The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

[SpellArcher]

Good stuff Mr S. Very useful as I could be playing these guys soon! The second game especially. I find these Beasts difficult to handle and your imaginative play has certainly given me food for thought.

[pk-ng]

Seredain nicely played on game 2! Played a good game to claw some points back!

[Tetengo]

(ignoring the fact that he has an extra 5+ crew save which changes the odds slightly).

Just to clarify, Hydras (thankfully) don't get the stupid 5+ monsters and handlers save.


Well done for the second game! The first was unfortunate though. jwg20 has posted a much better written version of anything I could say so I'll leave it at that. Well apart from to say if you had concentrated your Helms & Prince on the Hydra, your archers could have focused on the black guard/corsairs. I'm sure you realise now but you've got a S7 prince, and S3 archers, and you used the high strength prince against low toughness troops, and the low strength bows against the high toughness hydra


Also I recently ran your list against a dual hellcannon, double death mage WoC list. I'm now going to shamelessly plug that report on the off chance you get enough free time to read it: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=40676

[Seredain]

Thanks for the comments chaps!

Jwg and Tetengo,

Your point about the hydra is suitably simple! Hence my immense irritation with myself for refusing to go with my usual game plan and use the prince to kill the big stuff first. Gargh. As it was, the (lazy) idea was for the helms to blast through the smallish core troops quickly and wrap around to hit the black guard (the irresistible searing doom alone put this plan in jeopardy). I thought that, together, the archers and repeaters should, over 4 rounds, have been able to handle the hydra. Looking back it seems like a needless risk when I had the prince (who, after all, specialises in this sort of thing): and that would have kept him close to the black guard too. Basically, my fear of the death-sorceress clouded my judgment on this one (making me deploy my prince far left when she was on my far right). Just because you have cavalry, doesn't mean you need to put it round a flank (I'll come to your report in a bit!). We all have bad days, right?

The white lions were a good spot Jwg, but it was actually never part of the initial plan to use them to wheel around the back. As infantry, they're too slow for that (especially against other elves). However, as things started to go very wrong on the left, the lions (who were positioned to swing towards the centre to help the swordmasters late game), marched up to provide support. The way I saw it then was this: I'd already lost my lords and I was behind. With the BSB alone and only the dragon princes and green archers to help out, with another couple of bad rounds of dice I stood to lose everything here and gain nothing. The white lions could turn the balance and keep me in it. I hoped that the shooting would dent the hydra into uselessness (my eagles were both still alive so I had lots of time) and that the swordmasters could go toe to toe with the blackguard once I'd put a round of shooting into them (I'd already Vaul'd the anti-shooting item on them). As it was, I broke the left without the lions' help, and my shooting did absolutely nothing until I popped the DE level 4.

Jwg, Pk-ng and SA,

I think I did play well against the beasts, but I also think that, no matter how well played they are, beastman chariots by themselves (one of the things we fear most about the army), can struggle against combined-arms High Elves. I had the ranged power, so he had to come to me, but I also had the faster units in the characters and knights. Run separately, that's 3 chariots my infantry doesn't need to worry about right there. An aggressive High magic shooting phase reliably takes out another 2, and eagles pick up the slack. With the doombull out of play, 6 chariots alone weren't enough of a threat with nothing to take out my machines or block my charges (something the harpies should have at least tried, although difficult to do against single characters).

Jwg are you sure about chariots not hurting friendly units they flee through? I just assumed my opponent was afraid of that: I've certainly never willingly left a unit sat behind my own chariot if I've thought I might need to run it away. Knowing otherwise is a big deal!

Bang on re. game 2 overall. My opponent didn't give me any hard choices or limit my movement in any way - not great considering the number of flyers he had - especially the doombull itself. I can understand him wanting to keep the carpet a secret early on but, by the time he revealed it, I was already heavily in combat and, if the doombull wanted to cross the open field to join in, he'd have to pass by my archmage, archers and repeaters. One thing I know, my opponent was very scared of the machines: I think they hindered his movement more than they should have (especially when they had all those chariots to worry about early on).

Great analysis as ever Jwg, and thanks everyone else for the comments so far.

[Shannar, Sealord]

One thing I know, my opponent was very scared of the machines: I think they hindered his movement more than they should have

I've found that in the end this is usually what decides a battle, especially against newer players. Some unit that gets over-estimated. And then the player works the whole game to avoid it, or commits to much to destroying it neglecting the rest of the army.

[Seredain]

It happens to the cavalry in my army quite often, but it's nice to add shooting onto the list of 'scary things'. With line of sight pretty easy to come by, you can often deploy repeaters in a way which makes them a real pain to get to and, against opponents who have reason to fear bolts, this can help to put the enemy army a little on the back foot.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Greetings Seredain!

Good to see you back and kicking! Thanks a lot for your reports! I will definitely comment on them but decided to wait for the full story I haven't even read comments by other members so that I am not biased. It is possible, however, I might add something what was already mentioned. Ah well, we will see. Hopefully you will not make us wait too long for another report.

Cheers!

[Seredain]

Cheers SM! I actually hadn't played for months before the latest tournie of last weekend and a preparatory game against Mallas' lizards (more on those later). Good to be back in the saddle. As ever, I'll be tired in the morning! Anyway, as promised...


GAME 3 - BRETONNIANS


Here is my final game of the last tournie SpellArcher and I attended a few months ago (since I have another tournie to report now, I had better get a move on!). The game was against a Bretonnian player who, at that time, was in 2nd place and, honestly, having played against Brets a few times I'd never seen an army quite like it. He had:

Lord – Heartwood Lance, Tress of Isolde, stuff (Heroic Killing Blow, re-roll to-wound rolls etc)
Level 4 – Heavens, Crown of Command, Ward Save (4+ I think), Stuff (anti-magic)
Level 1 – Life (I think?), Scroll
BSB – Banner of Long Charging
Paladin – 1+ re-rollable armour save
Paladin – 1+ re-rollable armour save

12 Knights of the Realm – Champion, Musician (aaaaalllll the characters here)
15 Knights of the Realm – Full Command

4 Pegasus Knights
5 Mounted Yeomen - spears
5 Mounted Yeomen - spears

2 Trebuchets

When I saw the army go down, I instantly thought that this hero-bus unit was just about the silliest I'd yet seen in Warhammer. Obviously it was designed to tackle other 8th Edition deathstars – especially since the comp at this tournament included severe limitations on Dwellers and other character-melting spells: all were held at bay by the allowance of Look Out Sir! saves. Sure, this meant that no-one would have their day ruined by an irresistible spell. But it also meant that people were free to put 6 characters into one unit without having to worry at all about the consequences. The question was now – could I handle it?

Spells

I had everything except Courage (which would actually have been brilliant against this list) and (infuriatingly) Vauls. He had the Comet, Iceshard Blizzard and the celestial buffs. The Life mage, meanwhile, had Shield of Thorns (I think).

Deployment

My opponent deployed his trebs well – to my right with a pretty good field of fire for each of them. In the centre however, behind a forest and sheltering from my repeaters, stood the pegasi and the fast cavalry in a little bunch – a bad move as we shall see. On each flank, facing inwards, were the knight units: 15 and a heroic 18 respectively. Obviously steadfast was going to be no good to me here (hence Courage would have been fantastic...).

