Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sat May 30, 2020 11:24 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 263
Alrighty then!

Past month i've been trying out a lot of the new units and builds, and let me just say, the adventure continues. For those of you who don't know me (i'm definitely an on and off again poster), i've been playing High Elves since 5th edition, and it always seems that when I branch out, I end up selling my other army and coming back to my first love. As my brother just put it recently, "From now on, I'm never buying you warhammer other than high elves." I'll take that :)

Without further adew, (that's ignorant, for adieu) I give you my most recent musing:

2500:
Lords:
Archmage, lvl 3 (what the what?), heavens, shadow, or high, can't decide, talisman of endurance, dispel scroll: 240
I'm guessing a lot of you are seeing the level 3 and freaking out. To top it off, he doesn't have the BoH, and is essentially a scroll caddy with big boy pants on. Frankly, I have found, as a lot of other players have, that High Elf magic in 8th is a whole 'nother animal. While I perfectly get why people love the BoH, in the games i've played so far, I miss having the scroll, so to keep the BoH I would need a hero level caster. While I don't have a problem playing around with a lvl 4/lvl 1 build, I would also have to have units to put them in on the backlines; which, with the new core setup in 8th, is different than it was in 7th where you always had multiple archer units of decent size.

I don't really care about having the lvl 4 on him, but suppose I could be convinced.

Heros:
Lothern Seahelm, Skycutter (boo yah), charmed shield, golden crown, reaver bow: 235
SKYYYYYCUTTER IN FLIGHT, Afternoon delight! So basically I loved the noble on griffon (like, seriously, loved. Wanted to yell "Swooping strike!" Whenever I charged in with him), but the problem was he was still easy to dismount, and a little too much spent on characters in total for my liking. Skycutter seahelm is a great model, I love the 4+ ward, making the model hardy vs. shooting, and i've found he acts as a great support model. Honestly, i'm still deciding on whether he'll stay, but i'll keep using him for now

Noble, BSB, Barded elven steed, Star Lance, enchanted shield, potion of foolhardiness, dragon armor: 160
Straight forward. No comments.

Core:
3 x 5 Reavers, musicians
12 Archers, musician
9 SH, Standard, Musician
Points: 627

Special:
2 x tiranoc chariots
Love that we can group these now. Seems to be far more threatening on a flank when they are grouped together, and it is harder to give your opponent points.

25 WL, Standard, Musician, banner of the world dragon
14 SM, Standard, Musician
Points: 737

Rare:
3 x RBT
1 Eagle
Frostheart Phoenix
Points: 500

Generally I deploy with the SH, Frostheart, and Seahelm on one flank. Seahelm deploys more towards the center so it can support either the flank OR the center WL and SM unit. Since it flies and can reroll dangerous terrain tests, it usually does this with ease. Center moves up at a speed that's contingent on who I am facing, with the WLs moving faster to draw fire.

Reavers all over doing their thing, same with the eagle, with RBTs deployed where they can to get the best shots. Chariots generally are on left flank watching the WLs back with a reaver unit.

Thoughts and input on magic lore as well as character selection are greatly appreciated. I also have a list that uses a Loremaster instead of Archmage as single choice, it's obviously a more expensive character choice though.

_________________
"BLOOD AND BERRYWINE!"
Image

Northern Virginia Gaming
Approach to Balance


Last edited by Arhain on Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:54 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:40 pm
Posts: 47
Location: NJ, USA
Ha! I resemble your remarks! I have wobbled through armies over the past 20ish years and I have sold more armies than most people have owned. So, I know the feeling. I am trying to get back into some tournament play, mostly for the change of pace, and I have been back and forth on armies, and I have come back to the high elves as well.

Your list is interesting, in that, I have something very similar built.

Your lvl 3 is going to find it more difficult in today's lvl 4 meta I think. If you were to opt for a lvl 3, I would say go with the BoH as it will overcome your level drop, though I really don't think it is too bad, honestly. You will get to cast and dispel a bit more easily with the book, but I understand your need for the scroll. My current build only has two characters, and I do not have a scroll and I feel a bit...naked.

The two list builds I have, put my BSB on foot or mounted, almost exactly like your build, except I took the Golden Crown for an extra wound. When I took the mounted BSB, my core was the same as yours, with two less archers.

I am not sure about the Cutter Hero, you will have to let me know how that works out for you. It is a big target that can be seen by anything on the board really, so I do not know if you will get the value for that. Should be fun though and it may take some shooting pressure away from the rest of your army.

I am not sure about the 3 reavers. I have them as well, I am just not sure I need three, as I have 2 eagles, as opposed to your 1. In all, I like your core.

Specials again we are similar. I have an 18 block of WL and two 10 blocks of SM. I had a larger block of SM, but I am opting for some more tactical options with the smaller units. They are still scary at that size, against the right opponent. Current lists seem to have the PG + Razor Standard, which is a great build. I just like the look of the WL and SM a bit more. I had the BotWD in my build, but took it out to get more points for other things. I may regret that, as I see the utility in having it. But, people are crying so much about it (daemons) that I felt it was OK to drop...for now. Expect some grumbling across the table. In all, I think these are two good choices for you. I am not sure they are optimal, but I don't play optimal, and that is a subjective word anyway. It is all in how you use them, so I support your choices.

I have two builds going, as I mentioned. One of them has the unit of 2 Tiranocs plus a Lion Chariot (I get the points from not having the 3rd hero as you did). I think this will work well, and is certainly different than most lists. The unit should do well in pressing a flank, so I think you will have some success with it. In my build, the lion chariot will hunt chaff and anything that gets past the lines. A unit of 2 chariots is a scary thing, and it should eliminate any push from enemy chaff and light cavalry.

