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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:50 pm 
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So, Ive decided that, if there are enough spaces left when I have the cash, that Im going to take part in the Aftermath Tournament. It has so much going for me that its literally just calling out.

- You dont have to have painted minitures, so no pressure to finish models
- Its in May so just over a month to finalise lists etc
- It seems a friendly club, ideal for my first ever tournament
- Its in the same county as me so not too far to travel
- They dont have restrictions on Comp Points, which makes it a great time for me to think about it.

Now for the cons. I simply dont have that many figures, and I dont have the money to go out and buy more, so Im stuck with these figures which I either own, or I believe I will own next week thanks to a trade on this very forum.

- Prince 465 Points
-- Dragon Armour, Lance, Longbow, Shield
--- Blade of Leaping Gold, Enchanted Shield, Potion Of Toughness
-- Griffon, Swiftsense, Swooping Strike

- Archmage 295 Points
-- High Magic, Wizard level 4
--- Ironcurse Icon, Seed of Rebirth, Sword Of Bloodshed
-- No Mount, will be placed in a unit of 20 Spearmen forming a unit of 7x3

- Noble 313 Points
-- BSB, Dragon Armour, Lance, Shield
--- Ruby Ring Of Ruin
-- Griffon, Swooping Strike

- 20 Archers 230 Points
-- Champion, Musician, SB

- 5 Ellyrian Reavers 125 Points
-- Bow and Spear, Champion, Musician, SB

- 10 Lothern Sea Guard 150 Points
-- Champion, Musician, SB
-- Shields

- 10 Lothern Sea Guard 150 Points
-- Champion, Musician, SB
-- Shields

- 8 x Silver Helms 214 Points
-- Champion, Musician, SB
-- Shields

- 20 Spearmen 220 Points (+ Archmage mentioned earlier)
-- Champion, Musician, SB, Banner Of Eternal Flame

- 10 Sword Masters Of Hoeth 185 Points
-- Champion, Biting Blade
-- SB, Banner Of Swiftness
-- Musician

Total Points - 2,347

Comp Points 21.3 = Beyond Friendly aka Very Fluffy Bar Stewards

So, bearing in mind I can not change any of the figures, purly on the basis that lack of cash prevents me from buying any more, but magic and/or items can be altered.

Is this list OK. I have no problems with receiving a right royal thrashing (honestly, Im a good loser) but I want to give it my best.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:08 am 
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Lady Phoenix wrote:
So, bearing in mind I can not change any of the figures, purly on the basis that lack of cash prevents me from buying any more, but magic and/or items can be altered.


Ill try to keep any buying suggestions to minimum :P

Lady Phoenix wrote:
- Prince 465 Points
-- Dragon Armour, Lance, Longbow, Shield
--- Blade of Leaping Gold, Enchanted Shield, Potion Of Toughness
-- Griffon, Swiftsense, Swooping Strike


Potion of toughness is good item, though sometimes people tend to forget to use it. I personally think that your prince would benefit more from Giant blade, or even Ogre blade. I would probably add more defence for him for example using armour of destiny and lion cloak you get +1 armor against shooting. With armour of destiny you could add ogre blade or sword of strike.

The lance doesn't benefit you when you have magical weapon, unless that magical weapon is destroyed by some effect (usually magic) and that isn't very common.

Charmed shield are also very potent items on monster ridden characters as they will protect them from the first cannon ball / bolt thrower shot. Similarly Crown of Attrazar can be used to protect the characters in early turn from such threats.

Lady Phoenix wrote:
- Archmage 295 Points
-- High Magic, Wizard level 4
--- Ironcurse Icon, Seed of Rebirth, Sword Of Bloodshed
-- No Mount, will be placed in a unit of 20 Spearmen forming a unit of 7x3


I would absolutely take the Sword of Bloodhsed quickly quickly... did I say immediately.... away (sorry for sarcastic tone ;) ). That is effectively 3 more spearmen to your unit for 60 points, which actually have (depending on enemy) better chance of being wounded than regular spearmen. To get points to this mage Book of Hoeth is very good item (allthough depending on comp, that might be expensive), Talisman of Preservation for extra defence, even Fencer's Blade for extra defense would be far better investment. If nothing else take Dispel Scroll with him. Another item that you can spend tons of points is Book of Ashur (I think it is overpriced but still would probably be much better investment than the bloodshed could ever be. I don't personally used scroll of shielding but that seem to be used in many tournament list.