For my part, deployment was fairly typical: silver helms, spears and swordmasters forming an alliance on the right flank, shooting units holding the centre and the dragon princes, with the green archers in tow, ready to run harassment / counter-attack duties on the left flank. The only piece of deployment especially designed for this game (putting my helms opposite his bus was an obvious choice, albeit they were in a long line to extend my line of sight and limit the damage from trebuchets), was the deployment of the white lions. They went right in the centre, between the repeaters, so they could bring their invaluable stubborness to either flank as necessity demanded (since the Brets were faster than me, I needed to be flexible). Hopefully the lions would buy my flanking units the time they needed to commit before the enemy burst into my backline.


Without being quite sure where the enemy are going to go, the High Elves opt for a stand-off in deployment.

High Elves Turn 1

Thankfully, and unjustly, I won the roll for first turn and duly decided to take it in order to prevent my opponent from grabbing board control early with his cavalry. Specifically, he'd deployed his yeomen badly – too close to the light eagle – and in a panic-inducing clump, too. I duly declared a charge against the nearest yeoman unit and watch it flee through both the pegasi and the other unit of fast cav. The latter then panicked and very nearly fleeing off the board. Whatever happened next turn, I wouldn't need to worry about cheap speedbumps.

The rest of my movement phase was nice and tricky. My left flank pretty much held its ground, the dragon princes adjusting slightly to ward off an aggressive move from the pegasi, but on the right it was all action. First, Seredain and Caradath galloped out of their knights and parked themselves out of sight of both trebuchets behind the large stone tower to my centre-right. The helms themselves then galloped full tilt toward the right-hand trebuchet. I was curious to know just how much my opponent wanted it to live and, in case he decided to let it go and march his bus up the centre, I advanced the spears toward the tower to cover the middle ground and give him something to think about. I thought he'd almost certainly want to get his knights the charge, and I doubted he'd stray too close at this stage.

I have no idea what happened in the magic phase. By my recollection, this is probably because my magic did precisely nothing. Shooting was little better – all the bolts and arrows in the world only killed a single pegasus knight.


The High Elves seize the initiative with a rapid advance by the silver helms and eagle.

Bretonnians Turn 1

Much to my joy, the yeoman unit which had just fled my eagle's charge promptly ran off the field. The other rallied but, since it had fled due to panic, it was unable to move this turn. More provocatively, the pegasus knights came on within long-charge range of the dragon princes, while the nearby knights of the realm moved up to counter any attack I chose to make in response. On my right the hero-bus, sure enough, chose to protect the trebuchet rather than advance on my lines and subject themselves to a possible charge from my heros and spears. The Bret column swung to its left and pushed on toward the helms, but not far enough (since its formation was so narrow) to seriously limit the elves' movement next turn.

Much like my turn, magic did very little as far as I can remember (the only important thing was that Comet was dispelled), so we should proceed straight to the shooting phase and the spectacle of two large stones, arcing high through the air toward the line of swordmasters and the deep phalanx of elven spears advancing upon the centre of the field. The trebuchet crews were disappointed, however: one shot landed behind the shallow formation of swords, and the other only clipped the spears, killing a few.

High Elves Turn 2

Since they had plenty of space in which to retreat, the dragon princes declared against the pegasi. Rather than allow me a chance at the 10” I needed, though, the pegs fled. The Caledorians duly failed their charge, the knights of the realm looking on in their left flank.

Since these knights were still some distance from my infantry, however, I felt that roadblocking with my brown eagle would be a waste. Instead, then, he landed next to them, just out of line-of-sight but within striking range of the last unit of yeomen. It also remained within easy blocking-range of the knights in the event of a failed charge against the white lions (since I was going to flee my dragon princes, the lions were the obvious target, albeit the gap was pretty large).

Meanwhile, having decided that their support was needed more at this end of the field (and to put as much distance as possible between Lecalion and the Bretonnian heroes), the swordmasters marched as fast as possible toward the lions. On the right, meanwhile, the wonderful power of musicians and high leadership showed itself off as the helms free-reformed into a 5x2 formation and skirted quickly between the narrow bar of the Bret hero-bus and the tower immediately to their left. Seredain and Caradath rode round the other side – that nearest the centre of the field – and rejoined them. The hero-bus now had a rather irritating choice: chase my characters about or press on and attempt to close with my infantry but, in the process, potentially expose themselves to a counter-attack further down the line.

Magic was, once again, rather subdued but did at least see a Shield go up on the lions, which made me feel much better about their abilities as an anvil. Shooting was again similar: a hail of missiles resulting in only 3 dead knights from the unit threatening the princes. 12 remained.


On the left, the dragon princes drive off the pegasi and tempt the knights of the realm into a hasty charge...


...while, in the distance, Seredain's cavalry easily outmanoeuvre their clumsy human counterparts.

Bretonnians Turn 2

As expected, the left-hand knights of the realm declated a charge against my dragon princes and, when they fled, redirected toward my lions. Annoyingly, they made it in and put my left under substantial pressure. I could only hope that the lion detachment would hold long enough for me to successfully organise an effective counter-attack – surely another two turns if the dragon princes were going to be involved. Shield had gone up on the right turn.

In the centre, the pegasi rallied and flew over toward the silver helms, though not far enough (once again) to cause them any serious harassment next turn. Interestingly, they formed a 1x3 formation, perhaps to minimise the damage done in the event of a charge by my helms (with a view to breaking from combat and forcing an inconvenient pursuit move as opposed to simply being destroyed on the charge).

For its part, rather than waste any more time chasing shadows, the hero-bus advanced around the tower and brought into view the spearelves, now distinctly nervous, and the rear of Lecalion's swordmasters.

Magic saw Lecalion fend off yet another Comet, but with all my dice gone an iceshard blizzard slipped through against my light eagle and, since it was flyer, killed it. There was no nothing to stop the hero-bus plowing into my spears in the next Bretonnian turn. Happily, shooting was less effective, both trebuchet shots scattering mercifully wide of their targets.

Combat, and a fairly critical one as the 10 white lions met the oncoming rush of 12 knights of the realm. Thankfully, with only 1 attack each and no re-rolls (har har), the knights couldn't put all that many hits through the Sapherian shield and, after all the hacking was done, only 2 white lions had fallen. Incredibly, however, the axemen themselves had done absolutely nothing: not a single knight, after a series of miraculous armour and ward save roles, had fallen. All the same, the elves were stubborn and duly held their ground – without the aid of the gleaming pennant.

High Elves Turn 3

The dragon princes, well aware that they were needed back in the game, rallied their steeds and pivoted to face the knights fighting the lions,as it turned out almost immediately next to them. I positioned them in a 3x2 formation so as to allow the blue archers a charge next turn (if I deemed it necessary to bring some fear-causing flaming attacks into the equation). To close the noose, the green archers marched up behind the Bretonnians, who now found themselves surrounded on 3 sides albeit still, at this stage, engaged only with one increasingly vital unit of elven axes. To compound the humans' woes, the swordmasters continued their long march and closed the gap to within easy charging distance next turn.

