Mals Blog- US Masters
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog - Archmage on Dragon Game 1
But using heavens I don't feel like a dirty cannon wielding whore
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Re: Mal's Blog - Archmage on Dragon Game 1
People can throw labels around all they like, you are who are, stay strong!! On a serious note though, I had an ogre player get a little bit upset that I had a flying death mage because I ended up just purple sunning the win (better game than it sounds but I won't go into detail) but at the end of the day my general and level 4 was incredibly vulnerable all game and he simply didn't dedicate enough to killing him and paid the price. I should mention that he was on an eagle in that particular list but its the same principle.
Fervent dragon addict and Australian warhammer enthusiast
@THR1LLHELM
@THR1LLHELM
Re: Mal's Blog - Archmage on Dragon Game 1
Ogre players field chariot cannons, can't really complain.
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Re: Mal's Blog - Archmage on Dragon Game 1
To be fair, I warded 3/3 of his shots that hit my AM on a 4++. I probably would've been mad too. But it was game 1 of day 2 and I was borderline still drunk from the night before so... party on?
Fervent dragon addict and Australian warhammer enthusiast
@THR1LLHELM
@THR1LLHELM
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Re: Mal's Blog - Archmage on Dragon Game 1
Another quick thought. Heavens really helps in the mirror match and against our dark kin.
I think I'll end up subbing the star lance for the ring of fury...
I think I'll end up subbing the star lance for the ring of fury...
Re: Mal's Blog - Archmage on Dragon Game 1
Great result on that game Mal seeing as you had a bit of a disaster turn 1! Well done.
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Re: Mal's Blog - Archmage on Dragon Game 1
So I'm starting to think my luck with the dragon is going to run out soon. I've not had many match ups against super scary gunlines and if I were to enter a tournament and draw the opponents John Rainbow did I'd be in pretty bad shape!
So i'm taking some lessons I learned from the dragon experiements and applying them into a new list.
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Archmage - Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, 5+ Ward, Eagle - 345 (Lore of Death)
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage - Lvl 2, Steed, Dispel Scroll - 155 (Lore of Beasts)
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Spears - 80
10x Silver Helms w. Full Command - 260
7x Dragon Princes w. Full COmmand, Banner of the World Dragon, Star Lance - 313
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
2498. I've also thought about swapping the Silver Helms with 2x12 Archers w. Banner.
Thoughts?
So i'm taking some lessons I learned from the dragon experiements and applying them into a new list.
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Archmage - Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, 5+ Ward, Eagle - 345 (Lore of Death)
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage - Lvl 2, Steed, Dispel Scroll - 155 (Lore of Beasts)
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Spears - 80
10x Silver Helms w. Full Command - 260
7x Dragon Princes w. Full COmmand, Banner of the World Dragon, Star Lance - 313
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
2498. I've also thought about swapping the Silver Helms with 2x12 Archers w. Banner.
Thoughts?
Re: Mal's Blog - Archmage on Dragon Game 1
I'd stick with the Helms.They provide alot more damage interdiction,and can possibly hold up strong enemies long enough for reinforcements to arrive.
2+ AS combos w/ the str debuffs as well.
2+ AS combos w/ the str debuffs as well.
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Re: Mal's Blog - Changing it up
Some more tweeks! Super combined arms style approach. On paper this could be pretty nasty. And I even spent more than the Core tax had to put my archmage somewhere...
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed – 271
Archmage - Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth - 265 (Lore of Shadow)
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage - Lvl 2, Elven Steed, Crown of Command - 165 (Lore of Beasts)
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Spears - 80
9x Silver Helms w. Standard Musician - 227
10x Archers - 100
7x Dragon Princes w. Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Ogre Blade - 323
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
2500/2500
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed – 271
Archmage - Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth - 265 (Lore of Shadow)
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage - Lvl 2, Elven Steed, Crown of Command - 165 (Lore of Beasts)
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Spears - 80
9x Silver Helms w. Standard Musician - 227
10x Archers - 100
7x Dragon Princes w. Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Ogre Blade - 323
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
2500/2500
Last edited by Malossar on Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Mal's Blog - Cav Bus + Combined Arms Approach.