In my second build I had 2 Cutters with Bolt Throwers instead of the chariots. This gave my some mobile shooting platforms. Not sure if it will work, but my fallback is similar to yours. I like chariots, and I think they give you good options.

My rares are identical to your with the exception I have 2 RBTs, 2 Eagles and the Frostheart. The Frostheart is made of win, and is so good with the HEs that I think it is a must have. It really adds value to combats, when you pick the right ones. Because you have a flying hero, you may take the pressure off the Phoenix from enemy shooting, so that may be one reason to keep the hero in. Otherwise, expect the phoenix to by target number one. If you can pressure the enemy, or take out some of his artillery early, you should have good success. 3 RBTs are a fearsome thing to face. My regular opponent is HE and when I was testing Chaos Warriors, i hated seeing the darn things across the table. They give you great shooting options and the fear factor is great too, so good choice. If you had to grab points somewhere, you may be able to get away with dropping one.

So, overall, I really like the list, because I have a similar mind. I am hoping to get some games in with the list soon, so let us know how you do and how the list evolves. I would imagine you will start to rethink the BoH, which may cause you to switch out your Cutter Hero, but again, optimal is so subjective. Sure, the Hero may not be the best choice, but if it works with your army and takes some pressure off your Frostheart, then it may be worth it. You may find that if you take it out, you lose your Frostheart by turn 2, so take all the comments, including mine, with a grain of salt. It is how the list works together that determines the value, not taken alone.

Have fun.

--Breezly


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 263
Breezly wrote:
Your lvl 3 is going to find it more difficult in today's lvl 4 meta I think. If you were to opt for a lvl 3, I would say go with the BoH as it will overcome your level drop, though I really don't think it is too bad, honestly. You will get to cast and dispel a bit more easily with the book, but I understand your need for the scroll. My current build only has two characters, and I do not have a scroll and I feel a bit...naked.


I hear you on the lvl 4 meta remark. And i'm glad you brought up the BoH, because while I feel kind of naked without the scroll, having the BoH does help a lot with dispelling. In the games i've used no scrolls, prioritizing dispel dice worked really well...until it didn't work. So i'll have to keep playing to see how it works. Going back to BoH in the meantime might make for better trials, since I already know I feel more comfortable at least having the scroll.

Quote:
I am not sure about the Cutter Hero, you will have to let me know how that works out for you. It is a big target that can be seen by anything on the board really, so I do not know if you will get the value for that. Should be fun though and it may take some shooting pressure away from the rest of your army.


Taking the shooting pressure away from the rest of the army is another reason I like him. I might drop him down to an Eagle noble, since you can make really good defensive eagle nobles in the 8th edition book, the Erratas have made chicken nobles T 4 with 3 wounds, and it's cheaper than the Skycutter noble. In the end that might just be the better route, but in the meantime i'll play more with the new toy.

Thanks for the comments!

_________________
"BLOOD AND BERRYWINE!"
Image

Northern Virginia Gaming
Approach to Balance


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 263
Alright, here's an update to the list:
Quote:
Archmage
Lvl 3, High Magic, book of hoeth, ironcurse icon: 245

Mage
lvl 1, Heavens, dispel scroll: 110

Noble
BSB, Shield of Merwyrm, Sword of Might, Golden Crown: 150

Noble
Barded Steed, Star Lance, Great weapon, Dragon Helm, Pot of fools, luckstone: 145

Core:

5 Reavers, bows, musician: 95
5 Reavers, bows, musician: 95
18 Archers, Standard, musician, 200
9 SH, shields, FC: 237

Special:
2xTiranoc chariot: 140 (unit of 2)
23 WL, Standard bearer, musician, BotWD: 369
12 x SM, Standard bearer, musician, banner of eternal flame: 186

Rare:
2 x RBT: 140
1 Eagle: 50
1 Frostheart Phoenix: 240
7 Sisters of Avelorn: 98

Total: 2500


So, biggest changes would be the character set up. While I really liked the seahelm on skycutter (still do) I felt like he didn't fit with the army very well. I was also not a huge fan of the BSB being in the SH unit, as he was needed in the mainline of the army.

I also changed up my magic setup. While still retaining a lvl 3, I added in the BoH, and a lvl 1 with a scroll. With the lvl 3 using high magic he will effectively cast as a lvl 4 (higher with the BoH bonus) and while he is only +3 for dispel purposes, the BoH will bump that higher on average. I still wanted the scroll, so I made room for the lvl 1 caster, while also picking up another useful lore. If I find that as lvl 3 i'm having trouble getting the spells I want, I might also make the lvl 1 use high magic. This magic phase is only 355 points, and I think it can be put to good use.

Questions or comments welcome.

_________________
"BLOOD AND BERRYWINE!"
Image

Northern Virginia Gaming
Approach to Balance


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:04 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12867
Location: Otherworld
Every game I played in 8th with High Elves I used a lvl3 and I retain a lot of affection for him. With Silver Wand (spell selection is important IMHO) and Banner of Sorcery I found he often dominated enemy phases even with Lvl4's and support casters. Defence was just about enough because he still dispelled at +4 and Flames got off frequently, which tended to eat the enemy's next magic phase.

