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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:55 am 
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Good points. It was very much a new experience to play 1vs1vs1 - you are right that the least threatening army had perhaps the best chances of winning. I needed to take care of the Abomination early because of how powerful it is and this put me on the warpath against Skaven. They kept pushing so I kept fighting back - in the end I won that conflict but was in a bad position to win the game.

Meanwhile the Dwarfs didn't even have a cannon, so deliberately avoided being a threat early on. They just kept moving forward at a slow pace, getting there on turn 5. Their low unit count could have been their downfall - the Slayers were one good shooting round away from being destroyed, while the Gyrocopter could easily have been taken out by my Necrosphinx. That would bring them down to 2 scoring units and make them an unlikely contender. Again, the fact that I was so involved fighting the Skaven saved those units.

Still, I could have at least draw, had only the Necrosphinx made that 13" charge (1/216 chance of him not making it!). Losing the Warsphinx to Clanrats was unlucky as well. They did have spears but it was still just 12 WS3 S3 attacks and I had 3 more wounds on the beast...

All in all it was a great game. Arkhan is in real trouble now - both his attempts at securing a power source for Nagash have failed. Meanwhile the threat of Chaos grows stronger and the magical barrier in the north weakens. Throwing caution against the wind for the first time in centuries the Liche will now march to Khemri, to try and claim the Black Pyramid.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:28 am 
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As mentioned I also think that the dwarves were lucky they ended up on the far side of the battlefield and not in the skaven position in the middle. That would have made them more of an (easy) target early on. And in that instance I can imagine that one of the other two players indeed would have figured that taking out one or two units would have been enough to deal with them for a while.

Great game from the look of it. I think in multi-player games the game itself is more important then the balance or outcome.

Bring on the next one!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:02 pm 
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The Skaven behaviour was sometimes unexpected because it was the first time the two guys commanding them played on their own (they played on one of the teams in previous battles). Also, there was two of them :wink: They still did well, but Skaven can be tricky to play even for experienced players. They'll get to command High Elves next time ;)

The Dwarfs had this to say after the battle:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:12 pm 
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Is that a GW model?

:)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:56 am 
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Lol!

It must be said though that unexpected behaviour is sort of the default for skaven... ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:03 am 
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Its Avatars of War, I believe :wink:

While Arkhan schemes to conquer Khemri, the Skaven Council of Thirteen decided to intensify their actions in the Karak-Eight-Peak region. They send in Queek Headtaker with an order to tie up the enemy forces and bleed them dry...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:42 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Its Avatars of War, I believe

How about the rather brutal-looking unit in black? I thought at first glance the blimps were missiles of some sort!

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
They send in Queek Headtaker with an order to tie up the enemy forces and bleed them dry...

Saucy boy.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:49 pm 
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Those would be Mantic Hammerers, pretty awful models but they get the job done :)

We decided to do a pitched battle for a change, at 2400 points per side.

Skaven list:
Queek Headtaker
Grey Seer, Earthing Rod
BSB, Storm Banner
Assassin, Ironcurse Icon, Tail Weapon
Warlock, Level 2, Warp-energy Condenser
Warlock, Doomrocket
30 Queek's Stormvermin, command, Dwarfhide Banner + Warpfire Thrower
29 Clanrats, spears, shields, command + Poisoned Wind Mortar
30 Slaves
29 Slaves
2x3 Jezzails, champion
2x6 Gutter Runners, poison, slings
Hellpit Abomination
Warp Lightning Cannon

Dwarfs:
Runelord with Rune of Balance, Rune of Spellbreaking
BSB with Rune of Grungni

25ish Warriors, command
10 Quarellers
13 Thunderers
20 Slayers, command
21 Hammerers, command
10 Irondrakes, command, Trollhammer Torpedo
2 Cannons (runed up, one had flaming shots)
1 Catapult
2 Gyrocopters

Deployment:
Image

I got Warplightning, Warpgale, Deathfrenzy and 13th on my Seer, Warplightning and Cracks Call on the Warlock
The Runelord had Anvil bound spells per house rules.

