Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development- 1st report up!

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de kaasboer
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Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development- 1st report up!

#1 Post by de kaasboer »

Introduction of the Setting:
First of all, i am just going to post the list i have used last game vs Skaven, and (variations of) which i will probably use a lot in the local campaign starting this weekend. The campaign itself is a map based campaign i designed together with a friend (most credit goes to him actually), after we (kind of) finished our last blood in the badlands based campaign.

In the campaign we are allowed to write 3 different generals, which can stem from 2 different armies. My 2 armies will be High elves and Warriors of Chaos; Elves being my main army, with warriors chipping in now and then for some variation.

Some short notes:
-ETC 2013 restrictions will be used
-We have 2 teams, with shifting alliances every 3 rounds
-Ever player can use 2 armies, 6 players are participating, so a large variety of forces.
So far i know the following armies will be used:
In my team there is a player using Beastmen or Dwarfs,
and a player using Brettonians and (TBD).

The Opposing Team consists of
a player using Empire & WoC,
a player using VC and O&G,
and a player using Skaven and (TBD)

-Our group consists of a mix of long time(although quite inactive in the past year) tournament players and casual players. the primary objective is ofcourse to have some nice games, rather than winning it all, although this doesnt mean people aren't competitively minded, or afraid of using a filthy trick or two...

A Short introduction of my choice of army:
I have always been a fan of MSU style armies, almost exclusively playing (semi)MSU style lists since 6th edition, starting with hordes of chaos back then, with elves grabbing my attention by the end of 7th and into 8th. in 6th and (mainly 7th i played a lot of tournaments, quite often finishing in decent spots. Since 8th i didn't participate in many tournaments anymore (i think like 5 total) but i like playing serious games now and then, but in a more casual setting.

my armies have always been movement focused, with magic and shooting mainly being facilitating factors to ensure the most optimal combats. with the new book, the approach to high elves hasn't really changed, although the tools at hand have. I will later add a rationale to the unit choices i made and how all these units should work together in a combined arms approach.

I have named the current list "The Real MSU" because the starting point of this list was to get as MANY effective units in there as possible. This meant skipping out on multiple characters, Dragon Prince Busses and Flying Monsters, which are all powerful tools, but on the other hand this allows for a list with no less than 21 (!) drops. If this thread evolves, so will the list, and i will also include other lists i have played, possibly with battle reports (if i can find the time somewhere...)

Right, on to the list:

Characters
Sarathai the Avenger, Heir to the Shadow Throne
Loremaster of Hoeth

with Book of Hoeth, Reaver Bow, Potion of strength 330

Sagitar, Champion of the cult of light & shadows
Noble BSB

Barded steed, Star lance, Dragon helm, Heavy Armour, Great weapon, Shield 160

Core:
9 Silver Helms
shields, standard 217
5 Silver Helms
Shield s 115
5 Silver Helms
Shields 115
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Spear s 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Spear s 80

Special

5 Swordmasters of Hoeth 65
5 Swordmasters of Hoeth 65
5 Swordmasters of Hoeth 65
10 White Lions of Chrace 130
7 Shadow Warriors 98
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor 145
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor 145
Tiranoc Chariot 70
Tiranoc Chariot 70
Tiranoc Chariot 70

Rare

1 Eagle Claw Boltthrower 70
1 Eagle Claw Boltthrower 70
1 Great Eagle 50
1 Great Eagle 50
5 Sisters of Avelorn 70
5 Sisters of Avelorn 70

Army Total: 2400

So; a shitload of drops, some decent shooting, versatile magic, and fast and hard hitting combat units. except the characters, everything is sacrificial if need be, and due to martial progress i can cram many units into a small frontage. So, what is not to like?

Well;
-lack of a scroll. somewhat mitigated by the absence of good targets for many of the scary spells.
-lack of protection on my BSB. i had luckstone on him earlier but had to drop it because i was a few points over
-lack of units to join my Loremaster to. ofcourse he can deploy in lions but that would negate his shooting potential. he can join shadow warriors later on, but not when they scout ahead. he could join sisters, but that would mean only 1 has to die to remove his LoS. still in doubt here. an option would be to join the 2 sister units into 1 unit of 9 or 10.

well, that's it so far. any questions, suggestions, comments or outcries about my idiocy?


Disclaimer: The term "Real" MSU has nothing to do with other players on here practicing MSU armies of their own, just with the amount of drops i can deploy compared to my previous version of this list (which was actually more cavbus + MSU) :mrgreen:

cheers,

J
Last edited by de kaasboer on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#2 Post by de kaasboer »

Reserved for Rationale on the army and older lists
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#3 Post by de kaasboer »

I posted this rambling in another thread earlier but though it might fit here as well:

Has MSU become better or Worse in the new book?

