High magic wards and MR

[richiefuzz]

A unit of Phoenix guard have a High Magic mage in the unit and have MR1 from either a character or the banner from the brb.
As the ward is capped to 3+ assuming the mage cast a spell what is the units ward save against magic? Is it 3+ as the high magic boost cannot make it better than that or is it 2+ as the lore attribute boosts ths ward to the 3+ then the MR is added?
Sorry if this has been asked before but new to the army!
Thanks

[pk-ng]

2++
As the ward is already upgraded as you would of casted a spell before your enemy's magic phase.

Edt: Grammar.

[NexS]

2++
As the ward is already upgrade as you would be casted a spell before your enemy's magic phase.

agreed. MR only comes to play when taking damage from a spell, the 3++ cap affects vanilla ward saves

[Prince of Spires]

Disagreed. You can't get a ward save better then 3+ when using the high lore attribute. The moment you hit a 2+ ward, the high +1 stops working.

Of course, the question is, how do you handle the high lore attribute and conditional ward saves. If you follow the logic that "As the ward is already upgraded as you would of casted a spell before your enemy's magic phase." then the consequence is that the high lore doesn't stack with other conditional wardsaves.

By conditional ward saves I mean thigns like the iron curse icon (a 6+ only vs warmachines) or parry saves (which only occur in a certain phase). If you follow the logic that you only look at the ward when a high spell is cast, then those conditional wardsaves are not affected by the high lore attribute. After all, normal wards don't stack. So you get a situation where you have a 6+ ward from the high lore attribute and a 6+ ward from the iron curse icon. Then you would just pick the highest.

If however, the high ward is dynamic (so you each time check the situation and apply when applicable), then the high ward stacks with conditional wardsaves. Downside is that it will always be limited to 3+.

Rod

[richiefuzz]

I can see it from both ways and I am not sure how rules really back one up over the other as MR would be after the 3+ had been achieved but also there does appear a cap...Good to know its not straight forward and thus a silly question!

[Dalamar]

As with anything else stackibg in warhammer, the player whose turn it is decides the order.

So on your turn - shield of saphery then mr for 2++
On oponent's turn - mr then shield for 3++ cap.

[Domine Nox]

I'm going to go with MR is applied after shield of saphery in all situations. Because unlike the Ironcurse Icon reference it is not actually a ward save. The Ironcurse Icon GIVES a ward save that shield of saphery would then boost. MR is "a bonus to ward saves when saving against damage caused by spells." As it is a bonus, it is only applied when its criteria is met. The Ironcurse Icon presents a static ward save that you cannot improve beyond the stated 3++. But if you already have a 3++ the MR would then provide a bonus when a spell was cast. As we would then be using MRs rules for how low the ward save can be boosted vs magic rather than Shield of Saphery.

[Tzineris]

High lore atribute improves your ward save by 1 each time a succesfull spell is casted! Ward save can never be improved by the high lore attribute more than 3+ that restriction goes only for the lore atribute and does not affect MR. MR is something that can be aplied to a ward save to improve it against spell damage and can never be better than 2+. So yes if you have 3+ ward save even from high lore attribute you can have 2+ ward save from magic resistanse but only for spell effects.

[wisetiger7]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Shield of Saphery can add to a ward save with the criteria that it does not go above 3+. When MR1 comes into play, and the unit already has a 3+ because of it. Thus, because it did not meet the criteria, Shield of Saphery does not take effect.

This is similar to Magic Resistance. MR comes into effect when a unit takes damage caused by spells. If it doesn't meet this criteria, it does not take effect.

Again, this is similar to Ironcurse Icon. It comes into effect when a unit takes damage caused by warmachines. If it doesn't meet this criteria, it does not take effect.

I believe, at any given time, Shield of Saphery can not contribute to any ward save beyond the 3+ because of its maximum restriction. Period. That is the stipulation. Now, if you have PG, and MR2, as well as SoS, I would say you get a 2++ vs Spell Damage, 3++ vs everything else.

[Domine Nox]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Shield of Saphery can add to a ward save with the criteria that it does not go above 3+. When MR1 comes into play, and the unit already has a 3+ because of it. Thus, because it did not meet the criteria, Shield of Saphery does not take effect.

This is similar to Magic Resistance. MR comes into effect when a unit takes damage caused by spells. If it doesn't meet this criteria, it does not take effect.

Again, this is similar to Ironcurse Icon. It comes into effect when a unit takes damage caused by warmachines. If it doesn't meet this criteria, it does not take effect.

I believe, at any given time, Shield of Saphery can not contribute to any ward save beyond the 3+ because of its maximum restriction. Period. That is the stipulation. Now, if you have PG, and MR2, as well as SoS, I would say you get a 2++ vs Spell Damage, 3++ vs everything else.

Shield of Saphery cannot bring a save to greater than 3++, it does not say it can not contribute to any ward save that goes beyond 3++.

