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Does Hatred: High Elves mean all models in our Army Book?
Yes 70%  70%  [ 19 ]
No 30%  30%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 27
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 Post subject: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:44 am 
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In reaction to Druchii.net's Dark Elf FAQ, I was wondering what the opinions are here on Ulthuan: Do Dark Elves hate all our models, including Phoenixes, Eagles and lone Dragons, or just Elves?
I have an opinion but will not present it here. It was discussed here already and is being discussed in this thread on Warhammer Forum, here I am more inerested in individual opinions than reasoning.

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:56 am 
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I have always liked it when the rules reflect the fluff. As a phoenix and eagle isn't actually a high elf I had to vote no. I dont have a problem with DEs hating our monsters from a game perspective though and I won't bother arguing the matter during a game. Although I do think that GW should have written "hate all models from the warhammer armies: High Elves" if that was the RAI.


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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:01 am 
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My personal feeling is that because the rule is written as "Hatred (High Elves)", unlike Valour of Ages which is "models from Warhammer: Dark Elves", Dark Elves shouldn't get hatred rerolls when allocating attacks against our Monsters and Eagles. Unfortunately this isn't the prevailing altitude at my FLGS, mainly because the local Dark Elf player is something of rules lawyer and was prepared to argue longer then I was.


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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:36 pm 
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Personally I think this applies to whole of our book. I don't see why the DEs hatred of the HEs wouldn't extent to the whole army and whoever is allied with them at the time i.e. Frost Birds, etc. HEs had dragons fighting with them against the Druchii and there are certainly a bunch of references in both army books to how much the DEs hate our dragons too. They covet whatever we have so why not just hate everything?


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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:33 pm 
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Just a quick question to those who would rather see Hatred (High Elves) affect non-monsters only.

Where in the high elf (or dark elf for that matter) book is a definition of what is a high elf?

We can all use common sense and figure it out, but the rules don't specify what is a high elf and what is not a high elf.


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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:09 pm 
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I think this is relevant here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgIBG8q1Gjc

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:32 pm 
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I voted that DE should get hatred against every unit listing in the HE book. It just doesn't make sense that our vile cousins would stop and say, "Show me your ears first, so that I may adjust the fury of my attack!" We should just expect it, plan for it, and play the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:35 pm 
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Dalamar wrote:
Where in the high elf (or dark elf for that matter) book is a definition of what is a high elf?
Whatever in the book that has (pointy) ears. It must be in there somewhere. Dragons, Eagles and Phoenixes have no visible ears at all. :twisted:

Edit: It seems Bolt Thrower was quicker. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:02 pm 
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WYSIWYG/TLoS suggests that the ear method wouldn't hold true for most helmeted elves ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:35 pm 
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Then the Dark Elf must ask him- or herself: 'Is it in HE army?' If yes, then: 'Does it have wings?' If it does, it is most likely not a High Elf.
I will stop at that. I should stop myself before posting any of these comments and keep a straight face, but it was too tempting.

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:41 pm 
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Ptolomy: Proving the exception to every rule ;)

http://s931.photobucket.com/user/jmalva ... 8.jpg.html

(I know your dark elf was a cautious sort who actually assumed that the presence of wings only probably discounts their opponent as being an elf :wink: )

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:46 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
Ptolomy: Proving the exception to every rule ;)

http://s931.photobucket.com/user/jmalva ... 8.jpg.html

=> The Ear Rule applies.

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:10 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
Ferny wrote:
Ptolomy: Proving the exception to every rule ;)

http://s931.photobucket.com/user/jmalva ... 8.jpg.html

=> The Ear Rule applies.



But what if at that particular moment his luscious hair was covering them?!


I voted that the Dark Elves should hate the entire army. Its silly that they wouldn't hate our monsters and other things. They hate everything High Elves stand for and anyone who supports them. Plus, it simplifies the game, and keeps rules arguments down.

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:19 pm 
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Malossar Dragonborne wrote:
But what if at that particular moment his luscious hair was covering them?!

'For High Elves, long hair is a symbol of strength, power and nobility - clearest token of a real warrior.' HE army book, p. 36.

I'll have to take mu earlier words back it seems.

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:35 am 
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What it means is irrelevant. It obviously has to be played as all entries in the book as nothing else makes sense without additional provisos injected on behalf of the player.

I mean...if something had Hatred (Tomb Kings) would we really play it as just the "Tomb King" Lord choice from that book? Or how about since it says "High Elves" that we only apply the rule when multiple High Elves are present in a single unit since it's plural.

We just have to cowboy up and face it...their rule against us is better than our rule against them. Its been that way for as long as I can remember.

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Last edited by Ptolemy on Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:54 am 
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It's only been better in 7th and 8th ;)
In 6th Dark Elves hit like a bunch of wet noodles and hitting more didn't make any difference.
In 5th Dark Elves had an actual animosity against High Elves. At the start of each turn on a roll of a 1, each unit that rolled it would have to march full speed ahead towards the nearest High Elf unit and charge if possible...


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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:30 am 
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Dalamar wrote:
Just a quick question to those who would rather see Hatred (High Elves) affect non-monsters only.

Where in the high elf (or dark elf for that matter) book is a definition of what is a high elf?

We can all use common sense and figure it out, but the rules don't specify what is a high elf and what is not a high elf.


We played Dwarfs hating green skins for almost 15 years without dwarfs hating trolls or boars, or wyvrens, I think we all know what a High Elf is. A Phoenix or Eagle cannot be a elf.

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:06 am 
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Well the banner of endless whines gives dragon princes stubborn....right? If a model had hatred (TOMB KINGS is it somewhat different than hatred "Tomb Kings." Still. to my mind a bird is not an Elf. No matter what I think the rules should be or was intended to be a Dragon prince is not a dragon and a dragon is not an elf.

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:43 am 
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@ hewhorocks, this is not about Dragons and Princes. 'Dragon Prince' is not 'dragon'. That is quite clear to everyone, I am sure. But the poll here is about whether or not the rule 'Hatred: High Elves' points to the 'High Elf army' as a whole, or just 'Elves that happen to reside on Ulthuan'. And here it is not at all as clear cut as you put it. The Army Book is called 'Warhammer: High Elves', and as we all know and accept, there are other things than just elves in there. In reflection of aforementioned discussions, I was wondering how people tend to read it, which is the whole purpose of this poll.

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:29 am 
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Just thought that maybe [high] elves are actually defined in the rule book in relation to ASF and Druchii non-hatred etc? Not that it helps with the OP, but it is a way to avoid the ear test :P

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 Post subject: Re: Hatred: High Elves
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:57 am 
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Ferny wrote:
Just thought that maybe [high] elves are actually defined in the rule book in relation to ASF and Druchii non-hatred etc? Not that it helps with the OP, but it is a way to avoid the ear test :P
Valour of Ages or Martial Prowess special rule would be a good indicator, but where is the fun in it? :)

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