While i am not sure the new HE book has taken an overal rise in power due to losing out on 2 of our most powerful tools (Potent Magic & ASF great weapons) i DO actually think the MSU concept is alive and kicking, and has maybe even taken a boost. While some of the downsides of the new book for this concept are clear and have been mentioned before (mainly the 2 named above, and the fact that hitting in 3 ranks mainly comes into effect in larger units), there are some things that boost MSU as well:

1) Lower point cost -
While it may not seem too significant, in my opinion there is a major difference in sacrificing a 90-105 point (6-7-man) Swordmaster unit, or a 65 point (5-man) SM unit. Before, i used these mostly as glasscannons, and rarely as speedbumps. In the new book i find it easier to also use them in a sacrificial role if necessary. One of the main strengths of the MSU concept is that (nearly) everything should be expendable if the situation so desires.

2) Martial Progress
Indeed hitting in 3 ranks seems to be made for larger units but don't underestimate the frontage a multitude of units requires of they are all in 1 or 2 ranks, and thus 5-6 models wide. The fact that you can put many units in columns of 2 or 3 wide and not lose significant damage output greatly enhances a) your concentrated damage output b)your ability to charge multiple units into one enemy unit. and c) your mobility; smaller frontage, more units, more mobility.

3) New Units in previously under-used slots:
Don't underestimate the power of our new core: In the old book our core was mainly a 'tax' which could be used to some effect to either remove chaff, provide ranks or provide your army with additional (although expensive) chaff. In the new book these exact roles can still be provided, but the both the chaff removal and chaff providing roles have greatly improved. In addition, core silverhelms are an EXCELLENT addition to small elite (infantry) units. While the elites provide you with massive killing power, the helms can absorb the brunt of the opposing units output if positioned correctly. In addition, silverhelm darts can win a lot of fights for at least 1 round to pin an enemy unit into place and thus provide you with the opportunity to setup a mass-charge the turn after. And at 115 points for 5, these units are still perfectly sacrificial if they need to be.
-an additional benefit of our new troop selection shard is that you don't have to over-invest in characters anymore. In the old book i often had the problem that if i wrote a list to play character light, i always found i invested over 50% in special points. Of course this is not allowed so i had to include one more character than i really wanted (luckily our characters were awesome so it wasn't really a problem, but still something to mention) with the new rare section, more interesting core, and cheaper specials, i don't see this problem occurring anymore. Better slot selection allows for a more balances army and less restrictive choices.

4) Better shooting.
Eagle Claw Boltthrowers and shadow warriors have become cheaper, sisters have some added value, and can be played in very small units, the Reaver bow is almost an auto include now. While our shooting does not destroy armies, it can remove very important threats, as well as help you win the chaff war.[i} In the 7th book we had magic for this role. now; [i}we have a weaker magic phase, supported by some substantial shooting.[/i]

5) flying & highly mobile units
These kind of units are the crux of an MSU force in my opinion. Helms and reavers have become core (helms also became a lot better due to fighting in 3 ranks) dragon princes became better and cheaper, tiranoc chariots have become cheaper, and we got some awesome new phoenix units. Our flying chariot does also fit very well in MSU style armies, even though i so far fail to see how they are worth 25 points over a simple tiranoc. in the battles i played with the new book i tried frost phoenixes, which are great, still have to try the flame phoenix, which seems interesting but inferior to the frost phoenixes, and phoenix-less list; which i named as "the real MSU", because phoenixes can, even if they are awesome, present too much of a target compared to the other cheap units you would deploy. Additionally we can mount most of our characters allowing for a broad selection of flying and highly mobile units.

I have so far found the mass MSU army extremely fun to play, and with so many units, all the tools are available to beat any opponent.

Cheers,

J
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#4 Post by Siege »

Looks like a lot of fun! Definitely looking forward to your battle reports.

A minor note on optimizing your BSB:

Noble BSB
Barded steed, Star lance, Dragon helm, Heavy Armour, Great weapon, Shield 160

Should probably be equipped with Dragon Armor and Enchanted Shield instead of Dragonhelm, Heavy Armor, and Shield. Not only is this the cheaper equipment option, but you gain a 6+ ward.
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#5 Post by joey_boy »

I like it! There are som minor things Id recommend. The LM only has BS4 so the bow is not that great on him. If you swap it for sword of might and merwyrm he can deal better with CC, the other option is going with 10 sisters instead of 2*5 and buying mr3 for the LM so he can join the sisters or SW and stay out of CC and only cast while providing some magic protection for his unit(and for himself against Death snipes).

Also, Halberd for the BSB. Its only s5, but you get the re-roles. Golden crown can also be nice if you find the points.
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#6 Post by daid13 »

The problem with what Siege suggested is that he loses 2 points of armour rather than 1 when he's using the great weapon.
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#7 Post by de kaasboer »

Siege wrote:Looks like a lot of fun! Definitely looking forward to your battle reports.

