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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:02 pm 
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Hi all!

So basically I used to dabble into 40k, but I was attracted by the regimental aspect of WHFB (I thought it looked more tactical?).

Long story short, I decided to go with High Elves, as I am a big fan of magic, elves, and some of the figs looked absolutely awesome!

I am a bit short on the cash side, and I would like to be able to compete in tournaments (the friend who introduced me to WHFB is a tournament player himself). Thus I am aiming to build a competitive escalation type list (so I can start )playing before reaching the 2400pts threshold) which includes the figs which dragged me to the army (namely: the Phoenix Guard, the mages, the Phoenix and the Silvers Helms and Prince Dragons).

I really don't like the look of the Swordmasters, and apparently the Lothern Sea Guard is not competitive, so I was thinking about lurking on eBay and not buying the island of blood box (buf if anyone has a strong argument in favor of the Island of blood I am all ears :D).

My questions are the following: is a list which include the Phoenix Guard and a lot of magic viable? And which Core choices would be advisable?


Thanks in advance! (and apologies for my English, it's not my native language :s)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:15 pm 
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from the items you particularly like id look at running a fast, aggressive list something along the lines of...

Prince on star dragon

Cav bus with bsb and lv 2 or lv 4

a reaver unit

a chunky phoenix guard unit as your support unit to the cav bus

a unit of 5/6 dragon princes

great eagles

bolt throwers

frost phoenix


Looking at escalation you could begin with the cav bus, lv 2 mage, bsb and some support items. Adding in a prince on dragon and reavers and finishing with adding in the rest of the units at your 2400 pt


thats my 2 pence anyway

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:17 pm 
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Odelis wrote:
My questions are the following: is a list which include the Phoenix Guard and a lot of magic viable? And which Core choices would be advisable?

Sure. PG is considerd one of the best anvil units in the game.
If you look at most current army lists, the most used core units are Reavers, Silver Helms and Archers.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:12 am 
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Hey,

Thanks for all the quick replies! I am glad to know my favorites are nice looking and competitive aha :D

Regarding the dragon, I thought it was better to have a lvl4 Archmage as a Lord? Or am I mistaken?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:25 am 
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So for the phoenix guard, i would say that yes, they are definitely a very viable unit. I would go as far as to say they are one of the best 3 in the game. High magic is a solid choice as it is, and it complements the phoenix guard very well with the 3++ if a spell goes off. If you have a large phoenix guard unit razor standard is almost necessary, and i would run a lv2 and a lv 4 mage, 1 to high and one to shadow or life, you can mess around with that. For this build i would go with msu of archers for core.

The other build, which is more competitive, would be to have a silver helm bus with 2 frosties and some other stuff. atm this is more or less the most competitive for of a HE list, and you will see it in some way or another in any tournament you go to.

2-4 units of reavers can find a way into almost any HE army, and i would say that at least 2 would be necessary in both of the prior builds. Again, for the phoenixes frosts are the way to go, and always take sh over dragon princes.

My 2 cents.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:34 pm 
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Hi guys,

I am going to play my first game ever with my new elves on Friday. It's gonna be against a friend and I'm either gonna play his Vampires Counts, Spirit of the Forest Wood Elves or his Imperials. No Khaine magic.

I tried to come up with a list that could be fun and would allow me to try out some of my figs:

Lords:
Loremaster of Hoeth, Book of Hoeth, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Shoeld of Merwyn: 330 points

Core:
12 archers, musician; 130
11 archers, musician: 120

Special:

14 Phoenix Guard, Musician, Standard Bearer, I was thinking the mindrazer banner to get them more killy? 295 pts (I don't remember the cost for the Mindrazor) : 280

Rare: 2x Bolt Throwers: 140

Total: 1000pts

So the idea is to put the Loremaster in the Phoenix guard and use the flexibility of his magic rules along with the Book of Hoeth to snipe vampire characters (hopefully killing all opposing wizards), burn down tree spirits etc.

I am hoping that faced with the bolt throwers and the archers my opponent will need to get close and personal with the phoenix guard.

My big, big worry is that basically 2/3 of my army are in a 15 man big unit, with no support once it gets into close combat. Plus I have no warmachine hunter.

And was thinking about maybe switching the archers for Lothern Sea Guard to get the close combat support?

