Loremaster's Host

[Loremaster Cephas]

Hello Ulthuan.net community. I have been keeping tabs on WHFB and my beloved High Elves for years, including being an avid reader of these excellent forums. This year I have decided to really get back into the hobby, and along with diving back in I wanted to keep an army blog to chronicle the building and battling of a new HE army. This thread will serve as the overarching army blog with links to painting pics and fluff as well as battle reports in the other forum areas once I get to that.

First things first though I wanted to get some critique on the list I have been mulling over before I start modeling. The idea behind the list is a semi-competitive (I want to win, but don't need to win) all comers list at 2500 pts that has a nice variety of units from our army book to capture the Asur as a whole. I am going to post the list and then follow it with some of my thoughts and reasons for the various choices and how I foresee the army being wielded. I welcome advice and appreciate any comments that you all might make.

Without further ado, the list:

Lords:
Loremaster with Book of Hoeth and Armor of Silvered Steel: 330

Heroes:
Seahelm BSB with the Shield of the Merwyrm, Sword of Might, and Golden Crown of Atrazar: 170

Core:
5 Reaver Knights with Bows and Spears and Musician: 105
5 Reaver Knights with Bows and Spears and Musician: 105
15 Archers with Musician: 160
10 Silver Helms with Shields and Full Command: 260
Total Core: 630

Special:
20 White Lions with Full Command and Banner of Discipline: 305
20 Swordmasters with Full Command and Banner of the World Dragon: 340
5 Dragon Princes with Full Command: 175
Tiranoc Chariot: 70
Total Special: 890

Rare:
Great Eagle: 50
Great Eagle: 50
Repeater Bolt Thrower: 70
Repeater Bolt Thrower: 70
Frostheart Phoenix: 240
Total Rare: 480

Total: 2500

So that is the list. The way I see the army working (pre-testing of course) is as two primary combat teams supported by the missile base and chaff/support units. Each combat team consists of a Elite Infantry Brick holding a character and a heavy cavalry unit. The idea being combo charges with infantry to the front and cavalry to the flank. I will start here with the discussion of army as it is the heart of the list.

Characters:
Loremaster: I was always a fan of the mage knight idea in the old book and was thrilled when this guy was introduced in the new book. As may be apparent with only 500 points of characters, I am going character light. The LM can offer a very potent and varied magic phase. My only concern is the lack of magical defense. A scroll caddie seems like a good idea, but sacrificing 110 points of units that I feel each have a purpose seems a bit extreme. We shall see if the Book of Hoeth, the BotWD, and the extra points used on troops instead of magic can see me through. The Loremaster will sit in the Swordmasters. I originally had him in the lions (with BotWD there as well and the swords with the Lichebone Pendant) but I though that the Swords could really use the regen while advancing (also it was too fluffy to resist).

BSB: Before the uproar begins about the Seahelm. Let me preface it with this. I had written the list and had _ pts left. It was exactly the value of a banner of swiftness for the Dragon Princes. Definitely a good investment, but not crucial. So I brainstormed other ways to use it and came up with the seahelm. My reasoning is as follows: the noble builds I was considering did not significantly augment the combat prowess of the lions against the kind of targets they would likely be asked to fight. On the other hand, the ability to have an extremely forgiving unit in a stubborn re-rolled LD 10 that practically can't be flanked has its appeal to someone who is definitely rusty at the game. If anyone wants to try and convince me not to take the seahelm here are the noble builds I was considering. And yes I am aware that the cost of the seahelm is the same as option A mounted which is the 1+ re-roll build, but I wanted on foot to keep him with the infantry and enable shadow attribute shenanigans.
A: Dragon Armor, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone
B: Dragon Armor, Sword of Might, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown, Iron Curse Icon

Elite Infantry:
My three favorite units for high elves and perhaps the reason I started playing them back in 5th were swordmasters, dragon princes, and chariots. You see all three here. This is obviously one of the key reasons I am going to try and make the swords work. I am a little worried even though they have been proven successful this edition, but that is usually under the eye of a high archmage such as in the High Heavens Swordmaster Combo run by Seredain. Yes the Loremaster can give them a 5+ Regen, but that is one spell the enemy can choose to dispel while the shield is a consequence of any spell. I am determined to make a go of it, although the sharp eyed reader might have already seen that a 20 man sword/lion unit with full command and the banner of discipline + the chariot is the exact cost of 20 Phoenix Guard with full command and the razor standard. So they are on deck should the swords (or Lions) not work out.

