Pornography: Mens Pleasure or Womens Pain?

[Prince_Asuryan]

for the record, hatred for jews mainly came from the jews controlling the banks, because they could charge interest.

As an aside, this was not only annoying economically, it is also against the Catholic rules of religion. Usury - the charging of interest - was a sin.

[Loflar]

for the record, hatred for jews mainly came from the jews controlling the banks, because they could charge interest.

As an aside, this was not only annoying economically, it is also against the Catholic rules of religion. Usury - the charging of interest - was a sin.

Which is exactly the reason why Jews were doing it. In medieval, Jews, as Jesus' murderers etc., were not allowed to have honorable jobs, so they made living as usurers, alchemists, and so on. This, of course, contributed to their isolation. However, Keith also has a point. A self-supporting community which differs from majority is going to be viewed with suspicion. Back to the topic, Jews probably did not produce porn, Spanish did.

[Shadowelf]

Nailin' your wife easily the best Porn I've ever seen.

LOL how cool was jesse jane!

As for Science...it to is artocious, yet we accept it on a day by day basis. The testing of cosmetic chemicals on animals is abhorent (blistered eyes, destroyed lungs ect)..we accept it and the reason we accept it is because religion says that god placed man on earth and beneath him animals and plants. This is why religion hate darwinism, if we decended from animals, if we are animals, then god didn't place us here at all, at least not the way the bible said(not at all but I'm trying to be fair ). One could even argue that science functions as a religion anyway, worshiping "advancement" rather than a deity.
Back to porn, I haven't seen jewish porn, I'm not sure if there are jewish pornstars...shame on me for being so raceist, I'll go fix that now.....

[Loki17]

Which is exactly the reason why Jews were doing it. In medieval, Jews, as Jesus' murderers etc., were not allowed to have honorable jobs, so they made living as usurers, alchemists, and so on. This, of course, contributed to their isolation. However, Keith also has a point. A self-supporting community which differs from majority is going to be viewed with suspicion. Back to the topic, Jews probably did not produce porn, Spanish did.

The Torah does not allow Jews to charge interest to other Jews. However, it says nothing (if I remember correctly) about charging interests to Gentiles. Thus, by the Jewish faith, they were allowed to charge interest to gentiles, and found a niche in doing so.

[Musashi]

If I'm not mistaken, all three Abrahamic faiths are against profiting from other people's labours, but have figured out loop holes or just ignore it.

[EricJ]

The testing of cosmetic chemicals on animals is abhorent / .. / we accept it and the reason we accept it is because religion says that god placed man on earth and beneath him animals and plants.

Uh.. No. Speak for yourself.

How the hell did religion, science and random comparisons to Jews end up in a discussion on porn anyway?

[grantmepower]

Morality...

[Aerendar Valandil]

But racism still exists today and completely without religion being a factor. Why do some white christians hate black christians, ect.

There are many more sentiments that remain although the original root has changed. Even when secularized, many people keep having problems with sex outside marriage or homosexuality, for example, although for the latter a classical, much more liberal prcedent can be found in Ancient Greece, if we would pick cherries. But many people do not. They are unternalized beyond rational thought. This is why western civilization remains Judaeo-Christian, although it has been strongly secularized in some parts. Thast is not necessarily bad in many cases, but it is also exactly why prejudices, be they rooted in intrinsic loathing, interests or fear, renmain in place and are 'reinvented' with new explanations. Thus racist thought, its basis trembling through Enlightened thought, rerooted in a racial 'science' based on white superiority and (ethnic) nationalism, that was both based on and reinforced the status quo and former religious prejudice. It is no coincidence that the devious, greedy Jew as depicted in The Eternal Jew is not that far away from the classical jew in Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice - an Shakespeare is for his time relatively mild, as, however harch, the Merchant is depicted as harsh and vindictive through humiliation, and thus distincly human, and not as the child-murdering, virgin-abusing, blood-drinking, chist-crucifying usurer he has been depicted as in mainland Europe - not coincidentally exactly the same 'qualities' as Hitler alledged them to have. The line is unbroken.

To say that there wouldn't have been any racism towards Jews if it were not for religion is bogus. The Jews have a unique situation in being both a people and a religion.

Practically all anti-semitism befoe the 19th century was anti-jewish religion, not against anti-alledged jewish race. The 'solution' was conversion, not murder. When conversion wasn't enough - as in Spain - that was not from some sort of racist motive, but from the suspicion that Jews remainet covertly Judaic.