Secondly I would reconsider High Magic (I actually am writing a guide on the High Magic usage that I hope I get to publish soon) but in short and my experience it works much better when you have elite infantry or dragon princes to boost with high magic. I think you would be better of with lore of life or shadows with this particular list you have. With lore of life signature you would get pretty much same benefit (not exactly) than you could with 2 or 3 (if throne of vines is active) cast of high magic.

You can also spend points on this character by adding magic resistance items to him. It would give his unit also the magic resistance.

Spearmen should be 5 wide block that tries to benefit from rank bonuses and steadfast. Remember that in close combat they can strike in 4 ranks (unless they charged the enemy which makes them fight in 3 ranks) and depending on your enemy, but especially if you are facing horde you are giving more attacks to your enemy to kill your expensive core unit. And if and when you make the change on the lore I would suggest bunkering the mage in to the archers instead and use spearmen to guard them or more aggressively to engage combat with enemy trashy core.

Lady Phoenix wrote:
- Noble 313 Points
-- BSB, Dragon Armour, Lance, Shield
--- Ruby Ring Of Ruin
-- Griffon, Swooping Strike


I would change this item to Fury ring of Khaine for same point cost, little shorter range but 2d6 str 4. And with flying monster the range shouldn't be any problem at all. Like your prince so does noble on griffon benefit from charmed shield / crown of attrazar. I think your griffon would benefit much more from swiftsense as it would help you regardless did you charge or not.


Lady Phoenix wrote:
- 5 Ellyrian Reavers 125 Points
-- Bow and Spear, Champion, Musician, SB


I know you are trying to spend points to get to the maximum game size, but I think your should try to keep reavers as minimal cost as possible. Reavers are the noble sacrifice unit that usually are best of dying for the greater good. I would take command off them and make them Spear only. Then I would spend the extra points gain to kit those characters to get the point allowance on your models.

Lady Phoenix wrote:
- 10 Lothern Sea Guard 150 Points
-- Champion, Musician, SB
-- Shields

- 10 Lothern Sea Guard 150 Points
-- Champion, Musician, SB
-- Shields

- 20 Spearmen 220 Points (+ Archmage mentioned earlier)
-- Champion, Musician, SB, Banner Of Eternal Flame


I would ask tournament organizer wether you could use them simple spearmen or from point usage perspective ask if you could use spearmen as Seaguards. That way you would get unit big enough that would actually benefit from having spears and still shoot. Very least I would make them one unit as now they don't benefit nothing from the spears in so small unit and with 20 they will lose the benefit complete when 5 of them are dead.

Secondly if you go bigger unit having lore of high magic would benefit them more than not having it. (including any magical resistance etc)

Lady Phoenix wrote:
- 10 Sword Masters Of Hoeth 185 Points
-- Champion, Biting Blade
-- SB, Banner Of Swiftness
-- Musician
.

I think Biting Blade is bad trade for Great weapon. Only reason why I would even consider arming swordmaster / whitelion / phoenix guard champion with magical weapon is ethereal units. But if you want to sink points this way Sword of Might is probably the "best" option

Lady Phoenix wrote:
Comp Points 21.3 = Beyond Friendly aka Very Fluffy Bar Stewards

I cannot comment this because I have never used any comp rules ;)

Lady Phoenix wrote:
Is this list OK. I have no problems with receiving a right royal thrashing (honestly, Im a good loser) but I want to give it my best.


well in short as presented it is not ok. but lest hope we can improve it a bit :)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:56 am 
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You are in trouble with this list. Griffon is not that good and other than minimum core is usually a bad idea. If you can proxy little, you could maybe get a little better list. Most of the units are too small as you have a lot of low strength units they need ranks. You are lacking the special and rare troops almost totally so you need to invest to chars to get more punch to low strength units. Two griffon is just this, but they get cannonballed quite fast. If you have not assembled all you might think of not assembling some of the commands . The eq. Of chars are also not that optimal. Fighting chars eq. Are quite simple more strength and additional protection. E.g. Flying monster char should have at least a one time 4++ ward to save it from cannonball. Mages usullally want also a ward save and a arcane item and or ring. Do not pre-place your chars, they should have multiple unit choices.

