2400 ETC - Ideas

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BGNLordHelmut
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2400 ETC - Ideas

#1 Post by BGNLordHelmut »

So I'm deciding to go with a super fast list for an upcoming 2400 ETC comp tourney, and I have the bulk of the list decided upon. However, I ended up with about 215 pts leftover and I'm struggling to figure out the best choice(s) to fill out those points and have the best benefit for the rest of the list. Interested in some ideas from everyone. I'll be getting a couple games in with this list this week as I have it now, but I want to test out any permutations to it so I can give other things a try.

Currently I have dragon princes filling out the extra points, but for 6 models at that price (with flaming for removing regen), they just don't do enough for my liking at this point, though again I need to get some games in to test them out.

Prince on Star Dragon (General)
Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Protection, Other Trickster's Shard, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Lion Cloak, Shield

Level 4, High Magic
Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon, Steed

Noble (BSB)
Great Weapon, Dragon Armor, Shield, Banner of the World Dragon, Steed, Barding

Noble
Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Steed, Barding

16 Silver Helms
Shields, Full Command

6 Reavers
Bows, Musician

6 Reavers
Bows, Musician

6 Dragon Princes
Banner of Eternal Flame, Full Command

Frostheart Phoenix

Great Eagle
Swiftsense

Great Eagle
Swiftsense
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John Rainbow
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#2 Post by John Rainbow »

Can you post a link to the actual ruleset you are currently using? Nice list idea BTW :wink:
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#3 Post by BGNLordHelmut »

Here's the comp restrictions for AR Draft 2 for ETC: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dzmopzrbpqte9 ... 2.pdf?dl=0

This is definitely derived from the list you ran at Winter Wars (and elsewhere). I like the style of it and after we chatted a bit I'm just interested in playing something faster to control pacing a bit more. I'm getting tired of playing with infantry most of the time and with hills blocking LoS in ETC comp, a star dragon is a bit safer. Granted I'm probably not going to play it as well as you will though :) I liked that you had two frosties in your list, that's a big deal in that army, but with ETC comp it's not possible without dropping BotWD, and that makes the dragon far less effective, and the bus far more vulnerable.

I'm just trying to figure out what best fills out that 215 pts. I would immediately default to bolt throwers but can't due to comp restrictions. Sisters are an option but I would likely lose those points every game, something I'm not interested in doing. Shadow Warriors are another option to potentially help clear out war machines and maybe march block or hold things up otherwise.
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John Rainbow
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#4 Post by John Rainbow »

Thanks for posting the comp. I've taken a look and a second Phoenix is definitely out (Frost that is). A fire bird could be an option and would certainly add some flexibility but obviously doesn't synergise as well with the rest of the list. I kind of like this idea though as it retains the 'core' ideology of the list i.e. very fast and mobile. It will also help against some of the mass horde armies.

Another couple of options that would also replace the 2nd frost with something similar would be an eagle noble or griffon noble. The eagle is the one I would likely go for and is actually something I was toying around with before to go with this list - before the event at AG. I would look at getting a decent AS on this guy and using him to either clear other small units or combo with the Prince in which case he can potentially be better than a frosty as he can accept a challenge and let the dragon lord go to town on the unit (this is the main reason I was considering him).

Just an FYI but the list was not really my idea either. Curu, myself and Malossar were all playing dragon lists for a while when the new HE book dropped and tbh, a lot of it is related to advice that Curu in particular gave me. I play a little differently to them and comp makes a difference too but I don't think there are all that many ways to run a competitive dragon list at the moment.

Having said this, you might also like to take a look at this list (below). It will play a lot differently to the one we have been discussing but Furion, Curu and a few others seem to think this is very powerful in the ETC format - I believe Furion is its original author. The list potentially has a lot more flexibility in that it can be very offensive or defensive but the dragon does have a huge target on its head here. ETC LoS rules help a lot with this though if you are careful in deployment and movement. This list might also suit your preference for infantry play a bit better.
Prince on Star Dragon: General, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lion Cloak, Sword of Might, Trickster's Shard, Talisman
of Preservation, Dragonhelm 635
Archmage: Lvl 4, High, Book of Hoeth 275
Noble: BSB 95
Mage: Lvl 1, Fire, Scroll 110

2*5 Silver Helms: Champion 115
25 Archer: FCG 280
5 Ellyrian Reaver: Spear, Champion 90