I'm now toying with the idea of a Lvl3 with scroll and Ruby Ring in my Wood Elf army. I reckon you usually need 5 spells for a good, varied repertoire. So while your solo guy should cover defence Ok Arhain I can't see him doing much offensively. Of course, once you draft the Book in and the Lvl1 it's a different story. But then the extra +1's and the boosted spell selection for the lvl4 are harder to pass by. The usual reason for taking a lvl3 is that you need the rest of the Lords allocation for a second character. Otherwise those 35pts are a very solid investment.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 263
Battle Report!

So I had to change my list up a bit due to some models having been taken apart/stripped for repainting. This was my first game in a new gaming group (Just moved, havent played in a month), so I didn't want to use a whole lot of counts as models. Here is what I used.

Quote:
Archmage, lvl 4, High Magic, Talisman of Endurance, Book of Hoeth, Ironcurse Icon 310 Pts
Noble, BSB, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed, Star Lance, Dragon Helm, Golden Crown 170.0 Pts
Mage, lvl 2, Beasts, Ring of Fury, dispel Scroll 170pts

20 Archers, Standard, Musician 220.0 Pts
9 SH, Full Command, Shields 237 pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, musician, spears 90pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, musician, spears 90pts

23 Swordmasters, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon 379pts
18 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Gleaming Pendant 259pts
3 Tiranoc Chariot 210 pts (YEEEEAH! :twisted: )
6 SW, Champ, Reaver bow 115pts

2 Eagles, 100pts
2 Bolt Throwers, 200pts


Opponent had:
Quote:

Demon Prince, Fly, Soul Stealer, 2+ save, lvl 4 Nurgle...maybe something else?
Festus!
Throgg

20 Warriors of Khorne, Great Weapons, Full Command, Banner of Rage
20 Warriors of Nurgle, extra hand weapon, Full command
5 Chaos Knights, full command

5 Trolls

2 Hell cannons


Archmage: Fiery Conv, Walk, Hand, Drain
Mage: Wyssans, Curse

Demon Prince: Stream, Curse, Rancid, Plaguewind
Festus: Miasma, Blades

Deployment:
Image

I tended to be fairly happy with my deployment, although as this was my first game against a demon prince (yeah, it's been that long) I wasn't sure how it would turn out. I have heard horror stories about them, and since my third RBT is being repainted (which I wanted to bring), I was wondering whether 2 RBTs would put enough pressure on him.

HE Turn 1:
Image

Moved reavers slightly in front of impassable terrain so that while i'm blocking the lane, I can flee through the obstacle to safety. Everything else shifts slightly. Shadow warriors move out of venom thicket and lose one to dangerous terrain test. Magic sees me fail a 3 dice Curse on the Nurgle Warriors, Hand of Glory an RBT go boost him to BS 7 for the DP, Six dice Fiery Conv on the nurgle warriors, kill 8. Shooting sees SW put a wound on the closest Hell cannon, also put two wounds on the trolls.

Chaos Turn 1:
Image

Chaos Knights charge Reavers, who flee through the obstacle and lose 2 to DT tests (womp womp). Right Hell cannon fails restraint and runs towards the SW. Everything else generally moves forward, Demon Prince moves to the left of chariots, just out of arc. He faced the RBTs, could see the archers, and the Swordmasters. Was a 3:3 Magic phase, used everything to dispel Fiery Conv.

HE turn 2:
Image

Rallied Reavers! Moved back to block the lane. Seeing the Demon Prince giving me free reign on the right flank, I zoomed my knights forward and around the obstacle as much as I could. Second reaver unit moved up to be fed to trolls. Looking back I suppose I could have done this with the eagle to save me 40 pts, but meh. Chariots wheeled slightly to get ready to counter charge. White Lions and Swordmasters move up slightly, diagram makes them look further from the warriors than they really are. SW also move in case the Hell cannons are wanting to charge. Bad magic phase, nothing. Shooting sees 1 wound on the DP from the bolt throwers.

Chaos Turn 2:
Image

Trolls charge in to reavers, who hold. Chaos Knights charge into reavers, who flee again. Demon Prince charges into an RBT. Magic sees Demon Prince get curse on himself, boosting himself to T8! He also gets the Lore attribute, so he's T9 for now. Blades dispelled, Plague Wind scrolled. Shooting, the hell cannon that failed restraint last turn misfired and ate all of his crew, passed his monster reaction. Other Hell cannon fired and hit the SM, wound 5, but the mutha truckin banner of I-had-a-shit-eating-grin saved all. Combat, Trolls slaughter reavers, fail to restrain and move up 5", giving me a nice juicy flank. RBT slaughtered, and archers with the mage panic and run off the board...sigh.

_________________
"BLOOD AND BERRYWINE!"
Image

Northern Virginia Gaming
Approach to Balance


Last edited by Arhain on Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 263
HE Turn 3:
Image

Fun turn. Chariots into flank of trolls, SM to the front. From the diagram it looks like the SM made a long charge, but it was really something like 10 inches or something like that. White Lions charge the Hell cannon in front of them. Reavers rally. Stand put just in case knights want to continue down the lane. Other movement sees the SH unit move into position along the rear of the Chaos army. Magic sees HoG on chariots. At the time, I just wanted to get the buffed ward, but really this should have been cast on the SM, as it would have gauranteed the trolls would hit them on 5+ since SM would be at WS7. I also get Drain magic off on the Demon Prince. He dispells Walk on the RBT (was going to move it out of the arc of the Demon Prince). Shooting sees the SW put another wound on the HC. Combat sees the WL kill the Hell Cannon, reform a bit so I can see the Nurgle Warriors (diagram is a little off). Here's the fun one. chariots do 14 impact hits, 6 wounds sneak through regen, crew do another 3 wounds. SM do another 3 wounds. Throgg issued a challenge, who I accepted with my SM champ, who was happily slaughtered. I win combat, SM catch and pursue into Nurgle Warriors, chariots restrain and reform.

