The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Sinsigel
Posts: 357
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:34 am

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1051 Post by Sinsigel »

Hello, Seredain. I would like to ask a question in regard to the necessity of prince in the army.
But first I should show 3K list I'm planning to test.

Lord : 475pts
Teclis

Heroes : 333pts
Noble(Battle Standard Bearer, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix)
Noble(Great Weapon, Dragon Armour, Barded Elven Steed, Talisman of Preservation, Ironcurse Icon)

Core : 750pts
10 Archers(Standard Bearer, Musician)
10 Archers(Full Command)
35 Lothern Sea Guard(Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame)

Special : 1,138pts
6 Sword Masters of Hoeth(Musician)
6 Sword Masters of Hoeth(Musician)
6 Sword Masters of Hoeth(Musician)
30 Phoenix Guard(Full Command, Banner of Sorcery)
8 Dragon Princes of Caledor(Full Command, Amulet of Light, Banner of Ellyrion)

Rare : 300pts
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Total : 2,996pts

As you can see, the list has one large PG block as the key combat unit supported by SM MSUs and a DP unit joined by mounted noble.
I originally intended to put mounted prince instead of noble, but then I was short of special infantry
since the cost of fully kitted prince was equivalent to a kitted noble and a unit of SM.

I therefore decided to have more special infantry instead of prince, choosing to rather rely on Teclis' awesome magical prowess
to boost characters' combat power(Beast, Shadow, Death, etc.) The fact that my gaming meta allows Teclis to choose his lore
after enemy deployment also encouraged this idea. However, I still wonder if choosing more special infantry for prince was a sound choice or not.
Any comments from Seredain or other members are welcome.


P.S.
Below is the list with kitted prince and one less SM unit

Lords : 747pts
Teclis
Prince(Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Barded Elven Steed, Dragonhelm, Vambraces of Defence,
Amulet of Light)

Hero : 168pts
Noble(Battle Standard Bearer, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix)

Core : 760pts
10 Archers(Full Command)
10 Archers(Full Command)
35 Lothern Sea Guard(Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame)

Special : 1,022pts
7 Sword Masters of Hoeth(Musician)
7 Sword Masters of Hoeth(Musician)
29 Phoenix Guard(Full Command, Banner of Sorcery)
8 Dragon Princes of Caledor(Standard Bearer -Banner of Ellyrion, Musician)

Rare : 300pts
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Total : 2,997pts
Navratil
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:14 pm

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1052 Post by Navratil »

I've been play testing the Calvary Prince lately and so far the results are very good 3-0 with all crushing victories 2 against Daemons and 1 against another HE player, the list works so cohesively I love it and just wanted to say thanks for posting it up for others to see.
High Elves W/L/D 3/0/0
2 Wins Vs DoC
1 Win vs HE
Asurmenx
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:25 pm

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1053 Post by Asurmenx »

Hello Sereidan. I just finished my game against VC. We were playing 2800 points per side, and without ETC restrictions. For this 300 points I transformed unit of WL into 30 with Lion Banner. He had a black knight bus, about 13 + Vampire Lord with red fury, beguile, summon creatures of night, cursed book and some defensive stuff, and small Vampire with red fury and Talisman of Preservation. 2x30 ghouls, 6 horrors, 20 zombies, 2x3 bats, 5 hounds, mortis engine and 2 cairn wraiths heroes. I have to say that I really sucked in deployement. My SH bus spend 3 turns wheeling around terrain (lots of it) and smashing zombies, and with new FAQ just reformed. On the last turn he charged my remains of SH bus with only musician left. At this point he had knight bus, and I had 26 WL, 10 SM and 20 spearmen around his bus. With all his attacks, he knocked 1 wound of my BSB, and I knocked down his Lord :wink:. At this point I just evaporated his unit.

After short analysis, I have to say that high magic is great! For this game I had drain, shield, fury, flames and vaul's. Shield did his job, Fury killed 3 hounds and flames just devastaded 26 ghouls in 2 turns. Vaul's is another story. I destroyed Armour of Destiny of his lord, Talisman of Preservation off his litte vamp, destroyed barrows and screaming banner (making his LD bomb manageable.)
What didn't go so well, was failing terror test with my chariot on LD 10 rerollable... :D

I have to say thank you for this list, and sorry for my poor english, I'm from Poland and only 16 years old.

A.
akielzather
Posts: 293
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:03 am
Location: Scotland

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1054 Post by akielzather »

Hey Sereidan. I have a question.