Hey Mal
Looks like a good build to me. Personally i'd be a little nervous about hiding an archmage in 10 archers, its an easy target to get alot of points out of a simple panic, i could probably shoot it enough to start putting wounds on the archmage itself and 10 archers themselves aren't likely to be game changing. At very least i'd perhaps consider switching the archers for spears, just to get a few more bodies on the field. Whilest they obviously have less effect at range, 10 bow shots are less likely to change a game than losing your lvl 4. Having a bit of armour on the bunker discourages BS based shooting also, and even if you could scrape the points for 15 spears, you'll have a useful little unit to play around with. Also could throw a magic standard here, flaming banner might discourage regen monsters from a charge, or discipline might be useful if the BSB and Prince are off hunting outside 12" range.
I'd also think about droping spears on the reavers and going for a muso instead, just my experience but rallying on 9 rather than 8 can be game changing with them (happened in a game for me the other day). Playing scrolless is playing with fire to me, but a lvl 4 is a great dispeller.
As a side note, in that game i managed to kill a chimera with 5 reavers charging the rear of him (which just because this never happens, he gets +1 to hit with his extra d3 attacks, just because they weren't good enough anyway) and mindrazoring them. Probably the smallest unit i've ever mindrazored on 6 dice, but definitely the biggest target i've netted with reavers!
Other than that, list looks very solid to me! Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
Looks like a good build to me. Personally i'd be a little nervous about hiding an archmage in 10 archers, its an easy target to get alot of points out of a simple panic, i could probably shoot it enough to start putting wounds on the archmage itself and 10 archers themselves aren't likely to be game changing. At very least i'd perhaps consider switching the archers for spears, just to get a few more bodies on the field. Whilest they obviously have less effect at range, 10 bow shots are less likely to change a game than losing your lvl 4. Having a bit of armour on the bunker discourages BS based shooting also, and even if you could scrape the points for 15 spears, you'll have a useful little unit to play around with. Also could throw a magic standard here, flaming banner might discourage regen monsters from a charge, or discipline might be useful if the BSB and Prince are off hunting outside 12" range.
I'd also think about droping spears on the reavers and going for a muso instead, just my experience but rallying on 9 rather than 8 can be game changing with them (happened in a game for me the other day). Playing scrolless is playing with fire to me, but a lvl 4 is a great dispeller.
As a side note, in that game i managed to kill a chimera with 5 reavers charging the rear of him (which just because this never happens, he gets +1 to hit with his extra d3 attacks, just because they weren't good enough anyway) and mindrazoring them. Probably the smallest unit i've ever mindrazored on 6 dice, but definitely the biggest target i've netted with reavers!
Other than that, list looks very solid to me! Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
Re: Mal's Blog - Cav Bus + Combined Arms Approach.
Yeah, I'm not sure about the 10x Archers with AM. Looks like against a more shooty list, it can suffer overwhelming amounts of damage and you could lose your AM really early. From the looks of it, this looks very similar to your first list. Why not just run that with another lore?
Or run something like this:
2485
10 drops
Prince = 276
Knight, Dragon Helm, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, PoFools
Noble = 170
Knight, BSB, Eshield, OTS, Star Lance
Lv.4 Shadow Archmage = 340
Elven Steed, Book, Stubborn Crown, Golden Crown
5x Reavers, Bows, Spears = 95
5x Reavers, Bows, Spears = 95
5x Reavers, Bows, Spears = 95
5x Reavers, Bows, Spears = 95
10x Silver Helms, FC = 260
11x DPs, FC, Ogre Blade, BotWD = 439
2x Phoenix = 480
2x RBT = 140
Or run something like this:
2485
10 drops
Prince = 276
Knight, Dragon Helm, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, PoFools
Noble = 170
Knight, BSB, Eshield, OTS, Star Lance
Lv.4 Shadow Archmage = 340
Elven Steed, Book, Stubborn Crown, Golden Crown
5x Reavers, Bows, Spears = 95
5x Reavers, Bows, Spears = 95
5x Reavers, Bows, Spears = 95
5x Reavers, Bows, Spears = 95
10x Silver Helms, FC = 260
11x DPs, FC, Ogre Blade, BotWD = 439
2x Phoenix = 480
2x RBT = 140
Last edited by HERO on Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mal's Blog - Cav Bus + Combined Arms Approach.