The plan was to advance in an oblique fashion, with my left flank leading the assault. The shooters would hopefully eliminate the Gyrocopters and Artillery, while the Seer would try and weaken tough infantry units with his Dreaded 13th. It was the first time I took Queek's Stormvermin I think - they look good on paper with WS5 and S4(5 with their halberds), they also got Hatred thanks to their banner. They also have a big bulls-eye on them and the Ironcurse won't help them much against a Catapult. Storm Banner protect...

The Dwarfs got to go first.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:51 pm 
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Skaven list has some nice toys. Queek and his Stormvermin look a bit of a glass hammer, happily they have better Initiative than Dwarfs. These have plenty of bodies but no fighting Lord or Organ Guns.

So I wonder if it might have been worth coming from behind with the Gutter Runners. I have faith in Skaven shooting/magic to blast holes in the Dwarf units but I suspect the Abomination will get shot and then the Stormvermin lack support to their left. Maybe the whole line should wheel to the left?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:21 am 
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Looks like it will be a tough fight for the skaven. A lot depends on how often you get dreaded 13th through of course. But at the moment it looks a bit like a straight up, fair fight. Not a place you want to be in as skaven. And with dwarves going first, they've got an extra turn of shooting and positioning to prepare for you. Should be an interesting battle at least.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:19 am 
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Trying to fight Dwarfs in hand to hand usually ends up bad, but I was really counting on Queek and his crew.

Turn 1:

Dwarfs correct their positions on the right flank. The Runelord manages to cast a magic missile against the Gutter Runners, killing 4. Shooting is largely ineffective.

I move forward at full speed - the Abomination manages to advance 16"! The Storm Banner is still active, but I manage to cause a couple of wounds on a Gyrocopter.

Image

Turn 2:

The Storm Banner runs out and the Dwarfs are happy to stay put. The magic missile is successful again, this time killing my Warpfire Thrower. Shooting slays the Abomination (it did take 2 Cannons, as well as an Irondrake and a Quareller salvo).

I decide to stand still as well, waiting until the Dwarf line is weakened. I manage to cast 13th on the Hammerers, killing 16. The Seer cascades, though I manage to re-roll the miscast with my Earthing Rod. Some 2 ranks of Clanrats die, but its a sacrifice I was willing to make. Shooting destroys the Catapult and a Gyrocopter, as well as some Warriors.

Image

Turn 3:

The Dwarfs are still shellshocked after the last turn, but they more forward at full speed. Magic does nothing this time, while shooting destroys my cannon.

I counter the advancing Slayers and Hammerers with my Slaves, while the Stormvermin head for the Warriors and Irondrakes. Magic does little. Shooting wounds a cannon and puts some wounds on the Irondrakes.

Image

Things are looking quite good at this point. That Dreaded 13th really put pressure on the Dwarfs and I managed to get rid of the Catapult, which I found a major threat to the Stormvermin. On the right flank I was hoping to avoid combat for as long as possible - already I saw that the Slave units were just to small to hold the Slayers up!

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:46 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
I decide to stand still as well, waiting until the Dwarf line is weakened.

This is the thing, your list is pretty respectable at range RE.

RE.Lee wrote:
I manage to cast 13th on the Hammerers, killing 16. The Seer cascades, though I manage to re-roll the miscast with my Earthing Rod. Some 2 ranks of Clanrats die, but its a sacrifice I was willing to make.

This is classic, you've got the tools and bodies to pull it off.

RE.Lee wrote:
Things are looking quite good at this point. That Dreaded 13th really put pressure on the Dwarfs and I managed to get rid of the Catapult, which I found a major threat to the Stormvermin. On the right flank I was hoping to avoid combat for as long as possible - already I saw that the Slave units were just to small to hold the Slayers up!

I can't see the Slayers getting across the field fast enough to trouble the Stormvermin.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:37 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
I can't see the Slayers getting across the field fast enough to trouble the Stormvermin.