With the rise of Mon Cavalry and 1+As i can see an increase of metal mages as support to help deal with these. In your last tournment your cav bus got nuked by one of then. Would you consider swapping things arround to give them some protection against these.

I have been playing arround with the cav prince for months and have two poss changes to the list.

Helm of fortune, loremaster cloak, Sword of anti hero.DA, Shield.
Pros - Keeps 1+ save, good against bunker units and any death stars could have 7 st 7 attacks. (like the brets you faced for example.

Cons - Inconsistent Str of charater. In challenges, could just be 5 st 5 if only one charater. AS will be harder to get through.

Other - Helm, Cloak, GW, talisman of loec.
pros - Consistent Str 6 attacks(not quiet str 7),
cons - down to AS2+

Anyway, interested in your opinion.
8th 2012 Tournie P12 W8 D0 L4
8th 2013 Tournie 7th Ed book P17 W9 D2 L6
Totals P29 W17 D2 L10

Characters.
Calidiane - Captian of the Silver Helms of Saphery. Death Knight of Hoeth.
Maulinerine - Archmage of Life.
Kavineer - Battle-standard Bearer
sparkytrypod
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:37 am
Location: ireland

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1055 Post by sparkytrypod »

Sereidan come back to us!
death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain

do an rpg personality test, im from Ireland and I get...

[CENTER][url=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/img][/url][/CENTER
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1056 Post by SpellArcher »

Fear not! He's not dead just a bit busy...

I'll try and prevail on him to post something. As far as the Loremaster's Cloak goes I think he tends to regard the Silver Helms as semi-disposable. So long as the characters get into combat unscathed, that's the main thing. Obviously you'd need hin to clarify that though. I can tell you he's played a few games vs Mallas' Lizardmen and the latest adjustment is to swap the scroll for Sigil of Asuryan.
akielzather
Posts: 293
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:03 am
Location: Scotland

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1057 Post by akielzather »

Thats Spellarcher for the reply.

Think my main reason, was to also protect Prince and BSB from Death snipes, which with no AS the re-rolls give no benifit. On top of that Banishment spam. Come across a few lists that use death, light and metal, and Bus and characters got fairly squished. The cloak idea was a simple solution to protect the investment at not much points without reducing the damage output by too much.

Anyhow.
8th 2012 Tournie P12 W8 D0 L4
8th 2013 Tournie 7th Ed book P17 W9 D2 L6
Totals P29 W17 D2 L10

Characters.
Calidiane - Captian of the Silver Helms of Saphery. Death Knight of Hoeth.
Maulinerine - Archmage of Life.
Kavineer - Battle-standard Bearer
SpellArcher
Green Istari
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Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1058 Post by SpellArcher »

It's interesting.

You're quite right that these are issues. I liked Seredain's original list with Banner of the World Dragon. Of course he dropped it because the BSB was proving too vulnerable. It might be possible to run Cloak plus Dragonhelm, with a 2+ AS and possibly Shield BSB might be Ok. The Prince is an absolute killer and can deal with most foes in the game. The question is whether this would be compromisedtoo much, given that High Magic can't help much here.
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Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Location: London, England.

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1059 Post by Seredain »

HELLO!

Image

So as I was saying,

Happy with the army's performance of late I took a holiday from gaming to move out of my old flat, stay with some friends in London (very welcoming types they were too), move into a new flat, start in a new department at work, get some furniture, break my phone, get a new phone, break my laptop (taking my Neverwinter Nights kukri master with it - NOOOOOOOO!!), repair my PC to replace aforementioned laptop, get some internet, fix the water main, help my gf apply for jobs and attend a conference about the upcoming Jackson Reforms in English civil law (woop). Thank you to SpellArcher for keeping an eye on the place and posting those replies.

Apologies to those who have posted recently (or even not so recently) to find me AWOL.

Asurmenx,

Thanks for your post and apologies I'm so late! Sounds like quite a fight. Some of my favourite battles are against enemy cavalry buses - it's always interesting to see things from the other side. Sounds like you got on well. It is often tempting to go on the run-around with your knights, but you need a good reason to. If you're sacrificing control of the field or missing out on the opportunity to kill support-sized units early on, you're probably not helping your infantry. If you want to move around a flank then great - just assess the risks first.