Chaos Turn 3.
Image

Demon Prince charges remaining RBT. Chaos Knights attempt a swift reform to face the center of battle, and fail the test to move! Khorne Warriors turn to face the SH. Magic sees an attempt at Miasma and Curse at the warriors, however I dispel these. He does get off blades though (ouch). Shooting sees an attempt at the chariots, which veers off and misses. Combat sees the SM against the Nurgle Warriors. I understand there's a lot of unhappiness with the SM in the new book, but I still love them. Since they are WS 6, they hit the Nurgle warriors on a 4+ instead of a 5+, which helps tremendously. Festus Challenges, and like a baller my arch mage steps forward! (at the edge of the unit, blocking others from striking and would save him from other nurgle strikes). Festus crams 3 potions down the arch mage's throat, and I fail 2 of my 3 2+ wards! SM do 3 wounds to the warriors, while taking 3 in return. With my charge and ranks on him, it's a push.

HE Turn 4.
Image

Another great combat turn. SH and Chariots charge into the Khorne warriors front. WL charge into the flank of the Nurgle Warriors. Reaver unit that is the bane of those Knights' existence moves to block the lane to the center. SW move out of the arc of the hell cannon just....because. A 1:1 magic phase sees drain go off on the nurgle warriors. SW fail to do a wound or the first turn in the game. The Khorne warrior combat sees the chariots (2 in base) cause a total of 4 from impacts, 1 from the crew. BSB does 3 wounds to the champion in a challenge, and the rest of the SH cause 5 more wounds. Because of the BSB's positioning, i cuts down on the return attacks, but the warriors still down 4 SH, and do 2 wounds to the chariots. The Warriors break from combat, the SH catch them, while the Chariots reform. In the Nurgle warrior combat, the WL do 3 wounds, SM do 3 wounds (rolled regen like mad here), while the warriors down 2 WL and 4 SM. In the challenge, festus and my archmage just bat at each other. I win combat by 3, they break and are run down by the WL.

Chaos Turn 4.
Image
Demon Prince charges into rear or SM. In a tournament game I probably would have just fled away. Even with a 2+ ward, I didn't want to just sit there and risk the dice rolls, plus it was going to be fun to see. Knights charge the reavers! Who flee again. Shooting sees the hell cannon misfire and die a horrible death...and while exploding killed off most of the SW, who panicked off the board! In truth they were out of range of the explosion, but we wanted to see it happen, fitting end for a unit that was plinking wounds off the hell cannon all game. Magic sees Curse cast on the DP. Combat, DP manages to slip a wound through and kill 1 SM, Sm do 1 wound to the DP. I win combat by 1 due to musician. I reform to face his him.

HE turn 5:
Image

Reavers rally. Move up to die a horrible death to the Knights. SH unit moves to counter charge, or charge if he sits and doesn't charge into the reavers. WL's turn and move towards the Knights as well. Magic sees Walk cast on the WL's, who move 20" towards knights and sees them in prime position to help against the knights. Drain magic is also cast on the Demon Prince. Combat has no wounds being done to the SM unit because of the banner of I-can't-believe-this-is-legal.

Chaos Turn 5:
Image

Chaos Knights take the bait and charge the reavers, who finally hold. Magic sees plague wind cast, it kills off a couple SM, and 3 SH. Combat sees the reavers finally being crushed, having more than earned their points. Demon Prince squeeks through a wound to the SM, Sm do no wounds. We sit there again.

HE Turn 6:
Image

WL and SH charge into the Nurgle Knights. Magic sees Walk cast on chariots (just for the ward) and HoG on SM, who are now WS9, I8! Combat sees the BSB kill 1 knight (rolled 2 1's), SH kill 1, WL kill 0. Chaos champion and the SH champion swing at each other but nothing connects. Knights kill 2 SH in return. I win by 3, he breaks and is run down. Swordmaster combat sees 2 more fall, I do 1 wound to the DP. We sit there.

Chaos Turn 6:
Just the SM combat, another SM drops, another wound to the DP.

That's the game!

Will comment on the game a little later.

_________________
"BLOOD AND BERRYWINE!"
Image

Northern Virginia Gaming
Approach to Balance


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 263
Okie dokie. So the game went really well. I feel like this Chaos list can't handle chaff, so I was really able to dictate the game and choose when I wanted to fight. Also, I honestly have to say I think my opponent did not use his demon prince very well. He went after those RBTs, and ended up charging into the one unit where he was really neutered, I was worried in the beginning that he would use him to clog my cavalry and chariots. Overall I was happy with how the magic performed, but I can clearly see how with just the wrong spell rolls it might be difficult to get the ward buffs and it would be incredibly easy to prioritize.

Part of this can be mitigated with an army set up. For example, hand of glory can be a very situational spell. With a big archer block, if I don't have units in combat to buff WS or I, I can always buff the archer block's BS to increase their killing power, making it a spell people are more likely to think about where as in any other army setup, fiery convocation might be the only spell on the priority list.

Anyways, here's a break down of the units:

Archmage
I liked the setup. Running him in a combat unit makes me want to put the ring of fury on him though for the extra high magic spell, however I'd have to lose the Book of Hoeth, and I'm not sure I would want to do that. If I did drop it, I would probably run something like Talisman of Preservation, Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll. But seriously Book of Hoeth brings so much to offense and defense, not sure I would go with that setup.

