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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:20 pm 
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Location: UK
Hi there, I'm Elhier.

I have been playing HE for years but have only posted a few times on this site. In the past I have run a mainly infantry list with which I have become very competent and have won many games. HOWEVER!!! I think it is time for a change! With the 50% lords and heroes now standard dor everyone I had a wicked idea, sparked in part by a 2013 ETC list I saw.

3 DRAGONS!!!!!!

Using proxies I played with a 2 dragon 1 phoenix list a few days ago and was extremely pleased with how it played, the ability to turn those chickens into dragons, however, was extremely tempting!

List: 2483/2500


Lords (1218pts):

Archmage (590pts)
Level 4 Wizard (35pts), Lore of Life, Moon Dragon (300pts)
Magic Items (70pts)
(BRB) Earthing Rod (25pts), (BRB) Talisman of Preservation (45pts)

Prince (628pts)
Shield (3pts), Star Dragon (390pts)
Magic Items (95pts)
(AB) Golden Crown of Atrazar (10pts), (BRB) Armour of Destiny (50pts), (BRB) Ironcurse Icon (5pts), (BRB) Sword of Anti-Heroes (30pts)

Heroes (425pts):

Dragon Mage of Caledor (425pts)
Dragon Armor (10pts), Level 2 Wizard (35pts), Sun Dragon
Magic Items (30pts)
(BRB) Charmed Shield (5pts), (BRB) Dispel Scroll (25pts)

Core (630pts):

Archers (120pts)
12x Archer (120pts), Longbow

Archers (120pts)
12x Archer (120pts), Longbow

Archers (120pts)
12x Archer (120pts), Longbow

5x Ellyrian Reavers (90pts)
Elven Steed, Light Armor, Musician (10pts)
5x Spear Only

5x Ellyrian Reavers (90pts)
Elven Steed, Light Armor, Musician (10pts)
5x Spear Only

5x Ellyrian Reavers (90pts)
Elven Steed, Light Armor, Musician (10pts)
5x Spear Only

Rare (210pts):

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Light Armor
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Light Armor
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Light Armor

Thoughts and Feelings:

Archmage: I have put the earthing rod on the archmage as i not 100% sure about running life over death, aslo I may not role throne. My reasons for this are that with the likely increase of character spam in my uncomped meta, units will most likely have magic resitance and ward saves, making death snipes inefective. However, dwellers ignores wards, thus it will remain effective way to kill all those characters that will be rumbling around. Life also provides we with a handy heal and getting regen is nothing to sniff at, its no spirit leach, but then putting wounds back on my star dragon is.

Prince: Sword of anti heroes to capitalise on all those characters. No tricksters shard, I just prefer the crown and iron curse, but if you think differently then please convince me!! I had thought about only taking a moon dragon on this guy, mainly to save points, but I couldnt think of a massively better use for those points so I just left it.

Dragon Mage: Love this guy, flaming sword and the potential for a cheap pie plate is always nice, he counters the main thing this army cant deal with, very large units of stubborness (technical term). When the pie plate or cage does not role then he can clear chaff with his fireball.

Reavers: BEST UNIT IN THE HE BOOK!!! Ok, I may over exagerate a little, but these guys have won me games time and time again, core fast cav is filth ;).

Archers: Chaff clearence and war machine snipping. These guys are the unit I am least sure about, normally I fill core with reavers and a 14 to 13 strong helm bus (without BotWD) but I get the feeling that having chaff clearence that can also be thrown away or used to just bait the enemy forward is a good thing. If you think there is a better option here let me know!!

Bolt Throwers: Not a lot to say here... good for killing all that pesky monstrous cav and knight busses. Could be convinced to change them if given a good enough reason too!

Final Word!!

So this list is something fun that I want to try and make work all thoughts and feelings are welcome!! Once i've played a few games I will be sure to include some photos and synopsis.

BRING ON THE SCRUTINY!!!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:34 am 
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It might be hard to say how well a list like this will do right now by most guys. I think that it will be one of those win hard lose hard kinda lists. I do think its cool though because of all that defense stacked up on the lords, which is great, because everyone is going to be gunning for them.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:23 pm 
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Posts: 278
I love the concept!

I would like to see both a bsb and the banner of the world dragon in the list to enhance survivability and reduce the likelihood of disastrous outcomes(stardragon prince challenged out, beaten on static res and being run down for instance).

Otherwise I think it's super cool!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:53 pm 
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I would really try to squeeze the OTS on your Prince. Helps out the dragon immensely to kill those tough characters. Allows you to handily kill the "unkillable" BSB in 2 rounds of combat.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:05 am 
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In uncomped meta this list will have problems based on the fact that you have only 1 combat unit (Prince on Star Dragon). The Dragonmage whilst somewhat fighty isn't that great in combat. You really need Frostie as the -1S is big.

Don't think this list synergies well as it's trying to fit as many dragons in as possible but gimping yourself.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:36 pm 
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I like the concept.

