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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:26 am 
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On re-reading this, I hope to I don't come off like an arrogant ass about the painting. Its just my first love and first concern but I don't want to be steamrolled for five games either!

Hey gang,

So I haven't played in a major tournament in over a year. I recently dusted off my HE's for our gaming club's local championship and wrote up a list that was an absolute razor. I happily steamrolled the tournament and won it going it away. Yay me.

But...this list is absolutely impossible under ETC comp and the GT I'm heading to is using ETC.

My dilemma is that I also was lucky enough to win the painting award at this GT two years in a row and I'm ready to try for a third time. But...you know...baby, wife, life, etc has basically guaranteed that I've had no time to paint anything new. I've got about a month and a half to do any new painted I need to and I want it to be at a high standard.

This also means that I want to field my best painted models while doing what I can to have a competitive list. And, of course, when I painted this army up a year and a half ago, I made a bus list, which is enemy #1 of the 2015 ETC comp. So, below I'll list the models I have painted (including how essential they are due to their paint jobs to be included or not), the comp I'm working with and a list I came up with. Any feedback would be grand.

The Models:

1x Mounted Prince (must include, best individually painted model)
1x Mounted BSB (must include, best painted character model with large freehand banner)
1x Foot Mage (non essential, but one of my better paintjobs in the army)
1x Mounted Mage (non-essential, but a nice paint job)

Units:
13x Heavy Cav (Could be SHs or Dragon Princes) - A must include for both model's paintjobs and the need for points to fill out the army
2x5 Ellyrian Reavers (converted to be ghostly stags) - A must include because I need the fast cav in core.
1x5 Ellyrain Reavers or SHs (converted War Lions) - They have to be either Reavers or SHs because I need the models in core. But they can count for either
24x Swordmasters - They are my best looking unit. Yes, they are probably going to be heavily abused in ETC comp, but they are coming. I'm open to some ideas of smaller units or MSU here, if people think it could make sense in a list.

1x Frostheart or Flamespyre - The model can be either and must be included. I would prefer it to be a Frostheart (for obvious reasons)
3x RBTs - These are the ones that are breaking my heart, but see "Dilemma" below.
1x5 Sisters of Avelorn - A nicely painted unit with some good flame effects.
2x Great Eagles - Converted to look like flocks of baby phoenixes. I like em, and they are cool enough, but not essential.

The comp - ETC Draft 3
High Elves
May select up to 5 choices from the pool below
● Banner of the World Dragon ­ 3 choices
● Each frostheart Phoenix ­ 1 choice
● 3 or more mounted characters ­ 1 choice
● 1 or more repeater bolt throwers ­ 1 choice
● Each flying strength 6 or greater large target after the second ­ 2 choices
● Teclis ­ 4 choices (Lore of Death, LD10 and Spirit Leech costs are included)
● Book of Hoeth ­ 1 choice
● Stardragon ­ 1 choice
● Alarielle ­ 2 choices
● Banner of Averlorn ­ 1 choice

The Dilemma
A) I'm fully commited to a knight bus list. I'll need at least one, maybe two more mounted characters to do this.
B) I would REALLY like to run a level 4 beasts, but range issues essentially force the mage to be IN the bus, this necessitates BOTWD (which is 3 pool choices)
C) The SH bus with BotWD is 4 of the 5 pool points off the bat. I can't see how to combine A and B above without the BoTWD in the unit (or the army)
D) If I take the Bus with BoTWD - We are looking one of the following to fill the last pool point
1) Frostheart
2) 3 RBTs (I don't have a 4th painted, but I could put one together)
3) Book of Hoeth
E) Leaving behind the Book is easy (its not a painted model). Choosing between the Frostheart or the RBTs is nearly impossible. I'd argue that each is potentially my best converted/painted models. So, I don't know what to do.

Solutions:
A) Drop the BoTWD and have it all - Can this be done and keep Beasts on a level 4? How would you address the Range issues (with Savage Beasts being a mere 12' range)?
B) Leave home the RBTs and take 2 units of Sisters instead and a Reaver Bow noble (I find the Reaver Bow noble interesting because if I try to cast Savage Beasts on him on Rds 1 and 2, its something the enemy has to stop, unless he wants me to have 3 shots with Str 8 at WS6)
C) Take a Flamespyre instead of a Frostheart and have the RBTs (I really don't like this. I don't find the FLamespyre up to the job)

So, here is the current list I'm looking at. I'd love some thoughts. I know its not super competitive, but I'm okay with it as long as I can give a good fight against most armies. Its based off of option B above.

