The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1231 Post by SpellArcher »

World Dragon looks an interesting strategic choice for a HE player. Some stick it on a DP bus, which obviously then becomes very hard to take down. The problem then is you lack it on Swordmasters/Lions and you don't get that hefty Core spend on a Helm bus. I've noticed Malossar running his PG alongside the DP's, so at least that's two very solid combat units. But putting it on elite infantry as you do sir, seems to solve a lot of issues for that unit (especially with the loss of re-rolls).

Was Tempest that much of a threat to your opponent here? It looks like if he focuses on stopping Walk, the missiles will be out of range turn one? Not to mention he seems to get more arrows into the SM's. Maybe he just didn't see your phase coming. I wondered what Arcane Item he had (unused vs me) and TBH I don't rate it at all. A scroll is boring but very, very solid. He can also play around with Wand of Wych Elm if he's feeling brave.

As you know, I like the look of Wild Riders but these just never got going in either game. I feel you have to use the M9 and exert some kind of ranged threat early doors. As we know, Treemen have issues (not least flaming cannon) but they give a whole range of extra options to a WE player. Plus they are very solid against elf shooting. For my money, a player using a lower-tier book needs to build as many tactical options in as he can.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1232 Post by sutilar »

Hello from the basque country, Seredain

I have doubts at choosing between ring of fury or level up to 2 of the mage. maybe can be both. what do you take in count while inlcuding them in the list?

Another question, what would be the difference in your list by replacing 5 sisters for a 3rd RBT?

Thanks for reading

P.D: I was fascinated of your last game, 50% of the victory in deployment. Please talk more about the deployment phase in your games!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1233 Post by Seredain »

SpellArcher wrote:World Dragon looks an interesting strategic choice for a HE player. Some stick it on a DP bus, which obviously then becomes very hard to take down. The problem then is you lack it on Swordmasters/Lions and you don't get that hefty Core spend on a Helm bus. I've noticed Malossar running his PG alongside the DP's, so at least that's two very solid combat units. But putting it on elite infantry as you do sir, seems to solve a lot of issues for that unit (especially with the loss of re-rolls).

Was Tempest that much of a threat to your opponent here? It looks like if he focuses on stopping Walk, the missiles will be out of range turn one? Not to mention he seems to get more arrows into the SM's. Maybe he just didn't see your phase coming. I wondered what Arcane Item he had (unused vs me) and TBH I don't rate it at all. A scroll is boring but very, very solid. He can also play around with Wand of Wych Elm if he's feeling brave.

As you know, I like the look of Wild Riders but these just never got going in either game. I feel you have to use the M9 and exert some kind of ranged threat early doors. As we know, Treemen have issues (not least flaming cannon) but they give a whole range of extra options to a WE player. Plus they are very solid against elf shooting. For my money, a player using a lower-tier book needs to build as many tactical options in as he can.
Hey SA,

Yeah I think treemen give me something to worry about. At the least, they force my prince's deployment (he's the best model I have for taking them on), so apart from their killing ability, they force my deployment somewhat - information my opponent can use. Certainly, a low-strength army like his (and to a lesser extent HE), benefit a lot from having a model on the board who can dish out the big strength over several rounds.

I didn't need tempest but it was good to have to hand. Turn 1, that was the spell my opponent was really worried about, so he let through Walk in order to stop it. I didn't ever cast it, but the threat of it allowed my aggressive advance and grabbed me the initiative. I actually really like tempest. Anything that's useful against bowlines, dark elves or skinks is good for High Elves, and on 3 dice for the archmage it isn't hard to cast with Book of Hoeth. Skink/krox buses and skaven/goblin hordes have lots to fear, too. Situational, but a decent spell in plenty of matchups.

On the Banner, my position has always been that helms, with a 2+ save, are simultaneously some of my toughest and least important troops. Dragon princes are great, but lose attacks in the bus (as long previously discussed), and cost so much with the characters that it nobbles the strength of other crucial elements of the army. The swing from special to core helms is a huge consideration, but there is nonetheless still an argument, to be had shortly, that a large helm bus (329 points in the current build), does that too. Changes on the way there.
sutilar wrote:Hello from the basque country, Seredain

I have doubts at choosing between ring of fury or level up to 2 of the mage. maybe can be both. what do you take in count while inlcuding them in the list?

Another question, what would be the difference in your list by replacing 5 sisters for a 3rd RBT?

Thanks for reading

P.D: I was fascinated of your last game, 50% of the victory in deployment. Please talk more about the deployment phase in your games!
Hey there Sutilar,

Good questions - thanks. I've wondered a lot whether the ring is worth as much as having a shot at the extra spell. Truth is, I'm not sure it is, but since you get a good selection of utility spells on the archmage, the temptation to double up on Soul Quench is too great for me at the moment. 4d6 hits coming off 3 power dice tended to really upset my opponents. Take Soul Quench on the archmage as well and you can throw an absolute hail of death every turn! You have to plan carefully to get in range without exposing your casters or dragging an expensive bodyguard into a disadvantageous position. More on that later (I've written another monster - please bare with me...).

On the bolt thrower issue... I can't tell you how much I am wrestling with the desire to get that third repeater. Thing is, I don't think losing the sisters is the way to get it. Without Banner of Eternal Flame on our archers, I think you need enough flaming archers to have a good chance of getting that crucial flaming wound against chimeras etc. 5 sisters wouldn't cut it, 10 shots is much safer. So what else could I lose? The obvious target (as ever) is the chariot, but he does chaff-clearance cheaper than anything else I can take, and you can send him in alongside my other units to add some crucial kills: it just does lots of jobs that need doing. Since I've got plenty of direct damage coming out of high magic, I think I'll be able to live with 2 repeaters.