They can threaten the Seer however ;)

My ranged threat was indeed decent. While I dislike to go full SAD, I find that Skaven need support fire to accomplish anything. At least those damn Gyrocopters need to be destroyed!

Turn 4:

Slayers charge and wipe out a Slave unit. The Warriors and Hammerers charge another, but are luckily held. Drakes move to block my Stormvermin. Shooting and magic do nothing.

I charge the Irondrakes and slay them all, reforming to face the Warriors, who finish off my Slaves. I block the Slayers with my Warlock, as the Clanrats backpedal. Jezzails move into range but are unable to bring down the remaining Gyrocopter.

Image

Turn 5:

Warriors maneuver round my Stormvermin and unleash hell upon the poor Ratmen - between the Runelord's magic missile and his Fiery Ring of Thori he causes some 14 casualties. The Slayers kill the brave Warlock, while the Gyrocopter decimates and panics my Clanrats... Ouch!

I rally my Seer and reform the Stormvermin. They might be down to 1/3 of their number but they still have Queek, the BSB and an Assassin among them! Magic goes my way again, as I melt half the Warriors with the 13th. My good luck continues in the shooting phase and I destroy one of the cannons. Back in the game!

Image

Turn 6:

The Warriors, seeing no glory in death, evade my Stormvermin. The Slayers charge my Clanrats, but I flee. The Gyrocopter burns some more of my guys, but I couldn't care less.

I rally my Clanrats and decide to finish off the Gyrocopter with a Warplightning on 3 dice. Inevitably, I miscast and kill my Seer (it was his third, so he was riding his luck), losing some precious points. After we counted up the points it turned out to be a draw, which pretty much reflects the situation on the battlefield.

Image

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Last edited by RE.Lee on Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:43 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
They can threaten the Seer however

He died anyway!

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
I find that Skaven need support fire to accomplish anything.

Anytime I don't have useful support shooting I get twitchy.

RE.Lee wrote:
I block the Slayers with my Warlock

Were you tempted to bring six?

RE.Lee wrote:
Jezzails move into range but are unable to bring down the remaining Gyrocopter.

Can they move and fire?

Honestly, it was a great game and very competitive. More please!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:35 am 
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Taking a swarm of Warlocks to block enemy units sounds cheesy, though very tempting indeed :) I wouldn't need to sacrifice even this one had I taken 5-10 more Slaves to feed the Slayers - 30 just isn't enough against ranked infantry.

Any hand-held weapon can move and fire due to our house rules - this includes jezzails and even warpfire throwers! It makes the game much more dynamic I think.

Glad you liked the report! I'm flying to Abu Dhabi after Christmas, but the final showdown at 9 Daemons should take place sometime mid-January ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:36 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Taking a swarm of Warlocks to block enemy units sounds cheesy, though very tempting indeed I wouldn't need to sacrifice even this one had I taken 5-10 more Slaves to feed the Slayers - 30 just isn't enough against ranked infantry.

I've seen 40's a lot.

RE.Lee wrote:
Any hand-held weapon can move and fire due to our house rules - this includes jezzails and even warpfire throwers! It makes the game much more dynamic I think.

Good call for Jezzails, they need it. Even other weapons teams are a bit underwhelming by the rulebook, so this doesn't look unbalancing.

RE.Lee wrote:
Glad you liked the report! I'm flying to Abu Dhabi after Christmas, but the final showdown at 9 Daemons should take place sometime mid-January

It's all set up!

:)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:43 am 
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Yeah, we introduced the move-and-fire rules to help Empire handgunners initially, but they've worked well for all sorts of units.

I'm looking forward to fighting at 9 Daemons if only to get a chance to converty Eldyra and make her an objective for the Undead :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:24 am 
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Ok, since I can't wait for 9 Daemons, I've started working on the special characters involved.

Belannaer, my all-time favourite, goes first. I didn't want to go overboard, its hard to price unique items and abilities so I've decided to use mostly entries in existing books (though in an illegal fashion).

