Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

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thundering
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Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#1 Post by thundering »

This is a question I've asked to my gaming group, and I wanted to know if there is anything beyond the "rule as intended" argument that clarifies the following:

Lileath's Blessing:
Models with this special rule at +1 to all attempts to cast spells from the Lore of High Magic.
Multiple instances of this rule being present confer a cumulative effect (five L1 High Mages = +6 (1 for level, 5 for rule) to all of their respective casts)

While I am aware that this creates obvious problems (five L1s and two L4s would give the L4s a bonus of +11 (4 for level, 7 for blessing) which is out of this world), I do not see anywhere in the rulebook that would argue against this effect taking place. The rule adamantly states ALL attempts, be they friendly, enemy, or from any wizard. Similar rules (rare as they are) do similar things. For example, in the present iteration, Tetto'Eko for Lizardmen's ability to make Lore of Heaven's spells irresistible on any doubles roll alters all rolls, not just his own.

In its present wording, Lileath's Blessing reads very specifically. How do the patrons of this forum use this rule, and if there is some literature or FAQ on the subject I am missing beyond the argumentation for "common sense" or "rules as intended", please direct me to it.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#2 Post by Prince of Spires »

Interesting. I never read the rule that way actually, and I think that goes for most other people on here as well.

I always took it to mean that the rule simply applied to the model casting the spell, as in he adds "plus 1 to all his casting attempts". It does seem like it doesn't say that but instead that each mage adds +1 to all casts, irregardless of who does the casting. That suddenly makes the whole rule a lot more powerfull.

Generally at least, this sort of "all" rules refer to all friendly casts. Otherwise, a LM player using High magic would also benefit from the rule.

I think everyone simply missed this. So thanks for pointing it out. Let's see if it gets FAQed or not (my guess is no, since noone has asked it be for so it definatly isn't a frequent question yet). Of course, it's not as extreme as you point out in almost all cases, since generally speaking a HE player will run with 2 mages tops. Though a coven suddenly does become more attractive.

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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#3 Post by Nightwing »

That would mean the archmage is no longer an auto include. A lvl 2 would be at +4 to cast with a back up lvl 1. It actually makes more sense with the lore attribute. More mages = more opportunities to get that ward save when you need it. Please let this be true!
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#4 Post by Sackree »

Image


If this is true I am very happy, I am also amazed it was missed for so long,

I'm looking forward to hearing the discussion on this one.
Last edited by Sackree on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#5 Post by Domine Nox »

That interpretation would certianly give High more credence, and it would explain why so many ETC lists had multiple mages.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#6 Post by XViper »

Image
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#7 Post by Lord Sloth »

I think the writer just missed the word 'their' from the sentance
Lileath's Blessing:
Models with this special rule add +1 to all their attempts to cast spells from the Lore of High Magic.
Fixed it! :mrgreen:
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#8 Post by PurpleFlames »

rdghuizing wrote: I always took it to mean that the rule simply applied to the model casting the spell, as in he adds "plus 1 to all his casting attempts". It does seem like it doesn't say that but instead that each mage adds +1 to all casts, irregardless of who does the casting.
Hi, have the German version here. Its equally ambigious.
My interpretation:
Intended: adds +1 to all his high magic casts
RaW: adds +1 to all friendly high magic casts

So Id expext this in a future errata. UNLESS... do these bonuses usally stack?
Could it be that 1 mage adds +1 to all casts, but 2 mages only add +1 to all casts as well?
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#9 Post by Ferny »

Sounds like it's definitely one to be added to the FAQ list which was being compiled (even though it's been sent off already). Makes sense to start re-compiling in case there are more like this which slipped through our collective net.

Good spot!
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#10 Post by Domine Nox »

I would not be surprised if this was intentional. As that would allow High Magic mages to compete against the power dice generation races solely with our lore. Since it doesn't help the Lore Master at all, it would seem to be a valid mechanic and if justified will push me back to trying more High magic centric builds.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#11 Post by Bolt Thrower »

This would be quite a boon to High magic overall. I really want to be able to believe that High magic can be an advantage for us, and this cumulative effect could be just what is needed to make it so.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#12 Post by Furion »

Easy, special rules don't stack.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#13 Post by evinkuruga »

A nice thing about the mages is that they get the blessing rule regardless of the lore they chose. This allows you to take a Level 4 high mage, easily get boost of +6 or +7 and still have acces to multiple lores through the supporting hero level mages (although the other lores will be cast "normal").

Too bad the f.a.q. is taking so long, since this one probably won't be in it until they revise their soon to be brand new f.a.q.
And with the new lizardmen armybook they have more questions incomming soon, especially if they can use high magic too.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#14 Post by PurpleFlames »

Furion wrote:Easy, special rules don't stack.
Source? My (german) rule book states that special rules do stack unless otherwise noted.

By now I also think it might be a feature not a bug...
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#15 Post by Nightwing »

Taken in this context, all mages would add +1 whether they took high magic or not. Eg high archmage, lvl 2 light, lvl 1 metal, the archmage would be at +6 to cast.
I really hope this is both RAW and RAI as it will open up so many more possibilities for list building. I think this is exactly what was intended. Otherwise it would have read something like this:

"If an army has one or more models with the blessing of lillieath then it adds +1 to each spell casting attempt from the lore of high magic."
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#16 Post by lordoftheshadows »

I never saw that.

