New Player 2500 Point MSU

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ringthorn1
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:04 am

New Player 2500 Point MSU

#1 Post by ringthorn1 »

Hello everybody,
After some reading on the forum, I decided to go a different route than my previously posted list (Thanks Swordmaster). Anyway, I would appreciate any advice you guys would have on the list that I have planned.
Archmage
-Level 4, Shadow, Book Of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation
Mage
-Level 2, High Magic, Talisman of Protection, Dispel Scroll
5 Ellyrian Reavers
-Musician, Bows & Spears
5 Ellyrian Reavers
-Musician, Bows & Spears
15 Lothern Sea Guard
-Full Command, Shields
15 Lothern Sea Guard
-Full Command, Shields
5 Shadow Warriors
10 White Lions of Chrace
-Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 White Lions of Chrace
-Full Command, Gleaming Pennant
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor
-Musician
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor
-Musician
19 Phoenix Guard
Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon
Great Eagle
Great Eagle
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
5 Sisters of Avelorn
I want to put the Lvl 2 in the Phoenix guard. I need some advice where to put the Archmage in this army. Besides that, any constructive criticism is appreciated.
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: New Player 2500 Point MSU

#2 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi ringthorn1!

Just a few comments to give you some food for thought. Just remember that there is no one way to play with any army list and part of fun is trying to find your own unique approach.

I see you have not included BSB at all. It means you will be at greater risk with various Ld based tests. Apart from obvious stubborn or steadfast or panic tests you will always take in your games, there are also important swift reform or fear/terror tests. In my opinion BSB is the most important model in your army but if you decided to go without him, you need to play knowing that risks you are going to take may be at worse odds than if you had him nearby. Having said that it would be interesting to see if he is as mandatory as I think he is!

LSG are very flexible but at the same time not so obvious to use. Sure, if you successfully cast Miasma to lower WS of the enemy they fight, Withering to make their T lower and more likely to be wounded or simply Mindrazor your opponent, then they can be a very dangerous combat unit on their own. The problem is your enemy knows that too and you might not be able to get these spells through. Not to mention that you need the plan in case you don't get them in the first place. It is worth trying but as with lack of BSB, you need to have a good idea how to use them without magical support. Their shorter bow range also means they can have to be used in a more risky manner.

I have found out that White Lions have two problem when carrying Banner of Eternal Flame. First, as soon as your opponents knows they have it he will move his monsters with regeneration abilities away. White Lions may have difficult task to accomplish if they are to catch them. Second, they are still subject to thunder stomp if your monster survives their attack. Because of these reasons I prefer Dragon Princes to take over monster hunting duty. They have lower S but they keep their re-rolls to hit, are faster so it is more difficult for the enemy to escape (even flying monsters) and they cannot be stomped at all.

You should be flexible with where you put your characters in general. That PG unit looks like a great bunker and more often than not it will provide you with necessary protection. Because of that it may immediately tell your opponent where you characters are going to be. You can do two things. Keep PG until the very last and place them where it is the best for the unit and both wizards. Or do not necessary place the wizards there at all. Sure, you might lose the chance to boos their ward save with High Magic but it might be safer with some other units. You can even use the fact that PG looks as the most obvious choice for character placement and fool your opponent.

Of course if you don't have the wizards with PG it means they will be less protected so you need to calculate the risks well.

I hope that is of some help!

Good luck with your MSU games and come back with some tales of battles fought!

Cheers!
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Nicene
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Re: New Player 2500 Point MSU

#3 Post by Nicene »

I don't have my book in front of me, but isn't Talisman of Protection the 30-point one? That would make your mage kit illegal. Or maybe it's the 15-point one. At any rate, I recommend switching that to Golden Crown of Atrazar. It's better protection for 2-wound models, in my opinion (especially since you're unlikely to boost his ward save much with this list).

I think Shadow is a solid lore choice for MSU-MMU type armies. You need hexes more than augments, after all.

That PG unit is definitely a mighty unit! Do you think BOTWD is necessary or would Discipline/swiftness/razor be more useful (and economical)?

Command groups:

I think your LSG champs are unnecessary. I would rather see standards on thr reavers! I've been trying this recently for MSU (where the unit becomes a combat unit many times) and the combat res can really help their roles as chaff duelists and warmachine hunters. Swordmaster would probably disagree with me here, since he sacrifices his reavers so aggressively--why donate 35 extra points?

I'd also rather see standards for your DPs than champs for your lions on such small units.