Akielzather,

I have come across maybe 6 armies with metal mages with my list and, honestly, playing against them isn't so bad. Sure, my army has an armoured unit in the helms, but it's only one unit, 192 points and 8 models. Of course Searing Doom is a bad spell for me - I'll dispel it if I have the option. But, really, playing against the spell is better than against others like Dwellers which could get the characters. The helms are often getting shot by one thing or another - and if it isn't cannons, doom divers, it may as well be Searing Doom. Remember that, individually, the helms themselves are some my least important fighting models. If someone is chucking big dice at them instead of the swordmasters, then its fine by me.


Games


So, I owe you guys an update... I have 6 games to bring you: 1 walk in the (Jurassic) park, one good lesson, a tournament and a game which led to a list change. Since I've mostly been typing in my lunch breaks at work, I haven't had the aid of photos (added later), so I've had to work in a summary (rather than turn by turn) format and then add on any photos later. This reduces the level of detail slightly but, on the plus side, makes finding the time to work so much easier (and at least I always remember the important bits). Partly for this reason, I have the next three summary reports (after this first one) ready to go, so at least you guys won't have to wait 6 weeks (or 3 months, ahem) between each report.

Lizard Game 1 - Hunting Season

An old friend and home-town opponent wanted to try something new and brought out what he called his Jurassic Park list. No guessing what the result would be so, in the interests of speed I'll just tell you that it was full of dinosaurs (you can see what everything is on the pictures, though if I recall correctly all the razordon models were in fact sallies). The bottom line was the saurus oldblood on the carnosaur with a multi-attack sword, spiky +1 attack shield, 1+ save and 4+ ward. Low initiative of course but, if he stuck around, he'd bring some pain. Two stegadons, a bunch of sallies, some terradons and a unit of cavalry completed the zoo theme, and a couple of Krox cohorts provided the backbone.

Image

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I'm honestly not sure how I'd play this list if I was lizzies (although I'd make the cohorts bigger) - probably stack everything in one part of the board and bumrush my opponent's most expensive units, relying on M6 to get me there quicker than they could react with enough strength. My opponent didn't really do this, though. He deployed his cohorts far apart and scattered his dinosaurs amongst them. If he meant to converge them and thunderstomp his way through to victory, this deployment gave no sign. Further, since my opponent had so many points tied up in monsters, I had a big edge in deployment drops, and we were dealing with a fairly open board. I won the first turn with the distinct impression that things were already going my way.

A Turn 1 failed charge from the baby steg against my fleeing dragon princes (which I'd advanced up fast to draw the dino out), saw a rubbish 3” move which left him too far from the action. I was then able to get the helms converged on the flank of one of the cohorts while the spears hit its front. The steg counter-attacked into the helms' flank, but with the rate that the spearelves were ripping through skinks, it wouldn't be enough and, even as the skinks somehow held, the steg broke from combat. At the same time, the white lions made a long charge into the engine steg (saving me from using an eagle), and, since he'd been wounded by a couple of single bolts (with arrow attraction), cut him up as the carnosaur oldblood, blocked by an eagle, could only watch. The helms charged on into the rallied vanilla stegadon as the spears drove off the remains of the cohort.

Image

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Elsewhere on the field, archery and High Magic halved one cohort within the first two turns, to be finished by the swordmasters who had moved up to prevent anything flanking my main attack. To save itself from arrows, the cohort tried to shelter in a combat with swords. This was a mistake: the swordmasters blitzed the skinks, ran them down and, next turn (mine) had a long charge into the flank of the saurus cavalry which I then made (my opponent could have held because of the distance but it could equally have been out of despair). A massacre ensued.

Image

As his army melted around him the oldblood, not having any charges on because of last turn's eagle, pointed himself at the only static target - the archers - and moved toward them as fast as he could. His dino was shot from underneath him by arrow-cursed bolt throwers and, now slugging it on foot, he had his ward save broken by Vaul's Unmaking. A few seconds later he heard a command from some distant elf, and was promptly speared through the chest by a large bolt. It was not a good outing for the dinosaurs.

Image
Thud!

A couple of months passed after this and, although tournament preparation was obviously going swimmingly, I thought I'd head over to Mallas' house one Friday night for a last minute practice game (the tournie being the following day). Pah, it was just more lizards! What could possibly go wrong?

I'll give you a clue - the next article is much longer...

Image
Coming soon...
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
flanker
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:00 pm

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1060 Post by flanker »

Welcome back Seredain! Long time no see and very glad to see my favourite thread resuscitated.