A minor note on optimizing your BSB:

Noble BSB
Barded steed, Star lance, Dragon helm, Heavy Armour, Great weapon, Shield 160

Should probably be equipped with Dragon Armor and Enchanted Shield instead of Dragonhelm, Heavy Armor, and Shield. Not only is this the cheaper equipment option, but you gain a 6+ ward.
As Daid13 pointed out, i do disagree here because it is not possible to use the shield in turns after the charge. While the value of the Starlance bsb is biggest on the charge, it will sometimes be necessary to receive a charge with this unit (he usually joins the largest helm unit) as well, as it is the only unit with some bodies in the whole list. In such cases i'd like my bsb to be fairly solid, rather than having a 3+ save

i do agree that this build might not be optimal, i actually had to drop the luck stone and potion of foolhardiness because i was short on points. i will think some more about the value of the starlance, as it certainly reduces his survivability somewha; on the other had it is one of the few real high strength tools in the army. certainly a point to discuss!
joey_boy wrote:I like it! There are som minor things Id recommend. The LM only has BS4 so the bow is not that great on him. If you swap it for sword of might and merwyrm he can deal better with CC, the other option is going with 10 sisters instead of 2*5 and buying mr3 for the LM so he can join the sisters or SW and stay out of CC and only cast while providing some magic protection for his unit(and for himself against Death snipes).

Also, Halberd for the BSB. Its only s5, but you get the re-roles. Golden crown can also be nice if you find the points.
@halberd on the BSb: yes i have used that as well, and liked it. as said above though, he will probably come up against quite some high toughness or armoursave units, and that is where s6 vs s5 matters a lot. not 100% decided yet, though, halberd is certainly an option.

@LM bs4... how can i have missed that?? i just assumed he had all the stats the same as a noble except for the 3rd wound... certainly makes the bow+potion less powerful on him.
I was indeed thinking about joining the 2 units of sisters together as his retinue, but another option would be to make him more combat capable. In the 7th book he always was mounted (prince with gem, lore of death) but alas, that is not possible anymore.
i do really like the spell versatility the LM provides, but it might be worthwhile to look at an archmage instead.
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#8 Post by de kaasboer »

Ok this week i will give a short report on my last battle against skaven. i dont have any pictures of it but will try to describe it as clearly as possible (i will use battle chronicler later on but atm i am a bit short on time to learn to properly use that XD )

and my first matchup for the campaign has been decided, i play agains a rather easy going guy but with a very hard army. oh, and he has a 100 point advantage due to the campaign moves

game 1:
2.4K MSU HE vs 2.5K WoC


i am pretty sure his list will include a nurgle DP, a 3+ ward daemonic steed BSB, 2-4 (gore and normal) chariots, and 1 chimaera. he is also very fond of dragonogres so i can expect 2 units of 4 dragon ogres and a shaggoth. all in all, propably not the most optimized list, but with some VERY scary aspects

to be continued...
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#9 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi there,

I didn't comment earlier as I don't think I am that good in discussing army lists. But I wanted to say that I am obviously very interested in your games and I am already looking forward to reading your battle reports. I am very glad MSU concept starts to attract more players and as we can see, every one of them has his own unique ideas. Variety for the win!

Good Luck with your game and do not keep us waiting too long for the report! It is always great to discuss the army in the context of particular game.

Cheers!
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Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#10 Post by de kaasboer »

hey Swordmaster, glad to have you interested :D

i have actually been playing MSU for quite some years, but have always (more or less) followed you blog with great interest because you were one of the few to not only go against "internet wisdom", but also report your struggles, successes and thoughts online. i might not have reacted too often but i've been an avid reader ;)

i have drawn up a deployment diagram of my last game, and must say it is always harder than you think to remember details. Upcoming games i will try to make some photos to help me out :P might have some time to write a bit up later this evening.

cheers,

J
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#11 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi de kaasboer,

Thanks! I am glad you found my battle reports entertaining! While it is always nice to get some feedback I am happy to know it is something you like to read. Cheers for that!

I know how difficult it is to remember all the details necessary to write the report without any major flaws. I would never attempt to do so without some pictures. And even then there is often a situation I cannot recall what exactly had happened. So no pressure! It is simply nice to have maps and pictures to have a better idea what the game looked like. Other than that there is always room for some highlights. As long as you keep posting something there will be a discussion!

Cheers!
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#12 Post by de kaasboer »

Ok, still not done with the skaven report, a bit busy at the moment

however, i will have a game vs dwarfs (anvil, miner, ranger list) this evening. i will try to make some pics.

I am re-evaluating some of the choices in my list atm, among them the loremaster with reaver bow. he is not going to cast a lot vs dwarfs anyway, but not sure what to do with him.
Another choice i am not sold on are the lions; never been my favorite unit really but i will probably keep them in for now.

hopefully an update will follow this evening or tomorrow!

cheers,

J
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#13 Post by de kaasboer »

Ok, sorry for the lack of updates. have been very busy, and did not get around to playing the league game untill last friday. i made some (bad quality pictures with my phone so i can do a short battle report tomorrow.

about the dwarf game i played before this, i was up against an anvil list, and all was going very well up until t2, i managed to get a front and flank combo charge on a large unit of longbeard rangers if it were not for a single dragon slayer to survive my helm-bus charge and prevent them from overrunning into the flank of the ig combat. this resuloted in him testing steadfast instead of insane courage, turning a one round break-through into a grind fest, which msu elfs dont like. In the end it was a minor victory for me after a very hard fight.