LSG: I'm really skeptical about this unit in numbers less than 25, but I'd have to hear your report on their performance!
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=61399]my MSU army list/battle reports[/url]

[quote="Nyeave"]Omg it's a parrot chariot - a parriot... :D[/quote]
Ferny
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Re: New Player 2500 Point MSU

#4 Post by Ferny »

I don't really have anything new to say beyond what's already been said, but I'll say it anyway :P .

Firstly, I think this is a good looking MSU list...

...but I would definitely find space for a BSB in it. In my view he is more important than the scroll for MSU and I'd do a fairly straight switch with the mage to buy it, but you could sacrifice a unit or reduce your PG block to MSU to afford it depending on how you plan to play the army. Including a BSB by hook or by crook is the only major change I would suggest.

Regarding LSG, I ummed and ahhed about them. Swordmaster includes a unit in his list and mine was based on his (largely, also some cribbing from Nicene!). In the end I decided against it because I'd rather spend the extra points on archers, but that said I think this is a minor decision.

I don't have strong views on the commands, like the sea guard, I think we can potentially be flexible with how we treat them.

As a semi-counter to Swordmaster's comments about flaming lions/dragons, if you operate with a closed list you can pretty much own the deployment phase and so you can place your lions to counter regen threat, and they might even be tempted to try to finish off such a small unit and engage it in combat (perhaps!). However, if they have flying/are fast then they could re-deploy easily enough and avoid the threat. Lions also have the advantage over DPs for clearing out a building, which is further helped with flaming. While I love flaming lions as a hard counter to regen, in the end I tend to give the flaming banner to DPs myself (especially in MSU) for the reasons Swordmaster stated.

Finally, with character placement, I think you have a lot of flexibility with MSU. When you play with only 2-3 foot blocks then you do need to have a (flexible!) idea of where they might sit as it affects how aggressively you move up with combat units, the range you sit your archers at, potentially even deployment if you need a bunker but your mage is the hard counter to something...and with so few units/placement options, having an idea of whether your mage will likely be sitting back or forced forwards is useful (even if you revise plans for each battle, and indeed within battles - in fact, I think both are a must). But in MSU you have the luxury of options - you can really hop your mage from unit to unit, moving it progressively further back from the front-line as required.

Caveat: I've so far only played one game with my MSU force (and sadly my game tonight is 1,700 vs 1,900 dwarves and I'm too chicken to give it a go under those odds, so it'll be another week til I get the chance to air my list), but both Nicene and Swordmaster have a proven positive record with the MSU approach so their advice should be pretty solid :).
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Re: New Player 2500 Point MSU

#5 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

I like having champions in LSG, Archers or Swordmasters so that they can potentially stop some powerful character for a turn or two, in particular when he is alone. He cannot refuse a challenge then and you are steadfast so that you have good chances to hold. Even more so with BSB nearby.

I would not mind giving banners to light troops but it is more about points I would need to find for them! I sometimes sacrifice my reavers but they are not entering the battle with that mission in mind. They are simply fast enough to do it more efficiently and also when I lose eagles. Bottom line is, however, to create a situation when I don't have to sacrifice them at all!

The presence of Sea Guard will always be questioned and suggestions to change it would always be there. But I would encourage people to give them a go even if my new list is going to have none. I simply think they are very good flexible unit but suffer from the fact they are not there to kill powerful enemies. Hence, they role and impact is different.

I also want to stress out that whatever I write is just an observation and reasoning I give is simply something that works for me. It may work for others too but does not have to. The great thing is that you can try it and either keep it or get rid of it. As long as you enjoy playing in particular way it all that matters. Experience is helpful with providing real game situations when something worked or didn't. But at the same time fresh look on the same subject is often provided by people who are not yet constrained by the very same experience.

Cheers!
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High Elves MSU - Observations
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ringthorn1
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:04 am

Re: New Player 2500 Point MSU

#6 Post by ringthorn1 »

So what would you guys recommend as a load out for a BSB? Should he be mounted to get to key areas better or should he walk?
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Re: New Player 2500 Point MSU

#7 Post by Ferny »

I wouldn't put him on a horse. Mosy of your list is infantry so he can hop between them to where he's needed. On a horse he's vulnerable to being sniped except with a unit, where he restricts their movement as they babysit him (reavers would lose fast cav status and DPs should hit hard enough already).

My default would be to have him on foot with reaver bow, potion of strength, dragon armour and either enchanted shield or charmed shield & halberd (with a preference for the former, but that's down to personal taste I think). However, I really like Nicene's build which is as above but charmed shield, lance and mounted on an eagle. It's more ballsy, more risky, but also has more opportunities to influence the battle IMO. I haven't quite been brave enough yet but I will try this someday!
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