Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
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- Swordmaster of Hoeth
- Southern Sentinel
- Posts: 4479
- Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
- Location: On the path of an outcast
Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
Hello!
Time for battle 4 where I faced Tomb Kings. Another army I do not know very well as I have played against them only once so far. My army list for those who read my reports separately
Prince - Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Pigeon Pendant
Archmage - Dispel Scroll (Life)
BSB - Heavy Armour, Barded Steed, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light, Great Weapon
30 Spearelves, Full Command, Gleaming Pendant
12 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
12 Archers, Light Armour, Standard
12 Swordmasters (Archmage)
10 White Lion, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame
5 Dragon Princes
1 Tiranoc Chariot
8 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician (Prince, BSB)
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
1 Great Eagle
Opponent and pre-battle thoughts
First my opponent army list (unfortunately I do not remember all the details )
Tomb King with Wizarding Hat (obtained lore of Light and got Burning Gaze and Banishment)
BSB with Standard of the Sands
High Liche Priest - probably Collar of Shepesh and Hieratic Jar
Liche Priest - Dispel Scroll
Liche Priest - Casket of Souls
24 Skeleton Bowmen
10 Skeleton Bowmen
10 Skeleton Bowmen
3 Chariots
3 Chariots
1 x Tomb Swarm
3 x Tomb Scorpions
6 Ushabti
2 x Screaming Skull Catapult
I remembered that Incantations are quite relentless and that I need to assume some of them will go through anyway. With Tomb King as a wizard it would be even more difficult. I didn't fear his chariots that much and I knew I need to get to his lines as soon as possible, as 4 catapult shots per turn is not something I was happy to face. His bowmen had inferior range so I hoped I could thin them down a little with my own archers and repeaters, before his catapults would destroy my war machines.
Deployment
Red bulls eyes indicate where two Scorpions are going to gig out
Armies arrayed for battle. Characters not yet deployed
As I said I wanted to play a little shooting duel but at the same time race across the table (the ruins were impassible terrain) to get to enemy lines. White Lions, Chariot and Eagle were to move forward full speed as well to provide target saturation (with eagle hunting down the catapult). With Spearelves and the Knights pressing forward against big bowmen unit, which I intended to thin down with shooting, I hoped to destroy them and get to the other catapult and Casket. If Ushabti, Tomb Scorpion or Chariots wanted to intervene I would happily charge any one of them with my Knights and use the opening on the eastern flank to move my Dragon Princes to the rear of the enemy lines. Well, so much for the plan and as always my opponent wins first turn.
All characters, with an exception of Casket, joined big Bowmen unit. On HE part Prince and BSB joined the Knights as usual and Archmage joined Spearelves.
TK Turn 1
Bold move by TK pays off more than their commander hoped for.
Situation after combat phase
Movement: Since incatations can make units move and shoot during magic phase I might not be always correct as to when exactly particular move or shooting occurred. I hope it will not be too confusing. If in doubt simply ask Chariots used their vanguard move, while archers shifted forward slightly to get into range.
Magic & Shooting: Catapults started their crazy barrage but despite incantations they wounded Repeater only once. Big Bowmen unit fired two times at the Archers and wiped them out. That panicked nearby White Lions who run through the Chariot and panicked it too. Just great. The incantation which allowed eastern chariots to charge was not dispelled as I wanted to save dice for magic missiles. Chariots got a good roll for charge range and stormed in.
Combat: All available attacks went against Archmage and since two chariots touched his base there were quite a few of them. First 6 attacks from chariots (4 horses and 2 drivers) ... 3 hit ... two wound. Not good. Then 2 attacks from warriors. With S4 due to spears. 2 hit and 1 wound. Archmage is dead. Ouch! Simply fantastic! Before I even moved I lost my Archmage against relentless magic phase and my flank collapsed due to panic.
HE Turn 1
HE try to consolidate their lines
Charges: Since the power of the Standard of the Sands was invoked, HE could not march. The Knights decided to charge Chariots just to make sure they are destroyed.
Movement: White Lions rallied but the Chariot didn't and run out of the table. Great Eagle used its 10" movement to withdraw and stay out of range of Skeleton Bowmen. Dragon Princes moved 8" forward.
Shooting: Repeaters and Archers opened fire at big Bowmen unit and destroyed some of them (5 maybe 6 I think).
Combat: As expected Chariots were quickly destroyed and HE reformed. It didn't look good though as they hardly moved forward while lost 2 units and an Archmage and their western flank was confused.
TK Turn 2
TK do not move much, they don't have to
Shooting & Magic starts to kill Elves
Charges: Tomb Scorpion tried to charge repeater with a funny move around Swordmasters but rolled too low for a charge move.
Movement: Archers and Chariots on the west shifted slightly to adjust their positions in order to be in range fr shooting.
Magic & Shooting: During magic phase catapults opened fire at Repeaters destroying one and wounding the other. The proceeded to soften up Spearelves together with Bowmen. Magic missiles hit the Knights killing a few as well. It does not look good for Elves at all. On the west bow fire kills 3 White Lions.
HE Turn 2
HE try to get to combat to earn some victory points
Movement: Swordmasters defending Repeaters could not charge as Archers blocked their way. So they shifted their position to prevent charge move of Scorpion next turn. Archers wheeled to be able to shoot at Scorpion. Spearelves, Knights and Dragon Princes hurried forward. White Lions, being too far away from the enemy turned around and moved back towards their own lines to help against Scorpion. Great Eagle moved forward towards the Catapult on the horizon.