Only during the 19th century a 'scientific' racism occcurred, during which races were classified along external and alledged intrinsic qualities. Especially in the case of Jews, as said above, the codification of those 'qualities' were immediately rooted in previous prejudices, of which the religious was no small part. Perhaps the church didn't invent some of the prejudices, but by excommunicating a community as murderers of God, people are marked as so intrinsically evil, that it is only too easy to attribute mere and more evils to then: they were - by the Church - designated to be, if not the devil himself, at least his loyal followers, and it is only too easy to assume that for the followers of the devil no evil is below them. And with that, they became an perceived evil presence in medieval society, which both induced and justified percecution.

Keep in mind during the depression in Germany the Jews as a people didn't get his as hard as ethnic germans, or at least that is what the nazis were able to convince people of. They were viewed as outsiders. That person isn't a German, he's a Jew! That sort of thing. Consider the Gypsies, almost 1.5 million of them were also killed during WW2, most of them were christians. They, same as jewish people, are often seen as outsiders where ever they are. When you are motivating people based on nationalism, its easy to tell them their problems are because of these other people in their communities who leach off them rather than work with them, and true or not, maybe people would rather not blame themselves.

True, this mechanism works - but in the case of Jews, this sentiment was much, much older, stretching even beyond the 19th century. Hitler couldn't have done it alone, and het couldn't have done it without the pre-scientific, pertially religious root of antisemitism that had been present for 1500 years.

[Bron Baraz]

Back to porn, I haven't seen jewish porn, I'm not sure if there are jewish pornstars...shame on me for being so raceist, I'll go fix that now.....

Ron Jeremy?

[Prince_Asuryan]

The fact that a guy like that can be a porn star, Jewish or not, shows how anything can happen in that business

[Aryel]

For TimmyMWD's sake... this is a Godwin if I have seen one.

[Aerendar Valandil]

For TimmyMWD's sake... this is a Godwin if I have seen one.

Is it? Why?

[Rhawtir]

well as long as people don't get hurt doing it and as long as people have a chance, if they want to, avoid seeing it,
I really see no harm in it.
Speaking for myself I wouldn't really feel like being in a pornographic movie since I feel like the sex I have, and share with people I like, is something personal and something beautiful, and not something for strangers to stare themselves blind at.

I also tend to think that yes, it can be pretty miss-leading for to young people to be watching porn, since porn, is only a show.
It's just for amusement vallue, it doesn't have truth, or sense for that matter.
It's just what people ask for. A product, a painted glass window. It doesn't display how sex works or how people feel about it in general, so I firuge it could be pretty upsetting and confusing for someone who has themselves yet to experience any sexuall activity, and for that sake, even evolved to the stage that they are physically or mentally ready for it.

And in saying "mens pleasure" you just kind of put a value on the subject.
The social structure and "how things work" today are leaning towards the point that men would be more sexually interrested and have a bigger demand for sex, which is biologically insane.
Think of a species where only one of the genders liked to reproduce.. sounds like kind of a geneticall dead-end to me.
And sure, porn is dominated by media that is for male viewers mostly, but that is probably because of the nature of our society.
It hasn't always been so and nor will it always be so, so you could aswell have written
"people's pleasure or people's pain"

But on a side note, there should perhaps be more open discussions about the morality IN porn, and maybe start talking of the request of more non-gender oriented porn.

And again, I am very sorry for my spelling mistakes, but why do you think the net was born?

porn, porn, porn.

P.S and that show with those two scary guys called "bullshit" or whatever they call it.
I hate it. They are really just full of crap and most of the time they just keep repeating what most people already figured out for themselves by just keeping a slight grip of reality, and when they don't, they often just lie or talk.. bullshit, really.
D.S

[Aryel]

For TimmyMWD's sake... this is a Godwin if I have seen one.

Is it? Why?

Really? from pr0n to Hitler and the hate to jewish people in 4 pages?

[Keith]

For TimmyMWD's sake... this is a Godwin if I have seen one.

Is it? Why?

Really? from pr0n to Hitler and the hate to jewish people in 4 pages?

godwin's law requires and actual comparison to nazi's/hitler. I believe people were just using nazi's as an example, the main discussion point at that time was religions influence in racism. I don't think anyone was compared to nazi's at any point, someone just talked about the role of religion as a basis for the 19th century and 20th century racism towards Jews. So it isn't a Godwin... yet.