I'm going to talk deployment a lot in the next article! I've felt that my army, in its recent build at least, encouraged certain quirks of deployment. Attempting to kill those quirks has led to some changes, which I'll get to shortly.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1234 Post by Ferny »

Seredain wrote: On the Banner, my position has always been that helms, with a 2+ save, are simultaneously some of my toughest and least important troops. Dragon princes are great, but lose attacks in the bus (as long previously discussed), and cost so much with the characters that it nobbles the strength of other crucial elements of the army. The swing from special to core helms is a huge consideration, but there is nonetheless still an argument, to be had shortly, that a large helm bus (329 points in the current build), does that too. Changes on the way there.
Silver helms are what they are. There's a quote on here somewhere about how wordlessly happy you were with the rumours of their becoming core, but actually I think the changes to character items making cavstar heroes less tanky has hindered this build rather than helped overall, although it's clearly still plenty viable (more popular even if the forum lists are anything to go by). How has 8th helped them beyond the core shift freeing up points? MP allows a tiny frontage or encourages large units. Given how I've seen you play them in 8th, as a completely expendable bodyguard, although you're less tanky now to go for a larger unit seems to partially rob you of this tactical option. I like the idea of two units though, 5 and 7-10, and the flexibility that provides you with character placement, chaff clearance, war machine hunting, flank charges etc, all from core. I am tempted by a big cav unit but I'm not convinced it'd outweigh two smaller units, particularly on your style.

I know you're looking at the comparison between SH and DPs in your comment above but these considerations apply to them too. It would seem to be a big shift in playstyle to focus on the unit rather than the characters, risking throwing away elements of their disposability?
On the bolt thrower issue... I can't tell you how much I am wrestling with the desire to get that third repeater. Thing is, I don't think losing the sisters is the way to get it. Without Banner of Eternal Flame on our archers, I think you need enough flaming archers to have a good chance of getting that crucial flaming wound against chimeras etc. 5 sisters wouldn't cut it, 10 shots is much safer. So what else could I lose? The obvious target (as ever) is the chariot, but he does chaff-clearance cheaper than anything else I can take, and you can send him in alongside my other units to add some crucial kills: it just does lots of jobs that need doing. Since I've got plenty of direct damage coming out of high magic, I think I'll be able to live with 2 repeaters.
The easy option for freeing up points is the poor bloody infantry - could you manage with a 6 smaller swordmaster unit? I'm not saying it's ideal but mine are constantly being picked at for points even though they're my main combat force (much more so than for you). Might work with SM's extra attack too. Something to think about or too debilitating for the unit/too vulnerable to MM/missile fire?
I'm going to talk deployment a lot in the next article! I've felt that my army, in its recent build at least, encouraged certain quirks of deployment. Attempting to kill those quirks has led to some changes, which I'll get to shortly.
:D
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1235 Post by SpellArcher »

The Treeman is a big deal here. In my game against this opponent he had almost nothing that could deal with my one. His Treekin were stuck out on the flank and the Treeman just walked through a storm of S4 archery unscathed. A list needs something that can deal with a monster like this. They are also worth including on the basis that some lists just don't have such tools. Might also apply to a Frost Phoenix but obviously there are differences. Maybe I'll have to take another look at Tempest!

The DP World Dragon bus does seem to have certain advantages to me, the banner, the Wards, WS5 etc making a unit that's very resilient, in addition to the punch of the characters. That said, I read Stormie's report of his game vs Jal where he held the bus with PG and eventually killed it. It is very committal, because it makes sense to start putting mages in the unit and that's all your eggs.

The issue with the Helm Bus is the Spears, isn't it? The temptation is to drop them as Seredain has and then the larger bus not only fills up the Core allocation, it also gives more killing power and ranks to partly do the job of the Spears. It makes some sense to use MP if it's available. This is even more so with the Swordmasters. The loss of re-rolls makes using MP very tempting and then you're up to 18 or 21 and including a mage with the unit fits. Obviously a 14 or something is still viable. But I guess it depends how combat-heavy you want to go and how MSU'ish you want to go.

One thing I've discovered in going from 11 deployment drops to 8. You don't get the match-ups.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1236 Post by sutilar »

Baring with you... (I don't know if it is well said)

I have another pair of doubts. yesterday I had a match against bretonnia, 2500p (I used exactly your last army list).

The first is a strategic doubt. The oponent deployment was simple. Left flank: Grail Knights (with lvl2). Centre: Errant Knights, Realm Knights (with Bsb), Errant Knights and Realm Knights (with lvl 4). Right Flank: Grail Knights (with Lord). Rear: 2 trebuchet.
I had more units so he ended deployment earlier than me. I took the enemy lord + grail knights with white lions, a bit far of the rest of my army. I deployed 5 silver helms with characters in the opposite flank to kill his weak flank rapidly, using a great eagle to lure the grail knights. In the Centre I decided to deploy the swordmasters with mages for turn 1: move straight to get in rage of soul quench and turn 2: take charges. I also deployed the 13 silver helms in the rear of the characters and their 5 silver helms for going forward and turn left to charge the flank of the centre knights that threaten the swordmasters.
The doubt is: how can I deploy and use the chariot, eagle and sisters to avoid a fatal triple charge on the swordmasters and break (or even contain few turns) his centre while my characters clear his weak flank? (I had soul quench, hand of glory, walk worlds, arcane unforging and 2 soul quench more). He had Lore of Life.

The second doubt came when charging with my characters his grail knights (5+ ward save against S5+). How can I exploit Other Tricker Shard?

Thanks for reading
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1237 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Seredain,

Just a quick comment to say that it is good to see you playing and coming back with the reports. I have also one question. I always admired you for the ability to design characters and units set ups which are unique. However, with the new book you seemed to jump on a bandwagon of BotWD and BoH lovers. Did you consider other options and if yes why did you decide to go for these over popular choices? (ok, there are two in one :))

Cheers!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1238 Post by Stormie »

I think it's just a case of parallel evolution, different gamers having the same ideas, plus the desire to use the new toys most easily, so Book of Hoeth and High Magic are very attractive. Plus only being able to use what you have- at this tournament I was the only High Elf player with a Phoenix (out of 4 or 5 of us) as no-one else had managed to get one put together yet (although at those tournaments you could probably get away with a chariot base and a Harpy if you wanted to try one out).

I think players like you and me, Swormdaster, are very lucky as we get quite a few games in, so we can afford to play around with our armies and try out different styles of armies, whereas if we only got to play for tournaments, we might take the "safe" option. All High Elf lists I've played against so far have been very Seredain-ish, but in his case, at least he was playing that style in the first place :D
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1239 Post by Seredain »

Thanks for the interesting comments all. The problem with writing long articles over several days: it pretty much deals with all these questions. Apologies for being slow to respond. Work is back with a vengeance and it's tough tp squeeze it all in. I'll skip doing full reports for the next few games and do some summary articles with the list changes and deployment issues which resulted. Since the book's still fairly new, a lot of us are perhaps running into similar problems, so it makes sense to discuss them sooner rather than later.

