Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:34 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
The 8e High Elves Handbook

Image

Hello there, and welcome to the 8th edition High Elves handbook. The purpose of this thread is to provide a handy reference for anyone new to the High Elves army to get a quick primer on conventional wisdom regarding what is known about the army, as well as a hub of discussion for more experienced players to provide feedback and ensure that we are presenting the most up-to-date and accurate thoughts on how to play this army effectively.

Assumptions:

Before we begin, I will point out a few assumptions made when making this handbook:

1. No comp is considered when rating units. While I'm aware of certain popular comp systems such as ETC, I believe that the majority of environments actually play uncomped Warhammer, and it's also too much of a chore to tailor the advice for whatever restrictions any local group may or may not have. I'm not going to bother to do so, and I'm also going to give less consideration to any argument for or against a certain unit that begins with "Well, in my playgroup, we use [insert comp restrictions here]...".

2. This handbook assumes you're making a competitive army. If you're making a themed list, maybe you can use some of the stuff that's in here, but know that you're not the target audience. The goal of this handbook is to present an objective view of what an High Elves general can and should do to prepare a list that can win games. Themes often make sacrifices in playability in the name of aesthetic cohesion, so I don't think I have to explain how there could be some disagreement between that and what we're doing here.

3. This handbook is made for all-comers lists. If you only play one army over and over again, there are certain choices that go up or down in relative value. In this case, we'll consider all armies when making our choices (including the mirror-match), as tailoring is looked down upon in certain circles and downright illegal in competitive tournaments.

Ratings Scale:

OK, with all that said, it's time to introduce the ratings scale. I prefer to do this in color-coding, as shown below:

Red is dead. This is a choice that's so bad, it actively detracts from your army synergy and makes your list a worse one overall.
Yellow is conditional. It may shine in certain matchup or when used in certain ways, but in general it's a subpar choice.
Green is the average. Not necessarily a great choice, but it's rarely one you'll end up regretting.
Blue is an above-average or exceptional choice. These options frequently increase army synergy and overall list strength.
Purple is the highest rating in this handbook, and it's reserved for choices that should be staples in virtually all competitive lists. Don't leave home without 'em.

References:

Here, we will collect references to threads that may provide useful information and/or mathematical support to the arguments presented in this Handbook.

Book of Hoeth - Statistics and Tactics, by jadex
Do We Need Dispel Scrolls with a Book Archmage?, by various posters
New Book - Do we still have any useless units?, by various posters
Frostheart v. Flamespyre, by various posters
Great Eagle Tips and Tricks, by Collinisimo
Reavers vs. Eagles, by various posters
Units of Great Eagles, by various posters

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Last edited by rothgar13 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:13 pm, edited 12 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
High Elves Overall

This section is dedicated to discussing what a successful High Elves army is expected to look like. While there will obviously be variation based on an individual player's unit preferences and playstyle, you can mostly expect a tournament-caliber High Elves army to contain the following characteristics:

1. High Elves are a versatile army. Given the presence of potent elite infantry, Core heavy cavalry, lots of flying monsters, solid support for the Magic phase, and plenty of dedicated shooting units, units in the High Elves army can contribute everything from high Strength-attacks to flight to massed projectiles to potent spells, and everything in between. If you like participating in all phases of the game, the High Elves can make it happen for you. All this said, their versatility has a limit, which I will discuss below...

2. High Elves are an elite army. One of the few things that is conspicuously absent from the High Elves' book is a cheap, disposable trooper - everyone has above-average statlines, and a points cost to match. Given that, don't be surprised to find yourself outnumbered in most games you play, but hopefully the following makes up for that...

3. High Elves are an offensively oriented army. The higher points costs associated with the units combined with most units being mediocre defensively mean that High Elves are at their best when throwing the first punch - even armies that like to sit back and shoot will want to get their hits in before their opponents, such that their high relative fragility doesn't come back to bite them.

Army-Wide Special Rules

In this section, we'll discuss the potency of the special rules associated with High Elves in general, and how they impact the way the army is viewed and played.

Always Strikes First - This boon is almost astoundingly good when combined with the Elves' elite statlines in the Weapon Skill and Initiative departments, because re-rolls to hit in addition to going first is almost insult to injury. This is the defining special rule for a High Elves player, and I don't think it's a stretch to say it makes the army the elite, hard-hitting force it is.

Martial Prowess - While at first glance, the ability to pile attacks in an extra rank screams "field giant blocks of guys!", the truth is that the relative benefits in terms of added offense are most potent in a medium-sized unit. What that results in is a relative value boost for medium units (which are more able to fight enemies off than their equivalents in other armies), and while chaff units and lone models won't get much out of it, it's still a potent thing to have.

Valour of Ages - A re-roll for Fear/Panic/Terror against only one army, and that only really matters for units outside of BSB range. I'm tempted to say the ability is outright worthless, and it certainly comes close to that, but I can imagine enough fringe scenarios to keep it at "very conditional".

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Last edited by rothgar13 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
High Elves Magic Analysis

High Elves are blessed (or cursed, if you're indecisive) with the largest Lore selection of any army in Warhammer - not only do they have access to all 8 core rulebook Lores, but they add their own Lore of High Magic to the pile. This section will be dedicated to analyzing the impact a given Lore can have on High Elves, and how much investment would be recommended in said Lore.

Lore of Beasts

Lore Attribute - Wildheart: Lowering the minimum casting value on spells that clock in on the expensive side is potent, but the list of troop types that get to benefit from it is not exactly ideal. Still fairly useful for High Elves, though.

0. Wyssan's Wildform: An absolutely fantastic spell, this bolsters both your offensive and defensive potency for a turn, and the latter is something that High Elves can sorely use. The range isn't great, but that's not too big a deal.

1. The Flock of Doom: A magic missile with a decent amount of hits, but not nearly enough steam behind them. Feel free to compare this to Fireball or Soul Quench (heck, compare it to your Archers' shots!) and laugh.

2. Pann's Impenetrable Pelt: While the range is limited and it only affects a character, this can go a long way toward ensuring that a key member of your army doesn't croak at a very inconvenient time. The augmented version is nice, but hard to pull off.

3. The Amber Spear: This can act as either a pseudo-Bolt Thrower or Cannon shot, and as such can be a very good complementary piece for a shooting-oriented High Elves list, because this army lacks access to the truly lethal pieces of artillery.

4. The Curse of Anraheir: A great way to keep the movement of a big Horde in check, and it can do double duty in watering just about any unit down once it's in combat or pelting you with shooting. Probably the best general-use spell in this Lore.

5. The Savage Beast of Horros: A potent offensive boost for your characters, this can make even the wimpiest Mage combat-capable for a round (I'm only partially joking on that one). The augmented casting value is a whopper, though.

6. Transformation of Kadon: Given that most of our Mages' desire to be in combat ranges between "slim" and "none", and that this can be dispelled by a committed opponent in your Magic phase, I just think it's too much risk. That said, if you pull it off, the rewards of having something like a Mountain Chimera with re-rolls to hit are nothing short of spectacular.

Overall: I like how this Lore patches up some of the High Elves' defensive weaknesses, and while it doesn't have a strong ranged presence, it complements High Elf shooting abilities well. I think my preferred option here is a L4, but you can probably get decent mileage out of a L2 as well.

Lore of Death

Lore Attribute - Life Leeching: A potent Lore Attribute, as the ability to get dice back after doing damage can really keep a Magic phase going strong.

0. Spirit Leech: Given that High Elves are one of those armies where your main caster is likely your General (and doesn't have much incentive to field tons of low-level casters), you're probably not equipped to exploit this spell to maximum effect, but it will still have an impact if you use it to pick at lone models and weaker characters.

1. Aspect of the Dreadknight: Apart from the defensive benefits of causing Fear and/or Terror, I don't see this spell as particularly useful.

2. Caress of Laniph: A nice sniper spell, the augmentable range combined with the ability to pick at low-Strength models makes this well suited to targeting support characters like enemy mages.

3. Soulblight: A fantastic spell in most circumstances because of its synergy with both close combat and shooting, the augmented version can single-handedly win games for you. You'll rarely regret taking this.

4. Doom and Darkness: While High Elves don't necessarily have strategies like Terror-spam or Ld-dependent attacks to exploit this spell the way some other armies do, you should still be very happy to take it. The reason why is because without it, you may struggle at making ranked blocks turn tail and flee, and wars of attrition are battles that Elves rarely win.

5. The Fate of Bjuna: While this is undeniably a very potent sniping spell, its high casting cost and low range conspire to hold it back some.

6. The Purple Sun of Xereus: One of 8e's infamous "nuke" spells, a properly placed casting of this bad boy can carve bloody swathes through most enemy forces. To boot, the risk of it backfiring is very much reduced for High Elves, thanks to their sky-high Initiative. Grab it if you can and don't look back.

Overall: I think this is a potent Lore for High Elves, though its so-so range and the fact that it's not much to write home about on a Hero-level caster hold it back a bit. As implied in my previous statement, I think it's L4 or bust here.

Lore of Fire

Lore Attribute - Kindleflame: While piling on a bit more casting value to spells you cast on the same target does offer a pretty nice way to sap dispel dice (or draw them out early so that you don't get to benefit from this), it does pigeonhole your strategy if you're looking take advantage of it. Still solid, though.