These are advanced species of Lizards who have constructed what appears to be electrical pylons? :shock:

With the SH bus, if you start with the mentality that they are pure extra wounds to carry your characters into the necessary combat then you'll not fret when they get hit hard. After I've adopted the Cavalry bus model, I could never bring myself to use a dragon when you're paying similar points when the dragon model is just too vulnerable in a competitive environment.
SpellArcher
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1061 Post by SpellArcher »

Yeah I wondered about the pylons but it's Jurassic Park, innit? I also noted the strategically-placed bottles. Obviously Seredain's opponent had been on the sauce...

:)

Notice you deployed the shooters well back Mr S. Is this a general policy vs fast armies? I seem to see a lot of your games where the opponent doesn't get his combat troops moving fast enough and a portion of them really suffer at range over several turns. Or is this a result of them having to adjust to an unexpectedly rapid Helm assault?
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Elithmar
Young Eataini Prince
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1062 Post by Elithmar »

flanker wrote:With the SH bus, if you start with the mentality that they are pure extra wounds to carry your characters into the necessary combat then you'll not fret when they get hit hard. After I've adopted the Cavalry bus model, I could never bring myself to use a dragon when you're paying similar points when the dragon model is just too vulnerable in a competitive environment.
This is why I don't think a dragon prince bus is worth it - they're going to die just as easily, but cost a lot more.

I've been experimenting with the cavalry prince myself a bit, and I've come to the point where I want to try a double prince bus. They should wreck anything, and the princes can also go with the infantry to soak up wounds and provide more killing power.

Have you ever thought of running the characters with the infantry? It was Stormie who first gave me this idea. Furthermore have you ever had a situation where it would be advantageous to do so?

Thanks for the report. I find lizardmen quite easy to play now - the cavalry prince list is suited to facing them I think, but maybe I've also learnt to fight them through all of your reports versus lizards. :D
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
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John Rainbow
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1063 Post by John Rainbow »

Elithmar of Lothern wrote:Have you ever thought of running the characters with the infantry? It was Stormie who first gave me this idea. Furthermore have you ever had a situation where it would be advantageous to do so?
I'm not sure that I've ever seen High Elves using this approach but I've seen it commonly with Lizardmen funnily enough. For them its one of the few ways to get a character to a 1+ AS. I play an opponent who often puts a tough mounted Saurus hero in his unit of TG. It does work pretty well and you can charge out of the unit pretty far too. Just remember you don't get the full 'Look out Sir'.

You could also do the same with an Eagle noble. Jusy sayin'...
Findolfin
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Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1064 Post by Findolfin »

Elithmar of Lothern wrote:
flanker wrote:With the SH bus, if you start with the mentality that they are pure extra wounds to carry your characters into the necessary combat then you'll not fret when they get hit hard. After I've adopted the Cavalry bus model, I could never bring myself to use a dragon when you're paying similar points when the dragon model is just too vulnerable in a competitive environment.
This is why I don't think a dragon prince bus is worth it - they're going to die just as easily, but cost a lot more.

I've been experimenting with the cavalry prince myself a bit, and I've come to the point where I want to try a double prince bus. They should wreck anything, and the princes can also go with the infantry to soak up wounds and provide more killing power.

Have you ever thought of running the characters with the infantry? It was Stormie who first gave me this idea. Furthermore have you ever had a situation where it would be advantageous to do so?
If he run the characters with the infantry, it won`t be the Cavalry Prince anymore :P

Having tried both DP and SH bus extensively, I`d say a Dragon Princes bus is worth it if you only use one character. The champ can carry an utility item and additional attacks will somewhat make it up for the missing char. With 2 characters, I agree you are better off with the helms.

And welcome back Seredain. :)
A tale of Ellyrion, cavalry army blog:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=749457#p749457
Painting log:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=816029#p816029
"We ride until the sun sets..."
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Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1065 Post by Seredain »

flanker wrote:Welcome back Seredain! Long time no see and very glad to see my favourite thread resuscitated.

These are advanced species of Lizards who have constructed what appears to be electrical pylons? :shock:

With the SH bus, if you start with the mentality that they are pure extra wounds to carry your characters into the necessary combat then you'll not fret when they get hit hard. After I've adopted the Cavalry bus model, I could never bring myself to use a dragon when you're paying similar points when the dragon model is just too vulnerable in a competitive environment.
Thanks Flanker! As SA suggested, it's Jurassic Park innit? The dinosaurs just broke down their fences, you see. If you look carefully, on the hill left of centre, you'll see Lex and Tim hoping to be rescued. Keeping my mind on the job in hand, I didn't rescue them and they got eaten. Poor children.

