cavalry attack where the orc army was most open and least manoeuvreable - around their right flank, on my left.

High Elves
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So, from left to right: A great missile base on the crest of the hill to punish the orc lines as they advance. Boar boyz and wolf chariots are the main targets, as well as fanatics if they get too close. The spears stand ready to hold against against the greatest threat and protect the archmage, who'll aim to Dwellers the orc horde into oblivion. If the spears need to move right to counter the boars, the archers will stand in against the night goblins (along with the eagle I can expect them to hold for a bit).

My attacking arm consisted of alternating infantry and cavalry in a chequerboard formation, with my prince's knights (my final drop), overlapping the orc army on my left. The cavalry deployed forward so as to be able to take advantage of failed animosity tests which might cause breaks in the orcish line, while the elites followed on behind threatening the orc infantry but protected by the faster elvish units against chariot attack.

The middle of the battlefield consisted of an open centre framed by a building on my left (with a wood 12" beyond by the left table edge), and the farmstead on the right. Between the farmstead and my large hill stood a small wood, visible here on the left.

The orc hordes won the chance to go first, bellowed their war cries and surged into the field...

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Last edited by Seredain on Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:39 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:31 am 
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I love your Prince, he's fantastic!

Rather like the battle standard too...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:52 am 
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I like Spearelves a lot. :) I am looking forward the pictures of both armies deployment. Always enjoyed the view of small elite force lined up against numerous horde. Can't wait to read battle report too, so please, do not make us wait too long! :)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:50 pm 
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Wow, great effect on the SH bus! You made your general match the unit, but still stand out from them by painting with brighter colors. It's almost like hes glowing from within and shedding light onto a world of darkness, which I am sure is a similar effect to Alexander's aura if even half of the stories and myths about him are true...

Also great job creating and maintaining this post! I've really enjoyed reading it (though my dissertation has not enjoyed it). I had a similarly fielded cav force before, but you really taught me some new ways to use them.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:55 pm 
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I can't wait to see how you manage such an explendind orc horde!!!

I think that the orc would miss some rock lobber or doom diver to shoot at your cavalry...

cheers!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:58 am 
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Orc Turn 1

Movement: All the orcish units kept their discipline and failed (as I saw it), to succumb to any animosity. The boar boyz and giant moved forward apace on my left while the rest of Gnashrak's infantry came on in an unbroken line. The chariots sheltered behind them, covered nicely against the sharp eyes of the elven archers readying their bows on the lower slopes of their hill.

Magic: The great shaman drew upon a respectable amount of dice, threw up Gork's hex on the 14 archers, clouding their senses, but failed to throw the Bad Moon at my lines. He scratched his head and wondered if he'd got the incantation right...

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The Big 'Uns and 2-'Eaded 'Arry thunder forward, all fighting-mean and filthy.

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The hordes advance.


High Elf Turn 1

Movement: The prince's cavalry had two choices as to how best to encircle the orc battle-line. They could either march straight forward around the outside of the house to their front, or move up to the house itself, stop and face into the centre of the field. They chose the latter course for two reasons. Firstly, if the knights moved up on the outside, the orc spears would, inevitably, move to cover the rear of their army. My knights would chop through them in a couple of turns (if the orcs held on steadfast 7 for the first round), but the orcs would be free to position themselves in such a way as to draw my knights away from the rest of the fighting when they finally broke. The second, crucial point was that by parking his knights by the house, Seredain would threaten the flank of the Warboss's unit as they advanced. The spears would therefore have to advance in order to cover him, thereby leaving open the back door to the rear of the orcish army..

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Seredain feints towards the centre of the field, drawing the orc spears forward to protect their master's flank.

To give time for their lord's plans to come to fruition, the Elean Champions moved back slightly- awaiting their opportunity, while the swordmasters advanced and turned to begin the overlap of the orcs' right flank. All the elven troops on and around the hill stood firm, but the great eagle swooped forward into the farmstead below. Upon seeing this the eager night goblins released their ubiquitous fanatics. One, heading for the eagle, smashed into a farm building while the other two were pushed straight forward towards the far-flung elves- an unimpressive 4 and 6 inches respectively.

