2500pts Loremaster & Phoenix Guard List

[Sinsigel]

So, it has been nearly a year since I've never used special infantry(or core infantry other than archers) in games.
During the last year I've been using cavalry heavy lists since I was so tired of seeing special infantry erased by 13th spell.
However, during the last full year I've only had a single game with skavens and even then I played the game with my dwarfs army.
What, then, is the point of running cavalry lists out of fear for skaven, when I virtually play no games against them?

And so I decided to pick up some infantry and play in a different game. After all, I believe it is another time for major list change.
However, I used White Lions too much for several months after new HE book came out.
They are good, hitty infantry. No doubts on that. The emergence of ASF elves of all kind however meant white lions are seriously
hammered by new 'counters'(DE warlocks, witch elves, WE wild riders, etc.). And they are still pathetic in terms of CC defence.
So I decided to take phoenix guard. And the Loremaster of Hoeth, whose versatility I deemed very useful especially when supporting PG.

Lords : 609pts
Prince(Halberd, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Endurance)
Loremaster of Hoeth(Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation)

Heroes : 295pts
Noble(BSB, Dragon Armour, Barded Elven Steed, Star Lance, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Potion of Foolhardiness)
Mage(Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Opal Amulet) - High Magic

Core : 631pts
10 Archers(Musician)
12 Silver Helms(Shields, Full Command)
5 Silver Helms(Shields, Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)

Special : 565pts
28 Phoenix Guard(Full Command, Razor Standard)
5 Shadow Warriors

Rare : 400pts
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
10 Sisters of Avelorn

2,500pts

I noticed that quite many players using lists similar to above gave BotWD to BSB.
It does provide good protection to silver helms(the delivery mean for hitty characters), but I fear there are quite many sniping maneaters and waystalkers nearby.
My list also don't invest heavily on mounted characters to push the fragile BSB to 2nd ranks, so BotWD BSB doesn't seem to fit.

Another point I've been pondering is the Opal amulet for secondary mage.
I intended to give the secondary mage a good chance to survive first~ second round of combat so that he can give another high magic buff to PG.
However, obsidian Trinket for extra MR also look appealing. Given that I also face High Magic lizardmen often, the trinket also looks good.
Of course, a few games would teach me what is better for me.

[SpellArcher]

Looks pretty solid Sinsigel.

Did you consider mounting the High mage?

[Sinsigel]

Looks pretty solid Sinsigel.

Did you consider mounting the High mage?

The high magic mage is in the list to give boost to PG, the main powerhouse of the list.
Besides in my opinion, the mage has to be lv2 at least, and should have ring of fury to maximize high magic lore attribute.
Even more so considering silver helms have no inherent ward save unlike dragon princes.

That means more points(some 40~50pts) invested on squishy mage who is in a core cavalry that is meant to be supporting unit.
In addition, the high magic mage has to consume fair amount of dice to boost up silver helms' ward save to significant level.
In the list where loremaster should be using most of the dice, leaving 1~2 dice for single boost to ward save, this doesn't seem promising.

[SpellArcher]

Comparing the points costs of PG+ Loremaster to Helms + Prince/Noble there is not that much difference Sinsigel. Plus that is the General and BSB in there. While the PG unit is important, I feel the Helm unit is more so. This is the unit that will be sent forward aggressively to kill enemy units, the M5 PG not so much. Most Helm Buses these days are 15-18 models strong because players have found that an enemy will target them with all his heavy shooting/magic. Where you get a list with fewer, such as Seredain's, a character like the mage can really help to enhance survivability. He can be deployed in the second rank and given a defensive item if desired, Fury Ring is not essential IMHO. You don't have to get a 4++ up every turn, just give those character Wards (and Ironcurse Icon) a slight boost against magic and war machines. He's not bad in the infantry but I feel they won't be the enemy's primary target.

[Sinsigel]

Comparing the points costs of PG+ Loremaster to Helms + Prince/Noble there is not that much difference Sinsigel. Plus that is the General and BSB in there. While the PG unit is important, I feel the Helm unit is more so. This is the unit that will be sent forward aggressively to kill enemy units, the M5 PG not so much. Most Helm Buses these days are 15-18 models strong because players have found that an enemy will target them with all his heavy shooting/magic. Where you get a list with fewer, such as Seredain's, a character like the mage can really help to enhance survivability. He can be deployed in the second rank and given a defensive item if desired, Fury Ring is not essential IMHO. You don't have to get a 4++ up every turn, just give those character Wards (and Ironcurse Icon) a slight boost against magic and war machines. He's not bad in the infantry but I feel they won't be the enemy's primary target.

Your argument is very convincing. I will try what you've suggested.

My only worry is that the silver helm bus with three characters(general, BSB, mage) will be too vulnerable to dwellers below.
In my gaming environment players use no comps at all, so it will be even more devastating.
I can at least save characters with Wyssans but it's still unnerving.

[Sinsigel]

Below is the revised list. Comments are welcome.

Lords : 606pts
Prince(Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Endurance)
Loremaster of Hoeth(Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation)

Heroes : 340pts
Noble(BSB, Dragon Armour, Barded Elven Steed, Star Lance, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Ironcurse Icon)
Mage(Elven Steed, Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Opal Amulet) - High Magic

Core : 631pts
10 Archers(Musician)
12 Silver Helms(Shields, Full Command)
5 Silver Helms(Shields, Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)

Special : 550pts
27 Phoenix Guard(Full Command, Razor Standard)
5 Shadow Warriors

Rare : 372pts
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
8 Sisters of Avelorn

2,499pts

[SpellArcher]

Like the list.

I agree about Dwellers but this is an issue even without the mage and the General and BSB are more important. He might cast it on the PG because it's one of the few things that ignores the 4++. Wildform is a good idea. Otherwise I guess scroll and get into combat ASAP.