For now (at work, on my phone gaaarrgh), let me just say as follows:

Sutilar: I agree that you really need OTS working with the prince. He's the best character killer in the army and, if he can't do it, no-one else is going to (in combat). The loss of ToL was a big deal: losing the ward re-rolls as well reLly hits our prince's power against the hardest opponents, whohe's meant to fight. In challenges, of course, the star lance on the BSB, which kicks butt against enemy units on the charge, doesn't help at all. So, I thought it best after my first 3 games (the third being Bretts - I played it differently to you but we'll get onto that shortly), to return the BSB to his old role which was, primarily, to support the prince.

So, he's now toting Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown and Other Trickster's Shard, with dragon armour, and the Prince now has Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone and Potion of Foolhardiness with heavy armour and shield. 5 attacks on the big charge forcing ward re-rolls is much, much better than 4 attacks without, and I think losing the lance from a less important model is, in the end, a small price to pay. And at least the BSB gets to keep his ASF and armour save when not charging. He's not as hitty as he once was, but his 1+AS and Crown are decent protection. And there's apoheosis, of course, which along with Unforging (also tremendous support for combat characters), has determined somewhat my choice of magic...

Swordie, what fun with the new book if we can't look at so e of our new toys? Star lance had dropped but I still like the Book and Banner very, very much. There are temptations in how to use both (and Shield, and Martial Prowess), which can prove unhelpful.

Stormie's army had loads of lovely new toys when I saw it - griffon noble, frost phoenix, Wayshard Anointed in spears, and I must say it looked like an absolute blast to play. I intend to remain rather more conventional, in that I want to hem opponents in and drive into their forces with heavy cavalry, but still have a force balanced enough to take on any opponent. The new book produces a fine army for this, but we need to be wary of over-indulging in some of our new rules... This is what the next article is about.

Haven't dealt with any of the above posts in detail (or at all!), but I'll have another crack once I'm home and off this damn phone. Cheers all.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1240 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote:Swordie, what fun with the new book if we can't look at so e of our new toys?
This is it. 8th edition books obviously have far fewer army-specific magic items and in the case of the HE, the Book looks almost necessary if you want a magic phase that can overload the enemy defence. The Loremaster gives a great spell repertoire so is an excellent utility pick but without bonus power dice or some other buff, 'magic-heavy' seems to require the Book.

The Banner sums up everything I struggle with in the new book. Awesome vs some things, pointless vs other things. If you're running a DP bus or Swordmasters/Lions in numbers it's hard to overlook. It just seems to me that the solutions are so extreme now. If you want Core infantry to work, you have to have Shadow magic. Where is the brake on just running cav Core, fast hard characters and assorted flyers (no MC I concede) around like a firework display, as the metagame encourages?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1241 Post by Seredain »

SA you're following the trend of picking up on my topic before even posting it! I've actually ended up thinking from these first few games that I am going to prefer a more even balance between core infantry and cavalry than I've been running up to now. I find that the cavalry bus works much better in conjunction with infantry than with just more cavalry units. The swords, and how you can use them depending on the rest of the army's makeup, are the clincher. I deal with this in the next article (it's a biggie).

As for our new items, the thing with all new books is that, with fewer items in each, there is bound to be more duplication than there was before. I've never minded, in principle, taking items or units that loads of other people took. I took a cav prince helm bus because I thought it would work, and I left the old Book of Hoeth at home because I thought it was too many points to put into a caster with no save who was quite likely to miscast. The Banner of Sorcery was good but a luxury I just couldn't afford.

As for the toys I've settled on now, the Book is wonderful because, unlike the old model, it allows (even encourages) you to throw fewer dice at your spells. With +1 to cast High Magic, this improves reliability of casting but reduces (unless you already have a 6) the risk of miscasting, the collective risk of these two things being the main reason I never liked going magic-heavy in the last book. In defence, always a big concern for me, the re-roll is just superb. Since so many of the High spells are so cheap, meanwhile, and we have the utility of two signature spells, that the second caster has lots to do even in a middling phase, getting the most out of the dice we are given. The new Ring of Fury, another 1-dice gem, follows the same pattern. In all I think this new army book delivers the flexible High Magic spam phase I always liked, but much better than its predecessor. As ever, being able to destroy magic items remains crucial for me, and Apotheosis is also an excellent spell for a helm bus which lost one armour re-roll from its characters.

The ward buffs from Shield add another layer of utility too. If your casters get more cheap spells off, the whole unit benefits. Used correctly, you get loads of bang for your buck with this magic lore. So, for me, the reasons to spend points on magic have increased while the associated risks have fallen (unless you go the Shadow route and keep throwing more dice). The fact that we can spam up to 3 missiles per phase is also huge when it comes to board control, added to our new shooting phase. I'm tempted by Shadow on the second mage (Miasma + Glory is cheeky), but I do always feel, in the end, that spells that kill models are a useful thing to double up on and, in any case, having that 2nd High caster allows you the benefits of taking the more situational spells from the lore without losing the good all-comers ones. I'm not quite decided on this, as we'll see, but I'm certainly settled on High for the archmage, and the Book of Hoeth is one of the deciding factors (3 re-rolled on 5 spells with a free ward on each cast? That's a useful trick to have up your sleeve!).

As for the flag, I think it's almost too good an opportunity to pass up for anyone who still wants to use a powerful infantry unit without risking cataclysm from damage spells, Hell cannons, Hail of Doom Arrow etc, dwarf machines, terrorgheists, bloodcrushers, monstrous enemy characters or... all daemons. You're right that it's useless against some things, but there's a lot of stuff we hate out there which it's aweskme against! I still want an infantry unit that hits like a train and kills things in combat, so for now I'm firmly fixed on the 3 ranks of swordmasters. That's a juicy target for all of the above, and investing 50 points to close a good chunk of that vulnerability down just feels like a bit of a no-brainer. If one of my casters is in the unit, meanwhile, the Banner also gives me a miscast-proof bodyguard, while enemy Death magic won't ever be able to double up on my lord targets meaning, against those casters, I can save my scroll for protecting the prince.