Shooting: Repeater and Archers opened fire but inflicted only a single wound.
TK Turn 3
Another deadly magic & shooting phase of TK
Elves keep dying
Charges: One Scorpion charges the Archers while the other attacks remaining Repeater.
Movement: Scorpion and Ushabti form to protect their King while Bowmen on the east form into a single line so that any charging elves would be in the front and be able to kill champion only.
Magic & Shooting: Barrage continues. Bowmen and Chariots inflict 2 wounds on the Eagle. Spearelves and Knights die due to incoming fire. Tomb King casts his magic missile with Irresistible Force ... rolls 4 on miscast table ... but stays in the game. Ah well. He wounds his BSB in the process but both characters were healed later on. Only single Knight remains alive.
Combat: Archers lose combat as expected but do not pass break test despite being steadfast. Not good, as they were supposed to hold for Swordmasters to counter-charge. Second Scorpion kills Repeater and Swordmasters fail their panic test and flee away. Damn! How many 8Ld test can I fail in this game?
HE Turn 3
HE obviously lost the battle but keep trying to decrease the margin of defeat
Just a few HE remained
Charges: BSB charges alone into Bowmen. The Prince wants to charge Scorpion to kill it and overrun into Bowmen and squishy TK characters but the charge range is long and he fails to get a proper charge roll. On the other hand, Great Eagle, needed double 6 to reach catapult and makes it.
Movement: Dragon Princes move around the woods with lone Silver Helm hiding behind them. White Lions close towards Scorpions and Spearelves move around to trap them. Swordmasters rally.
Combat: BSB challenges the champion and kills it. Combat resolution crumbles a few more Skeletons, opening the line of sight for Ushabti to DP and for TK to lone survivor to snipe him out in magic phasa. Simply great! Great Eagle kills one Skeleton but due to BSB proximity it is not enough to destroy the catapult.
TK Turn 4
TK use the opportunity to earn some more victory points
Charges: Scorpion charges BSB fighting with Skeletons. Ushabti attack Dragon Princes (with a help from Incantation).
Movement: Scorpions move one next to other so that White Lions could attack only one at a time. Big Bowmen unit reforms into a square.
Magic & Shooting: Lone Silver Helm is killed by magic missile. Just a note: whole game I focused on dispelling Casket, always making sure I have at least 3 dice left to do it. Without a mage, however, I had little chance to dispel anything else. I cannot recall the source of panic test but Spearelves failed it again despite some re-roll. What is more, having lost more than 75% of their numbers, they could only rally on double 1. And they didn't.
Combat: Scorpion fails to wound BSB who kills a few Skeletons and wins combat. Dragon Princes kill one Ushabti, lose 3 of their own but keep fighting. Great eagle kills one Skeleton (the catapult was healed) and two remaining inflict the last wound on the noble bird.
HE Turn 4
The game is over
Charges: HE Prince charges Scorpion as Bowmen with characters are too far away (and would issue a challenge with their champion had he charged no doubt). White Lions charge the Scorpion.
Combat: With no other movement combats were resolved. Dragon Princes were destroyed as expected, White Lions simply could not wound the Scorpion, lost combat and of course failed their stubborn test. Prince and BSB killed their opponents. With no time to play another round the game was over. Crushing victory to Tomb Kings!
Comments
Again my mistakes during deployment cost me a battle as my opponent was a veteran tournament player and he didn't miss opportunities. From turn 1 it was a game to minimize the range by which I would be defeated and I had no doubt about it. Failing panic tests simply added to my frustration and I could save some disgrace, earn me some points for Scorpions and save these I lost when Spearelves and Chariot fled never to rally and Swordmasters being there when I needed them the most. I left them behind to protect Repeaters but they could not even avenge them. So what I would do differently?
1. Deploy Archers and softer units 9" away from the front edge of the deployment zone so he could not shoot at me with or without incantations (I am not talking about catapults of course)
2. Deploy Spearelves in the centre and Silver Helms closer to the middle of my battle line with characters on the left flank of the unit so that I could have that range from BSB and General for initial panic tests if they occurred at all.
3. Make sure my Archmage cannot be charged first turn. That was very serous mistake and I feel very stupid.
4. I was even considering giving up 1st turn but I am not sure if I could really stop 2 catapult shots in the magic phase. I didn't have the first turn anyway.
5. I really need to anticipate such situations where I can open the line of sight to my units. I should have not challenged the champion, simply kill him. Instead of killing 5 models in total I would have destroyed 3 and that would be enough to block the line of sight. On the other hand with incantations Ushabti would move around the woods anyway (as this is what they did, so that they didn't have to pass Dangerous Terrain test)..