[Raneth]

Back to the subject: YAY PORN!

[Aerendar Valandil]

Back to the subject: YAY PORN!

I concur. Porn is a subject with far greater depth.

[DeMysteriis]

I'm jewish, but not religious (also we worked out I'm the second worst jew, after one with a fetish for nazi uniforms). Still not sure how you people got to talking about dem jews anyway. Two pages until someone denies the holocaust or drops some comment about a cabal of ban- OH WAIT

[Keith]

I'm jewish, but not religious (also we worked out I'm the second worst jew, after one with a fetish for nazi uniforms). Still not sure how you people got to talking about dem jews anyway. Two pages until someone denies the holocaust or drops some comment about a cabal of ban- OH WAIT

Everyone knows Jews finance porn to destabilize good christian marriages.

[Loflar]

The social structure and "how things work" today are leaning towards the point that men would be more sexually interrested and have a bigger demand for sex, which is biologically insane.

I don't think so. From biological point of view, male seeks females (as many as possible) who are likely to give birth to many children (and survive it). Female seeks a male who is able to feed and protect her and her children. Because for a considerable time period, she is going to be defenseless.

And again, I am very sorry for my spelling mistakes, but why do you think the net was born?
porn, porn, porn.

Global nuclear war. Arpanet was designed as a decentralized computer network able to transmit data even if its large part is destroyed.

[Aryel]

Global nuclear war. Arpanet was designed as a decentralized computer network able to transmit data even if its large part is destroyed.

Thanks to Voodoomaster's "hello kitty" pink panties we realised there are more important things than survival from a nuclear armageddon, and it's getting free and quick sexual gratification.

[Rhawtir]

Loflar, on the first note:

That is also kind of a sociologicall view of it, since it's up to date to think so, but if you look back at human history back to the 19th hundreds, female sexuallity was viewed as a little dangerous and something to be wary about.
My point being, sex is not only male pleasure, it isn't a male behaviour,it's a very natural and human behaviour, and I think most of the people who have ever had any sexuall relationships can support my claim that regardles of sex, people are just people, and want to get laid.

And hey, if there was a true competition for females as a result of a true lack of them, it would be very likely that males would screw as many as possible to get offspring, but since we're fairly equall in numbers, and fairly long lives, we are pretty evenly matched in the looking-for-mate-game.
otherwise, male human beings should have been attracted to all females, which is not the case (at least not for me ) and, if there was a lack of males, the other way around..
But anyway, I'm just sick of getting crap for the gender I was born into, and hearing people saying that I am something I am not, merely because I have one type of devise between my legs instead of another type.

Personally I think my values and my sexuall behaviour has developed, of course partly from my hormones and my genes, but also from just my life in general, as all my abilities and behaviours have.
I base this on that I wouldn't feel the need for having a cellphone if someone hadn't got the idea and created it and people would have found it usefull and blabla.
I think for most of the part, people are unwritten papers.
Porn, on the other hand, is most of the time scripted. Don't watch porn if you're not aware of that fact.
And don't look at wrestling not knowing that fact either.

and that second note;
I was joking, really ;P I know the story of the internet. (Partly, but good enough to know it didn't start with digital imaging)

[Loflar]

That is also kind of a sociologicall view of it, since it's up to date to think so, but if you look back at human history back to the 19th hundreds, female sexuallity was viewed as a little dangerous and something to be wary about.

Sure, but in that time sex was taboo and was only considered from (christian) religious point of view. Original sin etc.

My point being, sex is not only male pleasure, it isn't a male behaviour,it's a very natural and human behaviour, and I think most of the people who have ever had any sexuall relationships can support my claim that regardles of sex, people are just people, and want to get laid.

Yes. I just said that men want to get laid by a beautiful woman while women want to get laid by a man they can trust. We do not consciously think the way I pointed above, we just behave like that.
(Has anyone seen The Mating Habits of the Earthbound Human? )

male human beings should have been attracted to all females, which is not the case (at least not for me )

From that sociological point of view, I could argue that love bond is behavior developed to ensure stability of couple. Female tries to keep her male to ensure that he will care for her and male, after learning that this female is willing to have sex with him, while others have to be persuaded, tries to keep her for himself.

Personally I think my values and my sexuall behaviour has developed, of course partly from my hormones and my genes, but also from just my life in general, as all my abilities and behaviours have.