Magic: Lecalion had decent luck with power dice but none with actual casting: Throne of Vines was dispelled and a long-range Dwellers thrown against the great orc horde failed altogether.

Shooting: Even as they chuckled at the prospect of those ridiculous fanatics holding up their own advance, the elf archers let loose, dropping 5 night goblins and wounding the wolf chariot on my right, despite the cover provided by enemy troops. The bolt throwers, though, had the more serious task of trying to save this vulnerable flank from the orcish cavalry. They quietly took aim and unleashed a hail of bolts... Three boar riders crashed to the ground and tumbled backward through their own ranks before the other orcs lost their heads, panicked and fled away as fast as they could! A huge cheer rose from the elven lines as the orcish elites turned tale. On the far side of the field, the elven prince whispered a prayer of thanks to the gods.

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The High Elves unleash hell...
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...and the boar boyz can't stand the heat.


Orc Turn 2

As the boar boyz finally began to rally, wondering why they hadn't brought a gleaming pennant with them, the night goblin fanatics made a nuisance of themselves. One careered towards the High Elf archers, but not very far, while the other spun right infront of his Warboss's black orcs. Stumped and unable to advance further for fear of being smashed apart, the furious black orcs started muttering dark threats about them ****ing goblins and a practical instruction in the use of proper weapons. All other units were free to advance, however, duly passed their animosity tests and came on, including the orc spears, who marched up to the house and angled slightly so that their front was presented towards the swordmasters. The boar chariot moved around the black orcs toward the orc spears, while the wolf chariots lined up to shoot the errant fanatic. The giant marched as fast as he could toward the archers hoping to put the 'shooty fings' out of action.

Magic, and once again the great shaman hexed the 14 archers, but didn't manage anything else, trying at a big Bad Moon but failing to cast. More head-scratching seemed to be the only solution.

As for shooting, the wolf chariot crews weren't on good form, thudding a few shafts into the ground around the still gleefully spinning fanatic.

High Elf Turn 2

Having drawn the spear-orcs forward as planned, the silver helms quickly reformed to the sound of a blaring horn, turned and moved around the outside of the house on my left flank. To prevent the orc spears from simply turning around to cover my move, the swordmasters and champions moved forward, just close enough to tempt the orcs into an unlikely long-range charge against the swords and certainly close enough for the champions to threaten a charge on them in my following turn. The chariot moved up slightly to cover the advancing boar chariot. The white lions and spears moved forward very slightly to protect Lecalion's archers from a charge by the oncoming horde, but otherwise they just gritted their teeth and awaited the inevitable onslaught.

The High Elven archmage had other ideas, however. Lecalion raised himself up on a Throne of Vines before using all his available power to cast Dwellers Below against the orc horde. The frantic goblin shaman could do nothing to stop the sheer force of elemental magic, the earth erupted, and 19 orcs and their battle standard bearer were dragged to their deaths. A desperate attempt to bring the elf mage down with the feedback scroll ended in only one wound being inflicted. The elf lines erupted with vengeful shouts of triumph.

Elf archery aimed to add to the success, but the right-hand wolf chariot made a miraculous number of saves to fend of the hits they managed. The repeaters did better, however, thudding a shower of darts into the giant's chest and wounding him three times.

Orc Turn 3

The errant fanatic found himself truly blessed by Loec, for he added to the trauma being suffered by the horde of choppa orcs by chaotically bludgeoning his way through their unit! More orcs fell. The other fanatic continued to drift his way toward the High Elf bolt throwers, but only moved about 5".

The orc commander decided that he had to act before his army melted away. The giant charged the 14 archers, but they fled to safety beyond the steadfast spearelves, leaving the giant to stumble forward infront of the repeaters. What was left of the orc choppa horde charged successfully into the front of the spearelves but the 30 orc spears, on my left, failed to close with the swordmasters and just moved forward 4". The boar chariot responded by maintaining its place in the gap between the spears and the black orcs, who now marched as far forward as they could to make up for the previous turn they'd spent standing still. The orc commander, fearing the large block of elven knights moving around the flank of his army, setup a counter by moving his wolf chariots directly behind his black orc unit, covering the rear.