0. Fireball: The ability to tune the range and number of hits combined with the hits being Flaming in nature make this a very good Swiss army knife sort of spell.

1. Cascading Fire-Cloak: Your main caster will likely not be too keen on getting into combat, but this can help his bunker out a bit if he's there. Only really useful if you're sticking him out on a limb, or if he's getting charged by chaff that can potentially be taken out by this, though.

2. Flaming Sword of Rhuin: A potent buff for a unit, as a boost to Wound meshes very well with High Elves' native accuracy. To boot, it can help you deal with pesky Regenerators and has synergy with the Gem of Sunfire. A nice spell.

3. The Burning Head: Given that it can be cast in combat (as per the FAQ), and that you can also use it to fish for Panic tests, this spell can be useful in a variety of situations, even if it's not flashy.

4. Piercing Bolts of Burning: A nice spell for thinning down big blocks (a useful thing for High Elves), though it deals with deep blocks better than it does Hordes.

5. Fulminating Flame Cage: A very nice synergy spell with your shooting, they can either stand still and get shot at, or advance and get torched by this. A potentially great way to deal with Hordes.

6. Flame Storm: A supercharged Fireball will probably get you more hits than this and strike at a longer range, and that's really all you need to know about it.

Overall: This Lore has no true standout spell, and there are several of them that come off as conditional or as outright duds. I don't think it's a bad Lore, especially on a Dragon Mage, but it's probably the weakest one High Elves have access to, and I would not recommend going past a L2.

Lore of Heavens

Lore Attribute - Roiling Winds: While obviously conditional, chances are flying troops are a pest you're going to want to get rid of as soon as possible, and this helps you do it. Usable.

0. Iceshard Blizzard: This is a nice debuff to hand out to an enemy unit you're in a grinding combat with, as well as to slow down enemy shooters (particularly artillery). A nice spell that's plenty useful.

1. Harmonic Convergence: Given how High Elves already have re-rolls to hit (and the armor's not much to write home about in most cases), I feel they don't truly get the mileage out of this that other armies do, but it's still useful.

2. Wind Blast: You can try and get cute with this thing and maybe pull off a few movement shenanigans, but 9 times out of 10 you're better off swapping it for Iceshard Blizzard.

3. Curse of the Midnight Wind: Essentially Harmonic Convergence's aggressive twin brother, this guy can help your troops crack heavily armored foes or swat away attempts at using Poison or Killing Blow. A bit corner-case, but decent.

4. Urannon's Thunderbolt: High Elves have plenty of access to low-Strength ranged attacks outside of magic, and this is a wonderful complement to that. To boot, its augmented range is impressive.

5. Comet of Cassandora: While certainly nothing to be relied on, don't judge its value on damage alone - the threat of this thing dropping on an opponent can often create zones that you can exploit or occupy. Just be careful you don't lose some of your guys to it.

6. Chain Lightning: A very solid spell, this can help clear tougher flavors of chaff, threaten lone models, and put a couple of casualties on blocks, all at once. My only gripe with it is that the damage is spread out rather than focused, but that's not too bad.

Overall: This Lore offers plenty of useful spells, but it doesn't really have a standout. As such, I think it suffers from a bit of "jack of all trades" syndrome. Anything from a L1 for Iceshard to a L4 for as much as you can get can be useful here.

Lore of High Magic

Lore Attribute - Shield of Saphery: A very nice Lore Attribute, it's rather blah on common troops, but gets pretty great on something like Phoenix Guard or any unit accompanying an Anointed of Asuryan into battle. Definitely a selling point for this Lore.

0. Drain Magic: A very interesting spell, this basically endeavors to cancel out your opponent's efforts to either enhance his troops or water down yours, and it's a cheap cast. The augmented version also has a very nice casting cost considering the magnitude of the effect.

0. Soul Quench: While the range is nothing to write home about, it packs a lot of hits for its casting value. A good general-use spell.

1. Apotheosis: The ability to regain Wounds (especially multiple Wounds) on specific models is rare in this game, and as such it should be prized. The aftereffect is mostly window dressing.

2. Hand of Glory: Getting a boost to stats High Elves are already potent in is a nice way to press your advantage, especially if your goal is to whittle them down with shooting or you're in a critical combat where your target numbers can change because of this. That said, it can come off as being a bit redundant in some cases, and it won't help you hit harder.

3. Walk Between Worlds: This is the money spell for this Lore, in my opinion - the ability to dictate the terms of engagement by moving entire units large distances while mostly ignoring what's on the board around them is a great way to put your troops in position to win you games.

4. Tempest: A large template (which can hurt massed weak infantry) with a bit of an aftereffect. Decent, though nothing special.

5. Arcane Unforging: A potentially backbreaking spell for armies that rely heavily on tooled-up characters, the only flaw this spell has is that the item is randomly selected if there's more than one.

6. Fiery Convocation: While it is expensive to cast and it won't do much to anything heavily armored, putting damage on every model in a unit is something that should not be underestimated, especially when it costs the opponent dice to make it go away.

Overall: I think this is one of the premier Lores the High Elves have access to - no spell can be said to be subpar, and the Lore Attribute is potent. Anything from a L1 Soul Quench spammer to a L4 can do well with this Lore.

Lore of Life

Lore Attribute - Lifebloom: The ability to heal your beefy multiple-Wound models AND get a spell effect as well is absolutely incredible value. This may be the most compelling reason to use this Lore.

0. Earth Blood: A 5+ Regen save is pretty potent, but the fact that it has to be Mage's unit really holds it back, because you usually don't want his unit in a fight that matters.

1. Awakening of the Wood: A blah magic missile that has a little more bite when close to a forest. The prospect of doing S5 hits holds some appeal, but overall this is nothing special.

2. Flesh to Stone: This spell patches up the High Elves' most notable weakness, and can do so for relatively cheap. You can go from defensive pushover to stalwart in the blink of an eye, and that goes a long way.

3. Throne of Vines: While protection from miscasts and a boost to the effectiveness of your other spells seems potent at first glance, the fact that this spell doesn't do a whole lot on its own and that the Banner of the World Dragon can do a reasonable facsimile of one its more potent effects means that it's nice, but no must-have.

4. Shield of Thorns: I like this spell a lot, and the reason why is that it's damage you can sneak into combat (relatively rare, when you think about it), it's easy to cast, and it costs dice to get rid of. That's worth having if you ask me.

5. Regrowth: While this spell won't fix the High Elves' fragility problems on its own, bringing guys back has good synergy with our native abilities (most notably Martial Prowess) and as such should be prized.

6. The Dwellers Below: And this is arguably the most dangerous "nuke" spell in Warhammer for characters - no Look Out, Sir! means you can succumb to it at any time, and that (plus the attendant decimation the unit will endure) has the potential to turn any game on its head. Take it if you roll it, and don't look back.

Overall: This Lore is dedicated to fixing High Elves' weaknesses, and as such can make your force a lot more well-rounded. Not a Lore for a L1 (and even a L2 is a bit iffy), but a L4 can use this really well.

Lore of Light

Lore Attribute - Exorcism: This Attribute is very conditional, but when it comes up, it does so in a big way. It would be nice to have more of a general-use ability, but this isn't crap.

0. Shem's Burning Gaze: A basic magic missile that lets you crank up the intensity of the hits, thus expanding your target repertoire. I'm a fan of this sort of spell.

1. Pha's Protection: Any spell that helps out your defense as a High Elves player is much, much appreciated, and this one can even be bubble-cast! Arguably the most useful spell of the Lore for this army.

2. Speed of Light: While WS10 and I10 sounds amazing at first glance (and they are against a lot of armies), that sentiment should be tempered by the fact that High Elves have pretty good WS and I values pretty much across the board already. Good, but not as potent a boost as it is for other armies.

3. Light of Battle: While rallying on the spot and automatically passing Leadership tests is a nice way to make up for the dice failing you, its applicability is limited, since you have to be in a situation to take those tests (and where passing is unlikely) for this to make an impact, and the Leadership values on this army are pretty solid. Nothing to bend over backwards for.

4. Net of Amyntok: This spell is unique in that it's one of the few ways you can try to stop people from casting spells. You can also use it to try and make sure you catch a fleeing enemy unit by making sure that flight never happens. Unfortunately, passing a Strength test isn't the most stringent restriction, and if they pass this does nothing. It has potential, but I think you need to get a little lucky for it to register on my radar.

5. Banishment: Nothing special if you're taking a lone caster, but if you invest in multiple Mages, this spell will reward you handsomely for it - a S6 or S7 magic missile has the ability to threaten some really tough targets most other things can't touch.

6. Birona's Timewarp: While the Movement edge is undeniably potent, as is the +1A, the Always Strikes First sadly does nothing for High Elves. Still, it's a nice buff to either get yourself in position or improve your output.

Overall: While this is a potent Lore, some of the boosts overlap with High Elves' existing strengths, and it requires some investment in additional casters to get true returns out of it. If you decide to go that route, a L4 with a few L1 assistants will give you good mileage.