I agree completely with your point about the dragon. The whole point of using an army like this is that you avoid those hard counters which make victory so much less likely. A dragon list might find it easier to win against certain opponents, but eventually you're going to hit cannons. I feel the same about any particular 'arm' of an army (and as I found out recently, to my cost): if you rely too much on one, eventually you'll hit some game-ending bad luck (exploding mage-style), suffer from hitting the wrong kind of board (terrain can be a game changer), or you'll come up against a hard counter (for example, shooting = Storm Banner, magic = Vortex Shard, dragon = mass cannons, lion horde = massed harass + shooting, character stars = mega spells) which you can't beat. Of course every unit has its weaknesses, so the primary reason to use a greater variety of units is that you know you'll have a chance against any army you come across.
SpellArcher wrote: Obviously Seredain's opponent had been on the sauce...
We were both on the sauce! I've wondered if it's really a brilliant idea getting smashed if you want to win. There are times when it's made me properly rubbish. As you suggest SA, the trick is to make sure your opponent is drunker than you...
SpellArcher wrote:Notice you deployed the shooters well back Mr S. Is this a general policy vs fast armies? I seem to see a lot of your games where the opponent doesn't get his combat troops moving fast enough and a portion of them really suffer at range over several turns. Or is this a result of them having to adjust to an unexpectedly rapid Helm assault?
Both! But your observation on the helms' impact is spot on.

Deploying the infantry back

In most of my games, against most armies, I deploy the infantry well back. Partly, this is because it is much, much easier to move forward than backward. So, deploying well back makes it much easier to change your army's formation and move units to new (preferably surprising) parts of the board, and have enough room to do so freely without getting close enough to allow your opponent any easy counter-charges.

At a more basic level, it obviously puts more space (and therefore time) between your infantry and the enemy. This is often very, very important for the cavalry prince list. If my opponent get his elf-killing skirmishers (like salamanders) into my middle-strength infantry units without my cavalry helping to drive them off, then I will start to lose my most important non-character melee models (you need either lots of ranks (spears) or lots of attacks (swords) to fight alongside your knights against the biggest enemy units). If the big enemy hordes get into these units at strength, meanwhile, I lose big chunks of points (the spears alone are 300), and risk losing the game altogether. My infantry need to stay safe until I'm ready to use them, and deploying back buys them the time.

Getting the helms forward

Crucially, a deployment like this also buys the knights more time to do what they need to before the infantry lines clash. Being very aggressive with them is the other half of the same coin that sees you deploying your infantry back, and brings two main advantages: they can (1) kill units like sallies soon and at safe distance, and (2) pin in place more powerful enemy units- either in direct combat or, if your opponent is worried about your helms breaking through altogether, by forcing him to hold units in (or move units to) parts of the board which don't allow these units to attack your infantry. Although we don't have much armoured infantry, then, we do have access to armoured units which can make themselves much more urgent targets and therefore act as the infantry's shield. For a list like this, attack is literally the best form of defence.

Tactically, the bottom line is this: because my infantry units are both fragile and relatively small, ideally I don't want to commit them until I have a level of local superiority that will make sure I win those important combats in only a few rounds (reducing the damage I suffer). Until that moment comes, the helms have a dual responsibility: killing enemy troops and preserving my infantry at full strength for the climactic battle. The best way for them to do this is to push themselves into the face of the enemy army early. Often (as you've spotted SA), if the helms pick an enemy weak point and start cutting into it early in the game, my opponent will freak out (understandably) and attempt to swing his deployment round to stop them. If this happens, it can leave the slower enemy infantry units stranded, unsupported, on the outside of the circle. Even where the knights are stopped in their tracks, the price will be that my opponent has left my infantry and shooting base alone and well able to exploit the confusion in his battleline created by the helm hammer. Deploying the infantry back 1) encourages the opponent to over-focus on the silver helms, 2) preserve the infantry and 3) keep my battleline adaptable by giving me more space to manoeuvre.

Warning! The biggest problem with deploying near the back line is failing leadership tests. If your opponent is able to force lots of panic tests on you, you'll need to adapt accordingly by placing your characters closer to the footsloggers. Of course, against the shootiest lists you won't want to run the above strategy at all: you'll want to deploy forward and charge!
Elithmar of Lothern wrote: Have you ever thought of running the characters with the infantry? It was Stormie who first gave me this idea. Furthermore have you ever had a situation where it would be advantageous to do so?
Yes I've often done this. It's only feasible where you don't need to worry about LOS saves, but if these aren't a worry then the silver helms become less essential as a bodyguard and you can build whatever combination you like. In one 4k game against warriors of chaos, for instance, after I'd destroyed my opponent's hell cannons I shifted Seredain into a unit of swordmasters and had a whale of a time!