I wish I played better this time, especially against experienced opponent who seemed to be very focused on the game, not talking much. He carefully considered each action and that is why we played only 4 turns. That probably saved my characters who in Turn 5 would be in the open. He deserved his win. I really hope that one day while playing better opponent I would not make silly mistakes and if I lose I would be defeated only because somebody had a better plan, not by exploiting my mistakes. I also hope you enjoyed the reading despite my poor performance this round
Time for battle 4 where I faced Tomb Kings. Another army I do not know very well as I have played against them only once so far. My army list for those who read my reports separately
Prince - Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Pigeon Pendant
Archmage - Dispel Scroll (Life)
BSB - Heavy Armour, Barded Steed, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light, Great Weapon
30 Spearelves, Full Command, Gleaming Pendant
12 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
12 Archers, Light Armour, Standard
12 Swordmasters (Archmage)
10 White Lion, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame
5 Dragon Princes
1 Tiranoc Chariot
8 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician (Prince, BSB)
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
1 Great Eagle
Opponent and pre-battle thoughts
First my opponent army list (unfortunately I do not remember all the details )
Tomb King with Wizarding Hat (obtained lore of Light and got Burning Gaze and Banishment)
BSB with Standard of the Sands
High Liche Priest - probably Collar of Shepesh and Hieratic Jar
Liche Priest - Dispel Scroll
Liche Priest - Casket of Souls
24 Skeleton Bowmen
10 Skeleton Bowmen
10 Skeleton Bowmen
3 Chariots
3 Chariots
1 x Tomb Swarm
3 x Tomb Scorpions
6 Ushabti
2 x Screaming Skull Catapult
I remembered that Incantations are quite relentless and that I need to assume some of them will go through anyway. With Tomb King as a wizard it would be even more difficult. I didn't fear his chariots that much and I knew I need to get to his lines as soon as possible, as 4 catapult shots per turn is not something I was happy to face. His bowmen had inferior range so I hoped I could thin them down a little with my own archers and repeaters, before his catapults would destroy my war machines.
Deployment
Red bulls eyes indicate where two Scorpions are going to gig out
Armies arrayed for battle. Characters not yet deployed
As I said I wanted to play a little shooting duel but at the same time race across the table (the ruins were impassible terrain) to get to enemy lines. White Lions, Chariot and Eagle were to move forward full speed as well to provide target saturation (with eagle hunting down the catapult). With Spearelves and the Knights pressing forward against big bowmen unit, which I intended to thin down with shooting, I hoped to destroy them and get to the other catapult and Casket. If Ushabti, Tomb Scorpion or Chariots wanted to intervene I would happily charge any one of them with my Knights and use the opening on the eastern flank to move my Dragon Princes to the rear of the enemy lines. Well, so much for the plan and as always my opponent wins first turn.
All characters, with an exception of Casket, joined big Bowmen unit. On HE part Prince and BSB joined the Knights as usual and Archmage joined Spearelves.
TK Turn 1
Bold move by TK pays off more than their commander hoped for.
Situation after combat phase
Movement: Since incatations can make units move and shoot during magic phase I might not be always correct as to when exactly particular move or shooting occurred. I hope it will not be too confusing. If in doubt simply ask Chariots used their vanguard move, while archers shifted forward slightly to get into range.
Magic & Shooting: Catapults started their crazy barrage but despite incantations they wounded Repeater only once. Big Bowmen unit fired two times at the Archers and wiped them out. That panicked nearby White Lions who run through the Chariot and panicked it too. Just great. The incantation which allowed eastern chariots to charge was not dispelled as I wanted to save dice for magic missiles. Chariots got a good roll for charge range and stormed in.
Combat: All available attacks went against Archmage and since two chariots touched his base there were quite a few of them. First 6 attacks from chariots (4 horses and 2 drivers) ... 3 hit ... two wound. Not good. Then 2 attacks from warriors. With S4 due to spears. 2 hit and 1 wound. Archmage is dead. Ouch! Simply fantastic! Before I even moved I lost my Archmage against relentless magic phase and my flank collapsed due to panic.
HE Turn 1
HE try to consolidate their lines
Charges: Since the power of the Standard of the Sands was invoked, HE could not march. The Knights decided to charge Chariots just to make sure they are destroyed.
Movement: White Lions rallied but the Chariot didn't and run out of the table. Great Eagle used its 10" movement to withdraw and stay out of range of Skeleton Bowmen. Dragon Princes moved 8" forward.
Shooting: Repeaters and Archers opened fire at big Bowmen unit and destroyed some of them (5 maybe 6 I think).
Combat: As expected Chariots were quickly destroyed and HE reformed. It didn't look good though as they hardly moved forward while lost 2 units and an Archmage and their western flank was confused.
TK Turn 2
TK do not move much, they don't have to
Shooting & Magic starts to kill Elves
Charges: Tomb Scorpion tried to charge repeater with a funny move around Swordmasters but rolled too low for a charge move.
Movement: Archers and Chariots on the west shifted slightly to adjust their positions in order to be in range fr shooting.
Magic & Shooting: During magic phase catapults opened fire at Repeaters destroying one and wounding the other. The proceeded to soften up Spearelves together with Bowmen. Magic missiles hit the Knights killing a few as well. It does not look good for Elves at all. On the west bow fire kills 3 White Lions.
HE Turn 2
HE try to get to combat to earn some victory points
Movement: Swordmasters defending Repeaters could not charge as Archers blocked their way. So they shifted their position to prevent charge move of Scorpion next turn. Archers wheeled to be able to shoot at Scorpion. Spearelves, Knights and Dragon Princes hurried forward. White Lions, being too far away from the enemy turned around and moved back towards their own lines to help against Scorpion. Great Eagle moved forward towards the Catapult on the horizon.
Shooting: Repeater and Archers opened fire but inflicted only a single wound.
TK Turn 3
Another deadly magic & shooting phase of TK
Elves keep dying
Charges: One Scorpion charges the Archers while the other attacks remaining Repeater.
Movement: Scorpion and Ushabti form to protect their King while Bowmen on the east form into a single line so that any charging elves would be in the front and be able to kill champion only.
Magic & Shooting: Barrage continues. Bowmen and Chariots inflict 2 wounds on the Eagle. Spearelves and Knights die due to incoming fire. Tomb King casts his magic missile with Irresistible Force ... rolls 4 on miscast table ... but stays in the game. Ah well. He wounds his BSB in the process but both characters were healed later on. Only single Knight remains alive.