Characters
Prince - steed + all the tricks
AM - steed, level 4, Forbidden Rod, Golden Crown, Crown of Command, Lore of Beasts
BSB - BoTWD, Steed, 2+armor, lance
Noble - Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, luckstone, steed
Noble - Reaver Bow, charmed shield, pot of strength, 2+armor,steed

Core
13x Helms, FC, shields
5x Reavers w bows and standard
5x Reavers w bows and standard
5x Reavers w bows

Special
23x Swordmasters, FC, Banner of Swiftness

Rare
1x Frostie
5x Sisters
5x Sisters

As for new painting to be done, a new unit of sisters and the two non-bsb nobles need to be converted and painted (which I don't mind at all). I regret having to leave my RBTs at home (more for the painting than the competitiveness). So, anyone suggest alternatives in the same vein?

Thanks for the patience to read all of that. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:48 am 
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Hmmm. Interesting dilemma. I'll have a go at this. Note that I'm trying to maximise your painting here.

Cavprince - 277
L4 on foot, scroll, crown - 280
BSB. Equipment is tricky. I would say Star Lance + Dragonhelm + Golden Crown. Weighs in at around 170 I would think.

Core:
13 SH
2x 5 Reavers
5 SH, champ + banner (if possible)

Special:
SM, BOTWD

Rare:
Frost
3x rbts

Comp: BOTWD (3), RBTs (1), Frost (1), 5/5.

L4 could be beasts I suppose. I'd vastly prefer High though ^^ Sisters and Eagles can flesh out rare as you see fit. This should be in the vicinity of 2400. Try and make a specific list draft based on this suggestion if you like my solutions :) We can take it from there.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:26 am 
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I agree.

I think Life's possible in the SM's but High looks better here because it improves board control and hits the enemy from turn one. Beasts does little to protect the SM's, the character buffs are 12", you don't need Amber Spear. I guess you'd be adding a 5++ to the Crown guy, 4++ and Ring (Ironcurse?) is an alternative. Ogre Blade on the BSB perhaps?

The original list seems to take a big hit to shooting, the heavy board control just goes. Plus the SM's look too vulnerable to me. The scroll is a big miss too. You could stick one on a High lvl2 in the SM's with Ring and still keep the Beasts guy but it's a bit makeshift.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:35 am 
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I ran something similar at this tourney last year, with the Banner in the SMs and Life magic on a level 4 with book.

It went well. The Knight unit had only the two characters and they seemed to handle an uncomped environment reasonably well, but I did have some very soft matchups along the way too.

If possible, I'd like to go a different direction other than Life/High with the magic. I've used them both extensively with this sort of list, which is why I went with beasts. I knew it would be a whole new ball game. I also don't care about having the scroll because I find it boring. The book is 'good enough' for me, even if a big spell costs me the game sometimes because I don't have the scroll.

I know the SMs are a massive point grab for some armies. With the BoTWD and Life they could manage in tough matchups, but only just. Unfortunately, as they are painted well, they are in. I also agree that without a clear synergy (Life/High + World Dragon) they seem out of place.

I had another wacky idea....something similar in the idea of 2 mounted characters for the knight unit. Thoughts?

Cav Prince
BSB - Ogre blade build as above
AM - on foot, Book/scroll?, Heavens

5x reavers, bows, std
5x reavers, bows std
5x reavers, std
14x archers, mus, std
14x archers, mus std

13x Dragon Princes - FC, BoTWD
12x Swordmasters -mus, std (or maybe 2x7 and drop the command elements? Use as archer/RBT guard, old skool 7th ed SM clips)

Frostie
3x RBT

The Dragon Princes get me the banner and save on the 3+ mounted characters. The 12 SMs (2x7 SMs) allow me to display the models which I think look good (but with no big unit, the unit filler has to go, which makes me a touch sad).