Simply saying you have quite few troops for a 2400 game. Try something like

Prince, gw, reaver bow, armour of destiny, potion of strength, fire protection gem (Use sm sb)
Lvl4 shadow, tal. Of pres. Dispel scroll
Griffon noble, swiftsense, bsb, ha, lion cloak, lance, shield, dragon helm, crown of alc. (Swooping strike to griffons if you have points)
Griffon noble, swiftsense, da, lance, enc. Shield, opal amulet
30ish archers, fc (use archers and spears with sword hands)
8 helms, fc
5 reavers, bows
9 sm, mus
2x15 sisters (use lsg and spears)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:17 am 
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20 archers fc, 2x20 sisters can also work. Modelwise looks at least better. Do not know how well 20 archers with prince (halberd might be better with prince) hold an attack though.

Edit: not enough core points so need to switch to worse, 20 lsg, shields, fc +2x20 sisters. Archer and spear conversion can probably go through as sister. Those iob lsg:s are mostly one piece so

P, halberd, reaver bow, armour of destiny, pot. Of strength, fire protection ring
Lvl4 shadow, tal of pres, dispel scroll
N, G, bsb, lance, ha, lion cloak, shield, dragon helm, crown, swooping, swifts.
N, G, lance, da, enc. Shield, opal amulet, swooping, swifts.
20ish lsg, shields, full command
5 reavers, bows
8 helms, shields, fc
9, sm, mus
2x20ish sisters (archers and spear conversion)


Last edited by PGP on Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:12 am 
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Thank yoy for advice so far, will take on board

however, being a newbie, may I ask that if you use an abbreviation, could you put the full meaning in brackets also as I don't know many of them, for example gw fir example gw fir prince

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:18 am 
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Checked that I didn't use much abbreviations ;)

from PGP post

FC = Fullcommand
LSG = Lothern Seaguard
IoB = Island of Blood (the starter set)
Tal of pres = Talisman of Preservation
P = Prince
N = Noble
G = griffon
HA = Heavy armor
Crown = Crown of Atrazar (or command, but most likely atrazar ;) )
SM = Swordmasters
GW usually means Great Weapon, but in some context might refer to Games Workshop

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:12 pm 
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Based on the models you have and the comp (I found Aftermath X tourney in May 2015), I would recommend that you go with the following (I am also assuming that you can use proxies as the models don’t have to be painted):

Lords (33.8%):
- Eltharion the Grim on Stormwing (General, Lore of Death, proxy with the Prince on Griffon Model)
- Archmage, 4th Level, Book Hoeth, Obsidian Lodestone (Lore of Shadow) (alternatively, Lore of Life)
Heroes (14.4%):
- Noble, BSB, Griffon (Swiftsense, Swooping Strike) Shield, Lion Cloak, Armour of Fortune, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Ironcurse Icon
Core (32.4%):
- 20 x Spears, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
- 20 x Lothern Sea Guard, Shields, Full Command (proxy Standard Bearer with extra musician, extra champ is unit filler)
- 5 x Ellyrian Reavers, Full Command, Bows only
- 6 x Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
Special (7.2%):
- 10 x Swordmasters, Full Command, Lichebone Pennant
Rare (11.9%):
- 18 x Sisters of Avelorn, High Sister, The Reaver Bow (proxy with the Archers)
Total: 2396 points

Swedish Comp Calculation (using 15.2)
(26) Eltharion, Lore of Death, Stormwing
(75) Archmage, 4th level, Book of Hoeth, Lore of Shadow (Lore of Life is the same comp cost)
(20) BSB, Griffon with Swiftsense, 2nd Flying Monster
(5) Spears
(7) Lothern Sea Guard
(4) Reavers
(7) Silver Helms with Shields
(6) Swordmasters
(12) Sisters of Avelorn, The Reaver Bow
(0) Shooting = 10 (LSG) + 18 (Sisters) + 4 (Reaver Bow) + 1 (Eltharion) = 33 (less than 40)
(162) Total

Swedish Comp Score = 300 -162 = 138 ---> 13.8, which is on the edge of Friendly by Swedish Comp rules.

