2400 Chaos Dwarfs

[Curu Olannon]

With the new Dwarf models out (which are AWESOME!) I`m seriously considering to start Chaos Dwarfs as a third army. WoC hasn`t gotten much love recently as I`ve played exclusively HE, but anyways for now this is just an experiment. If I settle on a list I like I might pick up the models

The idea behind the army is to create a fairly typical gunline. The problem with CD gunlines is that they struggle with cannons, i.e. they can get outshot. This is a terrible prospect for an M3 army with ~800 points in war machines, as this can quickly mean up to a 15-5 loss without being able to do anything. I`ve taken some steps to mitigate this, for example the Deathshrieker rocket and Dreadquake mortar (which both have a fairly good chance of seriously hurting a war machine with Daemonsmith re-rolls). I`ve chosen to leave the K`daii destroyer at home as I believe anyone who`s ever met one can play perfectly against it: frenzy, unstable and flaming attacks is a terrible prospect if you`re up against a strong player. Furthermore, it`s a huge points sink which means less points in guns. Anyways, here goes:

Metal Sorceror Prophet: Crown of Command, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Endurance, Earthing Rod = 395
Metal Sorceror: Chalice of Blood and Darkness = 145
Infernal Castellan, BSB: Dragonhelm, Talisman of Preservation, Sword of Might, Shield = 207
Khan, Wolf, Light Armour, Shield = 56
Khan, Wolf, Dragonbane Gem, Light Armour, Shield = 61
Characters: 865

27 Infernal Guard, Full Command, Great Weapons = 437
25 Infernal Guard, Full Command, Lichebone Pennant = 347
Core: 784

Iron Daemon, Hellbound = 310
Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher = 100
Magma = 145
Dreadquake mortar = 195
Machines: 750

Total: 2399

The list is meant to abide by ETC restrictions (the most recent draft points in this direction). As mentioned above, I believe cannons to be a big problem. Under ETC, only 2 armies can bring 2+ cannons: Dwarfs and Empire. The first have a huge problem in the Iron Daemon, if they don`t deal with it it will wreak havoc in their lines. This buys the rest of the artillery time to hopefully silence the cannons. In light of this, I actually view Dwarfs as a favourable matchup. That leaves Empire, which I actually believe is the worst matchup for this list: however Metal magic is really strong against them (especially with the Chalice) so I don`t think this is too horrible either.

One would think that hordes are a problem for this list. I find that CD are deceivingly strong against hordes: the Iron Daemon is a monster and the rest of the war machines are perfectly capable of tearing huge holes in any infantry formation with ease, especially with Daemonsmith re-rolls. Furthermore, the infantry blocks are incredibly hard to shift: they are both stubborn (at least as long as General + BSB are alive) and Glittering Scales/Blades of Aiban make them a lot stronger.

The General has a 2+/5++ and some miscast protection while the BSB has 2+/4++. I would`ve wanted to include the Dawnstone but I can`t do this without compromosing too much. The Khans are around as diverters and one has a 2++ vs flaming just because it`s cheap utility.

[Chracian]

I think the new dwarf models are a good match to the chaos dwarf models in terms of how they look. I'd get the infernal command group for the two blocks of infantry to make them more chaos-y but you might want to look at just using infernal guard for the standard troops anyway seeing as they aren't much more expensive and using the dwarf models for the great weapon option.

Your character set-up might be better like this:
Sorcerer-prophet: crown of command, talisman of preservation, enchanted shield, = 385
BSB: mask of the furnace, shield, dawnstone = 197

This gives both 2+/4++, with the bsb having rerollable 2+

You could probably drop the crown of command if your infantry goes five wide as they'll usually be steadfast anyway, freeing up points for the earthing rod.

I wouldn't bother with the dreadquake. A hellcannon is a much better option, and can use the daemonsmith's reroll abilities as well. Can also be let off the leash once it's done it's job of shooting stuff.

[Curu Olannon]

I`ll likely just kit-bash everything from Dwarf sprues

I hadn`t considered the Mask of the Furnace but it is of course a brilliant choice here. However, Castellan cannot take more than 75 points of magic items so it has to go on the Sorceror Prophet if I want the re-roll as well. I`ll keep it in mind and propose a new item layout, I guess the Earthing Rod isn`t really crucial.

I view the Crown of Command as crucial, you never know when you could need that stubborn. The infantry + characters are worth so many points: I`d rather not take any chances.

The Dreadquake Mortar is included in place of the Hellcannon because of ETC - discussions regarding CD seem to make Hellcannon less attractive. If it doesn`t pan out this way I`ll likely go for the Hellcannon instead

[Chracian]

Good points, I'd forgotten about the 75 points of magic items on the castellan. I'm not familiar with the etc comp, but if the hellcannon won't fit, then fair enough. I'm not convinced that the dreadquake is good enough for the points though. Have you considered including some bull centaurs? For the same points as the dreadquake, you could have a small flanking unit. Great weapons and the gleaming pennant are probably best.

Have you been on the chaos dwarf forum? There are some excellent players on there and superb advice on convertions.

[Curu Olannon]

Basically, by the looks of it, the Hellcannon counts as 2 war machines (thus you have to remove another). As I stated above, I believe the worst matchups for this list includes cannons, and by removing a war machine I lose a lot of my utility in these matchups. The draft isn`t complete yet though so I`ll have to see where they land I`ll make a visit to the CD forums, but I`m guessing what I have in mind isn`t really that common since the new Dwarfs don`t really look CDish nor have they been out long enough for anyone else to do the same yet.