By your definition if I had a 5++, and got off 1 high magic spell, I would have a 4++. Somebody casts a spell on me and I have MR(2), well I only get a 3++. I have to disagree with that, because that's not what MR says nor is it restricted by Shield of Saphery, because Shield of Saphery is not what is bringing it past 3++.

[wisetiger7]

Shield of Saphery cannot bring a save to greater than 3++, it does not say it can not contribute to any ward save that goes beyond 3++.

It does not say it CAN. This is a permissive ruleset. It must say it CAN to be able to do it.

By your definition if I had a 5++, and got off 1 high magic spell, I would have a 4++. Somebody casts a spell on me and I have MR(2), well I only get a 3++. I have to disagree with that, because that's not what MR says nor is it restricted by Shield of Saphery, because Shield of Saphery is not what is bringing it past 3++.

Shield of Saphery has the restriction built into it. It keeps adding up to a maximum of 3++. Period. That is the restriction. It doesn't restrict MR. It restricts its own contribution to the ward save. If MR2 triggers and makes the 5++ into a 3++, Shield of Saphery's restriction prohibits it from adding to it.

I know that there can be confusion, and it may need a FAQ. But I believe this is the correct way to play it. Why, you might ask? Because if we did it your way, we COULD be (and probably are) breaking a rule. If we do it my way, we are definitely not breaking any rules. Well, that, and logically mine makes better sense. Muahahahaha! jk.

No, but really.

[NexS]

It seems that we may need a GW FAQ on this one!

[Nicene]

I believe Domine Nox is correct here. Magic Resistance is not a "conditional ward save;" rather, it is a bonus to your existing ward save when saving against wounds caused by spells. So the PG will roll a 2++ against the wounds (even though their ward save remains only 3++).

[Arvandor]

XDDD

Agreed, unless im missing the fine print MR is not affected by the attribute. Just the ward save on its own. Either MR4 items would be obsolete....not that they exist in the first place....just sayin.

[Prince of Spires]

In the end, this simply needs an FAQ, since I don't tink we're going to resolve this one.

Shield of Saphery cannot bring a save to greater than 3++, it does not say it can not contribute to any ward save that goes beyond 3++.

Aren't both the same thing though? bringing to in this context is the same as contributing to. What you do is the same thing and the effect on the table is the same. You first have a 5+ ward save, you increase it by 1 and then you have a 4+ ward save.

Shield of Saphery clearly states "to a maximum ward save of 3+". Therefore, once a wardsave goes above 3+ shield of saphery does nothing anymore.

By your definition if I had a 5++, and got off 1 high magic spell, I would have a 4++. Somebody casts a spell on me and I have MR(2), well I only get a 3++. I have to disagree with that, because that's not what MR says nor is it restricted by Shield of Saphery, because Shield of Saphery is not what is bringing it past 3++.

The first sentence we agree on. That's what shield does. However, the last part I simply have to disagree. Shield of Saphery is exactly what is bringing it past 3++. Start with a 5+ wardsave. If you don't have Shield up and you have MR(2), what would your ward save be against a spell? 3+. Now you have shield of Saphery up, if you would get a 2+ ward save, how is that not caused by shield? Without shield you have a 3+, with shield you would get to 2+. Seems pretty obvious to me that the difference here causes the ward to become 2+. And that difference is shield...

I also disagree that is it somehow different to the Ironcurse Icon. Being a wardsave and giving a wardsave is pure semantics. In fact, if you have no wardsave, magic resistance GIVES a model a ward save (see BRB p72: magic resistance can even give a ward save to models that do not have one).

Going from this, a model with no base ward save but with the ironcurse icon and MR(1), this model has a conditional ward save vs warmachines and a conditional ward save vs magic. Both seem pretty much the same to me. If you get hit by a cannon, you get a 6+ ward save, if you get hit by a magic missile you get a 6+ ward save. Any other attack, you don't get a ward save. The model now has Shield of Saphery in effect, up to a 3+ ward save. In this case, you're arguing that against a cannon you get a 3+ and against the MM you get a 2+. That's just wildly inconsistent.

As a final point, in the logic where MR + Shield interact to be able to give a 2+ ward, it apparently matters in which order you apply the ward saves. After all, if you start adding them together to first count MR and then the shield bonus, you get to 3+ and shield stops adding to the ward. The other way round, you would apparently get to 2+ by first giving the shield bonus and then MR. Since this is 2 effects happening at the same time, the player whos turn it is can decide the order in which things happen. And since MR almost always happens in your opponents turn (I can't think of a magic attack in your own turn that would trigger your own MR at least), he can decide if you get a 3+ or a 2+.

Rod

[Ferny]

Not that it effects the actual rule (though it will effect those games and some builds), but how have various tournies ruled this? Does it go both ways or is there a general consensus?