Challenges

[rking300]

How does this work? say a big block of palugebearers with champion and a herald, and a single daemon price all charge my block of silverhelms. I have a prince in my silverhelms, they do not challenge however I do.
The champion and the herald can be sent to the back for denying a challenge however the daemon price cannot since he is by himself.
Can the daemon player decline the challenge since his herald and champion can be sent back or can he not decline since his daemon prince has no where to go?
thanks,

[Domine Nox]

He should be able to decline as he does have characters that you can send to the back, and you would have to pick from 1 of them. That's my interpretation.

[John Rainbow]

Champion does not go the back for refusing a challenge. They don't have any negatives for refusal.

[Dalamar]

Demon Prince has nowhere to hide, has to accept challenge.

[Domine Nox]

But the other characters do have somewhere to hide, and only 1 character is penalized for refusing. So why does that force the DP into accepting?

If all it takes is a single model to not have somewhere to hide, despite other options, that's an interesting thing to know.

[Dalamar]

That is the sole reason why solo charactera often charge in together with a unit containing a champion. So the champion can accept the inevitable challenge and character can rack up wounds.

[rking300]

The nowhere to run nowhere to hide rules states the following.
A character cannot refuse a challenge if his model cannot be placed so that he is not in base contact with an enemy model- he cant evade his opponent and so must fight for his life. This most commonly happens if a lone character is the subject of a challenge, of if his unit is small and engaged on all fronts, so that every model in the unit is in base contact with an enemy.

I dont care either way I jsut want to know what people think so we can play it correctly. He has two characters that can refuse and be sent to the rear and 1 that cannot.....he gets to choose who goes tot he rear however the DP cannot go so does that mean he cant refuse?

[SpellArcher]

As said, a champion isn't a character and can never be sent to the back.

I agree with Dalamar here. A character is only sent to the back if no-one steps forward to accept the challenge. The DP has to do so here (unless the champ or Herald choose to take it up) hence the default result is he accepts and the Herald can't be sent to the back.

I can see Domine's PoV but I think the way it's written you first consider whether any character is forced to accept. Only if this isn't the case do you then move on to sending someone to the back.

[Dalamar]

A character cannot refuse a challenge if his model cannot be placed so that he is not in base contact with an enemy model- he cant evade his opponent and so must fight for his life. This most commonly happens if a lone character is the subject of a challenge, of if his unit is small and engaged on all fronts, so that every model in the unit is in base contact with an enemy.

It's all right here.

Can the champion refuse challenge? - yep, with no repercussions
Can the Herald refuse challenge? - yep, he'll be sent to the back
Can the Demon Prince refuse challenge? - nope, he has nowhere to go.

Since there is a model that cannot refuse a challenge, the challenge has to be accepted by someone.

[John Rainbow]

A character cannot refuse a challenge if his model cannot be placed so that he is not in base contact with an enemy model- he cant evade his opponent and so must fight for his life. This most commonly happens if a lone character is the subject of a challenge, of if his unit is small and engaged on all fronts, so that every model in the unit is in base contact with an enemy.

It's all right here.

Can the champion refuse challenge? - yep, with no repercussions
Can the Herald refuse challenge? - yep, he'll be sent to the back
Can the Demon Prince refuse challenge? - nope, he has nowhere to go.

Since there is a model that cannot refuse a challenge, the challenge has to be accepted by someone.

+1 I'm with Dalamar too.

[Dalamar]

Now keep in mind an interesting change from previous edition.

Before, a model refusing a challenge had to be moved to the back rank.
Now the same model has to be moved away from base to base contact.

So if you have a wider formation than the enemy and refuse challenge, you can move your model to the edge of front rank, as long as he's out of base contact over there.

Or if you're surrounded on all 4 sides, but have deep enough formation, you can move that model to the center of the unit where he's safe from scary challengers.

[Curu Olannon]

A character cannot refuse a challenge if his model cannot be placed so that he is not in base contact with an enemy model- he cant evade his opponent and so must fight for his life. This most commonly happens if a lone character is the subject of a challenge, of if his unit is small and engaged on all fronts, so that every model in the unit is in base contact with an enemy.

It's all right here.

Can the champion refuse challenge? - yep, with no repercussions
Can the Herald refuse challenge? - yep, he'll be sent to the back
Can the Demon Prince refuse challenge? - nope, he has nowhere to go.

Since there is a model that cannot refuse a challenge, the challenge has to be accepted by someone.

+1 I'm with Dalamar too.

+2

[Prince of Spires]

Dalamars solution is probably the easiest and cleanest.

However, it should be noted that the actual rules are written in such a way that they only consider the situation where there is only 1 unit on each side fighting in the combat. A situation where there are 2 or more units on one side of the fight and where there is a character who can and a character who can't be moved out of B2B contact is simply not considered. Which is what gives the confusion.

Of course, the solution is easy enough. Just accept the challenge with the unit champion...

Rod

[pk-ng]

Dalamar is correct.

[finreir]

Simples no where to hid the demon prince must accept challenge. And don't keep saying to the back that is 7 th ed rules in 8th it's out of combat does not have to be the back