Heavy Cavalry:
2 units that supply 11 ASF Strength 5 attacks + 5 steed attacks on the charge. I think the pairing with the infantry will vary based on match-up. Helms will be 5 wide as I think that with the other threats in the army they have a good chance of making it into combat in tack and can help deny some static resolution if in full ranks. If one dies, reform to the lance.

Missile Base:
The "minimum" unit of archers, 2 RBTs. I wanted enough shooting that I would not be forced by an all melee army that bunkers down and is willing to play for draw if I do not attack on his terms. The LMs 3 magic missiles and other damage spells will hopefully augment the shooting base.

Support Units:
A 2 and 2 chaff/re-director setup with the reavers and eagles.
The Chariot is designed to combo with whatever elite infantry unit suffered the most on its way across the board to help make up for its lost potency or clear chaff/protect the RBTs with its threat zone. It also makes a great place saver for another RBT, 5 shadow warriors, of 5 sisters if I feel I need to switch it up. Advice on which of the 4?
Finally good old frosty the snow bird. Help protect my elves. Can act as a 2nd miasma against high initiative opponents. Plus thunder-stop, virtual toughness 7, an armor save, and a ward save. Pure goodness.

Well if you are still reading, thank you. I think that is enough for now. As I said before any advice, critiques, or encouragement is most welcome. Thank you all for all the great posts and topics you have made that inspired me to do this.

[Breezly]

I quite like the list, as I like to run a similar concept (Loremaster MMU in the forums). Being good against all comers, yet, not to over the top. Being able to compete in all phases of the game should be fun for you.

Seahelm: I am a fan, though you will probably get a bunch of negative responses from the folks here regarding optimization. For me, having the ability to pull yourself out of the firs with a reform can be game changing. Instead of your unit taking a flank charge and being taken off, you reform and take theirs off. Even if it happens only once every few games, it is still worth the point in my mind. Plus, it is a stellar model.

Silver Helms: I run my unit in 6, so I am curious as to how your 10 will do. If you are not running a character in the unit, I am not sure having the big a unit is necessary, but YMMV. I have similar core, just more Archers and less SH.

Special: I like the selection you have. I have avoided using the BotWD as I have seen it change a game vs certain opponents, i.e. Daemons, and I just didn't feel right about it. This is a personal choice, but conceptually, I had my loremaster in the swordmasters with the banner and it does great in games. So, I think you will find this to be a good combination in the White Lions. For me, I just can't seem to accept it. Having LD 10 will be handy, and I have looked for ways of getting the BoD in my list, but I can't find a spot for it.

Dragon Princes are great, you may want to think about adding some punch, if you can find the points, for a Drakemaster with Ogre Blade or Spellshield. I have found that after the DP run into something, they struggle in finishing the combat. That could be because I run them into the wrong things, but, having an extra Str in their may help in the long run.

Frosty: Not sure. I have been thinking about adding him in, but in my list, I would have 5 flyers and that offers him some protection. In your list, he is target number 1 and you will not likely see him survive past Turn 2. There are no other priority targets, so you may find him less than effective here. Great model and great rules for sure, but it is a struggle to keep him alive.

Overall, I like it. I think this will be fun to play and fun to play against, and that is how I judge a good list.

--Breezly

[Loremaster Cephas]

Breezly:
Thanks for the comments, and props on the Loremaster MMU list. We have to stick together. Also, double props on the no book & no banner. That is, for lack of a better word at the moment, bold. I completely understand your sentiment about the banner ... but more on that in a second. One final side not regarding your list before I address the comments you made on mine: I love eagle nobles and was very happy to see you fielding a brace of them. Such great synergy between the rider and mount. I feel for 50 points it really boosts a noble with the extra toughness and wound. Okay, back to your response.