25 White Lions: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon 405

4* Bolt Thrower70
Total: 2400
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#5 Post by BGNLordHelmut »

I playtested this last night against an empire Inner circle bus with a runefanged GM. List looked something like this:

- Grand Master, Runefang
- BSB, TOTS, dawnstone
- lvl 4 heavens
- lvl 2 light
- ~16 IC knights
- Stank
- Hurricanum
- Capticus
- Unit of 4 Demis
- 6 IC knights
- 3 units pistoliers

Lost handily to this list, mainly because I'm getting back into competitive Warhammer and I'm rusty as hell, and also because I am learning how to use this list. My opponent is also quite good and knows his list as well as my own. Basically got the Phoenix stranded against demis, stank got a rear charge on it and broke the bird turn 3. He also won the chaff war as my Dragon Princes did nothing all game. Made me realize the value of adding some static shooting to the list, so I'm going to swap the DPs for two units of 9 and 8 sisters. Because he won that chaff war, he got the charge on my bus, and broke them. I just didn't manage my chaff as well as he did, and I've noticed that initially, having a Star Dragon makes you play either highly conservative because you're facing cannons, or overly aggressive because you think, "Hot damn this thing is powerful, I'm amazing and unstoppable!" And as you know that's far from the truth :)

Good learning experience though, and I think these Steam Tank + bus Empire lists are gonna be one of the tougher matchups I could draw, so it was a good test to play that right off the bat. Not going back to the drawing board, I think I'm gonna push through with this list and just tweak it for now. I like the one you posted too, if I find that this is still simply not working after a whole bunch of playtesting, I may revisit that in the future.

I'll keep posting results up here for this list as I get games. Planning on getting another one in early next week I hope!
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#6 Post by BGNLordHelmut »

Oh and in response to the eagle noble, while I think that's a great idea, because of ETC comp restrictions with characters and total # of points spent on heroes and lords combined, to add in an eagle noble I'd be over on my 5 choices. I'd have to basically cut the non-BSB noble out of the bus and find points elsewhere to fit it all.
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Andrei_Warrior
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#7 Post by Andrei_Warrior »

Prince has shield and great weapon right off the bat.
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#8 Post by Ladril Caledor »

Andrei_Warrior wrote:Prince has shield and great weapon right off the bat.
This is OK, I think, you just can't use both at the same time. In the first round he uses the Star Lance and shield combo, then in subsequent combat rounds he uses the Great Weapon but not the shield. He can still cause damage at S6, although he loses a point of armour save and ASF. Works well against tough opponents with armour, not so good against large numbers of weak opponents.
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#9 Post by BGNLordHelmut »

Ladril Caledor wrote:
Andrei_Warrior wrote:Prince has shield and great weapon right off the bat.
This is OK, I think, you just can't use both at the same time. In the first round he uses the Star Lance and shield combo, then in subsequent combat rounds he uses the Great Weapon but not the shield. He can still cause damage at S6, although he loses a point of armour save and ASF. Works well against tough opponents with armour, not so good against large numbers of weak opponents.
Yep, the point is to do as much damage as possible with those 4 prince attacks after the first round, especially since the dragon will be stubborn due to the BotWD sitting within 12".
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#10 Post by BGNLordHelmut »

So I did some playtesting and some tweaking, and after it all I think I've come up with the list I want to use that will help me get around some of the ETC restrictions. The last version just wasn't mixed arms enough for me; it lacked enough shooting, and the helm bus lacked enough combat punch, most notably against other bus lists like Empire. Yes, I should have a Frostheart or a Star Dragon in the flank but it might not be until my next turn that they make it in at times, and the bus has to be able to score enough wounds on the opposition to hold against something like a Runefanged GM or Karl Franz or even a nasty DE bus. Ideally I will be the one charging, but hey, it happens :) Anyway, this feels much more robust in each phase and I feel like I should be able to win the chaff war a lot better now with the added sisters and still having double soul quench (potentially).

Love to hear comments/suggestions/observations. Thanks guys!