Hopefully you guys can help me out :p


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:42 pm 
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Odelis wrote:
Lords:
Loremaster of Hoeth, Book of Hoeth, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Shoeld of Merwyn: 330 points


This ofc depends on your opponent but I would dare to make assumption that not many player is going to field more than 2 characters in 1k game. Thus sword of anti-heroes might be waste of points. Giving him simple extra str or attack might be better in all cornerin test.

Odelis wrote:
Core:
12 archers, musician; 130
11 archers, musician: 120


With so small units I would leave the musician out. Swift reforming should be too much problem if you field them 4 wide and just wheel. If you go bigger unit then I would suggest adding the

Odelis wrote:
14 Phoenix Guard, Musician, Standard Bearer, I was thinking the mindrazer banner to get them more killy? 295 pts (I don't remember the cost for the Mindrazor) : 280


It is actually razor standard worth 45 points and it gives armour piercing. I love Phoenix guards and during my 80th games (allthough something like 55 were with 7th edition book) I think that 20-25 strong full command + razor standard is very ideal unit. I use 22 because that is the ammount of guards I own ;)

Allthough in 1k game there isn't much to squeese. I would probably leave another BT to home to get more bodies in this unit.

Odelis wrote:
And was thinking about maybe switching the archers for Lothern Sea Guard to get the close combat support?


Age old question about the hybrid choice. I (as I think most of Helf players) tend to leave seaguards without love as simple archers / spearmen are just better for the job. Seaguard just cost too much compared to archer.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:17 am 
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This is one of my 2400 point lists, just to give you an idea.

Characters
LM with talisman of preservation, scroll & sword of antiheroes
lvl 4 with golden crown and ruby ring
BSB with halberd and armour of destiny

Core
7 SH with shields, muso and champ
7 SH with shields, muso and champ
20 spears with FC and gleaming pennant
5 reavers with bows

Special
20 PG with FC and razor banner
15 PG with FC and banner of thew world dragon

Rare
7 sisters
7 sisters
RBT
Eagle with ASF


93 models and 2400 points exactly.


This is my 1500 point list

Characters
LM with talisman of preservation, scroll & sword of antiheroes
BSB with halberd and armour of destiny

Core
7 SH with shields, muso and champ
7 SH with shields, muso and champ
5 reavers with bows

Special
19 PG with FC and razor banner

Rare
6 sisters
RBT
Eagle


48 models and 1498 points.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:32 pm 
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Thanks both of you for your replies!

I will indeed switch one RBT for more PGs, I love those guys :p

Regarding archers vs spearmen, and shooting vs melee combat, I was thinking that at this point level shooting is much more devastating, but I feel like if he gets into contact I might lack sufficient punch.
Is the list balanced enough or just weak both in shooting and melee?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:36 pm 
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Odelis wrote:
Thanks both of you for your replies!

I will indeed switch one RBT for more PGs, I love those guys :p

Regarding archers vs spearmen, and shooting vs melee combat, I was thinking that at this point level shooting is much more devastating, but I feel like if he gets into contact I might lack sufficient punch.
Is the list balanced enough or just weak both in shooting and melee?


In terms of combat, there is almost no difference between archers and spears in combat, they are both S3 with a single attack, the only difference is the Spearmen having a 5+ armour save, which against anything that matters might as well be no save anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:13 pm 
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Odelis wrote:
Thanks both of you for your replies!

I will indeed switch one RBT for more PGs, I love those guys :p

Regarding archers vs spearmen, and shooting vs melee combat, I was thinking that at this point level shooting is much more devastating, but I feel like if he gets into contact I might lack sufficient punch.
Is the list balanced enough or just weak both in shooting and melee?


I've given up on archers for silver helms. I just run the spears as an adjustable filler that can take a magic banner. At 1,000 points i would run 2 units of 5 silver helms with musos. You might kill 1 with shooting and another with your stand and shoot, so lets say we have 4 silver helms fighting your unit of 12 archer 5 wide.

If I charge both units into your one unit of archers on turn 2, they should break in one turn, with the silver helms having the option of reforming &/or pursing any survivors. The best bit is that the 5 silver helms with a muso are only 125 points, you you can use them as an expendable redirector unit if needed.