This list gives you two units to have the Archmage join initially, the Lothern Sea Guard (where I would place the Archmage) and the Spears. The Sisters would be a fall back option.

I added the Ironcurse Icon to the BSB as this item gives the unit a 6+ Ward Save against war machines, which is really there for the Griffon. Stormwing has a 5+ Ward Save thanks to one of Eltharion’s magic items.

If you really want to get over a comp of 14.0, one option is to change Eltharion’s Lore to one of the other Battle Magic Lores (except Shadow). Lore of Beasts could be an interesting alternative choice here. The other option is to put the Archmage on Lore of High Magic (score is then 15.0). While the comp may allow the Lore of Undeath, given your model constraints, I would not use that lore at this time.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:54 pm 
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Good luck with your first tournament. Do remember to have fun, and makes sure you drink lots of water and have some asprin/panadol with you. You will have a headache, i promise.


So two griffon riders. You will need to have a "dismounted" figure for each of these guys as their feathery buddies will usually die at some point.

Quote:
-- Dragon Armour, Lance, Longbow, Shield
--- Blade of Leaping Gold, Enchanted Shield, Potion Of Toughness
-- Griffon, Swiftsense, Swooping Strike


I take it this model has a lance? You can just say that he has a big magic sword, most people will have no issue with this. Armour of destiny, ogre blade, luck stone and charmed shield is your 100 points of magic items and a white lion cloak would be a good thing as well.

Quote:
-- BSB, Dragon Armour, Lance, Shield
--- Ruby Ring Of Ruin
-- Griffon, Swooping Strike


Give this guy a starlance I think. Enchanted shield and an opal amulet will give him a 3+ save and a 1 shot 4+ ward. The golden crown will give him a 2+ ward versus the first hit, not the first wound, which is why I suggest the opal amult.


Quote:
- Archmage 295 Points
-- High Magic, Wizard level 4
--- Ironcurse Icon, Seed of Rebirth, Sword Of Bloodshed


OK, this is much simpler. Talisman of preservation for the 4+ ward save, a scroll, dragonbane gem and the ring of fury (which will also give your unit a +1 to their ward save).

I'm not a fan of high magic, as the only spell I like is fiery convocation. Other lores I have used a lot are beasts for the boosted amber spear and Heavens for the comet, though both of those lores also have a lot of other useful spells.

I would be inclined to just run your archmage as a loremaster. That will make her a little tougher and very flexible.

My standard loremaster build is Talisman of Preservation, Scroll and Sword of Anti-heroes, or you can use the archmage build above.

Quote:
- 20 Archers 230 Points
-- Champion, Musician, SB


I would run these in 2 units of 10 and call them sisters


Quote:
- 10 Lothern Sea Guard 150 Points
-- Champion, Musician, SB
-- Shields
- 10 Lothern Sea Guard 150 Points
-- Champion, Musician, SB
-- Shields
- 20 Spearmen 220 Points (+ Archmage mentioned earlier)


I would just run 2 units of 20 sea guard with full command. I know people will wail and start sacrificing small children when you mention them, but Sea Guard are spears that pay an extra 4 points for bows. There are certainly much more cost effective units in the book, but as this is not a hard army, so I would not worry unduly. alternately do as suggested and just run them as spears to save yourself 160 points. With the archers being run as sisters you will have shooting covered.

Quote:
- 8 x Silver Helms 214 Points
-- Champion, Musician, SB
-- Shields


Yesss..... I have lots of these.


Quote:
- 10 Sword Masters Of Hoeth 185 Points
-- Champion, Biting Blade
-- SB, Banner Of Swiftness
-- Musician


Meh... 8 with a muso is all I run.