onto the game vs WoC:

the report will follow later but here are the lists:

Sarathai's Avengers: 2.4K High Elfs

Characters
Sarathai the Avenger, Heir to the Shadow Throne
Loremaster of Hoeth
with Book of Hoeth

Sagitar, Champion of the cult of light & shadows
Noble BSB
Barded steed, Star lance, charmed shoeld, Heavy Armour, Great weapon, other trickster's shard

Core:
9 Silver Helms
shields, standard, champions 217
5 Silver Helms
Shield s 115
5 Silver Helms
Shields 115
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Spears 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Spears 80

Special

5 Swordmasters of Hoeth 65
5 Swordmasters of Hoeth 65
5 Swordmasters of Hoeth 65
10 White Lions of Chrace -champion 140
6 Shadow Warriors 84
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor 145
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor 145
Tiranoc Chariot 70
Tiranoc Chariot 70


Rare

1 Eagle Claw Boltthrower 70
1 Eagle Claw Boltthrower 70
1 Eagle Claw Boltthrower 70
1 Great Eagle 50
1 Great Eagle 50
5 Sisters of Avelorn 70
5 Sisters of Avelorn 70



basicly i played around with my characters a bit (not sure yet how they are best run, but i'm gettiing very fond of the Loremasters spells) swapped my 3rd chariot for a 3rd boltthrower to get a more respectable shooting phase, and added a champion left and right to absorb nasty characters.

i was up against (not sure on all the details, but should be correct)

2.5k (due to campaign rules) Evil Twins and Their Zoo (C)

Daemon Prince lvl4, nurgle, chaos armour, charmed shield (something more?)
Exalted Hero BSB on Daemonic steed with 1+ armour, 3+ ward and a great weapon
Exalted Hero on Daemonic steed with 2+ armour, 3+ ward and a great weapon

3 slaanesh chariots
3x 5 slaanesh marauders horsemen
1x 5 vanguarding dogs

4 dragon ogres with additional hand weapons
Chimaera with regen

Shaggoth
Hellcannon

i think that's about it

nice prospect to face huh?

any bets on the outcome or how to handle certain aspects? (the game as already been played so i know the outcome but i'm still interested to hear any input)

Cheers,

J
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#14 Post by de kaasboer »

Hmm i just realized Sarathai's avengers sounds a bit much like curu ollanons avengers... will have think of a different name for my army of shadow-elves i guess ;)
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#15 Post by Eltherion »

I like your lists very similar to mine with lack of Musicians which MSU may not require as much as armies with bigger units, due to the smaller sized units flexibility.

I notice you dropped the bow & potion off the Loremaster. What about trying the the Ring of Fury? I guess he doesn't need the extra spell but 2D6 Str 4 is great vs. Skaven, Greenskins and possibly Dwarves.

I like the inclusion of the 3rd Eagle Claw it will assist the army better than a 3rd Chariot. The key to the RBT's is to ensure they stay alive long enough to get 5 or 6 rounds of shooting.

I like your BSB build however it will be risky sending him off into combat to die and losing your BSB leadership re-rolls for the army? You could maybe include a second Noble as the BSB with Reaver, Bow Potion Strength Charmed shield build. However you would need to lose some points elsewhere.

The other thing about your list there are no real anvil units apart from the white lions.

Dealing with the WoC

Firstly I would be deploying your army back from the center line as you are likely to move second anyway and the WoC list is very fast. Watch out for the Demon Prince and Chimera as they may have breathe weapons (so fly 20"s then breathe attacks) this can happen turn 1.

My priority target would be the Chimera so Fireballs, Shems Burning Gaze, on the Chimera. Followed up in the shooting phase with the Sisters negating the Regen then the RBT's finishing the Chimera off.

The HE chaff should be able to deal with the WoC chaff. Small Silver Helm or Reaver units combined with Shadow Warriors.

The Hellcannon is a problem but could be hard to eliminate so you may have to cop the damage. Unless you can get some cavalry into it?

Maybe slow down the Shaggoth or Dragon Ogres with Miasma.

Combo charges with the Cavalry Bus and DP's.