Silver helms clear chaf as well as archers and can hunt artillery, I've found them indispensable.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:50 pm 
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If I follow this path, should I also maybe get rid of the second RBT (if it's alone it's kinda useless isn't it?) and replace it with another SH unit, or maybe a lvl 1 lore of high magic mage (to get the 3+ ward save on the pg?)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:48 am 
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Odelis wrote:
If I follow this path, should I also maybe get rid of the second RBT (if it's alone it's kinda useless isn't it?) and replace it with another SH unit, or maybe a lvl 1 lore of high magic mage (to get the 3+ ward save on the pg?)


1 RBT is fine. The 48" threat range is great for keeping single characters honest and disposing of enemy chaff and irritating flyers particularly.

I've never paid any attention to the idea of a lvl 1 just for the added ward save, you can give a character the ring of fury which will do the same thing.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:08 pm 
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Sooo first game with my epves was a disaster :p

He played his vampires, it should had been fairly straightforward for me: magic phase, snipe his necromancer general, blast the vargheist, watch the reat crumble.

My Loremaster of Hoeth, after centuries of training and the best gear he could get his hands on, irresistibly cast spirit leech, roller a 1 vs a 5 so nothing happened to the necromancer, then rolled a 3 on the fiasco table, then a 2, so basically disappeared in the Chaos Realms with half the phoenix guard. Half thevarmy lost before my opponent moved anything.

Needless to say the rest of the game was a slaughter :o

But the wtf moment on this spell was pretty hilarious and I got acquainted with the new v8 rules so it wasnt for nothing yay!
Next time I am gonna play a 2400 list against variois opponents, I was wondering if Alarielle was a good special character? In a White Lion bunker with BotWD and maybe avelorn and dunno what else :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Odelis wrote:
Sooo first game with my epves was a disaster :p

He played his vampires, it should had been fairly straightforward for me: magic phase, snipe his necromancer general, blast the vargheist, watch the reat crumble.

My Loremaster of Hoeth, after centuries of training and the best gear he could get his hands on, irresistibly cast spirit leech, roller a 1 vs a 5 so nothing happened to the necromancer, then rolled a 3 on the fiasco table, then a 2, so basically disappeared in the Chaos Realms with half the phoenix guard. Half thevarmy lost before my opponent moved anything.

Needless to say the rest of the game was a slaughter :o

But the wtf moment on this spell was pretty hilarious and I got acquainted with the new v8 rules so it wasnt for nothing yay!
Next time I am gonna play a 2400 list against variois opponents, I was wondering if Alarielle was a good special character? In a White Lion bunker with BotWD and maybe avelorn and dunno what else :)


Yeah, that is a traditional first game :D :D :D

In mine the other guy shot a unit skirmishers, who routed though the unit with my mage, who routed though my cavalry, who routed as well. 600 points out of 1,000 off the table on the first turn.

You had a plan which didn't work. That happens every game of warhammer to one side or the other so its no big deal. Don't worry too much about these things, that is how magic works. If you are paranoid for a bit then try the earthing rod, it at least allows you to re-roll the result of your miscast. I've miscast 5 times in one game with practically no consequences, so that will not always happen. And lets face it, magic is fun.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:02 pm 
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Oh I'm not giving up on magic. It's my favorite thing in the game and I quite love the randomness of it :p

I just hope I exhausted my IF on three dices then half the army being swallowed by a vortex thingy for the next few games :p

Regarding the loremaster, he is really awesome at this point level I think, but how does he fare at higher point levels? Compared to an archmage


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:11 am 
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Odelis wrote:
Oh I'm not giving up on magic. It's my favorite thing in the game and I quite love the randomness of it :p

I just hope I exhausted my IF on three dices then half the army being swallowed by a vortex thingy for the next few games :p

Regarding the loremaster, he is really awesome at this point level I think, but how does he fare at higher point levels? Compared to an archmage


The range of spells is glorious. if he was lvl 3 he would be completely broken. As it is he can cast fireballs at light cav, the boosted Shems at a monster and fry knights with searing doom, all on the same turn. I'd only run beasts, fire, metal or light on a archmage, probably light in a list with an LM in it.

There is an argument for giving him the book, but I've gotten by with a 4+ ward, scroll and big sword.