These are definitely going to be popular items, then, but there are good reasons for that!

I'll get these overdue posts up as soon as I can boys - as its is, I'm in the office all weekend preparing for qualification, and still only using my phone.. Booo.


Edited for bad phone spelling.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1242 Post by Syleth »

Hi Seredain,
Have you considered using Life on your archmage?
I have read and understand why u have chosen High, but here are my thoughts:
- i personally feel High to be weak once you are in Combat or if you want to aid a unit in combat. Its not that there are no tools, but none is as superb as shadow spells or flesh stone
- with life u get a chance to dwellers. Tool to deal with huge units plus snipe mages
-u keep two soul quench from ring and support mage
- lifebloom and rebirth replace apotheosis or exceed
- life signature for a 1dice+reroll attempt at a 5+ regen. Or 4+ with throne
- throne for miscast protection. ALSO if up u can reroll the lowest dice even if already rolled a 6, as u are miscast protected. This is huge with the book.
- throne also is cheap but RiP, so it helps in dispell protection as enemy might want to get rid
- u lose walk. Enough said
- u lose unforgiving. Bad, but this new version is not that great.

- in summary, with life main + high support you gain much more combat versatility at the expense of precombat and mobility tools. Is that enough? For me yes, at least to give it a try! :)

Thanks for reading
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1243 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Seredain wrote:Swordie, what fun with the new book if we can't look at so e of our new toys?
I agree! Hence I am looking forward to reading your battle reports which will inspire to use less obvious choices in the book :D
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1244 Post by Seredain »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Seredain wrote:Swordie, what fun with the new book if we can't look at so e of our new toys?
I agree! Hence I am looking forward to reading your battle reports which will inspire to use less obvious choices in the book :D
Haha! Touche :)

I am certainly up for testing our new magic and items. Our other toys? Sisters seem almost essential for anyone with a half-decent shooting phase, without a flame banner BSB. Shadow warriors look brilliant for their points but, for me at least, they're proving hard to squeeze in. Griffon nobles look great fun - an ASF monster charging with str 6 is properly fearsome, though this unit is perhaps the quinessential glass cannon. Especially against cannons. The big birds? I think both are great, but it's the problem with cannons again... any model you've got a reasonable chance of taking off on Turn 1 against certain armies strikes me as darn risky for an all-comers list. Same story with skycutters really. These are risky models to play with all-comers, and I am extremely risk-averse!

If you field them all together than you've got a lot of targets to run around with a dragon lord or cav bus but, for me, fielding units with staying power is an important defensive counterpoint to the silver helms. I'd like to have a go with a phoenix and griffon noble in time, then, but I think we're looking at larger games for me.

Syleth,

Life is definitely worth a look. I used to run it myself, because it's great for fragile elves and it melts the large units which we can struggle with. High does both these things as well, however, and has the virtue having the rare abilities of magic item destruction (not as good as Vaul's but the character snipe is reasonable compensation), movement, drain magic and a sig magic missile. There is a lot to do with a spell selection like that.

Life is fantastic but, by contrast, it really revolves around only 2 spells: throne and Dwellers. If you get them both, you got a nasty phase: your opponent has to choose between dispelling Throne and dispelling Dwellers, neither of which he wants going through. If you only get one of these, your opponent's dispelling options become much easier. I think it's best for loremasters or 6 magic levels, then, but in any case I think I'm going to stick with High for now.

Life's a great lore though- good defence, helps us grind combats, unique miscast protection and it has Dwellers. Just watch out for tournaments. Lots of them nerf Dwellers by allowing LOS saves.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1245 Post by SpellArcher »

I feel you have picked up on many of the advantages of the new book in ways that other players haven't so much Seredain. I personally would always feel unhappy running Lions/Swords in a 30 when MP gives you the option of 21 for example. Similarly HE get +1 to cast High Magic which it makes a lot of sense to use. The Swordmaster/Shield of Saphery synergy is also significant. The reason I've stopped playing HE's for now is that I can't get the same synergies going with my army and the new book.

As you say, World Dragon is very, very useful against a lot of the strongest things in the game. Anything which lets a unit roll over Schoolcrushers has to be golden. I just wish the writers had chosen a less 'all or nothing' route to buffing the army. Something to play with re Spears and LSG, different ways of making Lions/Swords stand up against the worst things out there.

Whether the new High Magic phase is better than the old I can't say, as I haven't run it. I would say that you're currently running a lot more points in mages than previously, so the phase has to be better. Whether a solo AM with the Book and the new Lore would be better than one with Banner of Sorcery/Scroll and the old is a moot point I feel. It's worth noting that Furion has switched to Life/Scroll on a solo AM. He runs Helm Bus, 3 x RBT, Frost Phoenix, 30ish Lions with WD, usual support.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1246 Post by Seredain »

Interesting points SA. In lots of ways I think this new book gives with one hand and takes with the other. Martial Prowess is a case in point. If we want our high-strength elites to hit as hard as they did, we need to field them in 3 ranks. We need to spend more points to get the same hitting power. Of course we gain access to improved durability with bigger numbers, as well as a wider range of character-led synergies (via High Magic, the Loremaster's spell selection or an Anointed). Getting ward saves on swordmasters (still our biggest hitters in 3 ranks), and solving their chief weakness with a few cheap casts, is potentially a massive, massive deal. But you have to spend a lot of points to get these superpowers. Adding the Banner is just more points on more superpower for a unit like this, albeit I'm not too worried about it being useless. In most games you face there will be damaging ranged magic, enemy characters toting magic weapons and the risk of miscasts from your own archmage (assuming you're deploying him for Shield support). As already said, it also becomes much easier to concentrate your dispel dice if you know one unit is basically immune to enemy spells.