An equally nervy drama was playing out on the other side of the field. The brown eagle, sensing an opportunity for glory so rarely encountered by the sacrificial, successfully made a long rear-charge into the pegasus knights (and with only 1 knight in base contact, he had a good chance). Seredain, unconcerned, led the silver helms further around the tower until they faced the spearelves across the way. If the Bretonnian hero-bus burst into the plain now, I would have a charge on them. As for the spears themselves, it was hardly worth moving them at all. To move forward might cut off the option of a counter for my helms, but to move back would simply mean that, in the event of a break, they would perhaps flee off the board (this was not likely where they were stood. After closing the door onto the knights in the event of a charge – inevitable because of the long enemy formation and the obstructive tower – any break from combat would not take them straight toward the board edge but, rather, at an oblique angle into relatively open space. All the same, I didn't want to take any chances by shifting closer to the edge). So, the citizens resolved themselves, dug their spear-butts into the earth and awaited their fate.

Another mild magic phase saw Shield on the lions dispelled, but Arrow Attraction go up successfully on the hero-bus. The shooting phase, therefore, proved quite effective rather than a complete dud: the repeaters skewering 3 knights of the realm.

Combat and, after some more miraculous saves from the Bretonnians, the lions found that they had killed not a single enemy knight, before they themselves lost another 3 dead. Another couple of beatings like this and they'd be toast. They did, at least, hold their ground, but clearly I'd have to look to the eagle for glory. Sure enough, he took his chance. 1 successful wound was scored on the pegasus knights for 1 in reply, giving me a victory of 3. The knights duly broke, fled a pathetically short distance and were destroyed in pursuit. Was this an omen of things to come?


He'll remember this moment for the rest of his (short) life...


Seredain's knights lie in wait for the enemy, but all his brave spears can do is offer themselves up for sacrifice.

The eagle's escapade had been joyous but the plight of the spears remained troubling. My manoeuvre with the silver helms on Turn 2 had been fun but hadn't, of course, helped the infantry at all. As far as they were concerned, their general had simply cleared a path for Brettonia's finest knights to charge in and kill them all in the next couple of turns. Indeed, with hindsight, it may have been better to march the spears on against the central trebuchet, giving it an urgent (but affordable) target. Instead, however, I'd simply backed the spears up and left them hanging.

I had good reason, however. At the time, I hoped to tempt the Bretonnian hero-bus around the tower into my half of the table so that I could then hit it with a charge from the helms without, crucially, exposing them to the threat of a long charge from the Brets (since, I was sure, my own bus could not hold a charge from his). I therefore decided that drawing the Bretonnians out was more important than saving the spears and, sure enough, my opponent had taken the bait. Even so, I did not relish the prospect of seeing my (expensive) citizens destroyed. I could only hope that the sacrifice would be worth it...

[Elithmar]

Oh no, not another cliffhanger. Great game so far though.

I wouldn't worry about the spears. As long as they can hold for one round (okay, not easy) that character unit is doomed. The great thing about sandwiching them between the spears and the helms is that the lord won't be able to make way to the helms to put KB on your characters (I'm presuming he's in the front rank).

Nice traps for the knights. A question though - did you deploy the characters separately? I presume you did, as the helms marched turn 1 and they couldn't do that if the characters left.

Looking forward to the rest.

[Mallas]

Oh there you are Mr S.

I thought you had gone on a time warp.

Just wanted to thank you for all the knowledge I have gained from your expert tutelage and that I have finally posted my first HE batrep for the Angel Campaign.

Well I am all set for the WHW doubles weekend in November and plan on creating some batreps for all Conj's and my games, which will be exciting since we will be one of the only MSU teams there.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Seredain,

It feels good to be playing warhammer, doesn't it! I am in particular glad to see your reports back online since you always provide nice pictures of these great gaming tables and nicely painted armies.

To make it more interesting (at least for myself) I didn't read the comments of other forum members. I am going to see if I can make some valuable observations from your games being unbiased by the point of view of others. If I repeat what they have already said I apologize in advance for

Game 1 against Dark Elves

The army list does look interesting. The lord on foot among BG is a tough opponent already but since he is a pedestrian that also gives some more options for you, which were obviously limited by the usual "unkillable" lord. That, however, makes it understandable why this particular regiment was more dangerous. On the other hand the epic duel between both fighting lords would be ... epic I think your Prince had a nice edge to win that with Talisman of Loec on top of his already dangerous skills.

It is a nice thing to be able to consider different deployment options, also after the game. I still think the choice you made was as good as other two. You had your characters on the opposite flank so DE sorceress would have to fly through the middle of the table to get into range. And this was not exactly your opponent might want to risk even with Pendant. You had enough units to overwhelm the enemy there and turn to support other regiments.

Of course the very unlucky events where your opponent kept rolling 6's exactly when he needed them makes it look as a bad decision. The question here is - what could have been done differently to prevent that even if he got these IF's. Fate of Bjuna is short range spell. Was it possible to keep the Archmage far away enough so that even with flying ability of the sorceress she would be out of range to cast is turn 2? Was she in the position to be a target for shooting? Even with Pendant archers and RBT's can harm such character as you showed in the following turns by killing her eventually. Hence the question is more about when did you start to shoot at her

The shooting phase you had that game is the reason why I still prefer Lions to carry Banner of Eternal Flame. It was unlucky but with more drops during deployment you could still position Lions and supporting units in a way which would be hard for Hydra to avoid them or your opponent would be reluctant to go that direction. Which is also beneficial. Would that episode make you reconsider getting back to the previous set up?

It was a great come back and that in itself is worth a lot. It shows that even 1-2 strong regiments are dangerous. I am in particular interested in the combat against Cauldron. It can be deadly too with hags producing tons of attacks and blessings being used on itself.

In the end I would be happy with the result considering the fact that you were thrown into a very difficult situation from turn 2. It is easy to judge that the plan was not the best and that you should have attacked from the Eastern flank rather than from the West. You would not be targeted with Metal spell, you would not lose your Prince. Maybe. Or maybe you would lose him to Death spell instead of the archmage? I am wondering if the presence of the Prince was crucial in that situation or not. Ah well, the best thing would be to have a re-match and check that on the battlefield.

Game 2 against Beastmen

Another interesting army. These Beastie Boyz do have ways of creating them. They are not as underdog as people try to see them and they are definitely a force to respect. In this particular case so many chariots have an answer to our ASF, in particular in the case of small elite infantry. Flying Doombull is pain on his own so it is good he didn't have that relentless magic phase BoC can create too. But with Primal Fury and various buffs from characters and magic these units can dish out a lot of damage too.

Both deployments were quite interesting and indeed the terrain was very important factor here. It looked very intimidating to see all these chariots in front of horde regiments but I think it was not the best option for beastmen player in this game. I would rather form typical deep infantry formations and flank each block with a chariot so that they are counter-attacking force rather than living shield. With their long charge range they are still in a very good position to charge out if needed but are not exposed and not limiting the movement of the rest of the army. I also noticed that people use harpies (and other cheap redirectors) to recklessly. It really looks like they simply want to sacrifice them at the very first opportunity, no matter if there is a need for that or not. In the case of your opponent they would be much more troublesome if kept behind infantry and used later to slow down any attacking force of yours, characters including.

You showed that man times but in this game it just great use of characters. Despite the formation being static simple redeployment and moving solo threw your opponent off balance and he clearly didn't know how to tackle that problem. If they stayed with Silver Helms it would have been much easier for him to block them or even charge them to kill some knights. Excellent job!