Mage
I like beasts with the list. Wyssans has a lot of good targets, and I get excited thinking about Wyssans on the chariots when they charge in. I can also target WLs, SMs, SH, or even the archers if need be. I'm happy with those options. Beasts also has other spells I like. In this game I had curse, and it would have been great to have been able to use that.

BSB
Fairly standard setup. Works just fine.

Archers
I like the block. With Hand of Glory they're even better, and with the unit size of 20, they can hold off chaff or even standard blocks if need be. In this game it sucked that they ran off the board, but thems the break.

Reavers
Did awesome in this game, I tend to run them with bows, and I think in this game they could have added some plink plink here and there.

SH
Did wonderful, as expected. In the old book I started using 10 SH with a noble just to pressure my opponents backline, and the new book makes this a bit easier.

White Lions
18 strong is a good size. I want to toy with a unit of 12 now using a 4x3 formation. I always wanted to try the cube, and really for how I use these guys, that might work for me. This game though, the 18 strong was solid, they nabbed a hell cannon and helped with the chaos knights.

Swordmasters
Hah, I absolutely love the interwebz hatred for these guys. I find it hilarious. They lost their rerolls, and everyone throws them to the curb. Well, the way I see it is the white lions also lost their rerolls. Yes, they are still stubborn and have the 3+ save in combat, but I don't think this outright makes taking Swordmasters a terrible idea. Even in this game, for example, the Swordmasters hit the nurgle warriors on a 4+ rather than a 5+, with more attacks. With high magic, they become very durable against shooting and close combat, so I'm liking them. They'll stay, at least when i'm using a high magic arch mage.

3 x Tiranoc Chariots
BOOOO YAH. Hah, to be honest, I took these guys because I liked the idea of the Tiranocii trampling their enemies, singing their battle hymns as they go. Then, I love the look of a rank of 3 chariots. Our chariots are, in my opinion, in the top three of our best kits. They are beautiful, they are a joy to paint, and I love them. Lastly, 3D6 impact hits is nothing to shrug at. The math is pretty good about the average damage that they do, and they get even better with Wyssans. They are also great with Walk between Worlds, because a chariot unit that can move up to 29" in a turn is a lot of fun. They also aren't as susceptible to low S no armor save weapons, or something like troll vomit. I'll keep using these guys and see how they do, but right now i'm a fan.

RBTs
In this game they were more Demon bait, which I count as a blessing actually. I'll keep them.

Great Eagles
Didn't get much use this game, but ablative chaff is always a good thing in my mind.

_________________
"BLOOD AND BERRYWINE!"
Image

Northern Virginia Gaming
Approach to Balance


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:38 pm
Posts: 165
Good report. The only thing I would mention is the colors used in Battle Chronicler. They don't stand out to well, makes it a bit hard to make things out.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:19 am
Posts: 104
Nice report. I definitely think you're right about your opponents demon prince use. Any other unit in your army would've been a better target.

I think you should consider keeping the skycutter bsb. I'm looking at running one in a 2400 list (admittedly something of a flying circus) but I think with a set up of reaver bow and khaines ring. This makes him into a mobile gun platform and getting of soul quench (which would probably be a 1 dice cast at the end of a phase) gives him and the chariot a 3++ against shooting. He's obviously rather fragile here but you can switch the ring for PoS and a magic shield of your choice or even drop the bow for defensive kit.

I'm a big fan of skycutters in general, I run 2 with bolt throwers and have found them much more useful than the internet suggests. Looking forward to more reports.

_________________
Fervent dragon addict and Australian warhammer enthusiast
@THR1LLHELM


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 263
Sunndi wrote:
Good report. The only thing I would mention is the colors used in Battle Chronicler. They don't stand out to well, makes it a bit hard to make things out.


Thanks for the feedback, i'll definitely change up the colors next time to make it easier to tell which unit is which.

THRILLHELM wrote:
I think you should consider keeping the skycutter bsb. I'm looking at running one in a 2400 list (admittedly something of a flying circus) but I think with a set up of reaver bow and khaines ring. This makes him into a mobile gun platform and getting of soul quench (which would probably be a 1 dice cast at the end of a phase) gives him and the chariot a 3++ against shooting. He's obviously rather fragile here but you can switch the ring for PoS and a magic shield of your choice or even drop the bow for defensive kit.


Yeah if you're going to run a Seahelm, I think he needs to be in a Skycutter. looks cool, and the built in 4+ ward means it's really our most durable flyer. I didn't post any battle reports when I was using him, but I really never had a bad game with him, he was a solid pick. It got to a point when I was looking at the internal balance of my army list and I realized for his points I could be spending them more efficiently elsewhere. Having said that, I am definitely going to make an army list where he makes an appearance.

Quote:
I'm a big fan of skycutters in general, I run 2 with bolt throwers and have found them much more useful than the internet suggests. Looking forward to more reports.


The army I took against the WoC didn't have a skycutter because I was playing someone for the first time, and didn't want to use a "counts as" model. So that's why the skycutter didn't make an appearance (other games when i've used the seahelm on skycutter was against my regular gaming buddies, so they can deal with "counts as" models).

Having said that, I played another game Saturday against Beastmen and I brought along the Skycutter!

I'll try to post the new battle report later today.

_________________
"BLOOD AND BERRYWINE!"
Image

Northern Virginia Gaming
Approach to Balance


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:19 am
Posts: 104
Sorry, I should pay more attention to the context. Glad to hear someone else is getting use out of skycutters. My favourite thing about them so far is that often opponents see the BT on top and assume that you're going to sit there and shoot all game and don't respect its combat potential. Impact hits are great fun.