Lore of Metal

Lore Attribute - Metalshifting: This is a Lore Attribute that shouldn't be one. Only 2 out of the 7 spells use it, so it would have been nice to have seen something that would actually take effect most of the time. As it is, this is very unsatisfactory.

0. Searing Doom: This is a potent anti-armor tool, which is good to have as High Elves, because that's something that can give you some trouble. The augmented version can blast holes in targets as tough as Mournfangs and Skullcrushers.

1. Transmutation of Lead: While this lasts for the rest of the game, it's a pretty minor effect, so it's not something I'm too keen on.

2. Enchanted Blades of Aiban: This effect combines with the High Elves' native accuracy to make a pretty powerful buff, and it works on shooting as well to boot. A nice spell to have.

3. Glittering Robe: High Elves' armor saves are nothing to write home about for the most part, but this will go a long way to protecting them against anything but the beefiest foes. The bubble casting is definitely nice.

4. Gehenna's Golden Hounds: Given that this allows Look Out, Sir! rolls, this is pretty much just a poor man's Searing Doom. Keep it if you really need armor-punching ability.

5. Transmutation of Lead: A mild debuff, but given the High Elves' statlines, this may just be enough to put you over the top in a combat. Still, its casting value is a bit high for what it does.

6. Final Transmutation: This "nuke" spell is scary for characters, even if it will only affect them on a 6. Moreover, its range is nice and it has a nasty aftereffect. A potent spell you should use early and often.

Overall: This Lore is a bit conditional, but it help High Elves deal with situations they're not particularly well suited to addressing. That said, I'm not a fan of it on a low-level caster, so I think you either commit to it with a L4, or you skip it.

Lore of Shadow

Lore Attribute - Smoke and Mirrors: The usefulness of this Lore Attribute is very player and situation-dependent, and as such hard to assign a fixed value to. It can be completely useless in one situation, and game-saving in another. Make sure to keep your eyes peeled for ways to use it.

0. Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma: A very potent spell, the ability to water down this many different enemy stats for such a low casting value can really wreak havoc with a unit's effectiveness.

1. Steed of Shadows: Unless you have lone characters you want to give an emergency chance at repositioning, chances are you won't use this much.

2. The Enfeebling Foe: This spell really helps patch up a quintessential High Elf weakness in that it makes you harder to hurt, and to boot it takes dice for the enemy to make it go away. Good to have.

3. The Withering: Given that you can take advantage of this debuff in both the Shooting and Close Combat phases, this can be a death sentence for an enemy unit. An extremely potent spell for High Elves.

4. The Penumbral Pendulum: A rather blah spell, given that it only hits a line, and gives you tons of ways to avoid the effect (pass the Intiative test, fail to wound, fail to do enough Wounds for it to matter).

5. Pit of Shades: A potent spell (pretty much a given, becasue it's an I-test-or-die), though the scattering factor makes it a bit unreliable. I would recommend sticking with the unaugmented version in most cases because of that.

6. Okkam's Mindrazor: High Elves' speed, attack output, strong Ld value, and re-rolls to hit make them some of the best, if not the best, targets in the game for this spell. Lay it down, and watch the carnage.

Overall: This is an interesting Lore - the spells that are bad are terrible, and the ones that are good are fantastic, with not a whole lot in between. Fortunately, there are a lot more good spells than bad, and that includes the signature. Any kind of investment in Shadow is a good investment if you ask me, and a L4 with Shadow is hard to beat as a Mage choice.

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Last edited by rothgar13 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:11 pm, edited 23 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
High Elves Unit Analysis

Lords

Alarielle the Radiant - I feel that she pushes you strongly in the "big block of Elite Unit X with a bunch of characters in it" playstyle (especially when her Heirloom items are taken into consideration), but that's not all bad when she gives you the incentive that she does. I'd consider her to be useful.

Alith Anar - His skill set (a decently fighty character with an accurate Bolt Thrower and Scout attached) makes me want to like him, but I have concerns about a guy who will almost certainly be your General ending up knee-deep in enemy lines early in the game. You can avoid that by just deploying him normally, but I feel that doesn't use him to full potential.

Anointed of Asuryan - This guy has the skill set to be a potent support character (Immune to Psychology and a unit-wide 6+ Ward are nice benefits), and his mount option can make him a factor in a "flying circus" sort of list, should you go that route. To boot, his having a 4+ Ward baked in means (a) you don't have to put an item that grants it on him, and (b) you can spend more of his points allowance on doing other things. All in all, this is the combat Lord I'm most fond of.

Archmage - Given the incredible Lore access and the potent magic items a Lord-level caster has access to, I struggle to find a good reason to not recommend him for pretty much every list. Magic solves problems, and he's really good at magic.

Eltharion the Grim - While he is a hybrid Lord in that he can fight and cast, his casting is a bit watered down by High Elf standards, and a Griffon makes for a rather "meh" mount for a Lord. I'm not sold on this guy, though it's worth pointing out that you can mitigate some of his issues by just fielding him on foot (though in my opinion he compares unfavorably to the Loremaster).

Loremaster of Hoeth - Certainly an interesting character, he promises a hybrid of combat ability and casting punch, but I think the best way to view him is as an Archmage alternative that is somewhat combat-competent. With that in mind, I definitely think he's usable (and the signature spells give him a surprisingly deep toolbox), but I feel that his lower caster level gives up an important advantage, and his locked-in kit with no mount options is a bit limiting.

Prince - While he is not without his share of positives (better offensive statline than the other Lords, sole source of Ld10 barring a Standard of Discipline, can ride a Dragon and not be uncomfortable in combat), I don't feel they trump the positives the other Lords have to offer. Just a bit too vanilla for me.

Teclis - Very fragile, but he has potent spellcasting tools and the option for a jaw-droppingly good spell selection. Keep him out of anything resembling close combat and he should serve you well.

Tyrion - He's tougher than your garden-variety Lord and has some pretty nice gear, but his price tag prohibits a strong casting presence alongside him in a lot of games, and I'm inclined to hold that against him.

Heroes

Caradryan - Essentially a Hero-level version of the Anointed of Asuryan, this guy has a baked-in Ward save, a nice mount option, and the ability to leave a proverbial parting shot when dropped. Pretty good.

Dragon Mage of Caledor - At first glance, this unit doesn't make a lot of sense; it's a Fire caster (a Lore that likes to sit back and blast) on a Sun Dragon (a close combat-oriented monster). However, the ability to wear Dragon Armor and the guarantee that you will have Flaming Sword of Rhuin make this unit usable, if a bit corner-case.

Handmaiden of the Everqueen - A character that was obviously meant as an companion piece to Sisters of Avelorn, though I'm of the opinion she's a solid standalone piece, when properly equipped. BS7 and Quick to Fire means she rarely misses.

Korhil - Talk about a glass cannon; he's Stubborn and he spits out 4 WS6 S6 attacks with Killing Blow at ASF speed, but the only thing standing between him and a painful death are 2 T3 Wounds and a 4+ armor save. Too squishy for me.

Lothern Sea Helm - Whether it be on a Skycutter Chariot or on foot, I feel that this is a character searching for a purpose. His meager combat statline means he won't add much punch to your cause, and while Naval Discipline is potent, few armies will have a combat unit important enough to pay the premium he represents over a Noble for it.

Lothern Sea Helm BSB - The first thing to point out is that I consider a Battle Standard-Bearer of some kind to be mandatory; with that in mind, I think that the Sea Helm can offer a couple of nice things, but he's far from a slam dunk choice in this role.

Mage - Reasonably priced, can carry nice Arcane items, and the casting bump when casting High Magic can really help here. I like having at least one of these guys around for a good signature spell, if nothing else.

Noble - I'm a tad skeptical of their ability to contribute while on foot because of their relative vulnerability, but a Noble on some sort of mount (be it an Elven Steed, or something more exotic like a Great Eagle or a Griffon) can definitely make some noise.

Noble BSB - The first thing to point out is that I consider a Battle Standard-Bearer of some kind to be mandatory; that said, the ability to field it on a flying mount (which may confer a 18" bubble, if you go for the Griffon) can really get this effect to where you need it most, and putting him on an Elven Steed is a good way to add punch to that unit while keeping him relatively safe.

Core

Archers - While they won't always look flashy, these guys are somewhat reasonably priced small arms fire troops that can fight a little, and that has value. S3 bow shots will need some support to make a dent in most things, though.

Ellyrian Reavers - A very useful chaff unit, given that Fast Cavalry will give you a good shot at regrouping, moving, and diverting the foe again. A quality choice when taken in minimum units to gum up the enemy's plans.

Lothern Sea Guard - These guys are billed as a jack-of-all-trades unit, with their spears providing the close combat prowess and bows taking care of the ranged department. That said, I think the versatility is not worth what has been traded in for it both points and ability (their bows only have a 24" range). Usable, but definitely the nadir of this section if you ask me.

Silver Helms - These guys offer an abundance of speed wrapped up in a heavily armored shell, and that makes them a strong choice for a Core unit. I like them as anything from a "hard chaff" minimum unit to a large character delivery device.