That cavalry charge was great and I think your opponent didn't expect that (as he positioned harpies in a way that they were not blocking SH at all in that direction). While characters seemed to be close enough to have a reliable charge then the distance for SH was longer. Is it only the picture or was it 9"+ charge roll for them? It was a good call anyway as even with failed charge you still had eagles to block the enemy or even flee with SH, they are "only" 192 points after all

I also like how magic and shooting started to quickly melt Beastlord horde. It seems that BoC player made a mistake here dispelling Vauls as even without some of his magic trinkets he needed more bodies with him to keep being dangerous. Instead he was hit by Flames and Cursed. Losing 20+ gors per turn is really bad for even the most ruthless Beastlord and I could easily picture how your opponent started to lose any hope at that moment.

On top of stellar performance you didn't forget to entertain the crowd with a general's duel which pleasingly ended up in your favor quite quickly and dramatically for Beastlord.

Game 3 against Brettonia

That is indeed a Brettonian force from 5th edition where they were allowed 75% of heroes in the army. He only lacked Green Knight and Fey Enchantress in it But I presume no Special Characters were allowed. The advantage against such force is, provided he does not start running his characters individually, that you can easily outmaneuver them and get these trebuchets quickly.

His deployment was also interesting as usually Brets tend to keep close to each other. I guess his multitudes of heroes counted for something and approaching from flanks towards the center he could also ensure hitting on big target at the same time.

A question, why did you roll for the first turn? Was it a special rule for this tournament? Usually when Brets pray the opponent automatically gets the first turn.

We had a conversation with Hinge recently that people tend to protect their warmachines too much for their own good. I think your opponent would be much better with a single paladin detached to block SH or at least be able to counter charge after they kill the trebuchet while main lance could head forward. It also opened an opportunity for you to fool around with heavier and less maneuverable foe in the following turn.

And here we approach the moment when I realized that the long awaited continuation of tournament reports is not finished! Damn you, Mr. S! How could I be fooled so easily

Ah well, at least I produced a lot to read and who knows, maybe you will even address these comments along with the second half of the very enjoyable report.

Cheers!

[Lord Anathir]

As a newly formed bret player I found the last report interesting.

First, I quite like the character bus, but not to that extreme. What his list is lacking really is some more lateral mobility. I have 2 pallies in a 15 strong bus, but my HKB lord is on a peg which allows me to field 3 units of pegasus. The rest of the lists is just about the same. I think if he had more pegs to run around and threaten your squisy core, machines and mages he might have caused some more problems.

That said, I'm not sure why he felt the need to attack you. With that list I would've parked them in a corner, with the trebs behind, and just blasted away. He might blow up a treb but if he screens his fast cav theres no real way he loses any points unless you come up and charge him in the front. The character heavy bus of his can easily withstand swordmasters to the front, through 1+ save spam, blessing, and static res.

[Seredain]

Mallas,

You're welcome buddy. You did me a favour last game too - I played much better than I would have otherwise (but more on that later...). Send me a message when you're free for another game.

Elithmar,

The characters were deployed with the helms and the helms did march. Is that illegal? Hope not - I've been doing it for ages and no-one's said anything so far! I've been under the impression that the unit cannot charge but can otherwise move as normal. Don't have a rulebook infront of me but please correct me if I'm wrong!

I wouldn't worry about the spears. As long as they can hold for one round (okay, not easy) that character unit is doomed.

I can tell you, I was definitely worried about the spears! I'll finish up shortly and we'll see what happens... It gets messy.

Swordmaster,

Fantastic write-up so far- thank you.

And you actually made me feel a lot better about Game 1. Truth is (and this is a mistake I've made both before and since), it's easy to get single-minded, deploy bearing in mind only the enemy magic phase, and have it ruin your plans or otherwise cloud your judgment. In this case, it was also pointless: a flying pegasus-caster can get where she needs to go with relatively little effort. If I may, I'll deal with your excellent post in more detail in my debrief once the report is finished (still got a little work to do).

That said, I'm not sure why he felt the need to attack you. With that list I would've parked them in a corner, with the trebs behind, and just blasted away. He might blow up a treb but if he screens his fast cav theres no real way he loses any points unless you come up and charge him in the front. The character heavy bus of his can easily withstand swordmasters to the front, through 1+ save spam, blessing, and static res.

An interesting idea! But I don't think it works. Although they can put holes in stuff, the trebs would be lucky to collect points by themselves. The Brets would need something to clean up those points. And for me, I have ways of carving holes into that hero-bus, if not killing it outright (unless it's a flank and the knights are engaged already, swordmasters won't do it). And then, the longer he stands still, the easier it is for me to pin (eagles) and charge.

We'll look at how that might go shortly... In any case, sitting back like that would not be a way to win big and place well in a tournie, even if he could win at all.

Your hero-bus is a more reasonable setup and I like the idea of more pegasi, but I don't know I'd worry that much about them. I think a High Magic shooting phase hurts them. It's also easy enough to defend repeaters from combat units, even flying ones, and the pegs can't get into combat with many of my units and survive. But then the flexibility would be nice alongside the HKB general (I like him - but I imagine cannons are a problem?).

[Elithmar]

Actually, I think again that I'm going mad.

I think it's okay to have characters leave a unit and then have the unit move, but just that a unit cannot move that turn after a character joins it. Sorry, you're right.

[Seredain]

Bretonnians Turn 3

With a blare of horns the hero-hammer declared its charge but, to my surprise, against the swordmasters rather than the spears. Not wanting to take the risk, and figuring (with a dragon prince charge next turn) that I had the 12 knights of the realm combat in hand, I fled the swords through it and watched them pop safely out of the other side. The Brets then took their redirect and crashed into the waiting spearelves.

A stronger magic phase than previously saw a very strong cast of comet over the left-hand combat (which, with all my units gathered around it, I had little choice but to scroll), and then some other spells (I think a couple of nerfs on my helms), which didn't make it through because I had all my dice left.

Shooting and, once again, the trebs performed pretty sub-par. One misfired (but annoyingly was fine to shoot the following turn) and the other just missed the dragon princes (phew). This turn was going to be all about the combat phase.

Except that first, on the left, the lions and knights of the realm had a pillow fight and did pretty much nothing. Things were different, however, on the right. With only 1+ rr heroes or the Bret lord to attack, the spearelves did their best but were, unsurprisingly, able to do absolutely no damage whatsoever. And a whole host of them were butchered in reply. At the end of combat I had only 2 complete ranks left, in no way able to stand their ground against such an onslaught, and the remaining elves fled, a pretty average 8" or so. I was practically ready to reach out and take them off the table when my opponent, much to my surprise, chose to reform his knights to face the silver helms.

I say surprised, firstly, because in his position I would have wanted those 295 points. Perhaps wisely, however (and I don't think this was a sure thing given he had the crown of command and all those heroes to make way with), he decided that he couldn't risk a rear-charge from my own cavalry bus, and said as much. The spears, ineffectual as they obviously were, were of secondary importance. I was perfectly happy, however. The knights had dashed out and offered me a charge while, in points terms, achieving precisely nothing. Seredain drew his sword, cried Havok! and signalled the charge.