The big problem to bear in mind though, after war machines, is that your cavalry characters can't make way within infantry units. So, make sure they don't get stranded at the end of wide formations against narrower enemy units - otherwise, once you run out of challenges, they'll be useless.

The next big problem is speed. Fast units can get into more combats than slow units and therefore get more from their points. I'm not a huge fan of deploying fast cavalry characters with infantry unless there's a very good reason - I tend to get fewer kills out of them if they're stuck with the footsloggers. As a late-game move, though, shifting them to infantry (or running them alone) is an option I always bear in mind. As I've said before, another reason I prefer cavalry to dragons is that you can change your deployment and split your movement as opportunity allows.
Elithmar of Lothern wrote:Thanks for the report. I find lizardmen quite easy to play now - the cavalry prince list is suited to facing them I think, but maybe I've also learnt to fight them through all of your reports versus lizards. :D
Glad I could help! I agree with you - played properly (as I sometimes forget!), the army does well against lizardmen. Speed and armour are both good against all those dangerous skirmishers, and cavalry can't get stomped by stegadons.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
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Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1066 Post by Seredain »

Findolfin wrote:Having tried both DP and SH bus extensively, I`d say a Dragon Princes bus is worth it if you only use one character. The champ can carry an utility item and additional attacks will somewhat make it up for the missing char. With 2 characters, I agree you are better off with the helms.

And welcome back Seredain. :)
Thanks Findolfin!

The difference between the units is, I suppose, one of emphasis rather than type, albeit the important distinction for me is that the prince-bus really needs to charge while the helms do not. The dual-character helm hammer is a fast grinding unit: the characters kill reliably every round and the silver helms die cheaply. This means that you can move it up and invite (even force) a charge from your opponent and be sure that the resulting combat will still go your way, giving you wonderful opportunities for board control. This is where the dragon princes fall down: they have more quality attacks on the charge (especially in wide formations - always use a musician with your knights), but don't really have much defensive ability. For me, this makes a dragon prince bus tactically less flexible than the helm hammer. However, for those who like their cavalry charging in line (and, importantly, their BSBs with the infantry!), the unit can work pretty darn well.

One more thing to mention is that the extra attacks from the dragon princes give good opportunities for the right kind of magic buffs, like mindrazor. I don't like to use magic to give me something I deploy solidly (like high strength attacks), but lists with more powerful magic phases than mine could have fun turning their dragon princes into fantastic melee units. A Shadow Level 4 with a Lore of Beasts Level 2 in support might, for example, be a particularly good option.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1067 Post by Elithmar »

John Rainbow wrote:
Elithmar of Lothern wrote:Have you ever thought of running the characters with the infantry? It was Stormie who first gave me this idea. Furthermore have you ever had a situation where it would be advantageous to do so?
I'm not sure that I've ever seen High Elves using this approach but I've seen it commonly with Lizardmen funnily enough. For them its one of the few ways to get a character to a 1+ AS. I play an opponent who often puts a tough mounted Saurus hero in his unit of TG. It does work pretty well and you can charge out of the unit pretty far too. Just remember you don't get the full 'Look out Sir'.

You could also do the same with an Eagle noble. Jusy sayin'...
Ah, but the eagle character makes them M2. ;)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1068 Post by SpellArcher »

I've found that in particular, holding the Swordmasters back sometimes can be effective. Firstly it can let you take advantage of terrain to protect them from shooting. Secondly it can create a 'threat zone' in front of them to mess with your opponent's movement. Perhaps strangest of all, they sometimes act as a magnet, the opponent rushes a unit towards them to try to deal with them quickly. But of course you are often able to weaken this unit with shooting/magic or intercept it. Plus the Swordmasters are of course quite good at defending themselves...
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1069 Post by Seredain »

Yeah, it's particularly important with the swordmasters because they are both my most powerful combatants and the most fragile. They need protecting more than any other unit in the army during the early turns, so central deployments near the backline are usually ideal, as is being aggressive with other units and picking good targets with your shooting to create that threat zone. If you can get your opponent hitting the silver helms or spears instead of the swords, then you're getting a good deal, and typically I won't commit these guys until the mid-late game unless I have no other choice. Having said that, if my opponent tries to march straight at them then he's easier to shoot and much easier to outflank - so much the better!
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1070 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