Spearmen - While S3 Spear attacks aren't exactly scary to most foes, there figure to be tons of them if you make a large enough unit (which makes them a prime target for offensive buffs), and they're the cheapest bodies in the book. Their access to a magic banner is also a major plus. Usable, particularly in big, Steadfast-breaking blocks.

Special

Dragon Princes of Caledor - While they are potent on the charge and feature some nice defensive perks over their Core Silver Helm cousins, they're a bit uninspiring offensively in later turns, given their price tag. Still usable, though not as a toe-to-toe grinding unit (at least, not by themselves).

Lion Chariot of Chrace - Its being Stubborn and having a solid offensive arsenal doesn't change the fact that it is very fragile defensively, and thus expected to die to most things once its payload has been delivered. With that in mind, it's overpriced.

Phoenix Guard - Arguably the most useful of our infantry units, these guys feature something rather rare in High Elves infantry, and that is durability. Throw in some nice perks like a high base Leadership, Fear, and re-rollable S4 attacks, and you have yourself a nice anvil unit that's one buff away from shredding the foe while taking little damage in return.

Shadow Warriors - Their range and high Ballistic Skill (plus being Skirmishers) makes them quality missile troops, and being Scouts lets them do double duty as war machine hunters. A bit too expensive to be fielded in the numbers needed to make them a shooting threat (especially given they only hit at S3), but the latter role is a niche High Elves don't have many options for.

Skycutter Chariot - Flight and the option to act as a mobile artillery platform make this a more attractive choice than the other Chariots in my mind, but its fragility still looms large.

Swordmasters of Hoeth - The quintessential "glass cannon" elite infantry unit; they hit hard, but do not deal with getting hit back very well. I feel this is a unit well suited to a more mobile playstyle, where you would attempt to leverage their high attack output by sending multiple units at vulnerable foes who would succumb to the onslaught.

Tiranoc Chariot - While this Chariot is inexpensive enough to be considered expendable if need be, its defenses are even more lackluster than the others, so I still don't like it. I'm also of the opinion that fielding units of them is a trap; it expands your frontage in a huge way, exposes you to Panic, and all for a handful of extra S5 hits. Chances are you can't afford to field multiple units of them, so just field them as singles instead.

White Lions of Chrace - Stubborn and their Lion Cloaks give these guys a bit of staying power, and swinging at S6 makes them your go-to unit when dealing with armored or tough units. A strong choice in this section.

Rare

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - While they're a bit fragile for their points, the ability to fire off shots that outright ignore armor is an important piece in the High Elf shooting arsenal, especially against targets like Monstrous Cavalry. Having the Volley to have them still be useful against chaff and infantry is just icing.

Flamespyre Phoenix - I don't feel that this unit is bad, just overshadowed. Despite being a monster, it's not much of a fighter, and while Wake of Fire is a neat ability, I don't feel that it justifies this guy's price tag on its own. The Phoenix Reborn is a neat gimmick, but it's just that - a gimmick. Color me unimpressed.

Frostheart Phoenix - A very potent unit, this gives you a flying monster with some measure of protection, as well as an absolutely brutal combat effect. If you're planning to win your games in close combat, I think you owe it to yourself to bring these.

Great Eagle - These guys are so good at the business of redirecting when they are lone models, that entire tacticas have been written about it. I'm not sure I'd put up the points required to field them in units, though, and they do face competition from the other entries in this section.

Sisters of Avelorn - The range is a bit disappointing (and their lack of both a Musician and the Skirmishers special rule is inexplicable to me), but the fact of the matter is that these are archers with high Ballistic Skill, extra punch, and the ability to strip Regeneration, which makes them valuable for a shooting-centric army, as well as anyone who figures to face armor-happy Destruction armies on a regular basis.

Mounts

Ashtari - A Frostheart Phoenix with a little more beef on it in the Heroes slot is a pretty worthwhile investment if you ask me.

Elven Steed - It's cheap, it moves fast, and it lets you be in a unit. Hard to go wrong with this one.

Flamespyre Phoenix - This thing is just a comedy of errors as a mount - an Anointed is a fighting character, so he (naturally) wants to get into fights. A Flamespyre isn't really that keen on the concept of close combat (by monster standards). Moreover, the fact that the rider goes down with it if it falls is just horrifyingly bad, and the +1 on the Phoenix Reborn Chart does not make up for it. I wouldn't touch this mount choice with a 10-foot pole.

Frostheart Phoenix - A very strong mount choice, it offers survivability with a dash of combat punch thrown in, not to mention the ever-handy ability to fly. If you're basing your strategy around fliers, this is likely what your General's riding.

Great Eagle - A very nice defensive mount upgrade (can fly, gives you T4/W3 if you didn't already have it) that I think is especially useful for Nobles.

Griffon - It's a bit squishy, but it has good offensive upgrades, and the ability to field it out of the Heroes allowance plays a big part in why I think it's very much a viable choice.

Moon Dragon - Not particularly bad, but it suffers greatly from the comparison to the Frostheart Phoenix, especially on the points front (their abilities give the Phoenix a slight edge, and the Dragon is a lot more expensive as insult to injury).

Skycutter Chariot - While its fragility in combat is an issue and not having access to the Bolt Thrower upgrade is kind of lame, it does get a big survivability boost against incoming fire from the Sea Helm riding it. Respectable.

Star Dragon - Massive stats, but it just costs so many points when combined with its rider, that it's hard to get them into most conventional games.

Sun Dragon - A bit wimpy on the fighting end for my taste, especially given the price tag.

Tiranoc Chariot - Another amazingly awful mount option, the inability to march combines with the inability to join a unit (unlike Tomb Kings, our Chariots do not ignore that part of the rules) and the fact that the Chariot can be targeted separately (and is damn easy to kill) to make me question the decision to ever field this.

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Last edited by rothgar13 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:06 pm, edited 24 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
High Elves Item Analysis

High Elves Armybook

Magic Weapons

Star Lance - Sure, you only get it on a charge, but when fighting the sort of target it shines against (targets that are few in number and rely on armor or Toughness to protect them), you really only need the one set of swings. I'm of the opinion this is a quality offensive item.

The Reaver Bow - Pretty much the main way to take advantage of our characters' high Ballistic Skill values, it also has nice synergy with the Potion of Strength in giving you a one-time helping of very high-Strength shots.

The Blade of Leaping Gold - Let's take an already niche item in the Sword of Bloodshed, add an even higher points cost to it, and all for a marginal secondary effect! This is almost painfully bad.

Magic Armor

Armor of Caledor - You can easily get a 2+ save with Dragon armor on a Dragon Mage, Prince, Noble, or Anointed, so this is the realm of foot-only characters like the Loremaster, and they'll probably be drawn to other items. Not sold.

Shadow Armor - I think this item has potential, but until I can see or figure out some way to integrate it into a list's strategy, I'm going to have to remain skeptical.

Shield of the Merwyrm - Given that this follows most of the normal rules for parry saves (frontal close combat on foot only), I think it's solid, but nothing special.

Magic Talismans

Golden Crown of Atrazar - Very cheap, and while the effect is one use only, it's one heck of an effect. A quality item.

Magic Standards

Banner of Avelorn

Banner of the World Dragon - The subject of much wailing, gnashing of teeth, and rending of garments in other forums (particularly the Daemon ones), this bad boy can protect your guys from effects as diverse as miscasts to tooled-up enemy fighting characters. If you have a unit that you really want to keep around, this is one of the best ways to do it.

Arcane Items

Book of Hoeth - A very potent Arcane Item, this can let you fish for the Irresistible Force/Dispel you may need to gain a critical leg up, or simply tip the odds of a given roll in your favor time and again. I think it's an essential component of High Elf magical strategy.

Enchanted Items

Cloak of Beards - Sure, it only works against one army, but it wrecks that army hard for not that many points. A nasty little curveball if you can sneak it into a list.

Gem of Sunfire - Essentially a one-time dose of Flaming Sword for a unit that already has Flaming Attacks, it has timing issues (when exactly is this activated? The description doesn't say), and it requires a character to lug it around. Could be useful for a Dragon Mage, but otherwise I'm not sold.

Horn of Isha

Khaine's Ring of Fury - Soul Quench is a nice spell to get another casting of every Magic phase, especially considering its Lore Attribute. A nice item to have around.

Moranion's Wayshard - This is another item rife with potential, but I have misgivings with regards to what a unit of Archers or Spearmen will accomplish when left out on an island like that, and it eats up a huge piece of a character's points allowance. I'm a bit of a skeptic, but someone will probably figure out how to use this.

Warhammer Rulebook

Magic Weapons

Berserker Sword - For most purposes, this is a Sword of Battle with a drawback. Meh.

Biting Blade - Armor Piercing is decent, but you probably should be looking for something more.

Fencer's Blades - Most fighting characters in this army have good WS values already, but this can be a sneaky-good way of keeping an Archmage from getting hit too much.

Giant Blade - Pricey, but something like an Anointed can spare the room for it.

Gold Sigil Sword - I can count on one hand the number of foes where striking at I10 will be relevant for a High Elves fighting character.

Obsidian Blade - It won't help you wound, but at least you'll get through armor if you do. A bit pricey, though.

Ogre Blade - A big Strength bump that lets you keep both your shield and your re-rolls (as compared to a great weapon). I'm a fan.