High Elves Turn 4

Eager to finally put themselves to the test, the silver helms charged in, lances lowered at full tilt. Seeing events turn like this the spearelves, amazed to still be alive, rallied. To my left, the dragon princes charged the flank of the knights of the realm while the green archers, having manoeuvred into position, charged the rear. The blue archers, for whom I had left a gap when rallying the princes, had in the end decided to hold their ground. +1 resolution for a rank (assuming I lost a green archer in combat), didn't seem worth it somehow.

But all this positive action was seriously marred by misfortune. Lecalion's swordmasters, having easily made it to safety, failed a Ld9 rally test and continued to flee. And how: a full 12" put them almost on the table edge. Yeeesh.

This was very bad news. I had no magic phase and, just as importantly, my opponent had no +5 dispel bonus to worry about next turn (and I had no scroll). Shooting was effective, at least, killing the remaining yeomen cavalry despite their cover behind woods (if it didn't all happen this turn, they were certainly dead by the end of next turn).


The trap is sprung on the left flank.


As serious fighting breaks out across the field the noble spearelves rally, but the swordmasters, oblivious, flee headlong for the table edge.


It's business time: the opposing commanders prepare to clash in single combat.

Combat and, finally, the white lions woke up and... killed a knight. Woo. The dragon princes and green archers together did absolutely nothing. Luckily, the knights of the realm were off their game too, killing 1 white lion and (annoyingly) 1 DP. This was no way near enough: the Bretonnians broke and fled away from the green archers (all 10 of whom remained) and I pursued with everything. Poetic Justice, however, dictated that it was the 3 remaining white lions who finally caught the knights, running a massive 11" and cutting them down, closing a large amount of distance with the hero bus in the process. The dragon princes, obviously having an off day, moved 2".

All eyes now turned to the epic clash of the army commanders and, with a simple salute, Seredain drew the enemy lord out for the challenge. But it wasn't really a challenge at all. I popped the Talisman of Loec. 4 attacks led to 4 hits, which led to 4 wounds. Strength 7 did the rest and, after all the saves, 3 wounds went through and the Bretonnian Lord fell headless from his horse. Meanwhile my other cavalry could only attack the heroes, but Caradath's attacks were included in this and, with the Other Trickster's Shard hurting the enemy ward saves, I was hoping to sneak some wounds. However, 4 helms couldn't even dent 1 hero (3+ re-rollable), and Caradath plus 3 others could only get a single wound on theirs. No matter, the enemy's retaliation was muted - I lost a couple of knights - and the combat was a victory. Steadfast, however, the enemy held. All knights, man and elf, drew their swords.

Bretonnians Turn 4

My opponent was peeved about his general but, with 2 trebs and a Level 4 still kicking (and mine still running), he wasn't out of it yet, and a helpful 10-dice phase promised much. Without Lecalion, I had to let something big through and, in the end, it was the Comet (another large role). A small dot appeared in the sky above the silver helms, and it was such a large role that I just conceded and decided to let it through. Seredain and Caradath could shrug off the hits, and fewer silver helms wouldn't mean the loss of any combat res (not against all these characters). However the other Celestial spells - effecting dice-rolls - would harm my characters' ability to kill stuff, so I was happy to stop them instead.

I was focussing all my attention on comets, but I should have been thinking about other flying objects. Although one trebuchet typically scattered off target, the other finally nailed it and simply smashed the swordmasters to pieces. Only 2 troopers plus the archmage were left standing. That was under 25% strength, so they'd need double 1's to rally. 517 points were about to run off the board.


Disaster! Aaaaaargh!

Revenge time. My opponent, done cheering, declared a challenge with his 2-wound hero and Seredain duly accepted. As my opponent was rapidly discovering, the Cavalry Prince loved nothing more than cleaving other knights. Seconds (and 3 wounds) later, another noble Bretonnian head cartwheeled into the mud, Caradath's shard doing good work (he was placed centrally, in base contact with all the Bretonnian front-rank models). Caradath himself couldn't match his commander, however, and failed to put the final wound on the remaining tank hero, who cut down another silver helm (leaving 5). The elves had lost combat by 1, but I easily held on Ld9 re-rollable.

High Elves Turn 5

Inspite of all my prayers, the snake eyes failed to appear and my archmage, with his remaining swords, fled straight off the table. Ugh. Obviously, I needed to get on cracking this hero bus and get those points. The 3 white lions and spearelves, now eager for revenge, all charged the last knight unit on the table.

And I think it was now that the comet hit the silver helms. The number of hits was catastrophic and, within moments, I had lost every single one of them. Appalled but resolute, Seredain and Caradath fought on.

Shooting was pretty much irrelevant (I think I put a wound on a trebuchet), so it was on to combat. In base contact with my characters now were the last Bret tank hero, unit champion and musician. The wounded hero nobly issued a challenge and Seredain duly cut him down (the shard again rendering the Bretonnian ward save irrelevant). Next to him, Caradath cleaved the unit champion from his horse while the white lions, delighted to show the humans how it should be really done, killed another couple, the spearelves perhaps stabbing one more to death. It was a massive win to the elves. The Brettonians held on their stubborn leadership with re-roll from the BSB + Crown of Command, but things were looking good for the High Elves.


Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide for the knights of Bretonnia.


Bretonnians Turn 5

Apart from lobbing rocks and spells, my opponent could do nothing now but stand and watch the action unfold - he was out of moves. In the magic phase he used all his 5 dice on the re-roll 6 hex and the re-roll 1’s buff. Since it would pertain to armour saves taken against my spearelves, I elected to dispel the latter with my 3 dice. Flying rocks then killed all but the last of my dragon princes (who thought very hard about running away but fortunately didn't go through with it).

Combat and, in base contact with my characters now were the enemy BSB, the level 1 and the musician. I was going to attack the BSB anyway so, to protect himself from taking more attacks than he needed to (and to save face), he issued a challenge. But before any words had left his lips, Seredain had cut him in two - a whopping 4 wounds. Caradath killed the poor damsel. On the knights’ flank my assembled units killed a couple more and took few casualties back (only 1 white lion remained!). By now it was obvious that the day was going to the elves, and the level 4 clearly knew it. With their Battle Standard dead, the Bretonnian knights agreed and couldn’t hold any longer. They broke from combat and, once again, I pursued with everything. Also once again, my horses failed to keep pace. The whole unit was run down by the last white lion, still waving his gleaming pennant.


Victory!

Nothing game-changing happened next turn. I had lost: 2 eagles, the silver helms, the swordmasters and Lecalion (damn!). My opponent had lost everything except his trebuchets. 19-1 to me.


Debrief

Well, ultimately everything went like clockwork, and I was worried enough by the prospect of facing this army that it felt great to win this big. I hate trebuchets, but they were mercifully incaccurate, and I was able to contain enemy magic for just long enough to pull my opponent’s big unit apart by the seams. Step forward the star of the show. I’ve seen my prince do fantastic things – slaying warlords from most corners of the earth – including carnosaur oldbloods and Chaos lords – but I don’t think he’s ever killed so many characters in a single game before: 1 fighting lord and 3 heroes. He was just an absolute machine.