White Lions & SM's for the Dragon Ogres.
2008-2013 Wins:Draws:Losses
7th Ed High Elves 18 : 9 : 4 Bargle Con I, Best General, 3rd Overall
New High Elf Book 16 : 1 : 5 Bargle Con II, 2nd Overall, Conviction 2nd Overall & Best Sportsman

MSU List: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=48650
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#16 Post by de kaasboer »

@ Eltherion:
Thanks a lot for your reply! i will get into list building aspects after the report, but in regards to your tips on dealing with WoC:
Firstly I would be deploying your army back from the center line as you are likely to move second anyway and the WoC list is very fast. Watch out for the Demon Prince and Chimera as they may have breathe weapons (so fly 20"s then breathe attacks) this can happen turn 1.
There is indeed no requirement to deploy forward as far as possible as the WoC is indeed very fast. however one advantage of doing so is you can actually flee a charge t2 without too much risk of running off the board.
My priority target would be the Chimera so Fireballs, Shems Burning Gaze, on the Chimera. Followed up in the shooting phase with the Sisters negating the Regen then the RBT's finishing the Chimera off.
I indeed listed the chimaera as a priority target, it has insanely high dmg output, but is quite vulnerable to my magic and shooting. we will see how that turned out...
The HE chaff should be able to deal with the WoC chaff. Small Silver Helm or Reaver units combined with Shadow Warriors.
If you cant win the chaff war with an MSU army, you might as well packup and leave. ok that is maybe a bit of an overstatement, but im confident that with 2x fastcav, 2 eagles, decent anti cahff shooting, 2 chariots en 2 small units silver helms i should be able to out-chaff anyone. with backup-chaff in swordmasters en sisters im quite confident this wont be a problem.
The Hellcannon is a problem but could be hard to eliminate so you may have to cop the damage. Unless you can get some cavalry into it?
The HC is nasty, and needs full attention of multiple units toget rid off. with some many other threats, and only the bigger helm unit as a decent target for it's shooting, i figured i would ignore it for the first turns and deal with it later on, if possible.
Maybe slow down the Shaggoth or Dragon Ogres with Miasma.
jeah slowing down with miasma would be nice. but i only got so many powerdice, and a lot of threats. actually if i were to slow down something with miasma, i would propably be one of the Tzeentch heroes or the DP. i am quite confident i can handle Drogers or a Shaggoth with a decent combo charge. for those other 2, not so much :(

The unit i spent most time thinking of how to deal with (other than switching to high magic for Vaul's) is the 3+ward T5 high armour BSB. i figured he would bring one, but in the end he brought 2 even (partly due to having an extra 100 points). The positive thing is they dont fly, and hoped i came p with some way to handle at least one. But these things are pretty scary.

I will write the report this evening :)
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#17 Post by de kaasboer »

Sarathai's Shadow Elves (2.4K HE) VS The Evil Twins and their Zoo (2.5K WoC)

Armylists are ETC restricted. Chaos gets extra 100 points due to Campaign events. Lists is previous Post.

Pre-Game Analysis:

-I should win the deployment war, and take on the units i want at the place i want, as far as possible.
-DP has no flying, so all 3 characters can be diverted if needed. DP is more vulnerable to shooting &magic than the other 2, but is unbreakable in combat (and unbeatable for any of my units except when it only has 1 or 2 wounds at the start of combat)
-Single Characters are vunerable to challenges, WOC chars even more so
-Chimaera has insanely high dmg output and can fly, but is kind of a glass cannon. shooting should be able to handle it.
-The HC is nasty, and needs full attention of multiple units to get rid of. With some many other threats, and only the bigger helm unit as a decent target for it's shooting, i figured i would ignore it for the first turns and deal with it later on, if possible.
-The rest of his units, while scary didn't require any specific plan other than don't eat chariot charges and make as many combo charge as possible.

]The armies:[/b]

HE Force
Image
I Had a fully painted and converted 2.5k army in the old book, but in the new book there is still quite some work to be done... (notably reavers, RBT and extra silverhelms.) for now these are proxied with DE models and some dwarf machinery

Chaos Force
Image
my friend has over 8k worth of chaos but he is more of a collector&builder than a painter. also, 1 chariot short, so procied with a hydra. We were playing in a friend's apartment, and didn't finish the table and terrain yet.

Spells:
DP had lore of nurgle, rolling:
-Toughness test or wound breath weapon
+/- d3 Toughness
-Missle with s5 hits, and more hits as long as you fail more T-tests
-T-test vortex

.... great :cry:

My spells were... well you know :roll:

Deployment:
Chaos Deployment
Image


My opponent played overload on the right flank, with 2 monsters, the DP and the BSB going there. The middle was anchored by the hellcannon and on the left the most scary units were the Exalted and the dragon Ogres. To the far left, beyond the exalted, no units were placed.

HE Deployment Left
Image

HE Deployment Right
Image

-I Started my deployment with a lot of redeployable chaff and some fast units on the wings. In reaction to his heavy right side i played a slightly stronger flank on the left, hoping to punch trough on that side, use the middle as my shooting base, and stall the right.
-The white lions were placed "in reserve" on the right, in the hope to be able so challenge and lock either the DP or the BSB later on. The Shadow warriors could have scouted on the left, but i didn't see the merit in this as they would probably just be be ignored if i did. Instead i deployed them centrally as a bunker for my Loremaster.
-The BSB and big helm unit went on the left to counter the Exalted and because i did not want to get locked in combat with the DP.

-I Win the roll for vanguarding, choosing to vanguard on the left first. my right unit of reavers couldn't really go anywhere after his moves so we went on to the roll for the first turn.

And Chaos Begins!