Not sure about archers in core, haven't run them in awhile and I don't have 14 painted, let alone 28. Really puts me off trying this, but I wanted to see what you all thought. I can imagine a bubble harmonic every turn to get both archer units and a pair of RBTs. The list is a bit more defensive than I like.(BTW, I see a list like this as giving up massive concessions to field the BOTWD. Things like this really aren't accounted for in ETC because you never get 'paid back' for taking a weaker or less efficient choice.)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:38 am 
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Personally, I don't think it's as strong as the other build. Though WD on the bus at least protects the characters from Death snipes a little, one of the reasons for taking a scroll. I know what you mean Ptolemy, I am a little tired of it being my only Arcane item for two years but it's that important IMHO. Book maybe if you keep WD. The problem with Beasts for me is that your army already does much of what it brings. Amber Spear copies RBT, you have a plethora of S6/7 attacks (compared to my army which is pretty much capped at S5).

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:46 am 
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If the painting comes first I'm not even sure why we are discussing the Book: Banner + RBT + Frost is 5/5 choices meaning you have to drop 1 of them to fit the Book in seeing as it costs 1PC now. Dropping the RBT/Frost hurts your painting chances (besides, they are awesome choices) and dropping the Banner leaves the Swordmasters useless.

If you are happy with my draft above but simply want to try something else than High/Life, what about Heavens? It's a solid lore with good choices all around :)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:50 pm 
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I'm thinking it may be your draft after all, Curu, butl...I gave the BoTWD a think and I've come around to the idea of just dropping it. Then I thought about fitting my last uncomped list into this without the banner and here is what it looks like.

Cav Prince
Archmage - Lore of Life? Obsidian Lodestone, Scroll, Level 4
Noble BSB - Ogreblade, 1+ armor, luckstone
Noble - 2+armor, lance, Other Trickster's Shard
Caradryan on Ashtari

Core
2x5 Reavers with Bows/Std
1x5 Reavers with spears/std
13x Helms, FC, shields

Special - None

Rare-

Frostheart Phoenix
3x RBT
1x GE

About 2390

I don't get to field any SMs (I was trying to find a way to fit in a 5-7 man unit for chaff duty, etc but couldn't find the points. Caradryan has been performing really well for me in my uncomped list. Yes, I've had the BOTWD in those lists on the bus, but his ability to smash up a troll/regen unit, bring a 2nd frostheart without having to sacrifice the RBTs and the opportunity to paint a second phoenix is exciting.

The Bus with Life is a sort of "I guess" move. Can you all suggest a better lore? The life mage offers the easy access to the 5+ regens which mitigates the miscast potential. The synergy for Flesh to Stone with the knights OR either Phoenix is obvious. I can't imagine any decent player will let me get off Throne in this list, so I'm likely to not even bother taking it in spell generation.

If you all think this might work, I can probably get excited about painting up the missing elements. Also, there is no reason I couldn't slap some of those Swordmasters on my display board anyway. Just cause. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:19 pm 
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I agree that dropping the banner might be the best choice. Lore of Life and the obsidian lodestone makes your Helmbus pretty awesome, and never underestimate the value of a regular battle standard.

I agree with taking Life as well, this is my favourite kind of list. But still, absolutely, take Throne of Vines If you can. People will dispel it, sure, and use up a bunch of dice doing so. It's perfect dispel dice bait to set up your other spells. You may also find a lot of players will let you cast Throne as they are pooping their pants and saving their dice for Dwellers, can't blame them. Don't deny yourself an awesome spell because it's too awesome and most players throw too many dispel dice at it.

My order of priority for Life spells, with a similar army to list to the one you just posted: Throne, flesh, Dwellers, regen


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:32 pm 
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Ladril Caledor wrote:
I agree that dropping the banner might be the best choice. Lore of Life and the obsidian lodestone makes your Helmbus pretty awesome, and never underestimate the value of a regular battle standard.

I agree with taking Life as well, this is my favourite kind of list. But still, absolutely, take Throne of Vines If you can. People will dispel it, sure, and use up a bunch of dice doing so. It's perfect dispel dice bait to set up your other spells. You may also find a lot of players will let you cast Throne as they are pooping their pants and saving their dice for Dwellers, can't blame them. Don't deny yourself an awesome spell because it's too awesome and most players throw too many dispel dice at it.