This is a something I thought of but I'm not sure if it's legal.
You can have three casters on another lore and an Archmage on High and the Archmage would still get +8 to cast and maybe the BOH. This would allow for a mixed coven of mages.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#17 Post by Nightwing »

Another thing to consider, how does this rule interact with khaines ring of fury?
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#18 Post by pk-ng »

PurpleFlames wrote:
Furion wrote:Easy, special rules don't stack.
Source? My (german) rule book states that special rules do stack unless otherwise noted.

By now I also think it might be a feature not a bug...
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#19 Post by wisetiger7 »

I don't see any special rules stacking... I see a modifier stacking... One model is not getting Lileath's Blessing multiple times. The model is getting the +1 multiple times. Just like the Frostheart. It gives the enemy unit ASF and -1S. It does not give the enemy unit Blizzard Aura. The Phoenix is the one who has Blizzard Aura.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#20 Post by Domine Nox »

Nightwing wrote:Another thing to consider, how does this rule interact with khaines ring of fury?
The Ring is a Bound Spell "Note that bound spells never benefit from any casting modifiers the user might have"
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#21 Post by Prince of Spires »

wisetiger7 wrote:I don't see any special rules stacking... I see a modifier stacking... One model is not getting Lileath's Blessing multiple times. The model is getting the +1 multiple times. Just like the Frostheart. It gives the enemy unit ASF and -1S. It does not give the enemy unit Blizzard Aura. The Phoenix is the one who has Blizzard Aura.
+1.

There is no stacking of special rules here. Each mage has the rule a single time. It's the modifiers that stack.

In the same way, if you cast wildform twice on the same unit, the unit gains +2 S, since it's a modifier. But if you cast Earthblood on a unit, it only has one 5+ regeneration save, since that's a special rule and not a modifier.

If modifiers didn't stack, then casting any spell that raises S on a unit with a special weapon would be useless. After all, a GW wielding unit already has a +2 S modifier. Casting wildform for another +1 S would then be stacking...

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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#22 Post by Lord Sloth »

Doesn't this errata cover this?:
Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change“[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]”to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated,a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.”to the end of
the first paragraph.
The bit of the errata that I was more interested in is the first part:
Change“[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]”to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”

The BrB (P.66, with this errata) reads:
Unless otherwise noted, the effects of different special rules are cumulative.

Lillyleafs Blessing is a Special Rule. (It ain't a Spell Name, or item or something.)
So the effects do not stack.
You can get +1 to cast from other different Special Rules, but not from the same rule.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#23 Post by Prince of Spires »

Lord Sloth wrote:Doesn't this errata cover this?:
In my opinion, no.

The piece you mention talks about what rules a model has. The model only has the special rule once. Each mage has only 1 version of the special rule "lileaths blessing", so they satisfy the part of the errata that states that a model gains no benefit from having the same special rule multiple times. They only have it once.

What does the special rule do? It gives a modifier. Modifiers can stack. You can get +1S 3 times for +3S for instance.

The rules for lileaths blessing say that each mage gives +1 to cast high magic spells to all mages. Since it's a modifier (like the S in the earlier example), having multiple mages means you get multiple +1's.

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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#24 Post by Nightwing »

I would argue that the entry in the high elf army book constitutes the "unless otherwise stated" part of your argument. It's quite specific. "A model with lileaths blessing adds +1 to all attempts to cast spells from the lore of high magic".
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#25 Post by pk-ng »

everyone start spamming level 1s!
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#26 Post by Prince of Spires »

pk-ng wrote:everyone start spamming level 1s!
It would make a lvl 1 scroll caddy suddenly a lot more viable. Pair him with a high lvl4, give him metal (for the sig) or high (with 3+ to cast) and you get the scroll, a nice extra spell and +1 to cast for the lvl 4.

I doupt it would go much beyond that though. A case of diminishing returns. A second lvl 1 doesn't bring much extra to the table except for the +1. And that is pretty expensive for the points. So I don't think it's as overpowered as it may seem on paper. But at least it creates some magic heavy options.

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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#27 Post by PurpleFlames »

rdghuizing wrote:It would make a lvl 1 scroll caddy suddenly a lot more viable. Pair him with a high lvl4, give him metal (for the sig) and you get the scroll, a nice extra spell and +1 to cast for the lvl 4.
Or use beasts (signature) so you have more casting options in combat. Also: more mages = more chances for extra dice ;)

Any reason blessing doesnt work if the lvl 1 hides in the back of the unit?
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#28 Post by cptcosmic »

Lord Sloth wrote:Doesn't this errata cover this?
this part covers the rules that a single model has.

also army book trumps BRB. if the army book says "ALL ATTEMPTS" then it is prettry clear what it means and trumps any BRB rule.
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#29 Post by Stormie »

Lizardmen Slann players are going to love playing you guys. Slann with +7 to cast? Thanks very much :mrgreen:
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Re: Lileath's Blessing, Cumulative Effect

#30 Post by cptcosmic »

I am sure it is meant to be read as "add +1 to all attempts for models with this rule" and not "each model adds +1". the problem is that "add" can be handled differently here and both ways would be actually correct according to the rule.
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