ASF vs ASL+ASF, Do I get re-rolls?

[afterglow82]

One of my ASF units in combat with my opponent's DE ASF unit, and I flank charge with a Frostie.

My argument is that ASL from the blizzard rule cancels out his ASF, so, with my ASF, I should get my re-rolls to hit.

His argument is that whilst ASL cancels out his ability to hit at Initiative, he still does have ASF, even if its effects are negated, so therefore because we both have ASF I don't get my re-rolls.

This has probably been discussed before, but I cant find it anywhere, so if someone could let me know what the decision was I'd appreciate it

[SpellArcher]

Most play that you get the re-rolls but not everyone agrees.

[John Rainbow]

If you are interested in reading more threads on this there are lots linked in the Ulthuan FAQs:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=43630

[Gregtheslacker]

The long and short of it is that nobody gets re-rolls in these situations except the DE for the first round. The ASF is not removed, but they still have hatred. The phoenix doesn't remove their ASF, it just adds ASL, making the unit strike on initiative instead. If both units have ASL, everyone strikes on initiative.

This is the way DE players have played it with me when attacking my Swordmasters, who have both ASL and ASF. The DE player only gets rerolls in round 1 because of the hatred.

[SpellArcher]

Depends on your TO, gaming group or regular opponent.

I'm playing an event soon where the HE's re-roll. At my last event they didn't. For both events I've got a ruling beforehand. The bigger issue is Great Weapons and it really pays to know before you sit down to play.

[pk-ng]

The long and short of it is that nobody gets re-rolls in these situations except the DE for the first round. The ASF is not removed, but they still have hatred. The phoenix doesn't remove their ASF, it just adds ASL, making the unit strike on initiative instead. If both units have ASL, everyone strikes on initiative.

This is the way DE players have played it with me when attacking my Swordmasters, who have both ASL and ASF. The DE player only gets rerolls in round 1 because of the hatred.

wrong.
answer is there is no answer. it can be argued both ways. ask your TO or houserule it.

[Sackree]

I play that I get the rerolls, my phoenix guard can reroll against executioners or any elves opponent that my frosty has slammed into, and other elves reroll to hit against my white lions and swordmasters.

The way me and my group read it is that the rules cancel each other out, then they need to apply anymore until they become relevant again.

[Prince of Spires]

answer is there is no answer. it can be argued both ways. ask your TO or houserule it.

This is the right answer indeed. It can be (and has been) argued both ways.

FWIW, I believe you do get rerolls. Re-rolls and striking first are part of the same rule. You can't get rerolls if you don't get to strike first. The re-rolls is an addition to the going first part.

Which also means that it leads to very silly situations when you have a multisided combat with units that have only ASF, ASF+ASL and neither of those. It's much easier to simply conclude that ASF+ASL means you benefit from neither rule and thus ASF units strike first against you.

Rod

[wisetiger7]

answer is there is no answer. it can be argued both ways. ask your TO or houserule it.

This is the right answer indeed. It can be (and has been) argued both ways.

FWIW, I believe you do get rerolls. Re-rolls and striking first are part of the same rule. You can't get rerolls if you don't get to strike first. The re-rolls is an addition to the going first part.

Which also means that it leads to very silly situations when you have a multisided combat with units that have only ASF, ASF+ASL and neither of those. It's much easier to simply conclude that ASF+ASL means you benefit from neither rule and thus ASF units strike first against you.

Rod

+1000 to both pk and rod.
-1000 to GW for writing such crappy rules.

[John Rainbow]

I am in agreement with the others i.e. unclear on how it works.

I will also add that every event I've ever been to has ruled that you get the rerolls. Which I personally believe is RAI.

[Ildrahir]

ETC FAQ:


7.15. Q: Can Always Strike First models re-roll to hit against units with both ASF and Always Strike Last? Does a single ASL cancel any amount of ASF and vice versa?
A: Yes. Yes.

[pk-ng]

ETC FAQ:


7.15. Q: Can Always Strike First models re-roll to hit against units with both ASF and Always Strike Last? Does a single ASL cancel any amount of ASF and vice versa?
A: Yes. Yes.