Relic Sword - Why settle for wounding at such a low value?

Shrieking Blade - If you want to cause Fear, sit in Phoenix Guard or ride a Griffon.

Spellthieving Sword - Kill the Wizard, and his spells won't matter.

Sword of Anti-Heroes - While it is a bit of a gamble, it doesn't take much to make it worth your while, and if you run into a 2+ character deathstar unit, much fun will be had (by you, anyway).

Sword of Battle - More attacks is nice, but at some point you need to put some sting behind your swings.

Sword of Bloodshed - Lots of extra attacks, but that won't matter much if they can't hurt anything, and it's pricey.

Sword of Might - While a Halberd does more or less the same thing, the fact that you can wear this with a shield is a big deal if you ask me.

Sword of Strife - A good amount of extra attacks at a decent price.

Sword of Striking - This can make hitting a virtual certainty, though it doesn't do much as far as making those hits matter.

Sword of Swift Slaying - We obviously don't need this.

Tormentor Sword - Dirt cheap, but even then the effect is conditional enough for its merit to be questioned.

Warrior Bane - It doesn't help you wound, but if you do, the foe loses Attacks, and it costs next to nothing. Solid.

Magic Armor

Armor of Destiny - Some nice armor with a potent Ward save attached, I expect to see this in most, if not all, lists.

Armor of Fortune - Decent, but the dropoff from a 4+ Ward save to a 5+ matters.

Armor of Silvered Steel - High Elves have a far superior version of this item in their own list, and even that struggles to see play.

Charmed Shield - A nice way to keep any important fliers from getting victimized by shooting early.

Dragonhelm - A cheap armor bump, and a 2+ Ward against flaming if you need it. Nice.

Enchanted Shield - Good defensive bonus, for next to no points. Sure, why not?

Gambler's Armor - The odds on this gamble often aren't good enough.

Glittering Scales - Sometimes the best defense is not getting hit in the first place.

Helm of Discord - Can't say I can see this effect happening too often, but if it does it can turn fights on their head.

Shield of Ptolos - Passable on an Eagle/Griffon/Dragon rider, meh elsewhere.

Spellshield - Too small a benefit to really make a blip on the radar.

Trickster's Helm - A nice item, but it has poor synergy with Elves' low Toughness values.

Magic Talismans

Dawnstone - If you can cobble together a strong armor save, this is a quality defensive boost.

Dragonbane Gem - Not quite as useful as it is for other armies because of Dragon armor, but still solid.

Luckstone - It doesn't cost much, and a do-over can be nice sometimes.

Obsidian Amulet - Gives your unit a decent save against magical effects, but you can get that from an Anointed. Meh.

Obsidan Lodestone - Given the existence of the Anointed, this just doesn't figure to be a good deal for the High Elves.

Obsidian Trinket - Too small a save to matter.

Opal Amulet - Overshadowed to some extent by the Golden Crown, but it's not terrible.

Pidgeon Plucker Pendant - Conditional, but its save is good enough to be worth a look.

Seed of Rebirth - Just sit next to an Anointed or a High Magic caster instead.

Talisman of Endurance - The drop from a 4+ Ward to a 5+ Ward is a bit of a doozy.

Talisman of Preservation - A premier save that most, if not all, lists should employ.

Talisman of Protection - Obsoleted by the Anointed of Asuryan if you ask me.

Arcane Items

Book of Ashur - A poor man's Book of Hoeth if you ask me.

Channeling Staff - Just not that noteworthy a benefit.

Dispel Scroll - I consider it one of the staples of magic defense in the game, and would definitely recommend it. That said, I wouldn't bend over backward to justify its inclusion.

Earthing Rod - A nice safety valve for miscasts at critical times.

Feedback Scroll - The circumstances where this is good are rather few and far between, and it eats up a lot of points.

Forbidden Rod - On the surface, this seems like a terrible item for High Elves and their expensive Mages. However, combining it with the Banner of the World Dragon makes it a way to jump-start your Magic phase at minimal risk to the Mage carrying it. In that context, it's usable.

Power Scroll - Casting a nasty spell like Dwellers or Fiery Convocation at half difficulty can make for a potent Magic phase.

Power Stone - High Elves' power dice generation abilities leave something to be desired, so an "emergency" source of dice is nice to have.

Scepter of Stability - A little extra "oomph" for a dispel after the fact. Can come in handy.

Scroll of Leeching - Not particularly impressive, and it's pricey as insult to injury. Nah.

Scroll of Shielding - Cheap, and it can take the sting off a lot of damage spells out there.

Sivejir's Hex Scroll - It can be a nasty surprise to combat caster types like Vampire Lords, Daemon Princes, and our own Loremaster, especially if it goes off when the unit in question is in combat.

Staff of Sorcery - Not enough of an effect to stake a claim for itself along side the Book of Hoeth.

Trickster's Shard - Expensive and irrelevant; not a good combination.

Wand of Jet - Its advantages in timing don't justify its having a higher price tag and a lesser effect than the Power Stone if you ask me.

Enchanted Items

Arabyan Carpet - Most folks should just ride an Eagle instead.

Crown of Command - Not a no-brainer because High Elves have a nice Stubborn unit already, but still very nice.

Featherfoe Torc - This save is just too conditional.

Fozzrik's Folding Fortress - As long as the building's size is kept within reason, piling in a bunch of Archers or Sisters of Avelorn and having them fire away doesn't sound like a bad idea (especially for the latter).

Healing Potion - Expensive, and High Elves actually have access to healing magic.

Ironcurse Icon - A cheap save against shots, though it doesn't play nice with an Anointed.

Potion of Foolhardiness - This item makes mounted charges with something like the Star Lance that much more dangerous, for almost no points.

Potion of Speed - Not sure how often you'll need this, but it's cheap.

Potion of Strength - Potent when used in combat, or as a way to add more steam to a round of Reaver Bow shots.

Potion of Toughness - Can help your character hang on for a critical turn.

Ruby Ring of Ruin - Overshadowed by the Ring of Fury if you ask me.

The Other Trickster's Shard - Provided you're not sitting a unit that depends on its Ward saves, this can be a nice way to pierce the highest level of defense.

The Terrifying Mask of EEE! - Funny name aside, this is a nice and cheap way to get Terror on a character that was probably never going to be relied on for his Leadership in the first place. That said, the access to mounts that cause Terror make it feel a bit superfluous in a lot of cases.

Wizarding Hat - Use a Loremaster or a Mage instead.

Magic Standards

Banner of Eternal Flame - High Elves can get fire from other sources, but this is nice if you really need it.

Banner of Swiftness - Even more movement for a unit of Cavalry (or getting infantry pretty close to cavalry speed) is an intriguing benefit.

Gleaming Pennant - Cheap, and it can help a unit that figures to be far from the BSB stand its ground.

Lichebone Pennant - Passable in a unit of Dragon Princes. Otherwise, you're better off with an Anointed.

Rampager's Standard - Given that Dragon Princes can take it without needing a BSB, this is actually a pretty nice banner for them.

Ranger's Standard - Pricey, but Strider is a nice ability to have.

Razor Standard - A nice addition to the armor-cracking arsenal of several elite units.

Scarecrow Banner - Conditional, but so cheap that it doesn't matter all that much.

Standard of Discipline - Given that I'm not a big fan of Princes, this is probably the best way to get Ld10 in your army, should you feel you need it.

Wailing Banner - Terror is neat, but this banner is a bit expensive.

War Banner - Vanilla as they come, but the effect is solid, especially for cavalry looking to sit and grind.

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Last edited by rothgar13 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:49 am, edited 21 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
High Elves Unit Formations and Tactics

Lords

Alarielle the Radiant - I think she's at her best in a big, bad unit of elite infantry, making sure that everyone makes it across the table and that they're buffed up when they do.

Alith Anar - I like placing him in a unit of Shadow Warriors, so that marching + shooting becomes an option in his toolkit. If you're leery of having your source of Ld10 scampering about in the backline relatively unsupported, though, bear in mind that just because you can Scout doesn't mean you have to.

Anointed of Asuryan - The two main avenues I see here are to either lead a Flying Circus list atop a Frostheart Phoenix (thus getting you yet another flier on the table), or to bolster a unit of Swordmasters or White Lions with his Blessings of Asuryan and Ld9. I'd also invest a little in his gear - 3 re-rollable S5 attacks and a 5+ armor save are OK, but you can do better.

Archmage - For any Lore other than High Magic, I'm nestling this guy in a bunker of Archers and having him do his thing from a safe distance. Given the Shield of Saphery Lore Attribute and the middling range on High Magic spells, though, an Archmage with that Lore is sitting in elite infantry (which will have the Banner of the World Dragon, unless it's Phoenix Guard), and bolstering their ability to take hits.

Eltharion the Grim - Not that big a fan of Griffons on Lords, so I think using him as a Loremaster-equivalent on foot is probably the way to go here, exotic potential notwithstanding.

Loremaster of Hoeth - Given the fact that he's at least OK in a fight, and that several of his spells (Earth Blood, and to a lesser extent Wildform and Spirit Leech) don't have the greatest range, I'd stick him in elite infantry. I would consider the Book of Hoeth to be borderline mandatory here, in order to make up the gap in casting/dispelling bonuses he faces against other Lord-level casters.