Combat: Archers lose combat as expected but do not pass break test despite being steadfast. Not good, as they were supposed to hold for Swordmasters to counter-charge. Second Scorpion kills Repeater and Swordmasters fail their panic test and flee away. Damn! How many 8Ld test can I fail in this game?
HE Turn 3
HE obviously lost the battle but keep trying to decrease the margin of defeat
Just a few HE remained
Charges: BSB charges alone into Bowmen. The Prince wants to charge Scorpion to kill it and overrun into Bowmen and squishy TK characters but the charge range is long and he fails to get a proper charge roll. On the other hand, Great Eagle, needed double 6 to reach catapult and makes it.
Movement: Dragon Princes move around the woods with lone Silver Helm hiding behind them. White Lions close towards Scorpions and Spearelves move around to trap them. Swordmasters rally.
Combat: BSB challenges the champion and kills it. Combat resolution crumbles a few more Skeletons, opening the line of sight for Ushabti to DP and for TK to lone survivor to snipe him out in magic phasa. Simply great! Great Eagle kills one Skeleton but due to BSB proximity it is not enough to destroy the catapult.
TK Turn 4
TK use the opportunity to earn some more victory points
Charges: Scorpion charges BSB fighting with Skeletons. Ushabti attack Dragon Princes (with a help from Incantation).
Movement: Scorpions move one next to other so that White Lions could attack only one at a time. Big Bowmen unit reforms into a square.
Magic & Shooting: Lone Silver Helm is killed by magic missile. Just a note: whole game I focused on dispelling Casket, always making sure I have at least 3 dice left to do it. Without a mage, however, I had little chance to dispel anything else. I cannot recall the source of panic test but Spearelves failed it again despite some re-roll. What is more, having lost more than 75% of their numbers, they could only rally on double 1. And they didn't.
Combat: Scorpion fails to wound BSB who kills a few Skeletons and wins combat. Dragon Princes kill one Ushabti, lose 3 of their own but keep fighting. Great eagle kills one Skeleton (the catapult was healed) and two remaining inflict the last wound on the noble bird.
HE Turn 4
The game is over
Charges: HE Prince charges Scorpion as Bowmen with characters are too far away (and would issue a challenge with their champion had he charged no doubt). White Lions charge the Scorpion.
Combat: With no other movement combats were resolved. Dragon Princes were destroyed as expected, White Lions simply could not wound the Scorpion, lost combat and of course failed their stubborn test. Prince and BSB killed their opponents. With no time to play another round the game was over. Crushing victory to Tomb Kings!
Comments
Again my mistakes during deployment cost me a battle as my opponent was a veteran tournament player and he didn't miss opportunities. From turn 1 it was a game to minimize the range by which I would be defeated and I had no doubt about it. Failing panic tests simply added to my frustration and I could save some disgrace, earn me some points for Scorpions and save these I lost when Spearelves and Chariot fled never to rally and Swordmasters being there when I needed them the most. I left them behind to protect Repeaters but they could not even avenge them. So what I would do differently?
1. Deploy Archers and softer units 9" away from the front edge of the deployment zone so he could not shoot at me with or without incantations (I am not talking about catapults of course)
2. Deploy Spearelves in the centre and Silver Helms closer to the middle of my battle line with characters on the left flank of the unit so that I could have that range from BSB and General for initial panic tests if they occurred at all.
3. Make sure my Archmage cannot be charged first turn. That was very serous mistake and I feel very stupid.
4. I was even considering giving up 1st turn but I am not sure if I could really stop 2 catapult shots in the magic phase. I didn't have the first turn anyway.
5. I really need to anticipate such situations where I can open the line of sight to my units. I should have not challenged the champion, simply kill him. Instead of killing 5 models in total I would have destroyed 3 and that would be enough to block the line of sight. On the other hand with incantations Ushabti would move around the woods anyway (as this is what they did, so that they didn't have to pass Dangerous Terrain test)..
I wish I played better this time, especially against experienced opponent who seemed to be very focused on the game, not talking much. He carefully considered each action and that is why we played only 4 turns. That probably saved my characters who in Turn 5 would be in the open. He deserved his win. I really hope that one day while playing better opponent I would not make silly mistakes and if I lose I would be defeated only because somebody had a better plan, not by exploiting my mistakes. I also hope you enjoyed the reading despite my poor performance this round
Twitter @SwordOfHoeth
High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
Just so you know for next time, the chariots can't charge in his first turn, neither with magic incantations so your AM shouldn't have die changing the game result probably .
Btw, great bat. reports, thank you very much for sharing them with us!
Btw, great bat. reports, thank you very much for sharing them with us!
- Swordmaster of Hoeth
- Southern Sentinel
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
Seriously? Damn! Is it by the Rulebook or FAQ?
Twitter @SwordOfHoeth
High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
Nice report again, shame about the defeat very bad luck with your break tests reminds of a friend of mine whos EMpire army is known for loosing afew units 1st turn from panic tests.
Cheers for the report and hopefully you will hvae betterluck in your next game.
Cheers for the report and hopefully you will hvae betterluck in your next game.
[color=#0040FF]Andy[/color]
-
- Green Istari
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
Rulebook. Under the Vanguard rule.Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Seriously? Damn! Is it by the Rulebook or FAQ?
Sounds like a combination of bad luck and not playing TK a lot before to me. I've never played them in hundreds of games of Warhammer. Why are they held to be a weak army?