Of course, a lot of what we are comes from learning. But a lot of this learning is quite conservative. And it is usually easier to learn things for which there is inborn talent.

Porn, on the other hand, is most of the time scripted. Don't watch porn if you're not aware of that fact.

From what I have read, this is unfortunately often not true, or the script is very poor. No reasonable plot etc. That's why I prefer "higher" forms of entertainment.

I was joking, really ;P I know the story of the internet. (Partly, but good enough to know it didn't start with digital imaging)

Of course, I just couldn't resist to reply

[Rhawtir]

I still cannot heartedly agree with you, since I myself do not believe that feamles posses any greater beauty than males do.
Neither do I believe that females are less attracted to the beauty of males than males are to females.
I have to agree that in ages past, the protection of the new born and such was the very key to survival, but in a lot of countries these days this is not as crucial and lone mothers are often good at fending for themselves.

Therefore I don't think you can apply all the social behaviours of other mammals and earlier humans to us, even if we are almost identicall to them, since we are very much the times we live in.
If female reproduction was not out of gaining pleasure, social status or any other non-reproductive value then the use of preventive medicines would be unheard of among females since it would be impossible for their senses to comprehend the idea of getting laid but not getting children or staying together with the guy they just slept with.

And to state another example, I'de like to say that if now a human baby was to be raised by wolves, wouldn't this baby, as it grew up, believe itself to be a wolf?
And if our social behaviour was to slowly change in time, and the genders slowly becoming more like each other, isn't it possible also that our mating habits might have changed?

[Bron Baraz]

The fact that a guy like that can be a porn star, Jewish or not, shows how anything can happen in that business

The interesting/horrifying thing about porn is that no matter your age/shape/gender/etc., there _is_ a niche for you...!

On topic, I think it depends how you define 'harm' before answering whether 'pornography is harmful to society'. It's not going to create rapists out of service users, and it _seems_ to be relatively rare that its performers are coerced into working for it (possible exception of being economically compelled, but that's a problem that's not unique to porn), so there's little in the way of 'direct' harm.

It might affect users' attitudes, however - Rhawtir alludes to the idea that we're shaped by our environment and experiences as well as our genetics; if part of that shaping is, for example, seeing women being humiliated/made subservient to male desires...? It'd be odd if it didn't affect us at some level.

Obviously, not all porn casts one gender as being markedly subservient to the other, or similar dodgy messages; so porn itself wouldn't be harmful, only the attitudes it can tap into and transmit.

Which is quite a lot of theorising to go into for an hour of a few people humping other for money...

[Rhawtir]

Bron Baraz, of course it shapes us, that is why pornograpghy isn't suitable for those that have yet to develope their own sexuall behaviour.
If you're already pretty safe and settled in your sexuallity, you can atleast react by thinking "damn that's stupid", so I mean, you're not changed towards everything you see, feel or experience, you might get repelled and take distance from it.

My point was that it would be a pretty old fashioned view to think that only men had interrests and found pleasure in looking at pornographic media.
And that leads us to the point of what you think is humiliating, I mean.. The people that are doing this stuff might, or might not, think it to be right/wrong, but that we do not always know..
I mean, a lot of the guys in these videos and pictures might just go home, chatt with some friend and lay down on their bed and think "Am I that little of a human? Am nothing more..?"

Anyway I'm having a horrible inflamation in my eyes at the moment of writing this so I'de better quit..
Good night people

[DeMysteriis]

That is also kind of a sociologicall view of it, since it's up to date to think so, but if you look back at human history back to the 19th hundreds, female sexuallity was viewed as a little dangerous and something to be wary about.

Sure, but in that time sex was taboo and was only considered from (christian) religious point of view. Original sin etc.

My point being, sex is not only male pleasure, it isn't a male behaviour,it's a very natural and human behaviour, and I think most of the people who have ever had any sexuall relationships can support my claim that regardles of sex, people are just people, and want to get laid.

Yes. I just said that men want to get laid by a beautiful woman while women want to get laid by a man they can trust. We do not consciously think the way I pointed above, we just behave like that.
(Has anyone seen The Mating Habits of the Earthbound Human? )

male human beings should have been attracted to all females, which is not the case (at least not for me )

From that sociological point of view, I could argue that love bond is behavior developed to ensure stability of couple. Female tries to keep her male to ensure that he will care for her and male, after learning that this female is willing to have sex with him, while others have to be persuaded, tries to keep her for himself.

Woooooooooooow.