Old Magic vs New Magic

It's exactly the same story with the new High Magic phase. There are lots of spells to cast, but they're quite specialist. With two signatures to choose from (you can't have both if you want a decent set of the other spells), I think you need the wide spell selection, and therefore the second caster, to get the best out of the lore as a whole. Apart from anything else, if you want the amazing super-wards (effectively spells in themselves), you need to cast lots of spells and bleed your opponent's dispel dice dry. New High Magic does this well with the +1 to cast (if you can get into range to open up a decent number of targets - preparatory movement is important with this lore), but you need that threatening spell selection and, although the process is much more effective with the Book, more performance takes much more points than my old 5-spell spam.

As it happens, for me the problem with magic was never that it was expensive, it was that it got expensive for rapidly diminishing returns. I always liked the idea of a support mage toting metal magic, for example, but I knew that, most of the time, I'd be using him or my main caster to cause the big damage, not both. More importantly, in relying on the casting of big spells, I'd risk suffering miscasts and ruining those expensive magic phases. This was why I liked Life and old High magic: the first had miscast protection and the second was cheap to cast, albeit it had a limited number of spells. In either case, I was happy to use the dice available for free from the winds of magic. And that's exactly where the new High magic excels. It's a cheap lore with the +1 to cast, and especially with the Book, but it's also got lots more spells available thanks to the signatures, so you get more from that second caster for the old number of dice (as well as the opportunity to take the Book without losing a scroll). Having 7 spells across two casters (with the ring), is a good thing when you can get most of them off in a big phase, or even 4 of them off in a small phase. It's not that the new phase is necessarily more powerful, then (though, Vaul's aside, I think it is), it's that I can do more with the dice the game gives me without necessarily risking more miscasts. Being able to take 3 cheap 2d6 missiles is also, chiefly, what persuades me that I can live without the third repeater and keep the chariot (because charging over skirmishers is quicker than shooting them).

We can't have it all

But yes, as you say, it's expensive. And as I hinted at earlier, I think that's the biggest difference between the new and the old army book. We've got some great new synergies going on, but we have you pay more for them than for older equivalents. Martial Prowess replacing SoA makes it more expensive for us to get real hitting power into our lions and swordmasters: you need to buy that extra rank. Radiant Gem of Hoeth, a 45 point item, has been replaced by the loremaster - better but much more expensive for those wanting a caster-fighter to lead their infantry. We used to get flaming archers by taking a 10-point banner: easy. Now we need to spend 112+ points on Sisters before we get enough flaming arrows to really make a difference. -1 Strength from a frost phoenix is fantastic, but it's also 240 points on a monster with only 4 attacks. Even reavers are a double-edged sword. Yes they're core, but for those taking them instead of eagles, you're paying at least 30 more points to perform your harassment duties. Being core choices doesn't make them cheap. Same with helms. A large unit of 13 helms is significantly more expensive than the smaller bodyguard model. It's a more powerful knight unit with Martial Prowess, but what are you losing elsewhere?

In the end, it seems to me that the trick with the new High Elves is going to be carefully choosing which of our new synergistic powers we take, and which we leave behind on grounds of economy. If we take them all, we'll have very little army left to play with, as you seem to fear SA. That kind of army is not for me. Indeed, in the end I found that my own first list, after 4 games, was too "bitty" for my taste for precisely these reasons. It had some stonking abilities but was ultimately all about the swordmasters, the helm bus and the ranged phases: two big units and a collection of small satellites.

Here's a game where this combination worked very well: Warriors of Chaos

Deployment

Image

So, this guy's got A Nurgle level 4 and BSB (in the warriors), ward save Disc Exhaulted, 7 Tzeentch Knights, 3 Bloodcrushers, 2 Khorne chariots, 10 HW+Sh marauders (a reserve mage-bunker I guess), some dogs and a hell cannon.
Last edited by Seredain on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1247 Post by SpellArcher »

It's a good point re magic efficiency. Look at Wood Elf armies and you'll see Lvl4, Beasts, Scroll as the sole magic, again and again. There are hero level casters and other Arcane options available. But the lack of something like Banner of Sorcery or the Book means that investing in a second caster is risky because not only do they suffer from restricted lores, there is almost no way to boost the phase and power stuff through. Some guys run Lvl4 Life, Lvl4 Beasts but if you roll low for Winds that's an awful lot of points sitting idle.

As we know, once you start getting up to 7 spells or so the sheer choice makes all of your casts very likely to be spells that will have a big impact. I too like support casters but can never seem to justify the points for them. The old book and the Wood Elf book both suffered from very high points costs per model which always seemed to make an extra unit more attractive than the magic man. Now HE's can get more bodies on the table if they want but as you say, other needs encourage sinking points into specialist areas which reduces the 'boots on table' pool.

I like the look of that Warriors army. It's got infantry! So maybe not the most brutally honed list but some balance to it and some teeth. No DP but a unit of Schoolcrushers. No Chimerae but a Hellcannon. 5+ Ward banner on the Knights I'm guessing? Interesting that you've matched up your best combat troops vs his, confident that you can win.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1248 Post by John Rainbow »

I've been running a sort-of cav. hybrid list similar to yours in my games recently. I however, have chosen to focus around a unit of Dragon Princes with the banner and have tried to pump it full of characters. I've gotten around the issue of diminishing returns on attacks with having characters in rank 1 (the advantage of using the Silver Helm bus over DPs) by including the stubborn crown on my BSB which then allows the unit to be deployed wider if required without worrying about steadfast, etc.

My issue with my army is also magical support at the moment - something you seem to be thinking about too. Previously, I've been using High Magic on an Archmage with the book and Khaine's Ring and buffing my unit's ward save. The range of the spells is a problem however as it encourages you to 'close the gap' and movement becomes much more important - if you move within 18" and get it slightly wrong/end up with a flat phase, you're liable to eat a charge off of something nasty. The other options I have been considering then are Metal and Shadow. Life magic is out for me because, as you said, the lore really only works well if you get both Dwellers & Throne. This then encourages a second mage to be taken to roll spells first which is something I don't want to do - I'm more than happy with the single book mage. As you said yourself, diminishing returns really comes into effect in this case. I've never been a big fan of Heavens with HEs either so that is also out for me.