Chaos T1:

Charges on the Left
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As i Hoped, my opponent is rather confident in the abilities of his Exalted hero on the left, and charges both the Hero and 1 chariot into my reavers. the chariot was a long shot so he didn't want to risk not making it and getting blocked. I Held, and both made it in easily, after which he moved up his dragon ogres to be just out of average Silverhelm range.

Movement On The Right
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On The right he moves every forward at near full speed. i must admit my opponent didnt play a lot in the past 2-3 years, so he didnt make the best use of his chaff units. Putting the marauder horsemen right in front of my swordmasters and chariot was pretty good, but the other horsemen and hounds werent put into very useful positions.

The hellcannon Moved up 6 inch to be able to counter any left to middle redeployment. (not sure if this was a good or a bad move. i do think the HC is more dangerous in combat to my units than via shooting. on the other hand, it is so very slow...)

Magic Phase:
roll: 5-6, no channels, lots of scary spells... not good
-I'm not too afraid if the breath weapon yet, and the Toughness buff/debuff is nasty, but i think the vortex needs to be stopped at all costs.
-My opponent starts off with a 3 dice rancid visitations (the magic missile) on one of my cavalry units. he needs a 10 (so 6 before bonusses) and proceeds to roll 2-2-1.

ok... i guess that was lucky :lol: end of magic

-There is no shooting yet, and in combat he utterly crushes the reavers on the left and overruns into a very nice position. (ofcourse he should have reformed, which i mentioned, but it didnt matter a lot for the result)


HE T1
Counter Charges on the Left Wing!
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I seazed the oppprtunity on the left and declared a flank charge with my BSB-bus on the Exalted, and a charge with my dragon Princes on the chariot.

Charge on the Right Wing
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On the right i pondered quite some time what to do.
i had to block some or most of the monsters. i wanted to shoot and magic the chimaera, but it was obscured from nearly all my shooting and could not be blocked in any way due to flying...

In the end i decided to charge the (badly positioned) horsemen with my Dragon Princes, to get them out of the way. They fled and i redirected into the chimaera, hoping i could lock it in combat for 1 turn at least.

For Death or Glory:
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i could Have Charged with my silver helms instead, but felt i had a slightly better change of winning the 1st round with my Dragon Princes. The banner is my old banner of sorcery, but alas they do not have it (or any banner) anymore :(

Table View After T1 Charges
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In the middle my unit of Swordies charged the blocking unit of marauders, on the left a chariot sent some marauders fleeing from his charge, and after this i moved an eagle and unit reavers in position to block the bsb, DP and shaggoth, but tried to keep open my shooting lanes as much as possible. my other units repositioned for later charged. i hoped i could catch an overrunning or reforming bsb or DP with my lions. held the chariot in reserve and moved my loremaster unit so that i was within 24 inch of both the combat on the left wing, and the daemon prince.

magic:
-I think i rolled 4-3. no channels. so 7 dice to play with.
-I figured i should debuff the flank charged exalted on the left so i would win big on CR. if possible i wanted to cast miasma on the chimaera as well. and a 3rd spell to pull dice (actually wyssans would have been nice on the dragon princes but they were just out of 24 inches)
-I started with a 3 dice searing doom on the DP, both to check if it had a flaming ward and otherwise to pull some dice. i rolled very high however (something like 5-5-4) and my opponent decided i would take the chance as it were only d6 hits, he had "only" a 3+ save with charmed shield and a 5+ wardsave.
-I did 4 hits
-He made the charmed save
-I wounded 3 times, he failed all wards.

wow, DP on 1 wound after my 1st spell, awesome!

After this he of course managed to stop my other spells, but i did not care as my shooting line was about to unleash havoc!

Well actually, all my combined shooting managed to literally do nothing except take the last wound of the DP, and kill some hounds. but that was a HUGE blow!

End of HE T1 (right side)
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Beacause the DP was dead, and i won combat by 2 (i made 1 ward save :D ) the DP had to test on its own, low, LD, and fled. My Princes pursued but didnt catch it.

End of HE T1, (Left)
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on the left side my plan worked brilliantly as i did zero wounds to the hero in a challenge, but only took 1 in return. because i had a flank, a charge and 2 banners, this meant a ld5 test without reroll. he failed (rolled 11 so any win would have been enough), i pursued and ran into the chariot which was engaged with the dragon princes. the hero fled slightly further then the helms pursuied, but when in the ensuing combat the chariot broke and was caught by the Dragon Princes, thses ended their move on the fleeing Hero and proceeded to kill it. (is this correct? i think it is but i wasn't 100% sure)

So... after t1 i killed a DP, some chaff and 1 of the heroes. could it get any better?

Chaos T2


Chaos T2 After movement (Left)
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Bad picture sorry. My opponent wanted to counter charge my BSB unit with his dragon ogres, needing a 7 or an 8 to make it. it would hurt but i figured i should hold it on steadfast, allowing me to counter with my other helms and swordmasters.

however... he failed his charge. i admit luck was going my was so far.