I've started with the Loremaster and added 2 levels of magic (for a standard 70 points). He'd get Loremaster of High Magic for free, replacing the 8 signature spells (which I think weakens him, if anything). The Staff of Cyeos would just be the book of Ashur (so 70 points) The Cloak of Stars would use the rules for Glittering Scales (so 25 points), while the Book of the Phoenix would only contain the Verse of Rebirth to keep things simple, bringing him back with D3 wounds within 12" of the site of his demise (I made this 35 points, as much as a healing potion, though its a bit stronger perhaps). Finally, the Blade of Bel-Korhadris would be a modest +1S (for free, as its basically a halberd, since he doesn't use a shield).

This puts him at 395 points. A solid mage with all High Magic spells and a +5 to cast/dispell. A decent fighter with 3 S5 attacks and some protection (though not a tank by any means).

Opinions?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:44 am 
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The thing about a High Mage on foot is that you usually want him in an elite infantry unit for three reasons. Firstly, the unit benefits from Shield of Saphery. Secondly, the spells are a bit short-ranged so you need to get reasonably close to the enemy. Thirdly the unit tends to be a lot more durable than an Archer bunker for example. The issue is survivability. -1 to be hit is helpful but with no Ward to start with, he's dependent on getting spells off to generate a decent one. Loremaster really helps because he's got all the Augments (Drain, Apotheosis, Hand, Walk) which he can spam, even in combat. At +6 to cast (Lileath's Blessing) that's pretty respectable. An enemy scroll could still be an issue though. He does have Rebirth, which obviously helps a lot but is a bit random.

I don't think 3 Magical S5 attacks will make a lot of difference, except possibly vs Ethereals. Spell-wise he has both Unforging and Convocation by default, in any match-up you want at least one of these. To make that +6 count though, the spam phase is often more attractive. What else will be in the HE army?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:13 am 
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Thanks for the comment! The +6 to cast is quite exciting, though he'll need to avoid the temptation of casting stuff on 1 die.

The army will be 2k, character heavy, with Eltharion on Stormwing, Belannaer and Eldyra in there (the latter a noble, giving Murderous Prowess to core units withing 12" most likely). The current draft includes 10 SH, 25 Spearmen, 20 Swordmasters and 2 RBT. Eldyra leading the way with the Silver Helms, Spearmen in support to take advantage of her buff. This leaves Belannaer with the Swordmasters, as is appropriate. Given that Undead are the opposition there shouldn't be much shooting so hopefully they'll arrive with at least 2 ranks intact. Thats 23 S5 attacks! Unless Mannfred decides to join in, they should do ok.

There will be 2 supporting forces - Empire and Dwarfs, at 1-1,2k each. The first one will most likely be some remaining Knights of Sigmar's Blood as well as an Inquisitor (lord-level Witchhunter). The Dwarfs remain an enigma ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:43 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Thanks for the comment! The +6 to cast is quite exciting, though he'll need to avoid the temptation of casting stuff on 1 die.

You're welcome sir. I think you're right here on the whole. The good thing is spells cast with two dice and +6 rapidly become hard to stop.

RE.Lee wrote:
The army will be 2k, character heavy, with Eltharion on Stormwing, Belannaer and Eldyra in there (the latter a noble, giving Murderous Prowess to core units withing 12" most likely). The current draft includes 10 SH, 25 Spearmen, 20 Swordmasters and 2 RBT. Eldyra leading the way with the Silver Helms, Spearmen in support to take advantage of her buff. This leaves Belannaer with the Swordmasters, as is appropriate. Given that Undead are the opposition there shouldn't be much shooting so hopefully they'll arrive with at least 2 ranks intact. Thats 23 S5 attacks! Unless Mannfred decides to join in, they should do ok.

If this is VC book Mannfred he's not that scary in combat in my experience. The souped-up Swordmasters should be a real powerhouse.

RE.Lee wrote:
The Dwarfs remain an enigma

Hopefully a rather bangy and destructive enigma!

:)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:43 am 
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How about giving him a straight up 6+ ward? That would make a serious difference in terms of survivability, making him better suited for a combat role in the SM. With high magic you can get a great ward save out.