Core: An excellent point. I was definitely feeling that my missile base was rather underwhelming with only the 15 archers. Dropping the silver helms to 6 will create a smaller footprint that will make it easier to use as the flanking unit is supposed to be. The drop in attack output can be compensated by committing the chariot alongside it if needed. This will increase the flexibility and utility of my flanking units. If both heavy cavalry units provide very similar attack output then it is harder to customize the appropriate amount of force for each match up across the table. I was going to dump all the points into boosting the archers up to 23 strong with a banner, but after reviewing your list I really like the idea of holding them to 20. Keeping this unit watchtower eligible increases its utility more than 3 extra bow shots. So my new core would emulate yours:
5x Reaver Knights with bows and spear, musician, harbinger
5x Reaver Knights with bows and spear, musician, harbinger
6x Silver Helms with Shields and Full Command
20x Archers with Full Command
628 pts

Dragon Princes: The aim with the DPs is to keep them in a supporting role and therefore reasonably cheap. Ideally they will be smacking whatever unit the SMs or WLs are fighting in the flank. On a larger more prominent unit of DPs however I would definitely give the Drakemaster the ogre blade.

Frosty: Excellent point and one I have been thinking about a lot since you posted it. As I think about it I realize that I just added the frosty because it's really good and I will be able to use it, as opposed to having a specific purpose in mind. There is a lot I could do with the points. The lack of sisters to strip regen in the shooting phase puts a lot of pressure on the loremaster and his missiles against any regen nasties. I could also pick up a scroll caddie to shore up my magic defense on top of it. On the other hand the amount of attention it will receive could be seen as a positive. If the one model can dictate my opponent's deployment and opening turns of play, then that is significant. Drawing cannons off the eagles so they can do their job is a simple example. Considering the amount of drops the list has, I am confident my opponent will have to put down his war machines first, allowing me to plan a way to keep the bird safe. Additionally I would love a nice centerpiece model and with HE having access to so many wonderful flying monsters it would be a shame not to field one. So i guess this is a follow up question for the community: which of these options do you feel fits best with the rest of the list?
A: Frosty
B: Noble on Griffon with heavy armor, lance, shield and dragon helm (better VP denial potential then the frosty but much less utility)
C: 8 sisters with champion, scroll caddie, banner of eternal flame for DPs.

Book & Banner: As I mentioned previously, I understand your sentiment about the banner. It is so amazing it almost dares you not to use it. If I was running this list with a High Archmage in the SMs I would give him the Ironcurse Icon and them the Lichbone Pendant and call it a day. A nice 6++ to build on with shield of saphery against all incoming ranged damage. With the Loremaster and no scroll, however, I really just do not have the confidence in my magical defense to drop it. I think it will be something I continually mull over as I build experience with the list. With regards to the book I have never considered running the Loremaster without it. I know you have the scroll on your LM to shore up defense, but without the book do you find that you can put enough pressure on enemy dispel efforts? It would obviously allow for more protection to be put on the Loremaster (dawnstone and armor of caledor come to mind).

As a final humorous side note. Out of curiosity I glanced at the latest ETC draft for 2014 and this list would be illegal. Here I was worrying it would be too soft

[Breezly]

I love eagle nobles and was very happy to see you fielding a brace of them. Such great synergy between the rider and mount. I feel for 50 points it really boosts a noble with the extra toughness and wound.

With the Loremaster and no scroll, however, I really just do not have the confidence in my magical defense to drop it. I think it will be something I continually mull over as I build experience with the list. With regards to the book I have never considered running the Loremaster without it. I know you have the scroll on your LM to shore up defense, but without the book do you find that you can put enough pressure on enemy dispel efforts? It would obviously allow for more protection to be put on the Loremaster (dawnstone and armor of caledor come to mind).

On the Eagle Nobles, I like the tactical advantages that the flying heroes affords me. Having one made it less effective, so having two provides a defense of sorts for both. This is why I still am considering the Frosty in my list, as a third potent flyer makes the other two more effective. But, I want to see what I can do with the RBT/Shadow Warriors. My concept was more of an elite strikeforce, and the Frosty doesn't quite fit the theme, but only playtesting will bear that out. The SW haven't done a lot in the games I have used them, but I attribute that to lack of experience with them.