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
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http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001
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Cavalry Prince Reloaded
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- Swordmaster of Hoeth
- Southern Sentinel
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
That is really bad. I checked the Vanguard rule again. During the battle I asked him specifically if he is allowed to do so having first turn. Not only he did Vanguard move after we rolled for first turn but also assured me that TK are an exception and are allowed to charge via Incantation. I really don't like when somebody cheates me like that. Don't understand such people. He was a better player anyway. Ah well, I guess that and some other examples will teach me to be less trustworthy and try to better remember the rules.
Twitter @SwordOfHoeth
High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
Not cool.
Never mind mate - best thing to do (as someone recently reminded me), is to just follow your gut! I realise, though, that it can be hard to argue where someone assures you that their rules allow them to do a particular thing. I wouldn't normally question them either.
Definitely a bit of bad luck in there, too! Just take what lessons you can on the game play. Playing any army for the first time can always be a bit hit and miss.
Never mind mate - best thing to do (as someone recently reminded me), is to just follow your gut! I realise, though, that it can be hard to argue where someone assures you that their rules allow them to do a particular thing. I wouldn't normally question them either.
Definitely a bit of bad luck in there, too! Just take what lessons you can on the game play. Playing any army for the first time can always be a bit hit and miss.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
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- Green Istari
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
It's probably not a lot of comfort but I shall be very careful with my AM againt TK after reading this!
Thank you!
Thank you!
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001
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Cavalry Prince Reloaded
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- Curu Olannon
- Vindicated Strategist
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
Thanks again for a wonderful report! Sorry about your loss, but in my opinion it was not deserved...
I think you deployed perfectly and played very well. There are very few things I would've done differently. Being cheated is just retarded on your opponent's part and you really can't help it. Being unlucky on top of it... Sad story.
The few comments I have: I believe your SHelms should've left the chariots alone. You needed to reach his lines asap and as you duly pointed out they hardly moved at all because of the combat + reform compared to a march move. I also think I'd have given up on your repeaters and try to send the white lions and swordmasters through the middle to provide target saturation. It's hard to say though, it's probably not a big mistake to leave them behind and take care of the scorps. Downside is, your opponent can focus everything on your cavalry and at beast your elite infantry kill 2 scorpions.
I think you deployed and played very well. Placing the archmage in Spears was brilliant as any other unit could've been obliterated. Between cheating and poor dice it's just sad that you lost.
Regards,
Olannon
I think you deployed perfectly and played very well. There are very few things I would've done differently. Being cheated is just retarded on your opponent's part and you really can't help it. Being unlucky on top of it... Sad story.
The few comments I have: I believe your SHelms should've left the chariots alone. You needed to reach his lines asap and as you duly pointed out they hardly moved at all because of the combat + reform compared to a march move. I also think I'd have given up on your repeaters and try to send the white lions and swordmasters through the middle to provide target saturation. It's hard to say though, it's probably not a big mistake to leave them behind and take care of the scorps. Downside is, your opponent can focus everything on your cavalry and at beast your elite infantry kill 2 scorpions.
I think you deployed and played very well. Placing the archmage in Spears was brilliant as any other unit could've been obliterated. Between cheating and poor dice it's just sad that you lost.
Regards,
Olannon
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).
Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.
Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:
:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.
Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:
:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
- Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
I guess it seems it is naive to believe your opponent. Maybe I will just be more skeptical during tournaments onlySeredain wrote:Never mind mate - best thing to do (as someone recently reminded me), is to just follow your gut! I realise, though, that it can be hard to argue where someone assures you that their rules allow them to do a particular thing. I wouldn't normally question them either.
Well, it happens sometimes I drew my conclusions and since no body has yet made a comment about them it might mean the lesson is learnedSeredain wrote:Definitely a bit of bad luck in there, too! Just take what lessons you can on the game play. Playing any army for the first time can always be a bit hit and miss.
You welcome! Yes, it is a comfort because I want other HE players to learn from my mistakes We will see what other nasty surprises new book is going to offer. But with information revealed already, about more creatures digging out from the sand you will definitely do some good by being watchful for such nasty tricks.SpellArcher wrote:It's probably not a lot of comfort but I shall be very careful with my AM againt TK after reading this!
Thank you!
I was a little unlucky but I could have prevented some of it by better deployment. My opponent really knew what he is doing so he additionally capitalized on my bad luck.Curu Olannon wrote:Thanks again for a wonderful report! Sorry about your loss, but in my opinion it was not deserved...
Yes, it does not help when you find out you were cheated but hell, that is not my problem. We should better focus on what could have been done better on my part as this is something I can do next timeCuru Olannon wrote:I think you deployed perfectly and played very well. There are very few things I would've done differently. Being cheated is just retarded on your opponent's part and you really can't help it. Being unlucky on top of it... Sad story.
I could not march move. That is the point! He used the power of his Standard of the Sand. It also has this effect that all Ld tests are at -1 penalty. That helped my chariot to flee off the table, as I rolled 8 for rally test. Very useful item and well used.Curu Olannon wrote:The few comments I have: I believe your SHelms should've left the chariots alone. You needed to reach his lines asap and as you duly pointed out they hardly moved at all because of the combat + reform compared to a march move.