I'd put the AM on a steed and run him in the bus w/ the others.You only lose one str 5 by doing so.
Re: Mal's Blog - Cav Bus + Combined Arms Approach.
I think the 10 Archers can do just fine. Hunkering next to the RBTs is a pretty safe place, since most light units won't survive the shooting if you really feel like there's danger getting close to them. With all those redirectors as well, plus two Phoenixes, I think you have plenty of mobility to either redirect or tarpit any potential threats that get too close. Shooting is a potential threat, but in that case you can probably keep them deployed ultra-far back and just hope for the best.
A Steed for the AM is a good alternative, but it also paints a huge target on that unit. A good Dwellers will cause them serious problems, and your opponent won't have to think too hard about what to kill if he wants to win the game. By keeping the AM separate from the Cav Bus, you force an opponent to potentially split their attention. Since you're not running High, it isn't like you're missing out on the Lore attribute to buff your Deathstar, so no worries on that front.
A Steed for the AM is a good alternative, but it also paints a huge target on that unit. A good Dwellers will cause them serious problems, and your opponent won't have to think too hard about what to kill if he wants to win the game. By keeping the AM separate from the Cav Bus, you force an opponent to potentially split their attention. Since you're not running High, it isn't like you're missing out on the Lore attribute to buff your Deathstar, so no worries on that front.
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Re: Mal's Blog - Cav Bus + Combined Arms Approach.
I'm with Tethlis on this one. I think that 10 archers is a decent bunker for the AM. Having him in the DPs as well as the rest is a bit of an eggs and baskets approach. Both myself and Curu tried something similar - I didn't report on it and Curu used a big DP bus with a Prince and 2 Nobles in it and we both found the same thing. It's too vulnerable to a dwellers or whatever and liable to be redirected out of the game.
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Re: Mal's Blog - High Elf Collection in Army List Form
For fun some friends came over for a big Warhammer Fantasy Apocalypse game today. We used basic Storm of Magic rules with a few tweeks (can only cast Cataclysm spells when on fulcrum) and made it an objective based game so the happenings on the field actually mattered. A central objective was worth 5 points, three objectives were in each deployment zone @ 2 points a piece and each fulcrum was worth 1 point. The way to score objectives was by simply having more victory points than your opponent.