I'd love to hear how your BSB skycutter goes in the future. I'll be following this blog closely.

_________________
Fervent dragon addict and Australian warhammer enthusiast
@THR1LLHELM


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:09 am 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Arhain wrote:
Swordmasters
Hah, I absolutely love the interwebz hatred for these guys. I find it hilarious. They lost their rerolls, and everyone throws them to the curb. Well, the way I see it is the white lions also lost their rerolls. Yes, they are still stubborn and have the 3+ save in combat, but I don't think this outright makes taking Swordmasters a terrible idea. Even in this game, for example, the Swordmasters hit the nurgle warriors on a 4+ rather than a 5+, with more attacks. With high magic, they become very durable against shooting and close combat, so I'm liking them. They'll stay, at least when i'm using a high magic arch mage.

Dude tell me about it. Agree on all counts. Except that lions cloaks only offer a 3+ save against non-magical shooting. It's 5+ in cc from the heavy armour.

Great report. It's nice to see someone run a TC unit (I love the models too but I can't be bothered to paint any more for the moment) - looking forward to seeing how they do in future.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 263
Seredain wrote:
Except that lions cloaks only offer a 3+ save against non-magical shooting. It's 5+ in cc from the heavy armour.


This is what I meant, if they were 3+ in combat, i'd say game over Swordmasters hahaha. Anyways overtime I might change my mind about them, but right now on the board I don't see as much of an issue as others seem to have. To each their own I suppose.

High Elves vs. Beastmen

Well since moving down to Charlottesville, VA, it's been a month since I got to play against any of my gaming league back in the northern part of the State, but I was finally able to get a game in with an old friend. I also had no qualms about using "counts as" models either, so I was able to use the list that I'll be hammering on in the weeks ahead.

Without further adieu, here is my list:
Quote:
Archmage, lvl 4, High Magic, Talisman of Endurance, book of Hoeth, Ironcurse Icon @ 310.0 Pts
Noble, BSB, Heavy Armor, Great Weapon, Shield, Barded Steed, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown @ 170.0 Pts
Mage, lvl 2, BEASTS like a boss, Ring of Fury, Dispel scroll @ 170.0 Pts

20 Archers, Standard, Musician @ 220.0 Pts
9 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields @ 237.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers @ 90.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician @ 90.0 Pts

23 Swordmasters of Hoeth, Full Command, BotWD @ 379.0 Pts
12 White Lions of Chrace, Standard, Musician, gleaming pendant @ 181.0 Pts
3 Tiranoc Chariot =D> @ 210.0 Pts
Lothern Skycutter @ 95.0 Pts
6 Shadow Warriors @ 84.0 Pts

Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower @ 70.0 Pts
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower @ 70.0 Pts
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower @ 70.0 Pts


Beastmen list

Quote:
Doombull...Sword of Striking i'm sure of, other stuff i'm not sure.
Gorebull, BSB. Magic items
Brayshaman, lvl 2, Dispel scroll

10 Ungor raiders
10 Ungor raiders
10 Ungor raiders
21 Ungors, Full Command
19 Gors, Full Command
2 Tuskgor Chariots
5 Harpies

5 Minotaurs, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer
6 Razorgors

Spawn
Cygor


I need to really start taking down magic items after the game. Sorry for the lack of more detail on the list!

First Thoughts

So my first thought when looking at his list is that it's not a typical build i'm used to seeing. I'm not a huge fan of the small unit of ungors or gors, and while I can see the utility in them as being like a shaman bunker, in this game he deployed the Gorebull inside of the Ungors. I can see that in a large horde of ungors possibly, but not in such a small unit.

When we started the game, I did not remember the statline on the Pumbas (Razorgor), and had to ask multiple times about them. As far as the minotaurs, I've seen them played and used many times, and while they hit like a truck in combat, if you get the jump on them, or avoid them while peppering them down with magic and shooting, it shouldn't be a problem. The biggest problem from the start for me wasn't his the Beastmen list, but I absolutely hated the terrain. Very combat and lots of it, giving me him soft cover and plenty of DT for me. However I was confident with my list and that I had the tools to deal with his list.

Deployment
Image

I'll admit it. Not the prettiest deployment. I was confident on that left flank, however I felt like the bolt throwers were wasted where they were, but it was difficult to help that with all the terrain.

Beasts Turn 1
Image

So it was clear that my deployment on the left flank made him uncomfortable, as he moved up cautiously. Magic saw nothing. Shooting saw a large runic boulder thrown at the Swordmasters, who despite waving their banner and shouting, "YOU LOOK MAGICAL." had 6 of their numbers fall. 1 Reaver on the right fell.

HE Turn 1
Image

With the harpies sitting in front of his two blocks, and not wanting his chaff to start messing our little delicate dance on the left, I decided to charge the harpies. I thought he would flee, but he held. Right Reavers charged ungor unit. Shooting saw me target the right chariot with both bolt throwers on the right and tore it off the board. Left RBT took an RBT off the minos. Fiercy Convocation went off, but was scrolled. Pumbas got curse of arnheim, Hand of Glory went off on Archers, and I also walked on the skycutter, more for the ward than any movement. Reavers couldn't break the harpies (woot, holding the blocks up), and the reavers on the right lost 2 of their number in the combat while downing 3, broke down the ungor unit...and then the remaining 2 died to DT tests.