To improve the list I would do a few things:

1. Replace the Archmage with another tricked out Prince.

2. Downgrade the first Princes Star Dragon to a Moon.

3. Use the saved points from above to invest into a mounted lvl 2 Mage.

4. Transfer the points sunk into archers into Silver Helms to meet the core requirements.

5. Remove the bolt throwers with a unit of dragon princes, (they could have banner of the world dragon if the Mage and Princes are squeezed a tiny bit, 20 points). Bolt throwers will give you enough for 5 and a command with some spare.

I'll give you my reasoning.

66% of your points is sunk into dragons, another ~15 into light cav chaff, and the rest, ~20% in range. Depending in who you're fighting, it'll likely be difficult to impossible to protect this soft archers and bolt throwers; they are like free victory points for your enemy. With 2/3 of your points in dragons you will have to get them into combat to earn those points back. This will limit the opportunities for the ranged units anyways (as well as any protection support).

Silver Helms are a nice alternative to the archers. They'll fill out your core and they'll be able to keep up with the dragons to contribute to combat resolution for your dragons and to clean up some of the mess. They can hit hard on the charge and are relatively tough with their 2+ save.

The bolt throwers aren't terrible, but they are soft and vulnerable in this list, and even if left untouched their opportunities will still be limited. You could trade on these points to go a long way towards a 5 strong unit of dragon princes with command and the banner of the world dragon. You would have ~20 more heavy cavalry if you made these changes. And the banner of the world dragon will buff the dragons besides keeping the unit alive from magic.

Also a note on the Archmage: replacing him with a Prince will save points and make him hit much harder on combat. It will easily make up for the difference between the star and moon on the first Prince. I assume the main motivation was to heal the dragons:

In this small of a game there will be relatively few serious threats to these dragons. And the lvl 2 wizard can help heal your dragons anyways, from tgr safety of the rear.

The concern over dispel ability is a factor. But the 2 lvl 2 mages should be enough. Besides if enemy magic is a threat then their wizards SHOULD be your dragons initial targets.

I heard someone once say that trying to make a competitive and balanced HE list is difficult and almost always destined to fail. This is because if your army is half shooty and half combat, then your enemy will only ever have to face half of your army. The recommended changes make this a hard hitting combat list.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:30 am 
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My comments are directly against the initial list as the comments others have posted are valid and I want to give you an alternate point of view. That being said, given the theme (and my personal love of dragons) I am not going to suggest changing the Star/Moon/Sun theme.

1. I would consider Death over what you have suggested. Again as you said this does depend on how tooled up your oppositions characters tend to be. That being said there are only so many decent ward saves you can give an army. An alternate approach is to give the mage the Fencers Blade and a Potion of Toughness. This would allow charging into combat if needed with little fear of dying. Yes only for one turn but you shouldn't be charging them in unless you break the opposition.

2. On that, breaking is the biggest issue you have. Terror is great but I also play an all goblin army and my units of 35 (minimum) night goblins will have you sitting there for ages. While I like the Archers, given you like the Ellyrion Reavers so much I would maybe suggest either grouping the Archers or trading them for Spearmen. The option of having some ranks can be invaluable.

3. The Archer role of chaff clearing can be done by the bolt throwers. So can the war machine snipping so while useful I think this role is covered meaning they can be dropped if needed. I like them but again, ranks are good and steadfast is your greatest enemy. I don't think you need to switch to spearmen but one unit of archers would be better than three I think. Also flaming swording a mass unit of archers is really fun and scares opponents.

4. Do not consider reducing the Moon Dragon to a Sun Dragon. The threat of a charge is one of the most powerful things in warhammer and a Moon Dragon charge is for some reason infinitely scarier than a Sun Dragon charge (OK, rightly so but moving on).

5. I would love to see some Eagles in the list. Not for re-direct but for war machine stalling. You don't want to have to send a Dragon to kill a war machine unless it is the final turn but at the same time you don't want it shooting for 6 turns. I have a feeling that a few eagles may be able to stall them as your Ellyrion Reavers I imagine will be kept busy elsewhere.

6. Love the Sword of Anti-Heroes. Most under-rated weapon in the game (even before end times).

The army is themed and so you know the strengths and weaknesses. I would say having the Archmage being able to survive a round of combat will be critical in many games as the Dragon is an expensive way to move 20". About the only other suggestion I could give is trying to reduce everything by a tiny bit. For example changing the Talisman of Preservation to a Talisman of Endurance. Armour of Destiny to Armour of Fortitude and seeing what you could do with the extra points. It may not get you anyway but the extra points might help you get some stuff to stall war machines. Also keep in mind how a cannon works, if it fails to wound a model it stops. Suddenly a unit of Ellyrion Reavers with a flank exposed to a cannon might just save the dragon.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:58 pm 
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Love the theme of the list. I was going to post my ideas but Catalus already wrote everything I was going to write! I might try something similar, this looks like so much fun...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:39 pm
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One thing you could do is drop the RBT's and the Musicians from the Reavers (fast cavalry don't really need this) and add in a Frost Phoenix.

Your Prince on Star Dragon is vulnerable to Searing Dooms with only a 4+ Ward while with Dragon Armour he has a 2+ save vs. fire based attacks.

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