Initially I planned to leave only Swordmasters behind but after WL panicked I decided to move them back as they had a better chance to do something in my deployment zone. Combination of bad positioning (Archers blocking Swordmasters charge, not being able to charge themselves to clear the path) and failed panic test meant I failed at protecting Repeaters and then avenging them. All that really helped my opponent to focus on my cavalry. It also shows how important first turn can be against shooty army. I am really considering taking Skeinsilver in my army.Curu Olannon wrote:I also think I'd have given up on your repeaters and try to send the white lions and swordmasters through the middle to provide target saturation. It's hard to say though, it's probably not a big mistake to leave them behind and take care of the scorps. Downside is, your opponent can focus everything on your cavalry and at beast your elite infantry kill 2 scorpions.
I don't want to blame dice and cheating for losing a game. It definitely didn't help but I wonder what could have been done better to at least save some more points. In the end I lost 2-18 and every 100 points changed that score. Having Archmage alive with Throne and Flesh to Stone spells on would help me shrugg off some damage. That is actually a very interesting topic on its own. How do you recover and go back to the game after early loss of your powerful characters? It happened to me before, as you rememberCuru Olannon wrote:I think you deployed and played very well. Placing the archmage in Spears was brilliant as any other unit could've been obliterated. Between cheating and poor dice it's just sad that you lost.
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
I have just checked through the TK FAQ and no mention of being able to charge differently from any other Vanguard unit anywhere.
[color=#0040FF]Andy[/color]
Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
The Incantation of moving around does allow a charge much in the same way that Danse from the VC does. It may override the BRB saying Vanguarding units can't charge as it's not "really" a charge. 8 year old army books FTL.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34299]My army[/url]
Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
I know that with my VC and other players who use VC do not count them as different from other Vanguard units but as others have said an FAQ for this is needed ASAP.
[color=#0040FF]Andy[/color]
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
I disagree Before I make my point let me quote:CrazyCarl wrote:The Incantation of moving around does allow a charge much in the same way that Danse from the VC does. It may override the BRB saying Vanguarding units can't charge as it's not "really" a charge. 8 year old army books FTL.
Incantation
Van HelsThe unit can charge an enemy and the same rules apply as for normal charge. A unit charged by means of this incantation can react to the charge as normal and must take the appropriate Psychology tests.
RulebookIf the target is not in close combat, it can immediately make a move up to 8" in the same way as a normal move made in the Movement phase - it can charge (up to 8"), ...
In both cases of a movement spell the description literally calls it a charge. Rulebook forbids a charge in the first turn. So the army book does not over-rule the rulebook as there is no contradiction.Units that have made a Vanguard move cannot declare a charge in the first turn if their army goes first.
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
Tomb Kings, and a bowline no less! A hard match-up for any elf army!
Some thoughts:
I was going to ask why you deployed your swordmasters in the rear, but you answered it later. I think putting them front and center is important, as even if they get annihilated by shooting, it takes some heat off the other units! With such a small army, its hard to deploy 'in depth' because it instantly decides your opponents shooting for him - he'll shoot whatever is the clearest threat first. If everything is on a line however, he's got choices to make, including bad ones!
I wondered for a minute how he was shooting you turn 1 so effectively with his 24 inch archers... then I realized he was in 2 ranks and using the Arrows of the Asp rule.
The chariot thing was indeed fishy, and it had me rifling through my books the moment I saw it. There's nothing anywhere that says that their incantations go against the Vanguard rule. I'd like to think he didn't cheat, but as you say, he's an experienced tournament goer... its possible he's never been questioned on it, or he really believes he's right, but... I doubt it. Ah well, these things happen sometimes.
In any case, its why I always try to shoe-horn the Foliarth's Robe/ToS onto my Archmage - I need my Life Archmage in one of my combat blocks, but he's so essential to the army, especially in the early turns... losing him rarely costs me the game on its own, but its certainly a large step in that direction!
I actually might not have put my archers back 9", as you say in your conclusions. It seems like good logic to keep them safe, but the truth of it is that with that kind of missile fire, he can remove most High Elf units, one each turn, if he so chooses! I think I'd have done just what you did, and use them as bait to help the infantry move unmolested - the Standard of the Sands really troubled your advance though! Great item.
On turn 2, how could his Tomb Scorpions charge your RBT through your Swordmasters without the use of flight? I know he failed, but from your photos, that just looks downright weird.
Well, I'm sure it was a bitter defeat made even worse by the idea he played it incorrectly... if he indeed knew what he was doing, its not as all as if he needed too, because he played a very solid game despite it. The current TK are really not nearly as weak as people on the 'net make them out to be!
Some thoughts:
I was going to ask why you deployed your swordmasters in the rear, but you answered it later. I think putting them front and center is important, as even if they get annihilated by shooting, it takes some heat off the other units! With such a small army, its hard to deploy 'in depth' because it instantly decides your opponents shooting for him - he'll shoot whatever is the clearest threat first. If everything is on a line however, he's got choices to make, including bad ones!
I wondered for a minute how he was shooting you turn 1 so effectively with his 24 inch archers... then I realized he was in 2 ranks and using the Arrows of the Asp rule.
The chariot thing was indeed fishy, and it had me rifling through my books the moment I saw it. There's nothing anywhere that says that their incantations go against the Vanguard rule. I'd like to think he didn't cheat, but as you say, he's an experienced tournament goer... its possible he's never been questioned on it, or he really believes he's right, but... I doubt it. Ah well, these things happen sometimes.
In any case, its why I always try to shoe-horn the Foliarth's Robe/ToS onto my Archmage - I need my Life Archmage in one of my combat blocks, but he's so essential to the army, especially in the early turns... losing him rarely costs me the game on its own, but its certainly a large step in that direction!
