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Army list: 500pt HE vs Skaven (second game ever)
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Author:  LordMorgoth [ Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Army list: 500pt HE vs Skaven (second game ever)

Hello guys,

I'm setting up my second friendly Warhammer game against a buddy of mine who has been playing for a couple of years. We've agreed om 500pt to start with (I know, I know, 500pt is peanuts but I've got to start somewhere). I've put the list below bearing in mind that it kinda contains a little bit of everything, shooties, cc, flying units etc.

The thing I'm struggeling with is his Warpfire Cannon and his Ratogers as I'm not sure how to appraoch them...

Heroes (125pts)

Mage (125pts)
High Magic, Wizard Level 2 (35pts)
Ironcurse Icon (5pts)

Core (180pts)
10x Archer (100pts)
5x Ellyrian Reaver (80pts)

Rare (125pts)
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Great Eagle (HE) (55pts)
Shredding Talons (5pts)

Special (65pts)
5x Sword Master (65pts)

Author:  Loriel [ Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army list: 500pt HE vs Skaven (second game ever)

hello first of all welcome to the forum and to warhammer fantasy battle ;)

as you said 500 points is really small, but gotta start somewhere, that is true. I don't know what sized table you are using, but if it the standard 72 inch x 48 inch I suggest that play smaller games on 48x48, that makes the battle more intense and the game doesn't look as small as it is.

If you could post his list (or expected list) we could give you better tip off and I strongly suggest making a battle report. Take a few pictures or better yet make it with battle chronicler. Making the report is very educating and then rest of the players can address to certain problems with tons of better success.

LordMorgoth wrote:
The thing I'm struggeling with is his Warpfire Cannon


are you actually referring to warplight cannon or warpfire thrower. I assume that you mean thrower as it would make more sense in such low point game. Basicly there is two way to deal weapon teams. Either destroy or avoid.

1) destroy it

To destroy High Elves have three great choices that can deliver that in close combat and many that can do it with shooting / magic. Remember that the weapon team has only 1 wound and if it is near its parent unit (and this means the unit that he was bough with) it will have 4+ ward save. If you engage it in close combat remember that it can stand and shoot but only to its front arc. So fast units such as reavers / shadow warriors and eagles can do it. Shooting it with regular archers / sisters / bolt throwers 6 shot can usually do the trick.

lets say you shot it with your bolt thrower 6 shot. Lets assume that you have -2 to hit modifier (long range perhaps + cover) it could be -3 if the target is in hard cover. 6 shots hits on 5+ wounds on 3+ and 4+ ward if nearby the mother unit. One barrage on -2 to hit on average 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 -> 1/9 chance of killing it per shot and with six shot you have average of 2/3 killing rate with boltthrower. For single bolt 1/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 -> 5 / 36 which is significantly less than 6 shotting. Even your archers unit of 10 have decent chance of killing it.

Now if you use magic missile (too bad soul quench has only 18 range) but say you manage to cast soul quench on the thrower -> average 7 hits 2/3 wounds and 1/2 warded will cause on average 2.3333 wounds on it and is pretty much dead rat.

And if you get in close combat with any of those reavers, eagles, shadow warriors they are likely just put the rat down.

Destroying it with shooting attacks becomes much easier when the mother unit moves and if the weapon team doesn't move it will lose the 4+ ward quickly.

Incase it was the actual cannon reavers / shadow warriors / eagles are you friends. No point shooting at warmachine that has toughness 7 ;)

2) avoid

This depends so much on your opponents and on your list. If you use mainly faster units such as reavers / silver helms etc. You can simple get past its danger zone. thrower has 7+10 maximum range and cannot move and fire at the same turn. And remember that template cannot be originally placed so that it would hit friendly models (except skaven slaves that have special rule that allows it). However it is allowed to land on friendly models as long as the original template place isn't touching own models. Use this to your advantage that if you manage to move in position where warpfire flamer cannot land the template from the model so that it wouldn't touch own models he cannot do it.


LordMorgoth wrote:
his Ratogers as I'm not sure how to appraoch them...


Like everything you can either destroy it or avoid it.

To destroy for same point cost swordmasters will kill the unit easily (given that either isn't buffed by magic nor wounded by shooting.) But just plainly say 150 point units swordmaster will win the fight pretty much in every situation. (well not if feared)

They are also really vulnerable to magical missiles and soul quench will make those rat ogres squeel.

There is also couple more subtle tactics to be exploited. One is to take advantage of frenzy. If you place any unit within 18 inch (so that the rat ogres would be able to charge them) they have to take LD test and they will have LD of something like 5-8 in this game meaning that about 1/2 of a time they will fail. And unless he manages to roll double 6 he will move the higher ammount forward and sometimes the movement might block his other units movement as well so choosing the angle how to place something like eagles etc is very important.