SpellArcher wrote:they sometimes act as a magnet, the opponent rushes a unit towards them to try to deal with them quickly.
I have used this, drop Sword Masters in the corner behind cover, and my opponent turned a nice sized block and marched them towards them.
This was a silly mistake, sure my Silver Helms looked far away, but I only needed 9+ to hit their flank...
I didn't take out the unit, but the combat gave my Sword Masters cover, they could march up and charge the next turn.
I read about this kind of thing in a strategy post from a New Zealand player, he used a decent sized block of Spears in the corner and a chariot in the middle.
It was an interesting read, and a neat trick.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1071 Post by Elithmar »

Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:they sometimes act as a magnet, the opponent rushes a unit towards them to try to deal with them quickly.
I have used this, drop Sword Masters in the corner behind cover, and my opponent turned a nice sized block and marched them towards them.
This was a silly mistake, sure my Silver Helms looked far away, but I only needed 9+ to hit their flank...
I didn't take out the unit, but the combat gave my Sword Masters cover, they could march up and charge the next turn.
I read about this kind of thing in a strategy post from a New Zealand player, he used a decent sized block of Spears in the corner and a chariot in the middle.
It was an interesting read, and a neat trick.
I'd be interested to know the details of this trick he used. Do you have a link?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1072 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Peter Willamson's High Elves

For reference, his list:
Lvl4 High Archmage + Dispel Scroll(20) + Ring of fury(40) 320
Prince + GW + Bow of Seaferer(60) + Dragon Armour of Caledor(25) + Talsiman of Loec(10) 257
BSB Noble + Barded Elven Steed + DA + GW + Helm Of Fortune(25) 165

CORE

27 Speamen + mus + std + Gleaming Pennant(5) 263
27 Speamen + mus + std 258
10 Archers + mus 115

SPECIAL

15 WhiteLions + Std + Mus +Champion + Banner of Sorcery(50) 305
2 Tiranoc Chariots 170
5 Dragon Princes + Mus 160
5 Reavers 85

RARE

2 Bolt Throwers 200
2 Eagles 100
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1073 Post by SpellArcher »

Without clicking the link, this is the HE list from the NZ Masters. Think he did Ok didn't he?

First thing that strikes me is the exposed BSB. He only gets a fragile Look out Sir from the Princes and no Ward or Charmed Shield. Maybe the plan is to get him into combat ASAP and tank stuff. In general the list looks a bit light on grinding power. Only 15 Lions. The BSB can grind (but not powerfully) and the Prince can kill stuff but if he doesn't do so quickly he's probably going down. Not much help from High Magic for that.

On the up side I like the shooting. Adding Seafarer makes the phase clearly more dangerous vs Monsters, Monstrous Cav etc. and of course he's a good chance of rolling Curse. Fewer archers but he can live with that I think, though he'll miss the Flaming banner.

The list has plenty of speed for dealing with flanking skirmishers etc. but no real power with it, except possibly the DP's + BSB. So I guess he clears the board of enemy chaff, shoots stuff up and picks his combats.

I'll now click the link and see how wrong I've been!

:)

Edit: Thinking about it he can hide the BSB behind an eagle I guess.

I've read the comments now and I half see where he's coming from. I disagree that shooting cannot win games, HE bowlines are strong but I do like the shooting he has. Obviously, given our set-ups I rate the solo High Archmage but more spells is definitely more powerful.

The bottom line is the grinding power. Either the NZ meta is very different from the UK or this guy is a stellar player as I've seen nothing anywhere that works quite like it. Seredain and my lists are similar in some ways to his but I hazard Mr S is with me in regarding grinding power as essential.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1074 Post by Elithmar »

You have sword masters to grind.

I'm still not sure he has enough combat power. He says he wants to tempt his opponents into combat, but why? They'll slaughter his spearelves! I'm sorry but I just don't see it.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1075 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

He placed 2nd in the NZ Masters with that list, but it may have been more of a surprise for his opponents, rather than a good list.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1076 Post by Malossar »

He makes a comment that Stone Throwers and Cannons don't hit often...

Luck? With Engineers, Dwarves and Empire seem to blast my lines apart, barely ever missing! And Doom Divers with their redirect can almost always hit *something*
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1077 Post by Axiem »

I find it somewhat interesting that when someone succeeds with a non-standard list, it's often seen as "luck" or catching ones opponent unawares rather than being analyzed properly. The way I see it, he planned a list that had a solid strategy behind it and executed on that plan. Fundamentally, that's much more interesting that copy pasting a "standard" list and getting predictable results against respective match ups.