On the charge, there’s nothing in my army that can hold that Brettonian Bus (at least not without Courage of Aenarion) but, with the charge, my much cheaper Helm Hammer was able to take it to the cleaners. The short point was that I had 7 attacks of Str 6 or greater every round, with ASF, forcing re-rolls on the Bretonnians’ ward saves (the Other Trickster’s Shard was simply massive). My opponent, without getting his lance bonus on the charge, and with his general dead, had nothing in his unit which could compete.

As an army this Bretonnian list wasn’t that comfortable to face but, if its big bus didn’t get the charge, eat something and move on out of counter range of my characters, I don’t think he had enough answers for the prince, or the number of units I was able to use to clear out the rest of his army. Just too many points in that one unit. Perhaps life would have been much easier for him if he had played his light units properly, but he didn’t (I comfortably had enough shooting to deal with them, but they could at least have made an attempt at stopping my helms from outmanoeuvring his Bus on Turn 2).

My only regret is that I couldn’t get to his trebs. My eagles would have been ideal for this but, since I was busy dispelling comets, my opponent chose wisely with his other Heavens spells and made sure he put them out of action.

In the end, very pleased to have pulled a couple of big wins out the bag (though it almost made me that little bit more annoyed with by performance in Game 1!), and to have got 2nd place overall (apparently 1st went to a daemons player, but I never saw his army so I had no idea what he was fielding).

Thanks for reading.

[GhostWarrior]

Well done Seredain! I can just imagine how fun it would be to chop up those tank characters one by one as your opponent sat by hopelessly, waiting for the clock to run out.

Just a rules thing for you to check on (big rulebook faq here); I'm pretty certain you can still use arcane items while fleeing. In fact, i think you may still get your dispel bonus. The only thing you lose is the ability to cast and channel.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Seredain!

Thanks for the rest of the story It was indeed very interesting to see all these nice charges you pulled out and I guess it was inevitable with his regiments being far less numerous. I am still not sure why he didn't run his characters individually. He could have created more interesting situations for the game itself and as they had a very good armor they could even risk running down your small elites in their true heroic fashion.

A few more comments

1. Adding archers to create better CR is just great!
2. I don't recall the game when your characters equipment proved its value in such an epic way!
3. It seems Spears were a lucky to escape the Knights. Was their participation of the combat which saw destruction of the bretonnian deathstar crucial or were characters and Lions enough to beat them anyway?

Thanks again and congratulations on the very good placing! Being 2nd even in a small tournament is a great achievement.

Cheers!

[SpellArcher]

Good job.

As mentioned he didn't seem to have enough support and what there was was dealt with brutally. Having a huge bus is not good if your enemy is free to run multiple combat units around with impunity. Oh and if he's got the Challenge Monster from Hell.



I wonder if he considered running the characters out? Could have made a difference but he has to be very careful about it. Said characters do not like single bolts at all.

[Gwydion]

Hi Seredain,

what a nailbiter! Another well written battle report. I think this report has the feeling of an epic battle even if it was "just" a tourney. The moments of Seredain battling the enemy lords and heroes and the last standing White Lion who was filled with rage (or vigour?) and single-handedly ran down two units of knights. Fantastic!

Your move to outmanouver the big bus with your knights was brilliant play on your part. Concratulations for your well earned second place!

[Elithmar]

Wow. Well done of course. Great game though. The White Lions did well in the end. I see what you meant about the spears though.

[dangit]

Greetings Seredain!



2. Fluff - HE army is kind of mixture of exotic and unique troops. It is, however, quite unusual to have almost all of them in one army (at least in my opinion). It will obviously make the army work differently with 2 units of Swordmasters and 2 Silver Helms to make it more uniform. Would you risk it though?

In my opinion it's more unusual fluff wise to have a uniform army. Here's my idea for some fluff.

King Finubar has given Prince Seredain the honor of leading his armies to Lustria because one of the Waystones holding the magical vortex at the center of Ulthuan together has been disturbed. Because of the grave nature of this quest his majesty has promised the aid of a detachment of a White Lions to ensure his will done, also Aracin one of the Loremasters of Hoeth has agreed to lend the aid of his mastery of Life magic to their cause along with his bodyguard of swordmasters, the Princes of Caledor and Silver Helm Knights have been lured with promises of glory to join the gathering host, the Lords of Tiranoc have promised a deadly chariot with which to crush the foe, regiments of Spear Elves from Yvresse veterans of the invasion of Grom the Paunch of Misty mountain and Archers from Griffon Gate have lent their steel to the fight and finally a mighty Great Eagle has come by virtue of his friendship with Aracin.

How'd you like it .

[Seredain]

How'd you like it .

Haha, not bad!

But I'm afraid dangit that you're about 13 years too late. The army, and its characters, has a very lengthy history already. They reside in a hidden reclaimed citadel in the Massif Orcal, the narrative result of a massive sequence of victorious battles stretching back to when I was 15. The story goes on when I play back home and, some day soon(ish), I will report a 12,000 point per side battle of allied armies, where Seredain and his arch enemy Zotchaz clash at last (Lizardmen will be there, but they're my allies - it's a long story).

For a short version of the army's background, please see this link.

Unit-fluff wise, I'm not that fussed. Seredain's spent most of his life in Lothern, so being cosmopolitan is fine. I take dragon princes but use snazzy silver helm models and call them Elean Champions (Talthos Elea is Seredain's citadel). Swordmasters came with the Loremaster Lecalion (Seredain's tutor). The white lions (based as much in Lothern, seat of the king, as they are in Chrace, remember) were appointed to Seredain by Finubar when he gave royal assent for the original expedition to reclaim the colony (they were my first elite unit). All the other troops, including the chariot, are made up of Elean elves (or the descendants thereof). I'm not a great believer in 'Tiranoc' chariots as opposed to just chariots - the technology isn't rocket science and, from my point of view, an elven civilisation that once controlled the plains of Bretonnia may well have made fairly extensive use of them.

[Seredain]

Thanks to everyone for your responses to the report. That one felt good didn't it?

Elithmar,

Lesson learned - 27 spearelves (or 30) cannot hold a unit like that. Not without Courage of Aenarion. No way! As for the white lions, I was amazed that they couldn't kill a damn thing but, once his knights were stopped in their tracks, the game was mine to win. My opponent needed something to accurately wither my elites. The trebs managed it with the swords, but were too random to affect the outcome of the game. Something more reliable like archer fire would do maybe - anything to remove a few models before the knights come in.

Hi Seredain,

what a nailbiter! Another well written battle report. I think this report has the feeling of an epic battle even if it was "just" a tourney. The moments of Seredain battling the enemy lords and heroes and the last standing White Lion who was filled with rage (or vigour?) and single-handedly ran down two units of knights. Fantastic!

Your move to outmanouver the big bus with your knights was brilliant play on your part. Concratulations for your well earned second place!

Thank you, Gwydion, that's very kind of you.

I was chuffed with the silver helms' dance but, really, I had no other option at that stage since (perhaps mistakenly), I'd removed the characters from the unit on Turn 1. Perhaps if I'd just kept everyone together and come forward, he would tried to block me with his bus and I'd have had the big charge on Turn 2 instead of 4! In case you ask, I chose the course I did because, if it was me, in that situation I would've run the Bretbus down the centre to kill the swordmasters and spears - I therefore needed to make sure my characters were covering the centre ground. Who knows - a theory to test another day, perhaps.