Prince - A Dragon rider could be your General of choice for a Flying Circus style of army, but I favor an Elven Steed-riding combat kit in a unit of Dragon Princes the most, especially if he also brings Stubborn along.

Teclis - Even squishier than your garden-variety Archmage, so his place is WAY in the back. Plan your spell selection accordingly.

Tyrion - When placed front and center in the cavalry unit of your choice, he will provide lots of pop and some Regen-stripping.

Heroes

Caradryan - In general, I think of this guy as a way to get a Frostheart out of Hero points, and that would be my preferred use for him. He's essentially a souped-up version of a Griffon Noble.

Dragon Mage of Caledor - I'd load this guy up with as much armor as I can (think Dragon armor + Enchanted Shield, or something similar) and run him into combat; if you cast Flaming Sword, and you combine it with the Gem of Sunfire and a nice magic weapon, this guy could do some real damage out of the Heroes slot.

Handmaiden of the Everqueen - Obviously, her ideal scenario is to sit in a unit of Sisters of Avelorn, preferably with The Reaver Bow and a Potion of Strength to act as a heavy-hitting shooter. That said, this setup is nice enough that you could field her as a standalone piece if you're not bringing Sisters.

Korhil - Units like Phoenix Guard, Spearmen, and Swordmasters are not Stubborn on their own, and that's where he can do the most good. I'd say the latter is the safest place for him overall, though, because you're probably not trying to send them into the heavy hitters (unless they can cut said heavy hitters down before they swing).

Lothern Sea Helm - A foot BSB in a Horde of White Lions or something similar is the application I'm keenest on, as he protects you from getting flank-and-rear charged, and the inability to combine Naval Discipline with a Stand & Shoot reaction is a moot point.

Mage - The most common use I'd have for this guy is as a Scroll/Ring of Fury caddy, or as fuel for a Light coven (no need to go above L1 in any of these cases). However, a Flying Circus style of list likely can't afford an Archmage or Loremaster, in which case this guy is going to have to handle the Magic phase - I think a L2 with High Magic (for the +1 to cast) is your best bet there.

Noble - Given his bevy of nice mount options, my main suggestion is to have him riding something. In most lists, I'd go for the nice and safe Elven Steed (especially for a BSB), but in the Flying Circus, a Great Eagle or a Griffon may be in order.

Core

Archers - As far as these guys go, just keep them in the back (out of any serious trouble) and have them plink away with their arrows to try and clear chaff, or maybe even contribute to downing a real combat unit if it's debuffed. I would take advantage of Martial Prowess and go 3 ranks deep (so start at 15, and up them as high as you like). This is a good place to put Mages and other characters that you don't want in fights.

Ellyrian Reavers - Because their job description is basically to run around and be annoying until they die, I don't see myself advocating much investment in them. I'm not a fan of swapping spears for bows, and would only really consider either a Musician (to help with rallies) or the bow and spear (for a bit of versatility).

Lothern Sea Guard - Given that their calling card is versatility, pinpointing a preferred formation for these guys is a bit tricky. However, the consensus seems to be a couple of moderate-sized units (think 15-25 guys), which gives them the ability to shoot a bit to make people come to them, and be a passable fighter once combat has been joined.

Silver Helms - It's worth noting that 5 Silver Helms with no upgrades are pretty cheap, and they can take on most chaff units out there thanks to their sheer speed. That said, my preferred use for these guys is as a character bunker; 14 of them with something like a Noble or a Prince leading the charge has decent hitting power, good survivability, can break Steadfast, and satisfies a good part of your Core requirements.

Spearmen - My opinion on these guys is go big or go home - either you pack a block of 35+ that can either break Steadfast or drown people in a deluge of attacks (hopefully buffed so that they actually damage armored/tough troops), or you leave them on the shelf.

Special

Dragon Princes of Caledor - I see two basic functions for these guys; a minimum squad of "heavy chaff" who can just gum up enemy plans, jam flaming units, and kill the units attempting to do the same to you, and a character delivery system for some tooled-up fighters, probably with the Banner of the World Dragon, the Razor Banner, or the Rampager's Standard. Which you employ is determined by what you're short of otherwise.

Lion Chariot of Chrace - Personally, I would look to take advantage of Stubborn and jam troops who would have trouble slicing through T4 with a 4+ save (looking at you, Clanrats and Goblins), but they are still a Chariot, so they can still do most of what the others do (though it hurts more when they drop).

Phoenix Guard - Their great Ward saves means you don't usually have to spend that much on replacement bodies, so you can run these guys pretty close to the minimum you need. A more defensive unit is probably 25-30 fielded 5-wide, whereas an aggressive one will be 21 (7 x 3) and possibly rocking the Razor Banner.

Shadow Warriors - When it comes to these guys, I think that less is more - run multiple squads of the minimum, and see how much havoc they can wreak before your opponent gets tired of them.

Skycutter Chariot - I'm a big fan of the Bolt Thrower upgrade, as it gives them something to do in the turns they're not in combat, and a Bolt Thrower down the flank is a very painful experience for cavalry. With that in mind, I would recommend a couple of them, so that you can try the same trick on multiple flanks.

Swordmasters of Hoeth - In order to maximize their advantages as compared to units like White Lions and Phoenix Guard, I feel that smaller squads (so that those 2 base attacks matter) and a rather wide frontage (6 or 7 wide) is the way to do it.

Tiranoc Chariot - Try to smash them into something where the Impact Hits will be enough to get you the W, or combo-charge them with a block and have them try to provide positive CR. I'm not much of a fan of fielding them in units, so I won't recommend it.

White Lions of Chrace - Given that they are Stubborn and that they get really good mileage out of Martial Prowess, I think the lowest I would go is 21 (7 x 3 formation). If there's an elite choice in High Elves I can see in Horde formation, this is it. This is also a premium location to put fighting characters, particularly the Anointed of Asuryan.

Rare

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - Just one of these guys strikes me as a throwaway investment, so I'd advocate 2+, placed in the corners so they can maximize their threat area and force a committed effort to go after them. They're cheap enough to make that happen.

Flamespyre Phoenix - Given that multiple instances of Wake of Fire can be used to hit the same unit, I'd advocate taking 2 of them and hammering a unit of your choice with a bunch of Flaming hits over and over again.

Frostheart Phoenix - I think 2 of these guys is one of the best investments you can make in this army list, even if it does preclude some of the other combinations this section is capable of. The key note is that combat-oriented fliers need target saturation - one of them gets everything thrown at it, with 2+ the situation gets a bit more complicated.

Great Eagle - 2 units of 1 Eagle is what I'd go for here, and I'd recommend a thorough read of the previously linked tactica for a crash course on how to get good mileage out of them.

Sisters of Avelorn - How you use these guys depends on whether you have a Handmaiden in the unit - if you don't, I suggest you think of them more as artillery; sit in the back, pick a target, plink away at it. If you do, you can be a lot more aggressive; you can advance and shoot without taking penalties and can Stand & Shoot from any range, so being charged isn't as scary. Unit size also depends on the Handmaiden's presence; I'd stick to 10-15 without her, but I'd go higher if she's around.

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Last edited by rothgar13 on Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:51 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
Sample Army Lists

In this section, I have several army lists that I have come up with, based partly on my experience and on other people's successful lists. Feel free to use these as a base for your own army, or even to pick them up to learn the basics of High Elves.

Arrows of Avelorn - 2500 points

Core - 630 points
2 x 21 Archers, Musician, Standard-Bearer [Archmage goes in one of these]
2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows

Special - 726 points
14 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command (Banner of the World Dragon) [BSB goes here]
2 x Skycutter Chariot, Eagle Eye Bolt Thower

Rare - 518 points
4 x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
17 Sisters of Avelorn [Handmaiden goes here]

Heroes - 451 points
Handmaiden of the Everqueen, Charmed Shield, Potion of Strength, The Reaver Bow
Noble, BSB, Dragonhelm, Elven Steed (Ithilmar Barding), Heavy Armor, Luckstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Shield, Star Lance

Lords - 320 points
Archmage, Book of Hoeth, L4 Wizard, Talisman of Preservation [General, Lore of Shadow]

Grand Total: 2500 points

Defenders of Ulthuan - 2500 points

Core - 662 points
14 Archers, Musician [Archmage goes here]
2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers
14 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields [BSB goes here]

Special - 733 points
21 Phoenix Guard, Musician, Standard-Bearer (Razor Standard)
21 White Lions of Chrace, Full Command (Banner of the World Dragon)

Rare - 620 points
2 x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
2 x Frostheart Phoenix

Heroes - 165 points
Noble, BSB, Enchanted Shield, Elven Steed (Ithilmar Barding), Dragon Armor, Luckstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Shield, Star Lance

Lords - 320 points
Archmage, Book of Hoeth, L4 Wizard, Talisman of Preservation [General, Lore of Shadow]

Grand Total: 2500 points

Flying Circus - 2500 points

Core - 652 points
14 Archers [Mage goes here]
2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers
14 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields [BSB goes here]