This then leaves me with Metal and Shadow, both of which are fantastic for different, and fairly obvious, reasons. I am currently leaning towards metal as it seems like it will be a real 'anti-meta' lore in my local scene. I frequently see lots of heavy armour i.e. School Crushers, Brets, all-cav. Empire net lists (with Stank) and such. The only problem might be when I come up against Ogres but in that case I guess you hope for buffs rather than missiles. The other nice thing is that AFAIK, Final Transmutation has the longest range of any of the 'mega-death' spells and is also very reliable in that it always affects each army in the same way i.e. roll a 5/6 and you're gone, whereas some of the other big spells are somewhat match-up dependent. I am interested to see how the DP unit does without the ward save buffs from High magic. Hopefully I'll get to playtest this week if all goes to plan with work [-o<
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1249 Post by Seredain »

Feeling the work pressure, John. Why can't these people who pay us realise that we'd just quite like to play with armies every now and then rather than work? Huh?

Honestly I think switching up your magic is a great idea if it stops you putting all of your characters into one cavalry unit! I'd be really worried about facing that unit, but I'd also be really worried about using it and running into a Final Transmutation straight to the face. Yeeeesh. Since DP's are both cheaper and better than they used to be, I reckon you can get on just fine with them! How many other characters are in there exactly?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1250 Post by Seredain »

SpellArcher wrote:I like the look of that Warriors army. It's got infantry! So maybe not the most brutally honed list but some balance to it and some teeth. No DP but a unit of Schoolcrushers. No Chimerae but a Hellcannon. 5+ Ward banner on the Knights I'm guessing? Interesting that you've matched up your best combat troops vs his, confident that you can win.
It's cool isn't it? I think Nurgle warriors rock, as does nurgle magic, and there are enough big hitters here to give me lots to think about. A hell cannon is always a bloody pain. You need to send something big to take it down but, if you do, all that other heavy stuff is leaping down your throat. Including those ward save Knights! Now that's some tasty cavalry. I don't see the point in playing all chariot lists. Instant loss for Blood and Glory = not a real army.

As previously discussed, I'll wizz through this so we can get to list changes. Luckily, since discovering the power of maps, I can cover everything pretty clearly without producing walls of text. Thank you, Battle Chronicler...
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1251 Post by SpellArcher »

Remember the dark, dark days of late 7th edition? When infantry blocks in tourney armies were an endangered species? It's noteworthy that really good players like Ant Spiers and Russ Veal still took them. Now as then, my belief is that armies with them can be very competitive but they are certainly harder to play properly and require to be combined very well with your other troops. As you may have noticed Seredain, I had the great joy of playing the 15 chariot army at this event and my infantry failed to cope with it. But that had more to do with bad play and the lack of flexibility in my list.

Interesting that the Polish guys assessed the new M3 Hellcannon as 'twice as expensive Trebuchet'. Not sure my Waywatchers would have cleaned it up as easily as they did a treb in a recent game...
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1252 Post by Seredain »

Haha, you've got the hop on those polish guys. The problem with hellcannons isn't their shooting so much as the fact that you can't use light units to take them out in combat. That used to be one of the most important uses of scouts: now with all these monster cannons running around 40k style, you have to think that it's gone a little too far and scouts have rather less to do.

I certainly remember the dark days of 5th/6th! For me, the excesses of 7th were predicated the last time we had access to all cavalry core. Back then I was a fully signed up member of the 'cavalry and missile units only' brigade, and greatly enjoyed putting the boot into other armies predominantly composed of knights and monsters. And then, one day, an old friend of mine (with a brilliant tactical mind, though he didn't play all that much), rocked up with a huge line of orc infantry, backed up with a cheapish wyvern character and a load of war machines. He marched his units forward, and he absolutely steamrolled me. I literally couldn't shift any of his units off the board and, slowly but absolutely surely, my army was ground to pieces and Prince Seredain (back then represented by that fantastic metal Silver Helm champion), could only charge in, break, rally, charge in, break and, his unit finally annihilated, flee in shame off the board. Ever since that day, every time I've built an army, I've thought about this old friend showing up with a wall of well-supported infantry. I love fighting infantry armies now, but it's a bit like Batman using bats as his inspiration: it's because he's afraid of them!*

I love Infantry

The reason I think infantry is still the heart and soul of this game (in 8th more than ever) is because, firstly, it has more wounds and attacks per point spent than any other unit type. You get more attacks per points spent out of swordmasters or white lions than you do out of a monster (it should be noted that thunderstomps, unlike basic attacks, are not universally applicable). You also need to put a lot of wounds on (or ranks into) an infantry unit before you can claim the points for it. Infantry is therefore less prone to rolls of bad luck: more attacks and more wounds means more dice: a redundancy of bad luck that doesn't mean the end of your unit when you roll six 1's (especially if it's steadfast at the end of it all).With the right kind of weapons or the wrong swing of luck, by contrast, non-steadfast monsters can get killed or broken and instantly surrender a ton of points. A couple of doom divers render the average armoured cavalry unit just a small unit of T3 models. These can be brittle units in a game of luck.

It is, therefore, much easier to direct the movement of monsters (hide!) and cavalry units (rush!), with your ranged power, than it is an infantry unit with wounds to spare. See the psychological effect of a mealy 2 bolt throwers on a daemon prince and you'll see what I mean. The attacks/wounds ratio also makes infantry, generally speaking, the best target for your magical augments, simply because a weaponskill or strength-boosting spell does more where it's boosting a larger number of attacks, and a ward or regen spell does more for a larger number of wounds. These wounds also gives a unit critical mass. You can take a load of models out of an infantry unit but, as long as there are a certain number left, it can stand steadfast and keep fighting. Almost uniquely, infantry can serve a useful purpose against any unit even where it loses combat.

This basic strength in attacks and numbers means infantry, by its nature, performs equally well in attack or defence. This means that it can control board space without having to rely on a specific set of circumstances, in particular a successful charge, coming about to give it effectiveness. By contrast, if a cavalry unit or chariot (relying on movement and temporary strength/hit bonuses) doesn't get the charge, it usually isn't worth the points you've spent on it (the notable exceptions are units like the helm bus, where high strength ASF characters and excellent leadership effectively turn the unit into mobile armoured infantry). For units like this, board space is therefore something to be exploited but also feared: you want to get within charge range, but you don't want to get charged. Infantry doesn't care about charges (except in the face of lance and/or impact hits in enough numbers to destroy its critical mass of attacks and/or steadfast): it will fight just the same regardless. Properly supported and defended, therefore, infantry controls board space better than any other type of unit. It therefore gives you the best chance of hemming your opponent in, pinning his forces in such a way as to make them sitting ducks for your fast attack units - like a prickly fence. If you can't find a way to break enemy infantry with those fast attack units, however, anyone can show up with some basic rank and file and grind your best laid plans to a screaming halt.