I actually might not have put my archers back 9", as you say in your conclusions. It seems like good logic to keep them safe, but the truth of it is that with that kind of missile fire, he can remove most High Elf units, one each turn, if he so chooses! I think I'd have done just what you did, and use them as bait to help the infantry move unmolested - the Standard of the Sands really troubled your advance though! Great item.
On turn 2, how could his Tomb Scorpions charge your RBT through your Swordmasters without the use of flight? I know he failed, but from your photos, that just looks downright weird.
Well, I'm sure it was a bitter defeat made even worse by the idea he played it incorrectly... if he indeed knew what he was doing, its not as all as if he needed too, because he played a very solid game despite it. The current TK are really not nearly as weak as people on the 'net make them out to be!
Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
As unpleasant as it is, the issue whether the TK chariots can charge on turn 1 after they have made a vanguard move via magic has to be FAQ-ed. If it is not in the FAQ, it would be fair that the TK player would discuss it with you before the game to reach an agreement. Otherwise you can invoke the most important rule and roll it off...
TBH, I think that he is allowed to charge by using magic, so as unpleasant as it may be I do not think that he cheated
TBH, I think that he is allowed to charge by using magic, so as unpleasant as it may be I do not think that he cheated
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
"Can you please show me where it says TK disregard vanguard 1st turn charge restriction?" Would have changed the game quite a bit.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
personally I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. The TK player believed he was right. Not many players are familiar with his army, so if he claims it is a special rule they believe him. This in turn enforces his belief that he is right (he has always played it this way...).Marinero wrote:As unpleasant as it is, the issue whether the TK chariots can charge on turn 1 after they have made a vanguard move via magic has to be FAQ-ed. If it is not in the FAQ, it would be fair that the TK player would discuss it with you before the game to reach an agreement. Otherwise you can invoke the most important rule and roll it off...
TBH, I think that he is allowed to charge by using magic, so as unpleasant as it may be I do not think that he cheated
I believe it may have cost you the game, altough he was a good player by the sound of it. If his chariots had been out in the open turn 1 then you would have had a great chance to get the initiative. Get a combo charge on the chariot, deny them their impact hits, wipe them out and be in position for turn 2 charges. The loss of your archmage added to this of course.
Other than that, you were also a bit unlucky with your LD tests, which of course doesn't help if you already have to get back from a bad position. Just remeber, for every game where you fail each and every test, there is one where you pass even the most unlikely ones and get that double 1 when you need it most...
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Check out my plog
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Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
But it is a nice thing to have a challenge too What I also liked about this game is that I immediately started to formulate the plan based on what I know about TK and I did believe we can have a close game~Milliardo~ wrote:Tomb Kings, and a bowline no less! A hard match-up for any elf army!
That is always a tough call. You simply have to make a decision, to abandon Repeaters or to try and protect them somehow. I decided that leaving Swordmasters and killing 2 Tomb Scorpions with them was worthy exchange. If I simply rushed towards his lines with everything I have his Scorpions might still try to stall my advance. In any case creatures who can dig out in the middle of the game among your ranks are quite annoying~Milliardo~ wrote:I was going to ask why you deployed your swordmasters in the rear, but you answered it later. I think putting them front and center is important, as even if they get annihilated by shooting, it takes some heat off the other units! With such a small army, its hard to deploy 'in depth' because it instantly decides your opponents shooting for him - he'll shoot whatever is the clearest threat first. If everything is on a line however, he's got choices to make, including bad ones!
The fact they always hit on 5+ makes them very reliable and with Incantations there is no doubt as is it hoing to be worthy moving them forward or not I am curious if they are going to keep that rule in new Tk book.~Milliardo~ wrote:I wondered for a minute how he was shooting you turn 1 so effectively with his 24 inch archers... then I realized he was in 2 ranks and using the Arrows of the Asp rule.
I am ok with it now. It is definitely not decided either way properly. The funny thing is that I asked the question on other forum about it and the guy who was chief referee answered that they could not do that. It does not make one interpretation stronger than the other but maybe it was worthy to ask referees for their opinion I just hope it will be addressed in new book too.~Milliardo~ wrote:The chariot thing was indeed fishy, and it had me rifling through my books the moment I saw it. There's nothing anywhere that says that their incantations go against the Vanguard rule. I'd like to think he didn't cheat, but as you say, he's an experienced tournament goer... its possible he's never been questioned on it, or he really believes he's right, but... I doubt it. Ah well, these things happen sometimes.
Yes, I am definitely checking our magic toys now and I am going to find points for the Robe~Milliardo~ wrote:In any case, its why I always try to shoe-horn the Foliarth's Robe/ToS onto my Archmage - I need my Life Archmage in one of my combat blocks, but he's so essential to the army, especially in the early turns... losing him rarely costs me the game on its own, but its certainly a large step in that direction!
Hm, maybe that is not a good idea as I first thought. If I had a first turn I would not shoot either. He didn't shoot at my other units. Maybe then just 5" behind so he has to lose Invocations for moving forward rather than shooting. Yes, I think that is a better option.~Milliardo~ wrote:I actually might not have put my archers back 9", as you say in your conclusions. It seems like good logic to keep them safe, but the truth of it is that with that kind of missile fire, he can remove most High Elf units, one each turn, if he so chooses! I think I'd have done just what you did, and use them as bait to help the infantry move unmolested - the Standard of the Sands really troubled your advance though! Great item.