Special - 240 points
2 x Skycutter Chariot, Eagle Eye Bolt Thrower

Rare - 580 points
2 x Frostheart Phoenix
2 x Great Eagle

Heroes - 508 points
Mage, Dispel Scroll, L2 Wizard [Lore of High Magic]
Noble, BSB, Armor of Destiny, Elven Steed (Ithilmar Barding), Lance, Shield
Noble, Enchanted Shield, Great Eagle (Shredding Talons, Swiftsense), Heavy Armor, Lance, Talisman of Preservation

Lords - 520 points
Anointed of Asuryan, Charmed Shield, Crown of Command, Frostheart Phoenix, Star Lance [General]

Grand Total: 2500 points

Legions of the Asur - 2500 points

Core - 647 points
2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
48 Spearmen, Full Command (Standard of Discipline) [Loremaster and Sea Helm go here]

Special - 724 points
24 White Lions, Musician, Standard-Bearer (Banner of Eternal Flame)
24 White Lions, Musician, Standard-Bearer (Banner of the World Dragon)

Rare - 620 points
2 x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
2 x Frostheart Phoenix

Heroes - 179 points
Lothern Sea Helm, Armor of Destiny, BSB, Bow

Lords - 330 points
Loremaster of Hoeth, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation [General]

Grand Total: 2500 points

Lionheart - 2500 points

Core - 672 points
4 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers [Archmage goes in one of these]
14 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields [BSB goes here]

Special - 714 points
24 White Lions of Chrace, Musician, Standard-Bearer
24 White Lions of Chrace, Musician, Standard-Bearer (Banner of the World Dragon)

Rare - 620 points
2 x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
2 x Frostheart Phoenix

Heroes - 154 points
Noble, BSB, Enchanted Shield, Elven Steed (Ithilmar Barding), Heavy Armor, Potion of Foolhardiness, Shield, Star Lance

Lords - 340 points
Archmage, Book of Hoeth, Elven Steed, L4 Wizard, Talisman of Preservation [General, Lore of Beasts]

Grand Total: 2500 points

The Pride of Chrace - 2500 points

Core - 630 points
3 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
15 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields

Special - 561 points
37 White Lions of Chrace, Banner of the World Dragon, Full Command [Characters go here]

Rare - 580 points
2 x Frostheart Phoenix
2 x Great Eagle

Heroes - 179 points
Lothern Sea Helm, Armor of Destiny, BSB, Bow

Lords - 550 points
Anointed of Asuryan, Potion of Toughness [General]
Archmage, Book of Hoeth, Fencer's Blades, Golden Crown of Atrazar, L4 Wizard [Lore of High Magic]

Grand Total: 2500 points

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Last edited by rothgar13 on Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:54 pm, edited 11 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:38 pm
Posts: 208
really nice so far, look forward to the rest

_________________
[i]The shadow of war is cast long in the dying light of peace.[/i]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 9:20 pm
Posts: 121
Location: Sylvania
Nice thread to have. Well done rothgar!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:17 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4471
Location: On the path of an outcast
Very good idea! I am looking forward to the rest. Keep up the good work! =D>

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:39 pm
Posts: 2062
Location: Cathy
Interesting concept but I think there's a flaw.
Some army list are created and revolves around your magic lore while others are created revolved around character (e.g Dragon Lord).
E.g If I were to go Heavens Mage my spell selection and pripority would be different to that of Dragon Lord army with Heavens support.
I've read some of the magic and I disagree with your assessment but I'll reserve anymore judge until I've seen the rest.

_________________
ETC WHFB Team Singapore
2014 - Chaos Dwarfs & Most Favoured Enemy
2015 - High Elves & Top HE

T9A
Highborn Elves - Army Book Committee
Balancing Board
Highborn Elves - ex-Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
Thanks for the encouragement and kind words, guys. Magic Analysis is up.

@pk-ng: This is something I will address later in the Handbook - my choice on how I have set things in order is somewhat arbitrary. Suffice to say, I will also do a unit review at some point (it's actually the next section), and that unit review will cover what units you should build around.

Though I will point out that your example is a bad one, because in uncomped Warhammer a Dragon-riding Prince is not a competitive choice at all, so you shouldn't be building around him, as per my disclaimer #2 at the top.

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:43 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4471
Location: On the path of an outcast
It would indeed be interesting to find out what is rationale behind each "color" (i.e. why particular spell got that color and not another, as it might be allocated differently by another player) . I am also curious how are you going to deal with the fact that spells and units are often treated in a vacuum while their abilities depend on the army and on the enemy at least. There are additional factors such as terrain and scenarios (if you play them) to consider too.

The challenge lies in finding a balance between what is a good tool and what is a good tool for a particular player in particular environment. It is even more important for "all-comers" list where you need to have something to deal with many different threats.

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
In general, my reviews are based on two factors: internal balance (how does a given choice stack up to other choices in the same category?), and external balance (how does a given choice advance the cause of the High Elf army)? For example, the spells in a given Lore are rated with "how often will you pick this spell when rolling for it? If you do so, how often will it be useful to cast?" in mind, which is how conditional (but potent) spells like Searing Doom end up with a Green, whereas fire-and-forget spells like Miasma get a Purple. The Lores themselves, however, are rated among their peers, as in "would I pick Lore X over Lore Y? If so, why? If not, why not?".

I hope that clears up where I'm coming from a bit, but suffice to say I will not be delving incredibly deep into how to make use of every single tool - I will instead point out which tools are easier or harder to use (with how much reward you get out of using them correctly as a tempering factor). If you feel that a given tool can be potent in a particular context and I'm not doing it justice, make sure to point it out to me, so that I can either include it in the writeup, or re-evaluate the context that you're describing and decide whether it's common enough to merit making a rating change.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:16 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4471
Location: On the path of an outcast
Thanks for explanation! There is no need for lengthy elaboration but it is always good to know where you are coming from and what you want to achieve. It is a challenging work you set yourself upon because obviously point of views differ among players (and often dramatically as we know too well :)).

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:39 pm
Posts: 2062
Location: Cathy
rothgar13 wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement and kind words, guys. Magic Analysis is up.

@pk-ng: This is something I will address later in the Handbook - my choice on how I have set things in order is somewhat arbitrary. Suffice to say, I will also do a unit review at some point (it's actually the next section), and that unit review will cover what units you should build around.


Will definitely have a read.

rothgar13 wrote:
Though I will point out that your example is a bad one, because in uncomped Warhammer a Dragon-riding Prince is not a competitive choice at all, so you shouldn't be building around him, as per my disclaimer #2 at the top.


I disagree with this point.
In 7th Edition even in uncomp environment Dragon Lord was competitve as proven by Dale Johnson coming 5th @ Adepticon with Dragon List.
8th Edition HE has just been out for 2 months and you already know it's not competitive?

_________________
ETC WHFB Team Singapore
2014 - Chaos Dwarfs & Most Favoured Enemy
2015 - High Elves & Top HE

T9A
Highborn Elves - Army Book Committee
Balancing Board
Highborn Elves - ex-Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
I have to tip my hat to Dale Johnson, then, because I would not even be taking a Dragon-riding Prince to my local tourneys (but then again, those are crawling with Ironblasters, Khannons, Terrorgheists, and Steam Tanks :lol:). And there's likely a hefty component of player skill involved there; after all, Mike Hengl was kicking butt with Slann-less Lizardmen last year, and that in no way invalidates that the Slann is the single best thing in that book. And you don't have to take my word for it - Mike said that himself when asked, he just wanted to do it for the giggles.

All right, perhaps non-competitive was a strong choice of words - I should have said it's much harder to be competitive with a Dragon-riding Prince than with a myriad of other choices (in fact, I think I'd take every single Lord choice over it). I don't know which Adepticon you're referencing (the latest, I assume?), but I can say that the new existence of the Frostheart Phoenix and the Anointed of Asuryan have knocked it down a peg on the internal balance meter, and I am very skeptical of its potency on the external balance meter to begin with. A Frostheart Phoenix outshines the Sun and Moon Dragons pretty handily, and the Star Dragon is too expensive to afford a full Prince kit with at 2500, which is critical. Suffice to say, I won't be recommending this route very highly.

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:33 am
Posts: 348
Location: Looking for a lost Asur expedition somewhere in the Old World
I agree with pk-ng. One of the high points of the new book is (IMHO) that you can choose loads of different approaches and there are very few actual choices that are unusable in competitive environment. Expect to get very different opinions here from those you will originally put down yourself. And as was suggested, some of those opinions will be spoken "loudly". :-) I myself have a bit different opinion on some things, but I will not trouble you with that until you are ready to receive this kind of information. I guess that right now you will be up to your neck with the "basic" review. Fingers crossed m8. I know how much work this entail so if you need someone to take care of some part of it, let me know through PM I can certainly write something for you to just edit.

_________________
My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
Quote:
"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
All right, I await your arguments, though expect to have to provide lots of evidence to convince me that a Dragon-riding Prince is anything but a gimmick/auto-loss to cannons. I'm open to the idea of a Flying Circus list, but to me that revolves around lots of Phoenixes and maybe a Noble on a Griffon.

By the way, my unit reviews are up for everything but the special characters. Feel free to leave me some feedback on those.

