20 years

[DeMysteriis]

How hasn't this got a thread already?

[NoOoDLe]

*swallows sick joke and nods in silent memoriam of an event he was not around for yet*

[Bob of Beleriand]

One should educate one's self of what happened during that 'conflict'; both prior and following. To even consider a sick joke to swallow is quite frankly appalling.

[Prince Eldarion]

Those who stood to make a difference will never be forgotten.
For democracy!

[Andruillius]

How hasn't this got a thread already?

'

Maybe because things haven't changed much since then.

[EricJ]

Those who stood to make a difference will never be forgotten.

Oh, in China they will be. The Chinese state censorship, aka Great Firewall of China, makes certain only "approved" stories reach the news. Independent news channels, and indeed the many social networks such as Facebook, YouTube and Twitter, are regularly blocked in China, especially on dates such as this.

That picture appearing on this website pretty much guarantees Ulthuan as another name on that blacklist, atleast for now.

[Loflar]

Those who stood to make a difference will never be forgotten.
For democracy!

According to this article, these protests were not for democracy. The students allegedly protested about many issues (corruption, protectionism, human rights, etc.), some of which can be intepreted as pro-democratic. But it was not the case of students saying "we don't want this system, we want democracy".

Based on what I remember from our "revolution", I am inclined to believe it.

[Keith]

Those who stood to make a difference will never be forgotten.
For democracy!

According to this article, these protests were not for democracy. The students allegedly protested about many issues (corruption, protectionism, human rights, etc.), some of which can be intepreted as pro-democratic. But it was not the case of students saying "we don't want this system, we want democracy".

Based on what I remember from our "revolution", I am inclined to believe it.

People are not often willing to bring about revolution to change the style of government, merely for the sake of it. The colonies that became the United states merely wanted their full rights as BRITISH citizens. They were bring oppressed and taken complete advantage of and had little to no legal resource to remedy the situation. That is why the revolution happened, not 'yay democracy'. Sure there are always a few idealists who have these notions of how things should be run, but you aren't going to motivate people to go to war with cries of 'Hey, lets try this one out, i think it is better!!!'

Often things are just terrible and people want something/anything else. That is why a lot of times one dictator is just replaced by another.

[Musashi]

China hasn't really changed in five millenia. To understand China, you have to understand what an ordinary Chinese citizen wants.

[Madeline Merri]

It's funny, because it's rare when a topic is posted here, and it coincides with something in your local life. I was walking down the street in Toronto, and there was a large poster pasted up on a large piece of vacant wall space, commemorating the scene involved as twenty years ago. There were students passing by on their way to the TTC (Streetcars), who, when they saw the iconic image on the screen, started to speak of the importance of that moment, with little knowledge as to exactly what happened during that point in time. Many of them are like this website, they have different interpretations as to what it means to them.

In that way - that photograph and video is one of the best forms of artwork in the modern era. You have a stark image that conjures up many feelings inside of you, as well as wanting to spark you to consider what goes on in your locality. As for the children who don't necessarily know the whole story, there is perhaps just as much value in admiring the image for it's pure aesthetic quality, as there is understanding the context behind it.

Anything in this world that can make you want to reconsider how you want to live, and inspire you to make good choices both in government and socially, it's a good thing. So for me - it's hard to fault the people for not having all the facts, when all that is needed is for the populace to keep reminding themselves, reminding each other that certain things hold much more importance than they realize.

-Maddo

[Raukov]

China hasn't really changed in five millenia. To understand China, you have to understand what an ordinary Chinese citizen wants.

You are incredibly wrong and this is a pretty racist blanket statement, hth

[Loflar]

China hasn't really changed in five millenia. To understand China, you have to understand what an ordinary Chinese citizen wants.

For yet another perspective, I have recently read this article. Unfortunately, it is only in Czech, so I will briefly summarize it (since I am too lazy to translate it all, and then I would have to explain included references to Czech political scene.

It is written by a man who claims to have spent 15 years in China, living there with his Chinese wife. According to him, witnesses of the massacre say, that big part of those people on Tian an men was "village rabble", which has spent a week on the square with inadequate hygienic provisions, not enough food and without any program. And there was a lot of them, the square is big (imagine several football stadiums). So they were living there, getting more and more angry, surrounded by some soldiers to keep an order, at the beginning without weapons. When the mob killed several soldiers, Chinese government decided to disperse it by force. Chinese today consider it a choice of lesser evil - if the mob was not dispersed, situation might escalate to violence all over the city and possibly to armed revolt, and no one wanted that.

Regarding democracy, Chinese generally do not care. As long as they can safely live in prosperous country, they do not really care about elections. They say that they live in a "special flavour" of socialism (one which would probably make Marx and Engels sick). When someone starts about democracy, he is usually viewed as subversive element, possibly serving interests of USA. And they know how such turning to democracy often develops, like in some South American countries.

Personally, I am not sure if I should believe all of this or not, but I think that it is worth considering.

[Ramesesis]

So, Raukov comes forth brandishing the "racist stamp". Your ability to debate and argue are getting weak, KIYO!!!

That was such an unnecessary and inproductive comment that I am really sad.

China is not that different from Imperial China. It is back in old patterns. After being closed up, as during the late Ming and Manchu dynasties, open for a while, then closed again during Mao, and now slowly opening up and taken a greater role on the world scene, as they did before the mid 15th century.
But at heart it is still an Imperial system, ruled by an chosen "Emperor" and his supporting caste of "Mandarins".
It works efficiently as it has done before.

But it is sad no one have reacted, but Tienamen square will live on. That image alone, of a lone man braving a tank, whose driver just can bring himself to run him over is iconic.

[cidracin]

That picture appearing on this website pretty much guarantees Ulthuan as another name on that blacklist, atleast for now.

Are you serious Ulthuan could be blocked in China for just one small thread?

[Prince Eldarion]

That picture appearing on this website pretty much guarantees Ulthuan as another name on that blacklist, atleast for now.

Are you serious Ulthuan could be blocked in China for just one small thread?

It's happened in the past to other sites but theirs only one way to be sure.
Anyone posting from china?