[Curu Olannon]

Okay, list revision: the Chalice also counts as a war machine. This, unfortunately, means I simply cannot take it - with only 3 other machines I think the army as a gunline is too weak. Although it`s brutally efficient, I`d rather have that 4th piece of artillery. Also, the Hellcannon doesn`t count as a double, so that bring us to the following:

Death Sorcerer-Prophet: Crown of Command, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, Scroll of Shielding = 400
Death Daemonsmith Sorcerer: Dispel Scroll = 115
Infernal Castellan, BSB, Mask of the Furnace, Shield, Luckstone = 202
Khan, Wolf, Dragonhelm, Light Armour, Shield = 66
Khan, Wolf, Dragonbane Gem, Light Armour, Shield = 61
Characters: 844

27 Infernal Guard, Full Command, Great Weapons = 437
26 Infernal Guard, Full Command, Lichebone Pennant = 359
Core: 796

Iron Daemon, Hellbound = 310
Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher = 100
Magma Cannon = 145
Hellcannon = 205
Machines: 760

Total: 2400

Doom & Darkness synergizes very well with this list and the Death snipes help a lot against typical troublemakers. The Scroll of Shielding is especially nice against metal magic, re: Iron Daemon, but also has its uses for unit-wide carnage spells etc. The Hellcannon makes an appearance, and its -1 to panic tests I believe can be very well worth it here.

Deployment with this army can be tricky, I suppose. The clue is to provide the re-rolls with the wizards and have a really tight core, without exposing too much. If I find this too hard, I might have to invest in some Hobgoblin meat blocks to protect the flanks.

[Curu Olannon]

I bought quite a few models to start this army off yesterday. First of all I wanted to convert my own Hellcannon. Here are some WiP pictures:















The conversion above features parts from the Ogre Ironblaster, Chaos Chariot and Chaos Space Marines Rhino

What remains here is to even out the rough patches which I`ll do with liquid green stuff (currently empty so will pick one up soonish). I have been contemplating more spikes/details but I fear it will do more harm than good: the model is quite complex as it is so I think a good paint job will wound it out nicely.

Before I start the infantry I have to decide what kind of core setup I`d like. I`ve been thinking about the current setup and am not too happy about it: the problem is the list`s overall weakness to fast cav and chaff: without any small-arms fire what-so-ever I have a hard time putting pressure on these things. Splitting up the HW/Shield Infernal Guard in 2 and equipping them with Fireglaives should probably do the trick. BS3 is a problem since move + long means you hit on 6`s, but there are only 2 machines that need protecting (Rocket + Magma) so I think they`ll be able to fulfil this role.

[Chracian]

Nice job on the help cannon. I'm not sure hobgoblins should be allowed near it though, other than as food. If you're swapping the infantry round you might be better giving the gw troops fireglaives instead, otherwise you'll probably spend too much or not have enough bodies. Alternatively you could look at two units of hobgoblins with bows.

[Curu Olannon]

Well crew tends to die next to the Hellcannon so counting them as food is OK As for the infantry, I don`t think model count is that important - it`s more important to have the right tools for the right job. I`m more worried about armoured and tough things than I am with hordes, and anyways the initiative is horrible, hence I believe GW is the best option for the main block. Hobgoblins will be considered as well, but I`m kind of sceptical about them. Will come up with a couple of drafts later today!

[Curu Olannon]

New list proposal (found out the ID doesn`t count as a war machine under ETC restrictions):

Metal Sorcerer-Prophet: Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, Earthing Rod = 375
Metal Daemonsmith Sorcerer: Chalice of Blood and Darkness = 145
Infernal Castellan, BSB, Mask of the Furnace, Shield, Luckstone = 202
Khan, Wolf, Dragonhelm, Light Armour, Shield = 66
Khan, Wolf, Dragonbane Gem, Light Armour, Shield = 61
Characters: 849

27 Infernal Guard, Full Command, Great Weapons = 437
11 Infernal Guard, Fireglaives, Musician = 197
29 Hobgoblins, Bows, Musician = 149
Core: 783

Iron Daemon, Hellbound = 310
Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher = 100
Magma Cannon = 145
Hellcannon = 210
Machines: 765

Army total: 2397

Basically the core has become more flexible and capable of defending war machines, and the Chalice is back in the game

[Chracian]

A little trick with the hobbos: keep them more than 6" away from the chaos dwarfs, but within 12" of the bsb and general. That way, they suffer animosity (which may result in +1 to hit) but aren't likely to run off because of it. If you get enchanted blades on them, that's +2 to hit which isn't too bad.

Overall, list looks solid.

[Jimmy]

Hats off to you for not taking a destroyer. I respect that.

[Curu Olannon]

Hats off to you for not taking a destroyer. I respect that.

Thanks, but I can`t really take any credit: I do believe that the Destroyer is a terrible pick. Against weak players, you can march it forwards and win games easily. However any skilled player that has encountered it knows how to counter it: with Frenzy, Unbreakable, Unstable and Flaming Attacks it really isn`t that hard to cope with. Also, Withering and Soulblight are really strong against it. Sure, it hits like a ton of bricks but there`s a big "if" - can you get it to where you need it? I suppose running it in tandem with the Iron Daemon has its virtues, but then again how would you free as much as 325 points in my current list to pay for its inclusion? If you do, what then when you`re up against a gunline (which are already a big problem)? I won`t guarantee you that I won´t end up taking one, but for now I believe the Destroyer to be a poor investment actually

[Curu Olannon]

This list had its first game yesterday, a true baptism of fire: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=63017