Now, I have spent most of this thread trying to argue that all-infantry armies are a dumb idea. And I hold to that. Infantry is the slowest type of unit, it's the easiest target for harrassers and it's the easiest type of unit to put wounds on with the largest number of 8th Edition weapons: a pattern that has only increased with the new prevalence of monstrous cavalry and core chariots. So, if it's not properly supported, anyone can shove a couple of templates and 5 khorne chariots into an infantry unit and grind it into nothingness. Properly supported, however, infantry will block and then overwhelm units like this, without losing any points in the way that expensive single models will. Infantry is how you control the board without relying on those rather random charge rolls: that hard place on which you smash the enemy with your rock units. It's no surprise, of course, that movement is the key to this support: in particular shooting/direct damage spells and cavalry charges to force your opponent into inconvenient movement, disrupting his formation, and cheap fast harassment units to block the movement he is able to make. But get those elements right: win the support battle and then advance your infantry alongside your specialist weapons to break some faces!

So, although you can't build a whole army out of it, infantry is still a crucial part of the tapestry of combined-arms armies. I have dabbled, with this first draft, in fielding an army that was light on core infantry and, before long, I came to regret it (as we shall get to shortly). For now, though, I'll crack on with this Warriors game. It started, incidentally, as a battle of the armoured units, and finished as an infantry showdown...


*This works as a useful metaphor, but please don't think I'm really comparing myself to Batman.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1253 Post by Seredain »

High Elves v Warriors of Chaos Summary – 2400 points

I got the first turn, moved up on the right to close down some space to hem the enemy fast units in a bit and opened up with a salvo of normal and magical missiles. After wiping out 10 hounds, I lobbed a single bolt at the Western Khorne chariot and skewered it for 2 wounds. I also, importantly, got Hand of Glory off on my helm bus for +1 movement.

Image

My opponent wanted to tempt me into a charge with the helm bus and counter-attack with the bloodcrushers and chariot, so he moved his Tzeentch knights up infront of my helms. Everything else moved a bit, except the wounded khorne chariot which headed straight for the nearest target, hoping to charge something before I shot it to death.

Image

Thing is, I was quite happy to take a charge from Bloodcrushers with a steadfast silver helm block toting re-rollable leadership 10 and an ASF Giant Blade. More to the point, I was happy to charge a single rank of Tzeentch knights (no champion), and just run them over. My cavalry would then become my anvil and my swordmasters, in close contact to the helms, would swing in and start chopping. So I declared my charge and the Tzeentch knights fled... a pathetic 4 inches. Poor guy. This was too good an opportunity to miss, so I bombed my M10 helms forward at the Tzeentch knights and rolled the 9 I needed to catch them, reforming the helms to face West. Meanwhile I drew out my opponent's dispel dice with Unforging, buffed the WS of the helms by +2 and then and pumped a load of Soul Quench missiles into the Nurgle warriors, killing a bunch. I then bolt throwered the Western Khorne chariot off the table. The Tzeentch disc guy took another bolt but he blocked it with the Charmed Shield.

Image

My opponent responded in the only way he could: he charged the helms with the bloodcrushers and chariot. I lost a rank of knights, but I killed a bloodcrusher outright first and laid two wounds on another. The combat stuck, and I would grind the other bloodcrushers and chariot down over the next few turns (although some absolutely terrible To Hit rolls from the prince meant this took much longer than it should have done). The hellcannon misfired this turn and ate all its crew, too (ouch...). It would spend the rest of the game chasing sisters around. My opponent also moved his disc hero behind my lines, being careful to avoid a charge from my chariot. As it would turn out, this guy only had a 4+ ward, so he was rather more afraid of impact hits than I first expected.

Image

Image

After that, and losing my repeaters to the Tzeentch hero (who I eventually pinned with archers and flank-charged with the small helms), I advanced upon the Nurgle warriors with my collection of units, pinning them with my eagles and throwing missiles all the way. A burst of movement from Walk Between Worlds put the lions in their flank while the chariot approached the rear. With the swordmasters and helms on the other side of them, my opponent decided to call it GG rather than face a 4-way charge. Game over, and another big win.

Image

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One scary moment: my helm bus took a 12 dice Nurgle phase to the face when I failed my only shot at a dispel roll. Luckily (it being that kind of game), I only lost some ordinary knights, but rolling all those dice on toughness tests was an unpleasant experience! Otherwise, it was job well done for the High Elves, and roll on Round 3.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1254 Post by Jimmy »

Nice one Cavalry Prince.

Thanks for the report and running commentary and tactical analysis are always good reads.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1255 Post by Iluvatar »

Your posts are always good reading, Seredain. Tactical considerations such as your infantry description may sometimes seem too abstract for immediate application, but they do provide a level of abstraction that is not frequent and they help in understanding the big picture. In the end, seeing both your theory and the in-game application provides what is needed for a long-term* improvement of gaming abilities, especially for someone who doesn't play a lot like me

And of course, the reports are great as well!

* long term is important here. Reading tactical stuff is all nice and fun, but if you don't get the feeling of it, it won't serve in the end - and that "feeling" can be gained by playing often (which I can't do), or reading long-term threads with the same ideas tested, demonstrated, improved. Thanks for your dedication to this log!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1256 Post by Seredain »

Cheers Jimmy, very kind of you to say so.

Iluvatar, thanks to you too. Occasionally it's useful to stay abstract when talking tactics because, firstly, there is so much variety in Warhammer ("infantry" as a term covers some incredibly diffuse units!), that it's hard to speak about game tactics as a whole without keeping to very general principles: the randomness of dice rolls, movement and the importance of controlling board space perhaps being the three constants in any discussion. Secondly, however, it's useful because it reminds us to think of the distinctive properties of each of the unit types we have access to. So we start to think: what distinctive properties do swordmasters have that dragon princes (as an example) don't? Is my army lacking these properties? How best can I use them? You can run the same types of comparison between our core infantry and cavalry, and it's important to remind ourselves from time to time, I think, how most cavalry and infantry will play very different roles in any army: that it isn't just about having, or lacking, a 2+ armour save.