-To prevent me from multi (flank) charging his dragon ogres, he moved his rallied horsemen in front of my chariot, and the position next to the church meant i could get only a max of 1 of the units of helms in his front.

Chaos T2 after Combat (Right)
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On the right some things happened: his Horsemen rallied in front of my dragon princes, his BSB charged my reavers (and sent them fleeing after killing 4. his chariot charged and killed my eagle blocking the shaggoth, and the shaggoth charged my unit of sisters overrunning into the flank of my lions. well, the shaggoth could not charge because i blocked it with the eagle, but apparently i was a bit too close (like 0,7 inches away) so had to be placed backwards allowing him to wheel past... normally i wouldn't have allowed this but as i was so clearly ahead i didn't mind too much. let him have some blood as well... :D

He didnt have magic anymore, but his hellcannon killed 3 silverhelms from the bsb unit.

HE T2
After some pondering i charged the 2 units of swordmasters into the chariot, but he fled the 2nd charge. my chariot charged the flank of the shaggoth to lion combat, figuring it could do some wound before dying, and the lions were stubborn anyway.

The dragon princes charged the horsemen in front and reformed. i could have blocked the bsb but decided to allow it to charge isstead, moving my silver helms around it to get out of its arc and view towards the shaggoth combat. i decided to flee any unit the bsb would charge (as far as possible) to allow for 2 rounds of shooting and magic.

On the left (sorry no pictures) after some quick in-head calcualtions if figured that without a bsb or general nearby my BSB unit should break the dragon princes on the charge with a 2-4 margin. so i charged my chariot, swordmasters and 2nd helm unit into the horsemen to get a better path to the center of the table (he couldn't flee because that would allow me to redirect the chariot in the Dragon Ogres' flank)

In magic, my first spell was again searing doom, this time on a his BSB. i used 3 dice, needing 8. i failed (even with reroll) so no more magic this turn...

Shooting didn't do a lot either, putting i think 2 wounds on a chariot with my sisters and shadow warriors, and doing zero dmg to the BSB with my Bolters.

In combat i indeed broke and caught the dragon ogres, but i lost my chariot and 2 lions vs 4 wounds on the shaggoth. the lions held.

WoC T3:
he decided to charge the BSB into the lion combat to get out of the hail of missiles. he killed 3 more helms with his Hellcannon and failed a very long charge with his non-fleeing chariot. the other chariot rallied.
in the only combat my lion chamion challenged, and was stomped into the ground by the daemon steed. this gave me a chance for a decent result as i only needed to do 2 wounds to the shaggoth with 7 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 3s.

however i did 0 wounds, and the shaggoth proceeded to kill all the lions with his attacks and thunerstomp. so much for challenging that bsb to hold him for a round... #-o

Chaos & HE T3 & T4
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i encircled and charged the HC, charged the shaggoth with the silverhelms and detroyed the last chariots with shooting and combat (actually his chariot did 3 wounds on my 4 charging Dragon princes. i had done 3 wounds as well so it had to test and fled :roll: )

Chaos & HE t5 & 6
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The end game only featured me blocking his BSB and aiming every spell and gun i had at him. in t5 i did 1 wound. in t6 i managed to finish him off with my last boltthrower. these things are tough...

Well that was it. it was a 20-0 victory to the elves with me losing around 700 points (2 eagles, 2x reavers, 1 chariot, half of the bug helm unit, 1 unit of sisters and half a dragon prince unit) while i tabled him

Ofcourse this game was not so exciting from T2 onwards because i managed to kill his DP and one of the heroes so soon. still; this is the the first report i have ever made so see it as a practice match in terms of battle reports :D

Oh, and due to campaign rules my silverhelms became reknown :mrgreen: meaning that if i play with this army (on the map) again, my large unit of helms will have the devastating charge rule... Awesome!

Any comments on the way i report, on the game, on the uglyness of our models or whatever else is on you mind, will be greatly appreciated :mrgreen:

cheers,

J
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Eltherion
Posts: 560
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Location: Tasmania, Australia
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Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development for League Play

#18 Post by Eltherion »

Great effort for a first Batrep and a nice win as well.
2008-2013 Wins:Draws:Losses
7th Ed High Elves 18 : 9 : 4 Bargle Con I, Best General, 3rd Overall
New High Elf Book 16 : 1 : 5 Bargle Con II, 2nd Overall, Conviction 2nd Overall & Best Sportsman

MSU List: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=48650
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de kaasboer
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:17 am

Re: Sarathai the Avenger - MSU Army Development- 1st report up!