Beasts Turn 2
Image

BSB and ungors charged the reavers in combat with the harpies. Minos attempted a charge on the SH because he figured if he didn't, i'd be doing it. I held, and he failed the charge. Cygor kill 3 SM with another boulder. Raiders do a wound to the skycutter, other raider unit downs one SH (stupid 1s...). In combat, reavers get mowed down, BSB and ungors overrun ahead, right into the path of the SM unit.

HE Turn 2
Image

Fun turn. SM and Skycutter charged into BSB and ungor unit. SH and white lions into Mino front, Chariot unit into their flank. Got Walk off on Archers for the ward save, Curse of Arnheim went off on Minos, and I Ring of Furied 3 (lowsy roll) raiders. In combat, Skycutter did 6 wounds in total, SM unit did 4 (rolled poorly on the hit rolls). BSB killed the champion, and ungors killed 1 SM. His unit broke and I run them down. Skycutter redirected into the other block, SM unit just barely missed the corner of the other block. Mega combat! Chariots did a combined total of 8 wounds, WL tore it up with 7 wounds, SH/BSB did a total of 3 wounds. Doombull strikes back and kills 5. I win combat, he breaks and I run him down. WL barely miss the tuskgor chariot on the overrun, SH are 2" short of running into the Cygor.

Something weird happened here too that i'm not quite sure about. Here, the chariots rolled 10 for overrun, and the WLs roll a 4", since the chariots are on that flank, can they pivot on the center and move their 10" or are they stopped because of the WL? Can't believe i'm asking this, but as I said, i'm a bit out of practice, and took my friends word for it.

Skycutter was killed off.

Beasts Turn 3
Image

Pumbas and Spawn into Tiranoc Chariots. Cygor also into chariot. Magic saw wildform squeek through onto the Gor unit. Nothing in shooting. In combat, Spawn and Pumbas take the chariots down to 1 model, I roll double 1's like a Tiranoc BOSS. The Gors take out the Skycutter, reform to face the Swordmasters. Cygor kills 2 SH, I do 1 wound to him, I hold.

HE Turn 3
Image

WL charge the Gor chariot, who flees. Now, here's where I clearly do not get the statline of the Pumbas. I redirect into the Pumbas, thinking "Heh, flanking this unit is going to be so sweet." It was not connecting that they have like 4 attacks each, and are S and T5. Not good. Anyways in magic I manage to fiery conv the Gor unit, killing 5 (he's T 5 since wildform is still on). HoG goes off on the SH, giving then m+1, making the Cygor hit them on 5+, and Walk on the Archers, moving them up into close range for shooting the Gors. In shooting, SW kill off 3 raiders, causing a panic test and they run away. RBTs kill off 3 other raiders, causing panic. Some of this may not be displayed. In combat, WL lose 8 of their number, and only doing 3 wounds in return. The chariot breaks, and gets away from the spawn. The WL hold (thankfully). Cygor is killed off.

Beast Turn 4
Image

Gors charge into the Swordmasters. Spawn shuffles at the Tiranoc Chariot, and since it's random movement I can't flee further and get cut down. Nothing happens in magic or shooting. In combat, With my SW's having a 4+ ward from magic, and the Gors not having wildform, 9 Gors die, and take no casualties in return. They break and I overrun into Harpies. WLs are slaughtered.

HE Turn 4
Image
No charges. In movement, I swift reform and move around the arc of the Pumbas. Get some spells off, shoot the Spawn to death. Harpies die in combat.

Beast Turn 5
Image
Game was dying down, we both thought it was turn 6. He charged pumbas at the Shadow Warriors, and I fled.

HE Turn 5
Image

Archers managed to make the Pumbas panic and run away.

The End

We ended the game there, thinking it was turn 6. Game thoughts will come later, phew!

_________________
"BLOOD AND BERRYWINE!"
Image

Northern Virginia Gaming
Approach to Balance


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 263
Alrighty, so overall I felt like I worked with what the terrain gave me (hated that terrain), and managed to implement my battle plan. My Main goal was to take out his two main combat blocks with his characters in it, and I managed to do that by turn 2. I deployed in a way that I brought my heavy hitters to bear on his heavy hitters, knowing that I would be faster than him, and that if I got the charge off I would be able to handle those threats.

This was made easier with his friend placing his Gorebull BSB in his ungors, because it gave me really easy combat res. I never did find out why he deployed in that unit. It might have been just because the 40mm footprint worked with the 20mm footprint of the Ungors, in which case I really need to tell him never to do that again!

It was obvious with my deployments on the left flank that it threw him off a bit, because he realized that I was going to be able to get the jump on him. He was also very confident in that Doombull and the Minos, which explains why he didn't try using his chaff to block off some of those turn 2 charges.

For some reason, he also did not pressure my right flank at all. Again, I have a feeling he had a lot of confidence in those combat blocks on the left, and thought I wouldn't be able to handle that.

For those of you who didn't read the report and just looked at the pictures, here's a big question that I took away from the game.

-When a unit that is engaged in combat in the front and the flank, and then breaks and runs from the unit in the front, if the front unit rolls low on the pursuit roll, does this block the unit on the flank from pursuing it's full movement, thereby stopping it from overrunning into a new unit? For reference, i'm talking about the Turn 2 charge of my chariots / WL / and SH into his Minos. When he broke, I rolled high enough to catch him, but did not have my chariots pursue into his razorgors (even though I rolled high enough), because the WL's rolled 4", and pivoting the chariot unit on the center towards the direction of flight would prevent any forward movement, and technically speaking would not even allow me to do a true pivot on the center to reform towards the direction of flight. Hmmm, I might do some diagrams to make this easier.