Second way to exploit frenzy (perhaps not in such small games as it will be heavy investment to sacrifice a unit) but in bigger games just fly eagle / reaver unit right in front of the ogres if and when they charge frenzyed units must overrun. And if you place your swordmasters or anyother unit so that they will have neat flank charge on the ogres after the frenzy overrun, then you pretty much can win the battle even when you don't have more points investment in the battle. But as said in 500 point game sacrificing about 10 - 20 % of total points is rather much.

Third way to control those rat ogres is to shoot them with magic missiles and small arms. As you will randomize hits (from shooting and magic) between the ogres and packmasters even your archer unit has good chance of killing the packmasters from the unit. Should this happend the rat ogres are subject to stupidity and after that leaderships with 5 - 8 again something like 1/2 time the rat ogres becomes useless in as stupidity forces them to move D6 forward (stopping at any impassaple or other units so it isn't even charge if stupidity move would "touch" enemy) and if you additionally use the frenzy testing trick then you will make couple test per turn to deny their action completely. And as the rat ogres doesn't have any armor even str 3 shots will hurt them.

LordMorgoth wrote:
Mage (125pts)
High Magic, Wizard Level 2 (35pts)
Ironcurse Icon (5pts)


Incase he doesn't have Plague Catapult or Warplight Cannon ironcurse icon doesn't help. Weapon teams doesn't count as warmachines. High magic is rather good choice ( I personally love it ) but I think it is better used in bigger units to buff their ward. And soul quench is absolutely brilliant spell against skaven has only 18 range so you are forced to go rather near to your enemy with the mage and its bunker and thus risking getting all his shooting and even charges through. Thus I would advice you to take another (offensive) lore instead.

Allthough lore of fire is usually considered one of the worst lores in game in low point games it is actually very good. fireball scale up pretty good for low winds of magic and high winds of magic.

Death is always nice with spirit leech you can easily snipe his low ld targets down from safe 24 inch distance. for example you are very likely to those warpflame throwers with it and killing his general means his overall LD will become lower.

Finally lore of shadow has much synergy with us. Miasma is really good spell overall, enfeeble foes and wither are really good spells for elves. Okkams mindrazor (allthough with level 2 little bit too hard to cast) is really powerfull spell for always first striking elves.

There is also possibility with little investment (25 points) to make your magical output more dangerous. Buying fury ring (inbound soul quench with casting value of 3 causes 2d6 str 4 hits in range of 18) or ruby ring that has fire ball same value 1d6 str 4 to range of 24. This would give you another spell and in warhammer 8th edition small point games has fundamental problem with high winds of magic as you are "forced" to cast with more dices that you would normally need to get the spell past as your opponent will have so many dispel dices to be used. With extra spells to be used high magic phase isn't a big problem anymore.

LordMorgoth wrote:
Great Eagle (HE) (55pts)
Shredding Talons (5pts)

+

5x Sword Master (65pts)


Skavens are one of least armored armies out there. With Str 4 you are likely to strip the armor anyway off. You are probably far better of with the swiftsense to get reroll to hit and having the eagle to be more reliable when it comes to killing warmachines and giving you flank charge support.

I would probably add more bodies to swormasters and drop the eagle off.

---

Hope this will help you in your fight against those rats!

Author:  Loriel [ Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army list: 500pt HE vs Skaven (second game ever)

what an earth double posting pandemic is happening?

Author:  PGP [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Army list: 500pt HE vs Skaven (second game ever)

500 pts is hard with high elves. Try

High mage, iron curse icon is a good item, eg. lvl 1 with ring of fury and iron curse icon or lvl2
Minimum core archers with mus
Eagle, no options
Spend rest of the points to one swordmaster unit with pendant banner

Author:  LordMorgoth [ Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army list: 500pt HE vs Skaven (second game ever)

Loriel wrote:
hello first of all welcome to the forum and to warhammer fantasy battle ;)

Well thank you very much, and thanks for the comprehensive post!

Quote:
are you actually referring to warplight cannon or warpfire thrower.


Ah, see that's what you get when you type your first post on a phone ;). I did acutally mean a Warp Lightning Cannon. The sheer range of the thing is quite something!

So the general tactics here all seem to boil down into getting the reavers and the eagle up close and personal to the WLC as soon as possible.

LordMorgoth wrote:
Great Eagle (HE) (55pts)
Shredding Talons (5pts)


You are absolutely spot on for the Shredding Talons.

Author:  Loriel [ Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army list: 500pt HE vs Skaven (second game ever)

yep. one unit of reavers with bow or spear (doesn't really matter) or one eagle (especially with swiftsense) can easily destroy the warplight cannon in turns 2 - turn 3. (given that they are not deadened by magic nor other shooting)

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