[Raneth]

It might affect users' attitudes, however - Rhawtir alludes to the idea that we're shaped by our environment and experiences as well as our genetics; if part of that shaping is, for example, seeing women being humiliated/made subservient to male desires...? It'd be odd if it didn't affect us at some level.

Obviously, not all porn casts one gender as being markedly subservient to the other, or similar dodgy messages; so porn itself wouldn't be harmful, only the attitudes it can tap into and transmit.

I've seen Sasha Grey do positively horrifying things to this one guy's testicles. Girl power!

[Loflar]

Neither do I believe that females are less attracted to the beauty of males than males are to females.
...
My point was that it would be a pretty old fashioned view to think that only men had interrests and found pleasure in looking at pornographic media.

I cannot comment on that. Some woman should. However, they seem not to be interested in this thread that much. Which seems to support the idea that men are more interested in porn then women.

I have to agree that in ages past, the protection of the new born and such was the very key to survival, but in a lot of countries these days this is not as crucial and lone mothers are often good at fending for themselves.

Yes, development now allows blending of traditional gender roles. But girls are still raised in knowledge that one day, they will be mothers, caring for their children and boys are told that when they grow, they will have to protect their family.

If female reproduction was not out of gaining pleasure, social status or any other non-reproductive value then the use of preventive medicines would be unheard of among females since it would be impossible for their senses to comprehend the idea of getting laid but not getting children or staying together with the guy they just slept with.

Evolution. Individuals, who find sex pleasurable, try to have it frequently. This increases probability of having children.

And to state another example, I'de like to say that if now a human baby was to be raised by wolves, wouldn't this baby, as it grew up, believe itself to be a wolf?

I am not sure if such things did not happen. And yes, in those cases the baby believed to be a wolf. (And no, I am not talking about Mowgli ) But I guess that if such a child survived long enough to seek mate, wolves would probably be considered unattractive. Plus, pack alpha would not allow it anyway.

And if our social behaviour was to slowly change in time, and the genders slowly becoming more like each other, isn't it possible also that our mating habits might have changed?

As an example, we can look at various cultures. There are differences in courting rites, for example, but basic criteria for partner selection stay the same worldwide.

Woooooooooooow.

And I have not even used all keys on my keyboard.

[Bron Baraz]

Bron Baraz, of course it shapes us, that is why pornograpghy isn't suitable for those that have yet to develope their own sexuall behaviour.
If you're already pretty safe and settled in your sexuallity, you can atleast react by thinking "damn that's stupid", so I mean, you're not changed towards everything you see, feel or experience, you might get repelled and take distance from it.

I agree that if you see something and it doesn't appeal, yes, you file it under S for Stupid and that'll largely be the end of it; but I don't think we ever stop learning, developing, and responding to our experiences and environment. If you're exposed to something enough, particularly if you enjoy it, it will (so the theories go) have an effect on your attitudes regardless of your age (though obviously some stages of development are much more 'sensitive' than others).

My point was that it would be a pretty old fashioned view to think that only men had interrests and found pleasure in looking at pornographic media.

Agreed; it's (much!) rarer for women to do so, but some do. It's likely as much a cultural/societal taboo as much as anything hardwired in the genes... which brings us back to:

And that leads us to the point of what you think is humiliating, I mean.. The people that are doing this stuff might, or might not, think it to be right/wrong, but that we do not always know..
I mean, a lot of the guys in these videos and pictures might just go home, chatt with some friend and lay down on their bed and think "Am I that little of a human? Am nothing more..?"

I don't think it's particularly contentious to suggest that there's a subset of porn that deals in the spectacle of humiliating a performer in order to give the audience its thrills. I'd go into gory (or... well, bodily fluids can be involved, at least...) details, but I don't wanna be modded away!

I could be clearer though, I'm not talking about the humiliation/pscyhological impact on the performers, but the audience, those who watch it. OK, it's not going to make us all go out and do xyz, but theoretically, our experiencing of them is affecting the way we perceive and respond to the world and other people.

*From my limited experience, actors of any kind do all kinds of weird stuff for their 'art' without it really bothering them; my wee brother's an actor, and I've seen him wearing 3 layers of heavy woollen coats outside on a hot summer's day for street theatre, crawling about on all fours blindfolded pretending to be a donkey onstage, and get pelted with some sort of foamy stuff before being dunked in water at a fair thing. Just another job to him! I daresay it's a similar situation for most porn actors; but something to look into, I guess.*