Level 2 Mage

I'm currently wondering whether to keep Lore of Beasts on my lvl 2. I actually really like it on him. I have plenty of targets for Wyssans, two of which benefit from lower casting values. I like the Lore in general, and feel like most of the spells I can get mileage. I've gotten a good use out of him so far, so it's not the actual Lore I have a problem with.

I've started thinking about the overall balance of the list, and wondering how I would deal with certain threats, specifically fast monsters or 1+ save Monstrous Cav. While I don't feel completely overwhelmed at the prospect of facing these threats between the 3 RBTs, Arcane Unforging adding an effective tool for armor, and the amount of chaff with combat elements, I do feel like I might need something else I can fall back on. Other lists use Star Dragons, Cav Princes with S7, or some form of magic such as Lore of Death or Metal, or even Shadow for the I test or Mindrazor capabilities. To be honest, the Star Dragon is not for me, just because it's not what I want for this list. I do not want a Cav Prince for a couple reasons, one being that again it's not something I want to try squeezing into the list, when I might be able to cover that base elsewhere in that list. That brings me to that third option, of using my magic to give me a tool to handle monsters or high armor characters. I'm debating whether to eventually move to Metal or Death to give me another ranged option of handling those threats. I probably won't switch his Lore just yet, but i'm definitely considering it. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

_________________
"BLOOD AND BERRYWINE!"
Image

Northern Virginia Gaming
Approach to Balance


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 263
Update!

So I just played in a tournament over the weekend (battle reps are coming along). One of the best parts of tournaments is it gives you a quick 3+ games to really make you think about the balance of your army. You start to see units that are under utilized, or simply not utilized, while also seeing units that really work for you. You also get to see what weaknesses your army has (depending on the matchups). So some updates on the list:

Quote:
Old List
Archmage, lvl 4, High Magic, BoH, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon
Mage, lvl 2, Beasts, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury
BSB, Mounted on barded steed, great weapon, shield, heavy armor, Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Gold crown

20 Archers, Standard, Musician
5 Reavers, musician
5 Reavers, musician
9 SH, Shields, Full command

23 Swordmasters, Full command, BotwD
12 WL, Standard, Musician, Gleaming pendant
3 x Tiranoc chariots
6 Shadow Warriors

3 x RBTs
1 Eagle


Here are some of the changes i'm pondering in varying levels of probabilities.



High Probability/Almost a certainty Changes:

1.) Ring of Fury is going. The lvl 2 tends to hang out in the archers, and with the ring's range, along with the average PD generation means even putting aside 1 PD for the ring's use tends to mess up the overall flow of the magic phase. While I like the ring, with my current setup it's just not getting any use, and it's points I could spend elsewhere.

2.) Lore on the lvl 2. I like beasts, but the tournament really showed me that the list still struggles against high armor units/tough monsters. Even with 3 bolt throwers, I felt the pressure when facing multiple 1+ save units (played against WoC and Empire). Plus, depending on the terrain, it can be difficult to always use your bolt throwers effectively. I am currently debating between death and metal. I am leaning more towards metal, because with death I would want to put in some spears just for the leadership banner to help the lvl 2 out.

3.) Skycutter i'm still a fan of, but there are some matchups that I find him standing around too much. I want to begin playtesting him with the bolt thrower upgrade with the points saved from the Ring of Fury drop. I'm sure there's a lot of head smacking from anyone reading, but with high magic I think it can work, and honestly having the skycutter threaten flanks with the bolt thrower is a lot better than me standing off against 1+ save units (as I did in the tournament against the WoC and empire player).

4.) Bows on reavers instead of spears. Most units I am in combat with don't need the S4, and the extra S3 shots always seem to get mileage.

5.) Trimming down the Tiranoc unit. I honestly love this unit, I can't lie about it. I am trimming it down is not because it wasn't working. I actually only had one bad game with them, and that was because a steam tank was directly across from the unit, and after being forced to charge it I managed to get 3 wounds by the armor, so even then it wasn't a completely let down. But still, I realize that i'll need extra points in order to build up areas of weakness, and this is the unit to trim. I'm playing around with cutting 1-2, but it all depends on what I decide to put in.

Mid Probability changes

1. Splitting up the archer block into 2 different units for allowing me multiple target options.

2. Converting the current mounted BSB to one on foot with the reaver bow/potion of strength.

3. Putting in another eagle for when I need to use the SW unit as a bunker for the above BSB combo or the mage.

4. Dropping the SM unit down to 20 and deploy them 7x3 as default instead of the current 6x4. It's only dropping 3 models, but for some reason it leaves me with an icky feeling of being less secure with the drop in rank and gain in 4 attacks...I don't know.

5. Raising the WL unit to 18 strong instead of the 12. The 12 is doing exactly what I want it to do, and it doing it wonderfully. However if i'm dropping the combat potential of the Tiranoc unit, then i'm going to need another viable combat threat, and 18 strong lion units work just fine.

6. If not the added eagle, then another SW unit. I really do like these guys. I have gotten very comfortable with my 6 man unit, and adding another one would give me a solid mage bunker / foot BSB option, or simply an added chaff/warmachine hunting unit.

Low Probability Changes

1. Dropping the archers altogether and replacing them with spears with the leadership banner if I go death on my lvl 2 mage. They'd function as a support block that marches behind or alongside the main line, functioning as a speed bump when I need it.

2. Thinking about putting in a Phoenix.

3. Possibly going back to a Seahelm on Skycutter with Reaver bow/ Potion of Strength to replace my current standard skycutter.

Thoughts?

_________________
"BLOOD AND BERRYWINE!"
Image

Northern Virginia Gaming
Approach to Balance


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group