While all this was going on, greenskin discipline failed on their left flank. The boar boyz, perhaps unwilling to close with those deadly bolt throwers, started a fight with themselves so they'd have something less dangerous to do. The night goblins, too, decided that fighting amongst themselves was easier than fighting the High Elves, and so condemned their great shaman to a turn spent rucking rather than casting any spells.

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The formerly solid orc battleline ruptures as High Elven magical power and greenskin indiscipline take their toll.
We've made a slight mistake here - the night goblins have made a march move in this picture (landing on the errant fanatic and suffering some casualties) but, when the orc player realised he'd forgotten animosity, he moved them back and replaced the lost goblins and fanatic too. The goblins then tested for animosity, failed and are actually stood back beyond the farm building.


Combat saw the spearelves thrust hard into the oncoming orcs, skewering five. Four elves were killed in reply, but their strong formation held firm and they pushed hard with their shields, first dislodging the orcs from the hill and then driving them onto the plain, where the elves finally broke ranks and coldly butchered the remainder.

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The elven phalanx holds firm...
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...and then drives the enemy from the crest of the hill.


High Elf Turn 3

While the 14 archers rallied, the rest of the High Elven forces decided to exploit their good position by declaring a full attack all along the line. The Swordmasters and Elean Champions surged forward and smashed into the orcish spears while, alongside, the chariot charged the boar chariot to pin it and prevent it from counter-charging my knights the following turn if the enemy spears held. On my right, the spears found themselves exposed out in the field. Fanatics now surrounded them on two sides but, worse, both the giant (pearing over the trees to their right) and the black orcs would be able to charge their flanks next turn. The spears had two options: to move in such a way as to best defend themselves (ie by moving away from the black orcs and towards the giant), or to charge the night goblins. This would mean landing on top of a fanatic and taking 2d6 hits, but would put them out of reach of both the giant and black orcs while providing me with the best opportunity of killing the great shaman. Casting fear aside, they declared their charge and, despite taking three or four casualties from the dying fanatic, crashed home successfully into the fearful night goblins. The eagle joined them, swooping in with a charge on the goblins' right flank.

As all these charges hit home, the white lions withdrew a little to keep the Black Orcs at just under maximum charge-range, again hoping to encourage the enemy to try and fail a charge. Lecalion, by contrast, left his archer bodyguard and marched straight forward 10" to get away from the giant, out of the charge-arc of the black orcs and closer to more targets for his spells. Seredain and his knights completed their move around the building and into the back-field of the enemy army, fearless of the chariots arrayed against them. As I saw it, an average of 7 impact hits was not enough to turn the tables here - in any case, my characters would smash those chariots once they'd hit home.

And that was if elven shooting had nothing to do with it. Keen-eyed archers were, despite the distance and interposing black orcs, able to manage enough hits on 6's to finally claim the right-hand wolf chariot. The bolt throwers had a naff round, however, aiming big bolts as the giant closed in but missing with one and failing to wound successfully with the other. Next turn would bring the pain for them. Magic was all but an aside this round - few dice were rolled and no spells got through for the elves, though Lecalion did still have his throne up.

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As the elven spears crash into goblin ranks...
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...the swordmasters, champions and chariot thunder into combat...
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...and the door of the trap begins to swing shut.

Combat on the right flank ended in stalemate as the eagle and spearelves triumphed in combat but were unable to inflict more than a wound on the great shaman or break his steadfast night goblins, despite their break test being rolled against a rather rickety Ld 6. Likewise the elf and orc chariots only managed to wound each other once, the latter holding. The combat on the left flank, though, was a different matter. The swordmasters and champions drove their charge home and did bloody work against the orc spears, killing 17 and reducing the unit to just 13 models. The shell-shocked orcs could only manage 2 kills in reply, easily broke formation and were cut to pieces, the champion cavalry riding hard to finish them before smashing into the side of the engaged boar chariot. The swordmasters, for their part, stood their ground when the killing was done, reforming to face the black orcs.