And you can always 1-die a last spell in a phase (for him at least). With a 2:3 chance of getting through you have a decent chance of making a big impact with a small investment. And not a lot of downside.

SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
The Dwarfs remain an enigma

Hopefully a rather bangy and destructive enigma!

They'll definitely be short, hard to spot enigma... ;)

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:40 am 
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A ward save would be the obvious protection but I was looking for an excuse to use the Glittering Scales for some time now :wink: That synergy with the High Magic attribute would be missed, but perhaps it would be too much?

Now for Eldyra, the Queen of Blades. She'll have Noble stats and Star Lance, Golden Crown, Enchanted Shield and Potion of Foolhardiness for magic items. Heavy armour, shield, barded steed, BSB for mundane upgrades. She'll provide Murderous Prowess to core units within 12". To balance that, if she is slain, she turns into a Vampire (retaining her equipment). 166 points right now. Pretty powerful I think?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:22 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Pretty powerful I think?

Yes but her unit needs to get the charge.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:13 am 
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Indeed. Incidentally, being in combat is the same thing she'd want to avoid for fear of being turned into a Vampire! There's also that Starcraft reference I really like ;)

Going along with how the original ET scenario was written, I'd like character assassination being a part of the objectives. Eltharion, Belannaer, Eldyra and Mannfred will all be worth 1VP, while the summoning site will grant 3VP. This means the initial balance will be 4:3 in the Undead favour - they'll have a good incentive to protect Arkhan in the summoning site, but going for the enemy characters and preserving Mannfred will still be a viable option, as it will give them a 4:3 win, too.

The summoning site will have T6, W6 a 2+ ward against shooting and 4+ ward in close combat. This might seem to be a lot, but it is hill-sized so a big unit of Hammerers might cause something like 7 wounds on the charge alone. Should I increase the wound count here?

As for army sizes I was thinking 3k for Undead, 4,5k for defenders combined (2k for HE, 1,25k for Empire and Dwarfs, should everybody be available). Fair?

In other news - Merry Christmas! :)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:39 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
In other news - Merry Christmas!

Right back at you sir!

:)

I find it hard to judge the scenario, you've probably got a better feel for the balance of it. What's the Ward save vs spells for the summoning site?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:32 pm 
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Its 2+. I should've written ranged attacks instead of shooting. I was thinking about giving magic attacks some sort of break but a powered up Banishment or some runic war machines would've be so OP. I'll brainstorm a bit with my fellow campaigners - lets see what their opinion is.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:52 pm 
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I'll just go for a 4+ ward against everything but 10 wounds.

The battle will take place on Sunday. No Dwarfs of Empire after all - just High Elves and Wood Elf allies against Undead. 4k against 3k. Will post lists as they come in :wink:

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cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11670
Location: Otherworld
RE.Lee wrote:
I'll just go for a 4+ ward against everything but 10 wounds.

You can't beat a good Wounds total.

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
The battle will take place on Sunday. No Dwarfs of Empire after all - just High Elves and Wood Elf allies against Undead. 4k against 3k. Will post lists as they come in

Looking forward to it!

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Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2297
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Undead (1800+1200p):

Liche High Priest, Dispel Scroll
Tomb King, Sword of Antiheroes, Armour of Destiny, Ironcurse Icon
Necrotect
20 Skeleton Archers, command
3 Chariots
5 Horse Archers
5 Horse Archers
28 Tomb Guards, command, Banner of the Undying Legion
3 Necropolis Knights
Casket of Souls
Count Mannfred von Carstein
28 Crypt Ghouls, champion
5 Dire Wolves
9 Black Knights, command, Banner of the Burrows

High Elves (2200p):

Eltharion on Stormwing
Belannaer
Eldyra
10 Silver Helms, command, shields
29 Spearmen, command, Gleaming Pendant
20 Swordmasters, command, Banner of the World Dragon
3 RBT

My friend is still drafting his 1800p Wood Elf list :)

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cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


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