Life, death and shadow are considered the most powerful lores, but I've never had any luck rolling the right combination of spells with them, plus the ability to set things on fire is not to be under-rated.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:29 am 
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Thank you for your answers! I'll experiment with all the domain and see how it goes :D

What about High Magic, our own lore? If I remember correctly, back when I was playing the 6th edition armybook lores were usually better than the rulebook ones, but it seems that it's not the case anymore? (although increasing the ward saves of the phoenix guards seems awesome :D)

Other question, related to painting: anyone has pictures of the Nagarythe color scheme? I think it was fairly similar to the traditional dark elf one (dark purple and black?) but I am curious to see it on high elves


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:39 pm 
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Odelis wrote:
Thank you for your answers! I'll experiment with all the domain and see how it goes :D

What about High Magic, our own lore? If I remember correctly, back when I was playing the 6th edition armybook lores were usually better than the rulebook ones, but it seems that it's not the case anymore? (although increasing the ward saves of the phoenix guards seems awesome :D)

Other question, related to painting: anyone has pictures of the Nagarythe color scheme? I think it was fairly similar to the traditional dark elf one (dark purple and black?) but I am curious to see it on high elves


High is a bit spotty as a lore. It has some good spells but you will always end up with a couple that are not that useful.

Just google dark elves and look at the colours from Age of Reckoning. I largely ignore official schemes

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:27 am 
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Hello all,

I've been working on a new list, inspired from stuff I looked up around here.

I want to build a list around Alarielle, and I quite enjoyed how some people used her as part of a light coven with a big unit of white lions as I already own them.

I have a question though: what do the mages do once the unit is engaged in melee? They can't cast their lovely missiles anymore, and they are extremely vulnerable.

I was thinking about including a 10 man PG unit to bunker the mages so that they don't lose magic turns while Alarielle and her unit are engaged, but I am unsure about the practicality of it. How do people who play this type of list manage to get the mages to use their full potential?

Shooting wise I included 3 RBT and 2x5 Sisters, is it enough?

Thank you all in advance!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:11 pm 
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If you are interested to read my wall of text article about High Magic as main magic to support heavy hitting unit such as swordmasters / white lions / dragon princes viewtopic.php?f=66&t=68738

There is also a section "protecting the wizard" where I tell some small tricks how about the subject viewtopic.php?f=66&t=68738&p=900969#p900967

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:47 pm 
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Quote:
Hello all,

I've been working on a new list, inspired from stuff I looked up around here.

I want to build a list around Alarielle, and I quite enjoyed how some people used her as part of a light coven with a big unit of white lions as I already own them.

I have a question though: what do the mages do once the unit is engaged in melee? They can't cast their lovely missiles anymore, and they are extremely vulnerable.

I was thinking about including a 10 man PG unit to bunker the mages so that they don't lose magic turns while Alarielle and her unit are engaged, but I am unsure about the practicality of it. How do people who play this type of list manage to get the mages to use their full potential?

Shooting wise I included 3 RBT and 2x5 Sisters, is it enough?

Thank you all in advance!


I have some experience with playing a Coven (of Light) and can help here.

Normally, you'll want either a Seahelm to allow you to reform your mages out of combat or a bunker of Archers to jump all the characters into. The trick with the Seahelm is to reform the turn before combat and put your mages in the second rank (usually 3-5 wide) and when the enemy charges, go 1-2 wider than necessary. This will (nearly) maximize your attacks and also keep your mages relatively safe.

Misdirectors are also an option. You can force overrun paths into your Lions in such a way that your mages aren't in combat. 2 x 5 Sisters is really good for this, although I personally prefer the 4th Bolt Thrower, especially if you're not taking the Reaver Bow.

The traditional bunker is Lions because BotWD + Alarielle is so powerful, so I would stay way from spending points on Phoenix Guard as they'll just be wasted. As an aside, I would also strongly recommend a Loremaster instead of Alarielle; the added versatility he provides is better IMO. You'll notice the difference the most against 1+ Armor lists and Dark Elves; it's about equal against everything else, except against Dwarves. The list might look something like this:

Loremaster, Shield of the Merwyrm, Sword of Antiheroes, Scroll (Maybe Gem of Sunfire)
Archmage, Level Four, Lore of Light, Book of Hoeth
Mage Level One, Lore of Light
Lothern Sea Helm, Low kit / Reaver Bow / Swiftness Banner (preference)

5-7 Helms
2x 5 Reavers
24ish Archers

27ish White Lions, BotWD

5-6 Sisters
4 Bolt Throwers (or 3 and 2x 5 Sisters)
Frostheart

Hope that helps!

Axiem


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