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As the rival spear columns struggle against each other...
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...the orcish flank collapses under the terrible assault of the elven elites.
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The Black Orcs begin to cut a lonely figure as the White Lions look on.


Orc Turn 4

My opponent tried to get his general's unit out of trouble by declaring a charge against the white lions, but the distance was too great and the charge failed. The remaining wolf chariot, however, made it into my silver helms and the giant charged my right-hand repeater bolt thrower. The boar boyz marched up again on my right flank, managing to get about as far as they'd managed on Turn 1.

Magic, and the night goblin shaman was clearly praying for lots of power to save his own neck, since he rolled a mighty 10 dice. He then proceeded to spend all of them trying to buff his unit and curse the spearelves. The goblins were indeed successfully buffed with both poisonous and armour-piercing attacks, but Gork'll Fix It on the spearelves was scrolled. A successful casting of Bad Moon killed a few elves, but, despite the beating they'd taken during the course of the battle, they still had more than 20 of their number left (I think 23 or 24?), enough for a full set of attacks in the coming fight.

Combat saw the giant take the simple option and yell and bawl at the stunned repeater crew, who nonetheless decided to tough it out and stay put. On the the other side of the field, however, the charging wolf chariot was smashed to pieces by the furious elf prince, without taking so much as a knight with it. The combat between the spearelves and the goblins was more brutal. Now that they were fighting in 4 ranks, the spearelves and the eagle butchered a good number of goblins and, crucially, also killed their great shaman. With the shaman's last buffs still raging the gobbos (who'd passed their fear test again), managed a fair number of wounds back but, in the end, the elves were too fierce and the goblins broke on an even more rickety steadfast Ld 5. The eagle set about hunting them down and the 20 remaining spears reformed to face the impending combat in the centre. My entire army was now bearing down upon the orcs' Warboss and his bodyguard. Surely there was no escape.

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The spears give one last push, slaying the great shaman and forcing his minions from the field.
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The advancing High Elves prepare for the killer blow.


High Elf Turn 4

Every unit around the black orcs charged home: white lions in the front, swordmasters and chariot in the flank, champions and silver helms in the rear: probably the best combo-charge I've ever pulled off!
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The High Elves bring swift death to their enemies

Other movement saw my archers wheel round together to form a line facing the giant, ready for when he was disengaged from combat. In the magic phase, Lecalion threw up shield of thorns on the silver helms for good measure.

But it wasn't needed. The slaughter was total. In all, the elves who were able to fight inflicted enough wounds to kill 40 black orcs. Presumably the 16 which actually stood there were utterly cut to pieces. As for the Warboss Gnashrak, Seredain pushed through the carnage to tackle him personally (much against his better judgment!). As the great heroes clashed the elf prince prayed to Loec to guide his blade. He cleaved the great orc twice though was unable, frustratingly, to land the killer blow. In reply the orc swung his immense sword (Str 8!) and smashed the elf prince, likewise, twice. If both wounds penetrated then Seredain would die... Odds-on he'd save one and live but, in the end and with the blessing of the gods, I rolled one 6 on the first two AS rolls and then the other, saving both wounds! As for the crippled orc warlord, he was utterly overwhelmed by the level of his defeat. Even as he broke and ran Seredain smashed him to the ground.

The giant once again proved inefficient at demolition, headbutting the repeater he was fighting and inflicting only the single wound. The crew, for their part, taught him a lesson and stabbed him in the head, putting him down to 2 wounds.

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The victorious elves surround a mountain of orc dead.


Orc Turn 5

It was all over but, at this stage, the orc player had received no victory points at all and he was determined to get some! The boars were out of it so it was down to the giant to do something. He finally got his act together, realised that his club had a purpose and smashed the repeater to bits.

High Elf Turn 5

Unfortunately this is exactly what the elven archers and the other repeater, now at point-blank range, had been waiting for. They unleashed a storm of arrows and the giant crashed to the ground.