Some good individual performances, for sure. That one white lion deserves laurels but, for me, this game was all about the Prince himself. My opponent looked horrified when he watched his super-killy general's head fall off and, from there, champion after champion was dispatched. It's good to reminded, sometimes, just how potent the Giant Blade is when wielded with ASF. Certainly another reminder that I should stop putting my knights into big infantry units until later in the game: killing heavy elites is easily what they're best at.

Or, to put it better:

Good job.

Having a huge bus is not good if your enemy is free to run multiple combat units around with impunity. Oh and if he's got the Challenge Monster from Hell.

I wonder if he considered running the characters out? Could have made a difference but he has to be very careful about it. Said characters do not like single bolts at all.

Well noted SA - this is a really important point.

For all you High Elf commanders who need reminding why repeaters are worth it, heed this example. Just as I feel compelled to hide my prince from enemy cannons, limiting his movement, so my enemies have to hide their heroes, generals and wizards from my repeaters. They never blow up, so the danger doesn't ever go away, and 1+rr armour does nothing against a bolt thrower, so it's stay in the bus or be in danger of getting taken out. 200 points of machines killed a load of knights and support troops, but it also pinned the enemy characters in one place and, effectively, bought Seredain all those kills. It's examples like this which should remind us why Combined Arms is good.

Swordmaster,

Good question about my last counter-attack with the spears and lions. I did it because, with only one character standing by the end of Turn 5, my opponent had no choice but to put his Level 4 in the front rank. That means she's dead next turn, and the Crown of Command with her. The important thing then would be to make sure I killed as many knights as possible (white lions) while breaking steadfast (spears) to make sure they ran after she was killed. In the end, she failed the steadfast test so this planning was irrelevant but, at the time, I was thinking ahead.

Thanks very much for your input - I have to go to bed now because I have a bastard of a day ahead of me tomorrow, but I'll return in a bit to talk about those Beastmen. You made some good comments on them and I think that battle is worth a quick debrief.

Cheers all,

S.

[dangit]

I picked up a slightly used copy of Soldiers and Ghosts (I would say a college student owned it last, judging by the interesting notes and doodles in the margins) and have been chugging through it with the combined arms of insomnia and far too much time on my hands - I've just finished Alexander's chapter and we're on to one-eyed Antigones and boyish Eumenes now.

If you don't mind me borrowing your thread for a sub-topic, I'll try to relate it to the main topic where possible. I'm sorry, but after recommending and thus condemning me to this admittedly excellent book, you've earned this, Seredain. Everyone else, feel free to skip this wall of text and continue with the tactical discussion. :3

I'm enjoying the book a lot, even though I'm not sure I agree 100% with the authors interpretation of the Iliad - he has a very modern, reductionist, scientific, A to B, straight-line appreciation of progress and why people do or did the things they did that I feel lacks totality or holism. In any case, I certainly enjoy reading about his ideas. He clearly puts the puzzle pieces down and assembles them well, but I think a few of them aren't necessarily facing the right way up... or they have a picture on both sides... or he's finished only half the picture? I don't know... my metaphor is falling apart... listen at how arrogant it sounds for me to give opinions on something this author has spent his life learning about - perhaps I'm missing the point. I certainly agree with his interpretation of how the Greeks interpreted it though.

To clarify, I think I disagree more with the Greeks interpretation of the Iliad that he presents - the idea of simplification and homogenization that led to armies consisting purely of hoplites and a General, usually integrated in the lines, is very similar to the line of frustrating thinking that leads to people taking nothing but ranked hordes of infantry in 8th, and then complaining about the state of the game when its boring! The Greeks did it because being a Hoplite and standing in line was the true, standardized test of bravery, while with 8th, people do it to conserve points with the dead or fled rule, but the result is much the same - armies with little to no versatility and no replay value. I wish, like the Greeks, people would simply hurry up and exhaust themselves on this train of thought so we can get back to the game.

As I see it in relation to Warhammer, The Iliad itself is more 5th edition hero-hammer with some combined arms, then later in history, Greeks misinterpreting the book for their own concept of what is a correct demonstration of a fair fight between cities should be (almost like 6th or fluff-gamers really, claiming to want armies of nothing but infantry... and then the tourney gamers getting upset that all you can do is push it forward), Iphacrates using Skirmishers effectively to combat this (bait and flee 7th), and then you have Alexander, who demonstrated what combined arms could do - which is probably the reason you had me read this book, I think.

I knew that you were recreating Alexander and his companions with your Silver Helm tank, but I have a better appreciation of the depths of how far you've gone - I couldn't help but laugh as I thought of Darius as a Slann, and I couldn't help think Alexander himself would have done far better if he could have found the extra 60 points for a Giant's Blade. I don't feel like I'd be too far off the mark if I said that Alexander must be one of your inspirations in life as well as in Warhammer?

I'm more inclined to play as the Macedonians in Rome:TR after reading this far, and I'll continue reading more, though conversely I'm less likely to use cavalry, and I think my motivation to train as closely as I can manage to that of a historical hoplite this Spring has diminished a lot - I'll explain.

I think the truly inspiring thing about Alexander, and the part that makes him a character I can relate to, as ego-maniacal as that is, is the fact that he was completely batshit insane, and ego-maniacal as well. He had several qualities I find admirable, such as being a historian, intelligent as well as physical, a hero-worshiper, an aesthetic, and then found a way to make it actually work in his own time, such as riding pell-mell for the enemy general and killing him himself with his mates. Hilarious, elegant, dynamic, awesome, and effective.

The author makes a comment questioning whether Alexander was really as cerebral as people give him credit for (are you a cerebral player Seredain?), and I think he certainly was, but the genius he demonstrated is often in the simplicity. Why use a ten-hit combo when kicking someone in the junk will suffice and save a lot more time and resources? Cut the head off and the rest will follow (maybe I should use Death more often... hm). His formations were brilliant in their simplicity, and the fact the organization of the line encouraged a sense of competition in his men was brilliant - it's too bad formations in Warhammer don't effect moral as much, although there certainly is some with some mental gymnastics and abstraction, such as distance to leaders and ranks and such, exact troop numbers and magic equipment, etc.

I think I'm actually a bit jealous that it seems you have such a shining example of what you want for your army in Alexander... or maybe its the other way 'round, and you've made your army around Alexander? In either case, I felt a bit jealous for a bit that you do while I was reading about him, while my own perception of the Greek Hoplite has fallen a bit by the wayside as I read more about them. Their one-track mind, their lack of tactics, the fact that it truly was a grind and many of them not only not trained, but believed it was the antithesis of a fair fight... it sounds so familiar to southern duels with smoothbore pistols... or these people that throw deathstars at one-another. What is the point of it?

Of course, the hoplite had better training later, and started cross-training with other weaponry but... there's something in the mentality of the hoplite that bothers me. I think its the concept of a citizen soldier, fighting in line with his lover-brothers for his city, whereas I've always felt like an outsider... not like an emo, goth kid outsider (although my hair is long and I do wear a lot of black leather!), but I've always spent more time by myself or in the woods than I have with others. With a deeper understanding of what a hoplite is, I'm starting to connect them with concepts that define them - citizen, patriotism, altruism, philanthropy... In my more arrogant and selfish moments, I wonder how Alexander would have felt in this age.