Quote:
- 5 Ellyrian Reavers 125 Points
-- Bow and Spear, Champion, Musician, SB


Just spears and bows without any command works fine, or add a muso if you have the points and want a reason to pick out the guy with the big hat in the unit.

I've not added up my suggestions, but hopefully it is reasonably close with some minor changes.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:33 am 
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Well, firstly thank you for all the help and advice Ive been given so far. So many pieces of advice to choose from, so here is what Ive opted to do.

Firstly, and dont get offended if this goes against any one piece of advice. Im going to go with the figures that I actually own, even though I would get away with proxies. This is for two reasons
- Firstly it cuts down on my options, which in this instance is a good thing. By limited my army its going to create big flaws in my army, big flaws that will only come to light for me when I actually play. Once I play a big battle Ill, hopefully, come away with a purchase plan on how to improve next time.
- You may call me odd here. If I play an opponent and they have proxies, even in a big serious tournament, Im fine with that, but Id like my minitures to be as accurate as possible. I mentioned in a previous thread about using a flameshpere phoenix as a frost one. Thats a no no for me, but for my opponent, Id be quite willing to allow that.

Im glad that most people are recognising that Im out to have fun, thats all. My game plan for the event is quite simple.

- Its £20 for a two day event, plus about £20 in petrol for the two days. For that I get 2 breakfasts, loads of free coffee and free cakes and stuff. That alone makes it great value for money.
- Im going to play 6 games, so if I can score 3 points I think I will be happy and I will have created a benchmark for myself.
- Im guaranteed to come away with a special prize in the form of 2 special D6. I know this doesnt sound much to you, but lets say there are 10,000 people out there who play WHFB. 50 people enter Aftermath X. That means I will own an object that 9,995 people dont own, and/or havent earnt.

Thank you for the advice on painkillers. Im slightly worried as to how headaches will form, but I will now place some low key drugs in my gaming case (I say gaming case, I mean a £5 tool box that I bought from some cheapy place)

So, list created, and I now have a wish list

- Movement Trays
- 2 boxes of Sisters Of Avelorn
- More of anything I already own.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:36 am 
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Lady Phoenix wrote:
Well, firstly thank you for all the help and advice Ive been given so far. So many pieces of advice to choose from, so here is what Ive opted to do.

Firstly, and dont get offended if this goes against any one piece of advice. Im going to go with the figures that I actually own, even though I would get away with proxies. This is for two reasons
- Firstly it cuts down on my options, which in this instance is a good thing. By limited my army its going to create big flaws in my army, big flaws that will only come to light for me when I actually play. Once I play a big battle Ill, hopefully, come away with a purchase plan on how to improve next time.
- You may call me odd here. If I play an opponent and they have proxies, even in a big serious tournament, Im fine with that, but Id like my minitures to be as accurate as possible. I mentioned in a previous thread about using a flameshpere phoenix as a frost one. Thats a no no for me, but for my opponent, Id be quite willing to allow that.



Makes perfect sense to me. I was just being conscious of the cost involved.

Lady Phoenix wrote:
So, list created, and I now have a wish list

- Movement Trays
- 2 boxes of Sisters Of Avelorn
- More of anything I already own.


I really hate the sisters figures. They are also a pain in the bottom to make rank up. As the archers are already wearing dresses. A cheap way of getting sisters might just be head swaps. Check on E-bay if anyone is selling heads and just switch out the heads to get your own unique figures.

Most of my army is converted to some degree to make them unique. In the end I used a mix of the shadow warrior bits and sisters bits to make a figure I liked more than either, and run those as sisters. I'm using the torsos with boobs and combining them with the shadow warrior bows and helmets, with a few of the Sisters heads as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:33 am 
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Rabidnid wrote:
I really hate the sisters figures. They are also a pain in the bottom to make rank up.


Ugh.. this is so true. I bought ten off eBay, already assembled... I honestly don't think I'll ever get them to rank up, they take up an extra 5mm in both directions from their base #-o

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