Anointed on Flamespyre
Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane Gem, Other Trickster's Shard

Lvl 4 - High Magic
Khaine's Ring of Fury, steed

Noble (BSB)
Banner of the World Dragon, Halberd, Heavy Armor, Shield, steed, barding

Noble
Star Lance, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Shield, steed, barding

Noble
Sword of Anti-Heroes, Heavy Armor, Shield, steed, barding

15 Silver Helms
Shield, Full command

6 Reavers
Bows, Champ, Standard

6 Reavers
Bows, Champ

9 Sisters
9 Sisters

Eagle
Eagle

Frostheart
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John Rainbow
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#11 Post by John Rainbow »

Not sure on the halberd as it reduces your save and the sisters stick out as the only foot unit. They are easy points to get and don't do enough to warrant their inclusion IMHO. I like the overall concept though.
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#12 Post by BGNLordHelmut »

Agree on the halberd, but no points for anything 1-handed that will do dmg. I could drop it entirely since his entire purpose is to survive, not deal damage.

Also agree on the sisters, but unfortunately there's no comp space to add BTs. I can at least move them 5" a turn and shoot to keep them somewhat out of reach, but aside from those, I'm not sure what other additions to the list would have enough of an impact to justify the points and still stay in compliance.
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Andros123
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#13 Post by Andros123 »

Very interesting list. I'm also preparing for an upcoming ETC event, and I'm also planning on either the star dragon prince or annointed on a flamespyre.

For your recent list I have some observations/questions.
- Are you really going without a scroll first of all?
- As for the sisters I don't think you should be too afraid of their safety. Your opponent will probably not be wasting shots on them while 2 phoenixes are flying around.
- I think the crown of command will solve a lot of your problems with the silver helm bus in the star dragon list.

I have come up with this list, which doesn't have the banner:

Archmage
Dispell scroll, Crown of command, Talisman of endurance

Prince on a star dragon
TOTS, Dragon helm, Golden crown

Prince on barded steed
Giant blade, Enchanted shield, downstone

Noble BSB on barded steed
Charmed shield, luckstone, ogre blade

14 silver helms

3x5 Reavers

3x bolt throwers

Frost phoenix

Under ETC I'm really starting to question whether the banner is worth it. What do you think?
I figured I don't need the banner since I can regrow lost silver helms or hopefully throne of vines is up when miscasts happen.
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#14 Post by BGNLordHelmut »

Andros123 wrote: For your recent list I have some observations/questions.
- Are you really going without a scroll first of all?
- As for the sisters I don't think you should be too afraid of their safety. Your opponent will probably not be wasting shots on them while 2 phoenixes are flying around.
- I think the crown of command will solve a lot of your problems with the silver helm bus in the star dragon list.
I rarely run a scroll. Though in ETC world, where 6-dicing bombs isn't happening, it may be more useful than the normal comp restrictions I tend to see. I'll have to give that some thought.

I agree about the sisters, and I'll be playtesting the list tonight again with them in the list, so we'll see how they do.

As for the BotWD being worth three ETC choices, I'm not sure yet. It offers so much protection to the nobles and their unit, especially against tooled up characters, which is going to be their primary target if I can help it. Obviously with no star dragon it's now solely a defensive item, but the defense it provides is huge. I need to get more games with and without it to see if it's worth the 3 choices or not.
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Browncastle
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#15 Post by Browncastle »

Hei, I just had a game on universal using the new draft, we only played 2000p, but here Is almost the list I used at 2400p
Archmage
4++, crown of command, power scroll

Mage(beast/high?!)
obsidian trinket, dispel scroll

Hand maiden
PoS, Reaverbow

Noble.BSB
Dragonarmour, shield, BS#, BotWD, lance

Noble
Ogreblade, Dragonhelm, dragonarmour, BS#, shield

Noble
Starlance, enchanted shield, ToTS, Dragonarmour, BS#

10 Silverhelms
FCG, Shield

10 Silverhelms
FCG, Shield

5 Reavers

5 shadow warriors

5 shadow warriors

5 shadow warriors

frost phoenix

20 Sisters of Avelorn
The Idea with this list is to have BotWD and Archmage in Sisters, everything else can be sacrified, if I need to. It can both push and defend, depending on opponent.
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#16 Post by BGNLordHelmut »

Is the BotWD BSB mounted? If so how is he in with the sisters? Or did I read that wrong? :)
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Browncastle
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Re: 2400 ETC - Ideas

#17 Post by Browncastle »

No I keep him mounted, could of course drop the barded steed, for a LSH or noble bsb, but I went for the mounted version this time. Hellcannons and skullcannons have magical attacks so 2 of the warmachine armies you can meet doesnt worry me. Against dwarfs you could put BSB and archmage in reavers behind LoS blocking terrain. After I posted the list, I started writing one with 2 princes, so this list inst carved in stone, its something Ive been working on for a while though.
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