#19 Post by de kaasboer »

@ Eltherion:

Thanks for the kind words :)

To get back to some comments in you earlier posts:
I like your lists very similar to mine with lack of Musicians which MSU may not require as much as armies with bigger units, due to the smaller sized units flexibility.
i do indeed think musicians for 10 points each are most often too expensive on already flexible, low cost units. the main unit i am seriously considering buying a musician on is the Larger Helm Bus, to be able to switch more easily between 3x3+1 and 5x2 Formations, to break steadfast more easily. so far however i did find the banner and standard more important.
I notice you dropped the bow & potion off the Loremaster. What about trying the the Ring of Fury? I guess he doesn't need the extra spell but 2D6 Str 4 is great vs. Skaven, Greenskins and possibly Dwarves.
actually i didn't drop the bow yet in the last battle i played, that was a copy paste error. however i think he didn't hit a single shot all game, with his bs of 4 and the need to move around a lot to be in range and view for the right spells every turn. So i have indeed decided to drop the bow.

regarding the ring of fury; i do see it's merit in a list with an archmage, but with the loremaster's ability to already spam cast missiles if need be (albeit 1d6 vs 2d6 hits when casting on 1d6) i do not really see the merit of ring of fury. in addition, i don't think i have had one phase in the games i played so far where i didn't find a good use for all of my power dice...
I like the inclusion of the 3rd Eagle Claw it will assist the army better than a 3rd Chariot. The key to the RBT's is to ensure they stay alive long enough to get 5 or 6 rounds of shooting.
it was actually a try out vs WoC to better deal with armour, monsters and chaff. But i am sold on it's use for now so it is a (semi)permanent switch :D
I like your BSB build however it will be risky sending him off into combat to die and losing your BSB leadership re-rolls for the army? You could maybe include a second Noble as the BSB with Reaver, Bow Potion Strength Charmed shield build. However you would need to lose some points elsewhere.
i would like to include a reaver bow noble somewhere but i think it is just too many points i should drop elsewhere in order to include him. in addition, i actually feel protecting rather immobile infantry characters with next to no save (like my loremaster) is harder that protecting a mounted 2+ save guy in a cavalry bus.

one of the main advantages of the cavalry bus in an MSU list is that i can (and usually do) always drop it after my opponent has put down his last units. this gives me the option to analyse my opponents weak and strong points in the line before deciding where to put the BSB. More often than not i will put the bus on the side where i feel they can break through more easily, hence exposing him to less danger.

another thing is that i don't always have to race the bus forward as my shooting is quite decent. this gives me the ability to switch between all out attack(" breaking through"), counter attack ("creating threat zones" ) or if needed even defensive ("mobile anvil") almost at will. whatever the situation requires.

regarding possibly losing rerolls: while i am not too afraid of losing my BSB in the first place (as explained above) i don't think his aura is THAT important for my units because:
1) they have a decent leadership of 8 or 9
2) my army is so spread out i can't cover everything anyway
3) when my units have to take a breaktest, they are mostly dying (or being sacrificed) anyway. In an MSU build, you should aim on winning every combat you involve multiple units in. also my units are so small that if they take a few casualties there is hardly a difference between running and dying ;)
4) when one unit panics (and panic is actually the most important function of the bsb) there should most of the time be another to take its place and function.

Still, i do agree my BSB is somewhat lightly protected at the moment, and have decided to switch back to starlance, dragon helm, golden crown for the next battle. also going to try out the halberd rather than the GW (mainly because i was short 2 points :mrgreen: )
The other thing about your list there are no real anvil units apart from the white lions.

i could also use the larger helm unit in such a way if required. In my 7th edition lists i usually had a 30-strong spearmen unit rather than the lions. but so far i have not really missed them much. i did decide to add 2 lions though, to make them a bit more beefy

The last addition was to put the charmed shield on the loremaster, for some protection against cannons or miscast hits :)

So my updated list would look like this:

Sarathai's Avengers: 2.4K High Elfs

Characters
Sarathai the Avenger, Heir to the Shadow Throne
Loremaster of Hoeth
with Book of Hoeth, charmed shield

Sagitar, Champion of the cult of light & shadows
Noble BSB
Barded steed, Star lance, Heavy Armour, halberd, dragon helm, golden crown
Core:
9 Silver Helms
shields, standard, champion
5 Silver Helms
Shield s
5 Silver Helms
Shields
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Spears
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Spears

Special

5 Swordmasters of Hoeth
5 Swordmasters of Hoeth
5 Swordmasters of Hoeth
12 White Lions of Chrace -champion
6 Shadow Warriors
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor
Tiranoc Chariot
Tiranoc Chariot


Rare

1 Eagle Claw Boltthrower
1 Eagle Claw Boltthrower
1 Eagle Claw Boltthrower
1 Great Eagle
1 Great Eagle
5 Sisters of Avelorn
5 Sisters of Avelorn

let me know what you think!

oh and my next battle is against the VC/O&G Player with again 2.4k vs 2.5k

in his last battle he featured: 2x4 vargheists, 8 crypthorrors, 8 blacknights with 2 characters, 2x 5 hexwraiths, ghoul horde (which got switftstride) and a lot of chaff. however that was vs my dwarf teammate. he normally plays a terrorgheist and a blender vampirelord.

His other option would be O&G, where i fear the warmachines (doomdovers are insane vs most of my army) but otherwhise feel pretty confident.

cheers,

J
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