I'm sure many of you reading this are wondering what I'm on about, and why it matters in the context of Warhammer, but the truth is I view Warhammer as yet another form of self-expression and a microcosm of myself, the same as talking, writing, dressing, martial arts or anything else. Whereas other people strain endlessly to create a perfect list that performs well, I honestly believe that if I create a list that demonstrates my particular ethos well, I'll find that I can not only win reliably, but also lose comfortably when it happens. Its a matter of aesthetics and taste more than anything, because I've since reached a point where I can win fairly reliably if I take a hard list and simply play in the most scientifically critical way possible. Similarly, it makes martial arts worth pursuing, because if I just wanted to win, I'd just carry an automatic rifle with me everywhere... instead, learning to use a Colt SAA, or a Longbow, is more of an acceptable compromise and demonstrative of myself in this age of missile warfare.

I sometimes realize that while I'm searching as I do in history, or reading the Iliad, I'm looking for a place that I would fit in better. Even if its just escapism, I would like to be able to point to a place in history and say 'That is where I should be, if only I was born in a different time and place', so that I could join in conversations with other people who do the same more easily, and so that if I said something strange I could give a book about Greeks or Romans or Samurai to someone and after reading it, they'd suddenly gain a bit more understanding of what I was talking about, even if they didn't agree or relate themselves. It would be very nice if I had that shield of patriotism, religion, science or whatever to hide behind... but perhaps in the end, I'm hiding behind being an aesthetic.

I suppose, in that sense, I'm not all that different from those Greek Hoplites and their own aesthetics, or fluff gamers who sometimes render themselves impotent, but at the same time I find aesthetics that detract too much from effect to be ugly, as well as ineffective... again, Alexander charging off towards the enemy general, although dicey, is as effective as it is hilariously archaic and therefore beautiful! Other writers may have scorned him for it, but I don't think the concept of death or glory ever even enters into these people. In Alexanders, I'm sure he either expected to win big or die, in which case there wasn't much use in feeling bad about it, being dead and all.

When something someone puts heartfelt feeling into fails, it can be very pathetic or even feeble... which is something I try to avoid. When however, something blends form and function in such a way, when it works, it creates that spark of life in a game or an event that is often times more important than the context alone should dictate... such as a glorious cavalry charge... similarly, when it fails, it creates a much more meaningful impact... that same cavalry charge turning into 'Charge of the Light Brigade' or the Spartan 300, that can often seem like a victory in and of itself because of its poignancy and impact. The difference between tragic failure and pathetic failure is a hairsbreadth, but infinitely important, and based firmly on perspective.

*slapped* Right! Back to Warhammer!

I think that's what I find interesting about this thread, is that just as you've said, you've created your very own Alexander, and it works for you so well. It feels very similar to the Mage Knight thread I started with Siegfried - there's a form and fuction at play. I can't comment on the deeper points of your list any more than you'll talk about, though I sometimes think I see flashes of similarity between us in list construction and the inspiration behind it... although I may be putting words in your mouth, and if I have, I apologize.

I think at this point, as I've done so many times in the past, I've reached a point where the concept of a Mage Knight in my army no longer exists in stark terms (needing the Radiant Gem), but it always exists more in my lists as a concept of balance or versatility. It is demonstrated by the Archmage, with his ability to tank for damage and heal in the manner of a Paladin in an MMO, even though he's technically a Mage. It is also in my Seaguard, which act as a central hub around which the rest of my army rotates, holding that crucial axis in the manner of Hoplites but also contributing to the missile fire. Similarly, the archers primary role is missile fire, but they can move and keep pace and participate in late game flank charges.

The White Lions demonstrate many concepts as well - it stands to reason that a black and white, (though very effective!) unit like Swordmasters, who excel in short close combats and little else, would be weak against missile fire, or attrition. In the 'Lions however, that concept of duality, balance, form and function exists in the opposite natures of their axes and their cloaks - as well as in their background - the concept of a strong, masculine, viking warrior/hunter/bodyguard with an axe and a pelt, contrasted against the culture, and yes, even femininity of elves is part of their appeal (form) and their versatility (function) to me. The Swordmasters can fit into my lists of course, but they require support in a similar way Spearelves do.

The reason I keep coming back to elves and Warhammer, as opposed to historical races of humans and a more realistic game like Warhammer Ancients, is that within this one race, their exists so many races, as well as deep contrasts in character that are confusing or fearful or weird to most people. In the Iliad, you have a cavalcade of different and opposing fighting styles, mentalities, and relations that exist in the pre-greek, Mycenaean world - I firmly believe that this chaos is the true face of mankind, without its veneer of civilization.

The Greeks on the other hand, with their infinite logic, tried to create a world where the Hoplite was exonerated as the principle, bravest warrior to the exclusion of all else - hence they got screwed at times - they were creating unbalanced lists. I'm sure they felt it was a tragic failure rather than a pathetic failure, but my own particular bias towards versatility obscures that - as I see it, they were not able to 'struggle well' even when as they failed, as they simply had no answer for peltasts and skirmishers, though the Spartans came close - their fitness being very high, they were able to give chase. Spartans, Silver Helm Tanks, Mage Knights, and White Lions are similar in that respect.



its almost never a foregone conclusion, and I think that is what I'm trying to stress with this drivel - the concept that form, as well as function, is a very good thing for many, many reasons.

Are you a Profit or something no seriously that is great post. You've given me a new way of looking at the ancient Greece and I completely agree with almost everything.

[~Milliardo~]

Uh, thanks! My prophet card expired last week - I've yet to renew it.

Its painful reading my own words from even a year ago, even if I still agree with it - the hubris in there gets to me!

Back on topic, nice to see you posting again Seredain - hope it'll be a regular occurrence again!

[dangit]

Seredain I was wondering how you would scale down to 1500 points? Any help would be appreciated .

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Dangit, I think he scaled it down ages ago for someone, go back through the thread, it's there somewhere.

[Teledor]

I think it was maybe 2400 or 2000 points though. 1500 is starting to push the limits for a Cavalry prince. Cav noble, maybe.

[Seredain]

Back on topic, nice to see you posting again Seredain - hope it'll be a regular occurrence again!

Cheers Milliardo!

I can't say I'll be able to post as regularly as once upon a time (I was off work with glandular fever when I started this thread and, when I went back to work, it always finished at 5.30,, so spare time wasn't exactly an issue!), but I'll chip away at it when I can. 3 tournie batreps to be getting on with for a start...

Dangit,

As Teledor says, I think 1500 is pushing it for a cavalry prince. The cut-price bus is my BSB (same build) with 9 silver helms with musician and champion (to take unwanted challenges). I dispense with buses altogether at lower points- I'd rather only take one character and that has to be a mage (Level 2, High Magic, Ring of Fury, Silver Wand), so I tend to build shooting / counter-attack lists at 1K at and switch to the prince (the principle reason I take the bus), when I hit 2K. As for bus / shooting at 1.5K, I haven't thought about it for a long time. There might be something in the thread, but I can't see antything in the contents page so perhaps not. At the moment, I could go either way. Feel free to post a list up here- we can take a look and see what's what.

[SpellArcher]

With two characters I think the Helms are the way to go. But I've seen successful DP buses with just one character. Not sure that would fit this style of list though.