Sorry if my diagram confuses you. Here is what he could do. He saw Repeater so he could declare a charge. After digging out he faced south. Now he could complete charge move by moving south past Swordmasters and then wheel once, as he is perfectly allowed to do. Since the distance is measured on the straight line, he was close enough to make it happen. But this time he rolled 1 and 3 for charge distance and that was not enough. But it was perfectly legal and that is something worth considering when you want to make a charge around the enemy.~Milliardo~ wrote:On turn 2, how could his Tomb Scorpions charge your RBT through your Swordmasters without the use of flight? I know he failed, but from your photos, that just looks downright weird.
As I said I am ok with it now. He was a more experienced player and played a very good game, knowing what he wants to do all the time. His army though is based on shooting and magic and is very soft while in combat so I guess something like Bretonnia would have a much better chance at defeating him because he would no be able to kill his knights quickly enough. But no, I don't think TK army is weak. And reading news about their new troops and mosnters makes me think they will be quite popular soon~Milliardo~ wrote:Well, I'm sure it was a bitter defeat made even worse by the idea he played it incorrectly... if he indeed knew what he was doing, its not as all as if he needed too, because he played a very solid game despite it. The current TK are really not nearly as weak as people on the 'net make them out to be!
I asked him about the rule and accepted that he knows what he can do. If I knew it was not FAQ-ued I would ask him for some rationale behind that. As I said I am ok with it now, I have my own opinion after reading the rules but I agree it is debatable. So I am sorry if I sounded pissed off. It was a questionable issue and I would love to see how our battle would turn out without him killing my mage. I guess I can check it out myself knowing what was the situation In any case I will not hold any grudges, will give myself the benefit of a doubt as to his intentions and next time I will be more skeptical and ask my opponent for explanation.Marinero wrote:As unpleasant as it is, the issue whether the TK chariots can charge on turn 1 after they have made a vanguard move via magic has to be FAQ-ed. If it is not in the FAQ, it would be fair that the TK player would discuss it with you before the game to reach an agreement. Otherwise you can invoke the most important rule and roll it off...
TBH, I think that he is allowed to charge by using magic, so as unpleasant as it may be I do not think that he cheated
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Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
How about trying the Skeinsliver just to see if it changes the way your games go?
Have to agree. The default is that you can't charge. I don't see at all how the charge being magical or otherwise affects things.Lord Anathir wrote:"Can you please show me where it says TK disregard vanguard 1st turn charge restriction?" Would have changed the game quite a bit.
Agreed. He should be a bit more self-monitoring however. I'd be mortified If I found I'd been getting wins because I didn't know my own army's rules properly.rdghuizing wrote:personally I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. The TK player believed he was right. Not many players are familiar with his army, so if he claims it is a special rule they believe him. This in turn enforces his belief that he is right (he has always played it this way...).
Thank you! I've learned a lot of things from other posters on this site and I feel that we have a definite common purpose as High Elves here.Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:You welcome! Yes, it is a comfort because I want other HE players to learn from my mistakes
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
Thanks for posting the report mate, I just did my own with Battle chronicler and now I can really appreciate the time that goes into making them so once again thanks.
Onto the game, well you win some and you lose some I guess. That's a real shame about the ruling that was overlooked and things would have been mighty different had you still had the Archmage around. Either way when the tomb king is packing the wizard hat and the way the TK currently works it certainly makes for a potent phase that just draws all of your dispel dice out. They're a formidable opponent with 2 SSC and it will be interesting if the new rule book balances them out rather than overpowers them.
Looking forward to the last battle report!
Onto the game, well you win some and you lose some I guess. That's a real shame about the ruling that was overlooked and things would have been mighty different had you still had the Archmage around. Either way when the tomb king is packing the wizard hat and the way the TK currently works it certainly makes for a potent phase that just draws all of your dispel dice out. They're a formidable opponent with 2 SSC and it will be interesting if the new rule book balances them out rather than overpowers them.
Looking forward to the last battle report!
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 4/5
I did. The thing is, however, that I need to find 25 points somewhere. I could upgrade one Swordmaster to Bladelord and give it to him. That would be at the cost of decreasing the number of warriors to 12 again I think. Hard choices The funny thing is that if I had that item in my games against TK and Empire I would have the first turn, so it is really worth thinking aboutSpellArcher wrote:How about trying the Skeinsliver just to see if it changes the way your games go?
I simply hope new rules for Incantation will deal with it properly.SpellArcher wrote:Have to agree. The default is that you can't charge. I don't see at all how the charge being magical or otherwise affects things.Lord Anathir wrote:"Can you please show me where it says TK disregard vanguard 1st turn charge restriction?" Would have changed the game quite a bit.
Yes, it does take time although I do not feel it while moving around colorful squares and rectangles, recreating the battle in my mind But it is worth doing anyway. It is indeed a Battle Chronic after allJimmy wrote:Thanks for posting the report mate, I just did my own with Battle chronicler and now I can really appreciate the time that goes into making them so once again thanks.
One has to learn from different kind of lessons And yes, I wonder what kind of armies are going to emerge from the sand this time I would love to have an opportunity to play against new TK. I think it will be an enemy of its own kind and unique play style.Jimmy wrote:Onto the game, well you win some and you lose some I guess. That's a real shame about the ruling that was overlooked and things would have been mighty different had you still had the Archmage around. Either way when the tomb king is packing the wizard hat and the way the TK currently works it certainly makes for a potent phase that just draws all of your dispel dice out. They're a formidable opponent with 2 SSC and it will be interesting if the new rule book balances them out rather than overpowers them.
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?