From an objective pov this is one way to do it. This is ETC FAQ not GW FAQ. I would suggest you ask TO / house rule. Or you can take a look at multiple FAQs and get a consensus.
SCGT FAQ
Swedish Comp FAQ
ETC FAQ (as above).
Whatever big tournaments

[Careck]

This is kind of related: if I have my SMs go into close combat against a vampire lord, do we both have ASF or is my ASF negated by the GWs and the vampire lord goes first?

[pk-ng]

SM attack at I order
Vampire (assuming have Quickblood) goes first.
Whether the vampire get re-rolls is up to you guys.
I play yes the vampire gets re-roll.

[Ladril Caledor]

To me the rulebook is clear on this issue. ASL cancels ASF and neither take effect. Therefore if you have ASF and your opponent has both ASF and ASL, you get the reroll, as long as your initiative is equal or higher. Wording of the rules, spirit of the rules, major tournament faqs, and the vast majority of people on both Ulthuan and other forums all seem to agree on this.

[manveruppd]

I'm sorry but this is one of few areas where the rulebook is unambiguous! BRB p. 66 "If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative."
The bit in bold (emphasis mine) is the crucial bit: it clearly states that the two rules cancel each other out, not merely their "always strikes first/last" effects. You are therefore treating the model as if it has neither rule.

If the wording had instead been "If a model has both this rule and ASF, the model strikes in Initiative order", then things would be different: the model strikes in Initiative order not because it has neither rule, but because the ASL rule specifies that it strikes in I order when it also has ASF. Both ASF and ASL still apply, and therefore other ASF models would not get rerolls when attacking it.

This is a case where they tried too hard for clarity and gave some people scope to misread the rule. If that sentence had simply read "If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies," omitting the last phrase, everyone would have understood that the model would strike in Initiative order anyway, cause that's what you do with models that have neither ASF nor ASL. But because they decided to explain "so use the model's Initiative," it drew attention away from the crucial bit ("the two cancel out"), and created scope for misunderstanding. (Such as "oh it specifies you strike in I order but presumably THE OTHER aspects of ASL&ASF still apply") This is a wrong interpretation. If you look at it grammatically, the phrase "the two" can only refer to the special rules ASF&ASL themselves, not just their "always strikes first/last" effects.

[pk-ng]

To me the rulebook is clear on this issue. ASL cancels ASF and neither take effect. Therefore you get the reroll, as long as your initiative is equal or higher. Wording of the rules, spirit of the rules, major tournament faqs, and the vast majority of people on both Ulthuan and other forums all seem to agree on this.

If it was clear we wouldn't have this discussion.

[Ladril Caledor]

I see now that my previous post may have been unclear, as the 'therefore you get the rerolls' was a direct response to the situation in the first post of the topic, not a statement that always applies. I've edited my post to make that clearer.

The rulebook clearly states that ASF cancels ASL. So an ASF vs ASF and ASL situation is the same as an ASF vs regular situation. Therefore in an ASF vs ASF and ASL situation, the former strikes first and gets re-rolls. Ulthuan's compilation of organized play rulings agrees with this:

Q: When a model with ASF attacks a model with both ASF and ASL, can they re-reroll to hit?
A: Most events sampled say "yes".
Quote:
"Yes." Tournaments in Australia. -Sandstorm
"Yes". South Coast Grand Tournament 2014
"Yes". ETC FAQ 2014
"Yes." US Masters FAQ 2014

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=63297

While I personally can't see how anyone could interpret it any other way, it seems there are plenty of people who do. I think manveruppd hit the nail on the head, the 'so use the models initiative', which was added to emphasize that the two special rules cancel each other out, has created this scope for misunderstanding.

So I agree with what others have said, the best thing is to clear up the interpretation of the rule before the game or tournament begins. It may help to show the rule exactly as it appears in the rulebook, and provide evidence of major tournament rulings.

[Loriel]

I personally would interpret the rules that you get Re-Rolls, but I can understand the main point reroll denyers have.

To get this idea even further what happends when you get ASF + ASL + ASL (from gw and from frostie for example) or ASF + ASF + ASL (for example bironas timewarp). Player like me would be inclined to allow regaining ASF with birona or forcing truly ASL from frostie as our interpret means that the model doesn't have the rule anymore.

Person that would deny rerolls can argue again that since you cannot claim same special rule twice great weapon elves cannot never be reduced to truly ASL.

GW GW. Stop publishing new end of times rules and update faqs...