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:21 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6486
Location: The city of Spires
Good start and nice initiative so far. I'll see about getting it stickied.

I agree with your assesment of a dragon (unfortunatly, since I like them). The points increase of the stardragon and lack of items realy hurts that build, a lot. The moon dragon gets some big competition from an annointed on frostheart. And a sun dragon doesn't have the punch. Though I'm curious to try a sun dragon list as a "budget monster support unit". ButI don't think it's the strongest build out there and a bit situational.

What I disagree with is your assesment of the lore of life. Throne of Vines is the absolute must have spell in the lore. Without it, the rest of the spells (except for Dwellers) are sub-par. Their casting cost factors in throne.

Without throne, awakening is just plain useless. 18'' and D6 s4 hits doesn't do much. Flesh to stone is still nice. Shield is unimpresssive, on average 7 s3 hit is useless. It like an extra rank of spearmen attacks, and we already get more then enough of those. And Regrowth doesn't realy regrow many models and the fact that it doesn't work on characters and (especially) their mounts is a let down.

The downsides of life are then that disspelling priority is relatively easy. Dwellers and throne, the rest can be suffered. And there are 2 definite must have spells in the lore in throne and dwellers. Miss those and you're looking at a pretty useless magic phase. Miss one of them (too likely for a true all commers list in my mind) and you're stuck with a sub-par lore that makes dispelling easy for your opponent. And since we have no way to chose spells or even get extra spells, it's a big liability

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
As someone who has played with an army that has access to Lore of Life, but not Loremaster in Empire, I have to disagree with you here. Dwellers is the true must-grab spell, with Regrowth and Flesh to Stone bickering for second place. If you have that lineup, that's enough for you to be successful. You have to take the Lore Attribute into account when judging Life's casting values - it does what it says it does, and it heals a Wound. And while High Elves don't have targets that are quite as obvious (Steam Tanks and Demigryph Knights are positively filthy if you get to heal them/bring them back), keeping our elite infantry's numbers up so that Martial Prowess can be used to full effect on multiple turns is a big deal, and healing Phoenixes can be pretty great too. I concede that D3+1 guys isn't that much and I may be overrating the Lore a bit based on how brilliant it is for an army that's by and large a lot tougher, but I don't think it's bad.

Edit: I've been re-evaluating your statements, and I think that I'll lower the ratings on Flesh to Stone, Regrowth, and the Lore itself to Blue, and I think that more accurately reflects where it stands. What say you?

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 1:55 pm
Posts: 100
I don't think High Magic is as good as you do – definitely not a purple. There are a lot of direct damage spells that won't help you in close combat. Depending on your spell selections, you may end up with 3 out of 4 direct damage spells. Knowing that, an opponent will have an easier choice burning through their dispel scroll in turns 1 or 2, knowing they likely won't need it in turns 3 or 4 (usually the most critical close combat turns in my experience). The lore attribute is useful.

Most hex/buff spells last one turn. Yes, Drain Magic will dispel the effects of your opponent’s spells; however, in close combat, the enemy will still have had the effects for one combat turn. I’ve found, if things are going bad, a lot of T3, 5+AS infantry will die in that one combat turn, and things may have already been decided before removing the affecting spell. I think it is more useful when helping our ranged attacks.

We have a lot of shorter ranges in our High Magic spells. An extra 6” of range on our spells would really have helped. That being said, I agree with your rankings on Walk Between Worlds, Convocation, Hand, and Unforging. Apotheosis is very list dependant, and ties your big beasts closer to your mage. Tempest is okay for the casting cost.

In short, I agree with your specific spell ratings, but I think overall the lore is a blue or a green, depending on your list. The all purpose cohesion isn’t there for me in my lists – it is great early in the game, and fades in effectiveness in the midgame. The ranges and many direct damage types are noticeable and not always desirous. I think this lore works better for more of a ranged army than a close combat army. None of the spells are bad, but I think the lore gains power with a certain type of list – it isn’t as good as some of the regular 8 lores for all builds.

Just in my experience, buffs/hexes have won me more games than ranged attacks – but I tend not to use as much shooting as others. For us, I think Metal (at least a blue, including the AS reducer being a blue) and Shadow are more useful for an all comers POV, and I like Heavens (but haven’t tried it much with this version of High Elves). Life is good, but so dependent on the spells you roll. I agree with your points on Light, Fire and Death. Beasts is a great lore for us for three spells only, unless you go character heavy. I think High would have awesome with a L2 with the last book where we could have picked our spells with the Seerstaff, and had a L4 to cover the bases. As an aside, Comet is my favorite spell in the game - both for damage and board control. It might not be the most powerful, but it is useful for all six turns.

I completely agree with all of your High Elf items descriptions. The Starlance is one of those items where I am constantly thinking - Starlance vs. Sword of Might/Ogreblade/No AS Sword. Far less good than Giantblade, but 30 pts vs. 60. I think the Wayshard might be very good with archers and Shadow, but haven't tried it out.


Last edited by Toledo Inquisition on Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:59 pm
Posts: 138
In my experience, with the casting cost and the relative lack of fear of the spell, casting Flesh to Stone, even without Throne in play, and making some Elves in combat T5 is one of the best things a spell can do in the game.

At the same time, I have to say that my playing style in the magic phase highly favors spells with low casting costs, low fear factors, and long ranges. I don't want spells that require me to get IF for them to get through. I want to keep my opponent guessing as to which spell I'm really trying to get off and run him out of dispel dice. So to me the Loremaster is at least blue and so is the Lore of Fire - which has always been one of my favorite lores of the game. Whereas Purple Sun and Dwellers are spells that I have to get in range/position for, have to spend a lot of dice to make sure they get through, and might still get unlucky with the results, and this is assuming I roll them in the first place.

So I see the magic very differently from Rothgar. I'm getting a bit of a theoryhammer vibe from some of these assessments, and I know I was very suprised at how well the Loremaster did for me when I started running him. Theory seems to not always match experience.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
I am familiar with that sort of strategy, as I employ it to good effect with my Beastmen, but I don't necessarily feel that High Elves will approach the Magic phase the same way, barring a Loremaster (which would explain a lot, actually). The L4 will have a smaller spell selection, but a greater ability to force things through (and an awesome tool to fish for IF in the Book of Hoeth) - if it's me, I'd exploit that.

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
Just wanted to say that item reviews are finished, so the bulk of the legwork has been done. Only Unit Formations and Tactics and Sample Lists to go! :)

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 1:55 pm
Posts: 100
Great job, a lot of effort put in. I agree with 90% of what you have to the tee; other than what I wrote above, I just have a few minor point of view differences, nothing too major - mostly differences in play style like the Loremaster/Archmage someone pointed out.

The Armour of Caledor (2+, 6++) is the best AS a foot character can get, although for 50 points, that is debatable whether you'd want a 3+/4++ instead (Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation) which is my choice. Depends on if the ward is taken by a mage.

A Loremaster build I want to try is the Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone, Scroll. A 2+ AS, rerollable, 6++ WS (2++ vs. flames) is very defensive and would be able to sit at the edge of a true combat block with few worries (except for S7 or KB).

I'm interested in your thoughts on our mounts. Unfortunately the Star Dragon is a green/maybe yellow choice for me. I'm leaning more to a green, because usually you'll only take one cannon wound (half the dragon's total wounds) before engaging the enemy (if you are unlucky with terrain placement). With two cannons, one mathematically wil fail to hit/wound. When the opponent throws enough dice, on average one will turn your way. For my builds right now, I'm torn between Other Tricksters Shard and the Iron Curse Icon. Of course the OTS helps fighting, but the Icon will average a bit over 30% to stop one cannonball if two actually manage to wound you (1-5/6*5/6=30.6%).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
You bring up a good point - I probably should put up a little section for Mounts, given how large a role they play in the HE army. I have the Star Dragon at Yellow right now - he's great in combat, but just sooooo pricey. Dragons in general don't rate highly with me - the Sun Dragon is too wimpy, the Moon Dragon compares unfavorably to the Frostheart, and the Sun Dragon just costs too much.

I also read your comments on High Magic, and your concerns with regards to its range. These are valid points, but I'd like to see a few more voices chime in before I start re-evaluating my position and my rating of the Lore.

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
Hey guys, just wanted to point out that the Unit Formations and Tactics and Sample Army Lists entries are up. I'll do a quick once-over in the near future to smooth out any kinks (and add in the entries for the special characters) and will do my best to keep up with the meta, but for now, the first draft of the Handbook is off the ground - leave feedback at your leisure. :D

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:05 pm
Posts: 291
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Great handbook!! It was an interesting read, and my hat goes off to you for putting in all that effort. =D> =D>
One small thing I might have done differently relates to the Forbidden Rod
rothgar13 wrote:
Forbidden Rod - High Elf mages are too important (and expensive) to be getting axed like this.
I think it's worth something more than the lowest ranking, considering how well it pairs with Banner of the World Dragon
Keep up the great work, I'm looking forward to seeing how this handbook evolves as 8th edition continues


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 am
Posts: 182
Ooh, clever trick! I hadn't thought of that. I'll add that and change the rating.

_________________
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group