As for his list, I think the only thing that can be dictated as NZ meta is the choice for High Magic over something more destructive. In the UK or US meta, it wouldn't be inconceivable to have a similar list succeed had he chosen Metal or Shadow, with minor adjustments, both of which would cover for match ups which might otherwise hurt this army. Most importantly, he seems to have found a balanced All-Comers MMU-style list which, while not popular within the Internet / tournament community, is still a tactically sound way to play elves.

Taking a deeper look at the list, it functions very similarly to Seredains in principle, without the cavalry buss to provide a massive punch in a single round, but has additional ranged options and utility units which could otherwise compensate for this. A combo charge is still going to hurt just about any unit, and so long as he succeeds in breaking Steadfast with the Spears, his Elites and Chariots pack enough of a punch to break through most units. As a final point, and still drawing comparison to Seredain I hope, not all lists need be made to grind; especially with our fragile elves, a protracted combat isn't always the brightest idea, nor is it the most cost-effective against what other armies have out there.

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1078 Post by SpellArcher »

I've spent the whole of 8th edition playing a High Magic MMU combined arms list. Painful experience has taught me that grinding power is necessary. I've found myself drafting more and more into the list. You need units that can take charges in order to set your own up. Size 27 Spears can sometimes do this but not always. High Magic is a great Lore but does not help you kill things in combat. Seredain's list (and mine to a lesser extent) compensates for this by including many high strength close combat attacks. The NZ list doesn't.

On this site we see a multitude of wildly varying lists from all over the world. The reason I'm questioning this one is that nothing I've seen in all those lists (or my own very relevant experience) helps me understand how it works. Clearly it does work. It's like Furion's list, we need to question it based on our current understanding in order to move that understanding on.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1079 Post by Malossar »

Axiem wrote:I find it somewhat interesting that when someone succeeds with a non-standard list, it's often seen as "luck" or catching ones opponent unawares rather than being analyzed properly. The way I see it, he planned a list that had a solid strategy behind it and executed on that plan. Fundamentally, that's much more interesting that copy pasting a "standard" list and getting predictable results against respective match ups.

As for his list, I think the only thing that can be dictated as NZ meta is the choice for High Magic over something more destructive. In the UK or US meta, it wouldn't be inconceivable to have a similar list succeed had he chosen Metal or Shadow, with minor adjustments, both of which would cover for match ups which might otherwise hurt this army. Most importantly, he seems to have found a balanced All-Comers MMU-style list which, while not popular within the Internet / tournament community, is still a tactically sound way to play elves.

Taking a deeper look at the list, it functions very similarly to Seredains in principle, without the cavalry buss to provide a massive punch in a single round, but has additional ranged options and utility units which could otherwise compensate for this. A combo charge is still going to hurt just about any unit, and so long as he succeeds in breaking Steadfast with the Spears, his Elites and Chariots pack enough of a punch to break through most units. As a final point, and still drawing comparison to Seredain I hope, not all lists need be made to grind; especially with our fragile elves, a protracted combat isn't always the brightest idea, nor is it the most cost-effective against what other armies have out there.

Axiem

My Luck comment was in response to his comment that Warmachines aren't very accurate. Perhaps he doesn't face many warmachines and is lucky enough that when he does they miss. When i fight against Warmachines, they tend to never miss with the plethora of engineers and redirections available.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1080 Post by Axiem »

Sorry thelordical for the confusion! The comment wasn't directed at you, but rather those who dismissed his list so quickly! While I don't agree with his point of view in everything, including his point about Warmachines, I was merely trying to get people to think about how one might succeed with said list, instead of simply casting it out as happenstance or chance and moving on.

Edit: @spellarcher. Fair enough, but thinking of a list in terms of how one plays other lists, similar or not, doesn't exactly move forward understandings. For instance, moving from playing Star Dragon lists to a shooting one requires a different way of problem solving which they both do in distinctly different ways. The goal isn't to think of one list in terms of the other, but come up with a new strategy entirely.

Regarding his list, notice he has Reavers, something very few High Elf players utilize, but combined with a pair of eagles, that combined 185 point investment can keep any-point hordes from ever reaching combat, thereby eliminating the need for the ability to grind down said unit. His smaller unit of Lions are now no longer "fragile" but "mobile" as they don't get in the way of this process and his chariots and princes can combo charge with the spears to take out secondary targets and clean up points, with his Lord and Bolt Throwers sniping monsters who would hinder this process.

To be clear, we have the same goal - getting people to think about his list - just went about it in two different ways.

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