My order of priority for Life spells, with a similar army to list to the one you just posted: Throne, flesh, Dwellers, regen


My struggle with life has always been that when you hit that critical combat, you have only two spells that matter. Flesh to Stone and Earthblood.

For elves, both are capable of tipping the combat. However, having only the two spells means that your opponent can simply sit on them with their dispel dice while your other spells don't matter. In close phases (or against something like 3 channel Slaans or spam caster channels) it can hard to get either off without a third viable option to force some dice out.

Maybe having only the one real unit with the Helms (instead of Helms plus a complimentary unit) will help.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:55 pm 
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These days I feel it really pays to bring a second wizard, if you can fit one.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:55 am 
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Does caryadryn on ashtari count as mounted? I always assumed it did, that would push you to 3 mounted char's.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:55 am 
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Yup. Everyone is mounted in that list.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:01 am 
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Is this madness? I was fiddling around with the basics on the list and came up with this. Can this work in ETC?

Lords
Prince - barded steed, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Dragon armor, shield
AM - Level 4, High Magic, Obsidian Lodestone, Book of Hoeth, steed

Heroes
Noble - barded steed, Ogre Blade, enchanted shield, luckstone, dragon armor, BSB
Noble - barded steed, lance, shield, dragon armor

(here is the crazy bit)
Noble - Griffon! (swiftsense), Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, lance, Dragon Armor

Core
5x Reavers - std
5x Reavers - std
5x Reavers - bows, std
13x Silver Helms - shields, FC

Rare
1x Frostheart
1x Frostheart
1x RBT
1x Great Eagle

ETC Comp -
- 3+ mounted characters
- 2 Frosthearts
- Book of Hoeth
- RBTs

5/5 pool choices

So, its obviously ultra aggressive. Only one RBT and a Reaver Bow for ranged attacks. I'm considering dropping the Book to get a scroll + Ring of Fury to allow me to have two good magic missiles if needed or save my spell slots for other spells if I don't think doubling up on Soul Quench is worth it.

The double Frostheart I've found to really work well, but I've been running it as a Rare Frostheart and Caradryan in my uncomped games in order to keep 3x RBTs in the list. I can still do this (see my list above) in ETC as long as I leave the BoTWD at home. This alternate list brings in a third flying thunderstomp and the sort of warmachine hunter than can abuse the non-standard warmachines (Ironblasters, Skullcannons, etc) and hunt down the tougher chaff (warlocks, cowboys, etc). I know he can't march and fire with the Reaver Bow, but I see the bow as good for games where I don't want to push forward in turn 1 or when I have Walk Between Worlds available.

Obviously, he's dead against any gunlines but that then means the Frosthearts are likely to make it into combat to support the bus. I also like the target priority problems in the list. The Griffon Noble is a soft target (though essentially ignores 2 cannon balls or equivalent) and easy points but that equates to time (and shooting) wasted that will be needed to take down the rock hard phoenixes and the bus (which is pumping up wards through High Magic).

So....can it work? If Etc (which seems to prevent the double skullcannon, double ironblaster, mega artillery line mostly) comp is in place, can I manage with these minimal levels of shooting?

Thanks guys.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:22 am 
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Hi Ptolemy,

I have absolutely no ETC experience but just wanted to say I would forgive you "boring" cavalry bus and no Swordmasters in the army just because you added a griffon rider!

I think you will be able to use him well as he may fly under the radar (literally) due to two frosties. He might be softer and easier to kill but the advantage you have here is that: frosties can provide cover for him, they can catch some cannon balls for him (especially when you have 4++ ward turns), he is still well equipped to survive a few shots all by himself too.

On top of that it can add to the cool look of the army greatly.

Good luck with whatever army you are going to choose! I keep fingers crossed you are going to take another painting trophy home!

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:24 pm 
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I often find griffon-riders like that very useful, very great for clearing up chaff and warmachines, hunting lvl4s in bunkers and such, never tried it with the reaver bow though, i see alot of situations where that would be great!

Do you have any pictures of the army?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:07 am 
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mutti wrote:
Do you have any pictures of the army?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=58731

:)

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