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Thud!

The result was a total victory for the High Elves - truly crushing. As they realised the scale of their achievement, the air trembled as the most enormous battle cry erupted from the whole elven army. This day was truly worthy of song.

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Victory to the High Elves!

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:23 am 
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Huzzah! :3

More of these reports, please. Also, paint all your bases one color! Its playing havoc with my OCD. :3


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:00 am 
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What an epic game! Kinda felt sorry for your opponent, hopefully he was a great sportsman anyway and not a sore loser.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:01 pm 
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It was indeed worthy waiting for! Thank you very much for that report and the fact you didn't keep us waiting too long :) I will read and re-read that report many times for sure. So just let me write my comments for now, as a way to thank you for writing up the report (and not forgetting your camera too!).

O&G Army composition

We know your army very well by now and what is the initial plan on your part. It was very interesting, though, to see what army your opponent is going to bring to the field. Especially that he has a new army book to choose from. Personally, I find it difficult to predict the composition of greenskin horde, due to their huge amount of units in the army list. If you don't know the opponent you can expect multitudes of combinations. However, I was hoping your opponent might have Arachnarok spider as I wanted to see that beast in action. Ah well, maybe next time :)

The army is obviously combat orientated. I really like his Board Boyz with Black Orc Big Boss. This unit can be devastating on the charge. The horde in the centre and big infantry units in general looked magnificent. At the beginning I was wondering how to bite that seemingly impregnable green wall. I also like how your opponent protected his chariots from harm. At least for some time you could not shoot at them (or had more dangerous targets).

However, lack of support troops, and especially artillery, seemed to make your flank maneuver much easier. No diverters, no need to worry about positioning your cavalry, so that it does not expose its flank to spear chukkas, etc. I am really curious if he is going to change much in his army list next time (as I am sure he wants revenge :)).

Deployment

Even knowing what you plan to do in general it was extremely important to get it right, as you discussed in your previous posts. Before I had a chance to see O&G army list I thought he might out-deploy you with more units than you have. It was not to be. His compact deployment was not surprise at all. So I believe there where two questions you had to ask yourself. Where is he going to deploy his Boar Boyz? And where would be better to deploy your Silver Helms? I must admit I was wondering about his deployment of Giant and Boar Boyz. Maybe that was his initial plan to destroy your shooters, as the rest of the army is slow while these two units can absorb some amount of damage and still do the job. On the other hand, it seems you gave him some hints about where your main cavalry unit is going to be. As you pointed out, on your east flank there was a piece of terrain which limited maneuverability. And other units were already on the west.

I was wondering why you deployed White Lions and Chariot so far away but during the course of battle it all seemed clear. At the beginning though I thought they might be too far away to be ready to support your cavalry and Swordmasters.

In general it seems to me you gained your advantage at this stage by out-deploying him.

Battle
Ok, let's start with comments about the game itself in not particular order :)

1. Obviously I was wondering how are you going to outflank your enemy. He was slower but it was not something done automatically. The move towards the building and then swift reforming and going around the flank and to behind the back of the enemy right was great. It really shows the opportunities swift reform grants you and how to fool your opponent. My first impression was that you are sacrificing your cavalry by parking it next to the building. But there was no intention to do so, just to draw the Orc spears forward. Then I was a little worried that this outflanking takes much too long but as you showed cavalry arrived just in time!

2. I had a nice opportunity to observe also how your other units co-operate with each other. Such moves like positioning Swordmasters just in maximum range for a charge but Dragon Princes just a little further are good example of that. Moving Spearelves and White Lions an inch further than Archers nicely blocked Orc horde from hitting them (obvious when you read it, not so in the heat of battle :)). Blocking charge with a chariot or Eagle contribution to the fight are also important examples of mutual support and finishing fights properly. It is one thing to know that you should do it but it is much better to see it done during the game.