As for the Loremaster, I used to run the book. What I find with running him is my magical defense is pretty weak. And, I wasn't rolling minimum dice when casting spells, so while the book helped in some cases, it wasn't that needed. In dispelling, it was similar. I always found that I needed to roll more dice to dispel that one spell, so the book's usefulness was minimized. I expect the Loremaster to get into a few fights so I needed to give him some offensive capabilities, so the book was the one thing to go to get the points, and the dispel scroll was needed to shore up my defense for that one spell I needed to stop. Then, I leave the rest of my dispel dice to stop the one spell each round I need to, depending upon the phase. I have found that I am not as solid in defensive magic, but I am trying to find the best way to compensate for this. I am finding that I am taking some punishment in the Magic Phase, but I am not certain as to the cause of it, whether it is just having a lvl 2 on defense or not having the book. The Scroll helps me there, and I will see how the magic phases go in my next few games. My flyers should also be able to help in putting pressure on the enemy casters, so the list really does need to work together to function. Taken individually, each piece may not seem optimal...taken together, a different story. I just need to figure out how to work it all together effectively...and that is where all the fun comes in

--Breezly

[Loremaster Cephas]

The advice and experience so kindly shared by Breezly kept me thinking about the inclusion of the Frost Phoenix. I realize I really have no clear vision as to how to use the beautiful bird in coordination with the rest of the army other than "hey Phoenix, go be awesome." This coupled with the mainly supportive nature of the monster would discourage it from early combats in favor of waiting to join in the main infantry show downs mid to late game. This in turn will make it harder to protect from artillery as combat is the safest place for our monsters. With these thoughts in mind I have decided to drop the Phoenix. This frees up a ton of points. I have generated two lists that go in slightly different directions and I ask for any thoughts on the lists themselves and in comparison to one another.

List A: Griffon Noble

Lords:
Loremaster with Book of Hoeth and Armor of Silvered Steel: 330

Heroes:
Noble BSB with Dragon Armor, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might, and Dawnstone: 155
Noble on Griffon with Lance, Heavy Armor, Shield, Golden Crown, and tOTS: 257

Core:
5 Reaver Knights with Bows and Spears and Musician, Harbinger: 115
5 Reaver Knights with Bows and Spears and Musician, Harbinger: 115
20 Archers with Full Command: 230
6 Silver Helms with Shields and Full Command: 168
Total Core: 628

Special:
20 White Lions with Full Command and Banner of Discipline: 305
20 Swordmasters with Full Command and Banner of the World Dragon: 340
5 Dragon Princes with Full Command: 175
Tiranoc Chariot: 70
Total Special: 890

Rare:
Great Eagle: 50
Great Eagle: 50
Repeater Bolt Thrower: 70
Repeater Bolt Thrower: 70
Total Rare: 240

Total: 2500

The Griffon Noble is a much more simple tool than the Frosty and is better suited to act as a war-machine hunter and character assassin. Downgrading (or upgrading depending on your view) the Seahelm to a Noble pays for the OTS and enhances his character hunting ability and allows him to function as a OTS delivery system. I feel he has a well defined role in the the list.

List B: Archmage and Loremaster

Lords:
Loremaster with Armor of Silvered Steel, Dispel Scroll and tOTS: 315
Level 4 High Magic Archmage with Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance (5++), and Iron Curse Icon: 310

Heroes:
Noble BSB with Dragon Armor, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown, and Reaver Bow: 155

Core:
5 Reaver Knights with Bows and Spears and Musician: 105
5 Reaver Knights with Bows and Spears and Musician: 105
20 Seaguard with Shields and Full Command: 270
5 Silver Helms with Shields and Full Command: 145
Total Core: 625

Special:
20 White Lions with Full Command and Banner of Discipline: 305
20 Swordmasters with Full Command and Lichbone Pendant: 305
5 Dragon Princes with Full Command: 175
Tiranoc Chariot: 70
Total Special: 855

Rare:
Great Eagle: 50
Great Eagle: 50
Repeater Bolt Thrower: 70
Repeater Bolt Thrower: 70
Total Rare: 240

Total: 2500

I am getting more and more excited about this second list. The addition of the archmage really shores up my magical defense, which was one of my chief concerns with the solo Loremaster. It also creates a very potent magic phase with a lot of redundancy built in. I think I would operate the Loremaster like the level 2 he is: contributing the 2 most influential of his selection for that phase (unless the Archmage loses concentration). The Archmage would sit with the Swords, Loremaster with the Lions, and BSB with the Seaguard. This setup allows me to put a good amount of protection on both the Swordmasters and Lions with Shield of Saphery and the Life Signature. With the two infantry blocks well taken care of I decided to give the BSB a different role. With the reaver bow in the Seaguard I think they can function as a good missile base (especially with Hand of Glory boosted shooting) as well as a second line support unit. The one aspect of this list that is still undecided is tOTS on the Loremaster vs Banner of Eternal Flame for the Dragon Princes.

Thanks again to any readers and double thanks to respondents.