Luckily these games, and the ones I have coming up, are quite useful in demonstrating the effects that infantry composition has on the way my army plays. I will review this last game in this context when I get home, before moving on to games 3 and 4 where we get to look at the same issue from a different angle.

Thanks again.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1257 Post by RE.Lee »

Great points on infantry tactics. I'm afraid our infantry took a hit because the magic phase suffered, but still we can field a decent force on foot. I think the new lord choices help somewhat. Personally, I find few sights in warhammer as epic as the loremaster leading his white lion bodyguards into the fray, boosting them with his spells on the way.

I really enjoyed the battle report, too.
cheers, Lee

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1258 Post by Seredain »

Thanks very much R.E. I actually think that, in the above respects, infantry hasn't changed at all with our new magic phase. Certainly it's harder to force huge buffs like Mindrazor through, but using spells like this to allow your infantry to kill stuff simply made them like cavalry and chariot units: effective under particular circumstances only. The particular strengths of infantry as a type, its large number of attacks, redundancy of wounds and steadfast, were constants back then and remain so now.

As a High Magic user, I've actually got a lot more to look forward to with our new magic phase as compared with the old. Numerous cheap spells give my infantry toughness like it's never had before, and for each of those spells, I get to re-roll a power dice: mage-friendly power like I've never had before for 55 points! And magic defence! Even the missiles serve their purpose here. If you can't get Hand of Glory off, you can always let of 4d6 strength 4 hits and support your infantry by burning away a chunk of the opposing unit...

I'm going to crack on with my Game 3 now, against Hero Bus Bretonnians. Be right back.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1259 Post by SpellArcher »

Scouts are an interesting case now. Quite right that war machine hunting is more difficult, with harder machines often deployed behind protective units. Scouts also cost you a deployment drop which can be very significant if you need to deploy your best units late. But they give you a unit that has more deployment possibilities, letting you tip the balance of one sector of the field at times.

I'm a cavalry player. Even the fast options I had in the Chariot Prince army left me feeling the slight lack of a proper heavy cavalry unit. But as you know Seredain, I still feel there's something wrong without a couple of units or so of infantry, the heart of the army. The good news is of course, as you've explained, that there are still some very good reasons to take infantry blocks in a meta of fast armour.

Illuvatar, I can't stress enough how important I think Seredain's style of tactical analysis is. It has really opened the minds of so many players and let us expand and improve on our own tactics, even when we're running somewhat varied lists. In this case, I well remember Russ Veal saying similar things at the tail end of 7th, when infantry was similarly under siege. Even I, as an average player, could understand that he was right and can see the mechanics behind what Seredain is saying.

What tended to be the case back then was that successful blocks were either cheap, very killy or Stubborn. I don't think this has changed terribly much, although Steadfast can now work like Stubborn if you build the unit right. Of course this can also be true of other slow troops types. Treemen for example, benefit immensely from being Stubborn. Building on what Seredain said, if an infantry unit has a strong chance of taking a charge and holding, you can often completely turn the tables with a buff like Wildform or the intervention of another unit.

What struck me about the Warriors game was the lack of tools to control the board in the Warriors army, compared to the High Elf. The hounds were shot off turn 1, leaving the guy with no chaff units and almost no way to restrict Seredain's stuff. Yes he was a bit unlucky with the Flee from the Knights and the Hellcannon chomping it's crew but his options were already restricted by not having enough disposable units/shooting and by being somewhat out-deployed. Essentially, the initiative was conceded to the elves.
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Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1260 Post by Seredain »

SpellArcher wrote:Illuvatar, I can't stress enough how important I think Seredain's style of tactical analysis is. It has really opened the minds of so many players and let us expand and improve on our own tactics, even when we're running somewhat varied lists. In this case, I well remember Russ Veal saying similar things at the tail end of 7th, when infantry was similarly under siege. Even I, as an average player, could understand that he was right and can see the mechanics behind what Seredain is saying.
SA that's very kind of you to say so. I do think it's useful to take a bird's eye view of your army and how it plays to properly see some of its weaknesses I think. It's all very well thinking that Martial Prowess makes our units better in 3 ranks, that having core cavalry makes our infantry irrelevant, that our core units are simply a 'tax' because they aren't as good as our elites. But if you put all these excellent ingredients together, you can end up with too much of a good thing, and an army that doesn't work as well as it could. Like making a dessert entirely of butter. Much better, sometimes, to bear in mind the generic properties of the units we have available and make sure we take units which not only do their own work well, but which allows your other units to play well too. For me, it was about discovering the difference in an army field 13 Helms Full Command with 18 Archers with Musician, and 10 Helms with Musician+Standard and 24 Archers Musician + Standard. Without giving to much away now, the difference is pretty massive!
SpellArcher wrote:What struck me about the Warriors game was the lack of tools to control the board in the Warriors army, compared to the High Elf. The hounds were shot off turn 1, leaving the guy with no chaff units and almost no way to restrict Seredain's stuff. Yes he was a bit unlucky with the Flee from the Knights and the Hellcannon chomping it's crew but his options were already restricted by not having enough disposable units/shooting and by being somewhat out-deployed. Essentially, the initiative was conceded to the elves.
I think this is one of the reasons Warriors benefit so much from having flying monsters in special: we can't just move out and swarm them, like I did here, until those beasts are down or at least weak enough to be taken down in a single round of combat. Especially if we're fielding infantry in numbers, we need a serious amount of ranged firepower to stop models like this dominating the movement phase. Chaos has other options - the disc hero is a pain in the arse – but for sure I think it needs more than 2 units of dogs or high elves (in particular) can get board control too easily. We don't have anything as powerful as the hell cannon, but the cumulative effect of bolt throwers, core archers, rare archers and magic missiles is rather impressive at wiping out chaff units.

Still, the risk from flyers to elf infantry is real enough that I am resolved now to get that third repeater in. They're too cheap and too potentially influential not to enjoy more than before. Guess what I've taken out...?
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
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