3. I believe you had some luck in this game which helped you and left the impression of a one-sided battle. Failed panic test of Boar Boyz was definitely something you hoped for but obviously could not count on it happening for sure with Ld 8. Further failed animosity test rendered this unit useless for the rest of the game. Indeed, I believe in future battles Boar Boyz are going to find themselves waving this new and shiny banner :). It also seems fanatics did much more damage to their own army than to yours. Again, lack of cheap supporting troops which could charge forward and prevent the eagle from landing too close too early was obvious to me.

4. Your Dwellers was truly devastating. No wonder people do not like this spell at all. I believe you had a good chance to withstand the attack of the full horde of Orcs but it would be much more difficult and it would be you taking a break test. Sure, this was planned for, you risked miscast effects by rolling a lot of dice and Feedback Scroll could also kill your mage (although it seems that even with a spell cast with 6 dice, wounding on 5+ is not that great). Your mage healed himself later in the battle as if nothing happened. Truly, lore of Life is very useful. Speaking of magic, I was wondering if your opponent used the new Little Waagh! ability to steal your dispel dice. He managed to pull of some of his spells but there were no comments on that. How do you find new greenskin magic, by the way?

5. I was impressed by the effects of the combat where Swordmasters and DP defeated Spear Orcs. I should not be really surprised as I know from my own experience what Swordmasters alone can do. However, this is yet another example of what you wanted to highlight in your posts. With enough attacks the huge enemy infantry block can be reduced to insignificant numbers in one turn. And by combo-charging you can break it, destroy it on pursuit and combat-reform with other unit to position it so that it can immediately be ready for another charge next turn. I was just wondering, did you attack boar chariot with your chariot first? If you resolved Swordmasters+DP fight first, then if I am not mistaken, you could resolve Dp+Chariot fight in the same turn.

6. It was interesting to see how Spearelves perform during the battle. Despite the lack of Regrowth spell this time, they managed to keep their combat prowess all game. Sure, they had some luck with charging through fanatics but in the end emerged victorious. It also showed that against other core infantry they can prevail on their own. It does not matter they cost much more than night goblins with fanatics. They managed to protect the flank and push forward when required, defeating enemy units and not letting them to help isolated friendly regiments.

7. I like the fact that clearly every single unit contributed to the entire game constantly. It is nice to see shooting effective enough to kill a chariot and a giant. Viable targets for HE archery which didn't waste their arrows for horde. This is where magic steps in. All units orientated for combat did fight and to great success. Some of them, like White Lions and Silver Helms where committed only in the last moment but constantly kept pressure on the enemy. They didn't rush forward on their own, didn't flee from combat but patiently waited for their opportunity while close enough so that the enemy could not ignore them. A good example is when your opponent diverted his chariots. I understand his concern but then these impact hits would be much more useful against infantry. Maybe if he was more aggressive and try to charge all 3 chariots into any unit of your other than cavalry he might achieve more success. Diverting helped you to shoot at them and Silver Helms with characters were well equipped to receive a charge and still emerge victorious.

The last combo-charge was truly epic and a very fitting for the climax of the battle. At this moment the charge of a Prince was probably not necessary but the audience definitely waited for that :) 3 turns of maneuvering and finally the glorious charge. I was wondering though if it was not too risky to challenge Black Orc General. You were definitely lucky with 6's for armor save. I also presume he used Potion of Toughness too. On the other hand war gods favor the bold apparently and since your Prince was designed for such combats it would be inappropriate not to give him his well deserved moment of glory. Again it showed what huge amount of damage elven combat units can inflict. There is no unit which could withstand that! 40 wounds on their own! Not including bonuses for charge and flank and rear attacks. Yes, I do believe it is the best combo charge you have ever pulled off and it was a reason enough to do it. :)

Summary
I am going to repeat myself but I really enjoyed the report. I do hope it is just a nice beginning to see more of them. Would be great to see a re-match, and find out what your opponent learned from this crushing defeat.

Your army looks nice on the battlefield with its simple painting scheme. It would look even better if you unify the look of bases for your miniatures. Even painting edges and sides with the same color (no matter green or brown) would much improved the overall look.

Great job and Congratulations!

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