I really wish I had remembered my ipad/camera especially to show off my fully painted and based high elf collection. I used almost every model (a few foot characters were kept aside incase my dragon riders were cannoned off). Here's the list I took:
Lords: 4926
General Armor of Silvered Steel, Dawnstone, Dawnstar Sword - 620
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dragon Armour, Shield, Potion of Fools Barded Steed – 265
Archmage, Level 4, Book of Hoeth, Crown of Command, Elven Steed - 330 (Lore of High Magic)
Archmage, Level 4, Power Stone - 240 (Lore of Shadow)
Archmage , Level 4, Book of Ashur, Sunfire Gem - 690 (Lore of Fire)
Loremaster of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwrym, Ogre Blade, Ring of Fury - 310
Loremaster of Hoeth, Channeling Staff - 245
Prince w. Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Star Dragon - 560
Prince w. Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Star Dragon - 560
Prince w. Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Star Dragon - 560
Prince w. Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Star Dragon - 560
Heroes: 952
Mage, Level 2 Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll - 145
Mage, Level 2 Lore of Light - 120
Mage, Level 2 Lore of Light - 120
Mage, Level 2 Lore of Light - 120
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Noble w. Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Griffon (ASF, Devestating Charge) - 283
Core: 1540
35x Spears w. FC, Gleaming Pennant - 345
12x Archers w. Musician - 130
14x Archers w. Musician - 150
12x Archers w. Musician - 130
12x Archers w. Musician - 130
5x Reavers w. Bows, Spears, Musician - 105
5x Reavers w. Bows, Spears, Musician - 105
5x Reavers w. Bows, Spears, Musician - 105
5x Reavers w. Spears, Musician - 90
10x Silver Helms w. FC, Shields - 260
Special: 2198
20x Phoenix Guard w. FC, Razor Standard - 375
20x White Lions w. FC - 290
21x White Lions w. FC, Banner of Swiftness - 318
9x Sword Masters - 107
5x Dragon Princes w. FC, Banner of Eternal Flame - 185
10x Dragon Princes w. FC, Ranger Standard - 370
7x Dragon Princes w. FC, Banner of the World Dragon, Star Lance - 313
Lion Chariot - 120
Lion Chariot -120
Rare: 1210
Frost heart Phoenix - 240
Frost Heart Phoenix - 240
Bolt Thrower - 70
Bolt Thrower - 70
6x Sisters - 84
6x Sisters - 84
10x Sisters - 140
13x Sisters - 182
Great Eagle - 50
Great Eagle - 50
Total: 10,850.
I really wish I had remembered my ipad/camera especially to show off my fully painted and based high elf collection. I used almost every model (a few foot characters were kept aside incase my dragon riders were cannoned off). Here's the list I took:
Lords: 4926
General Armor of Silvered Steel, Dawnstone, Dawnstar Sword - 620
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dragon Armour, Shield, Potion of Fools Barded Steed – 265
Archmage, Level 4, Book of Hoeth, Crown of Command, Elven Steed - 330 (Lore of High Magic)
Archmage, Level 4, Power Stone - 240 (Lore of Shadow)
Archmage , Level 4, Book of Ashur, Sunfire Gem - 690 (Lore of Fire)
Loremaster of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwrym, Ogre Blade, Ring of Fury - 310
Loremaster of Hoeth, Channeling Staff - 245
Prince w. Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Star Dragon - 560
Prince w. Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Star Dragon - 560
Prince w. Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Star Dragon - 560
Prince w. Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Star Dragon - 560
Heroes: 952
Mage, Level 2 Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll - 145
Mage, Level 2 Lore of Light - 120
Mage, Level 2 Lore of Light - 120
Mage, Level 2 Lore of Light - 120
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Noble w. Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Griffon (ASF, Devestating Charge) - 283
Core: 1540
35x Spears w. FC, Gleaming Pennant - 345
12x Archers w. Musician - 130
14x Archers w. Musician - 150
12x Archers w. Musician - 130
12x Archers w. Musician - 130
5x Reavers w. Bows, Spears, Musician - 105
5x Reavers w. Bows, Spears, Musician - 105
5x Reavers w. Bows, Spears, Musician - 105
5x Reavers w. Spears, Musician - 90
10x Silver Helms w. FC, Shields - 260
Special: 2198
20x Phoenix Guard w. FC, Razor Standard - 375
20x White Lions w. FC - 290
21x White Lions w. FC, Banner of Swiftness - 318
9x Sword Masters - 107
5x Dragon Princes w. FC, Banner of Eternal Flame - 185
10x Dragon Princes w. FC, Ranger Standard - 370
7x Dragon Princes w. FC, Banner of the World Dragon, Star Lance - 313
Lion Chariot - 120
Lion Chariot -120
Rare: 1210
Frost heart Phoenix - 240
Frost Heart Phoenix - 240
Bolt Thrower - 70
Bolt Thrower - 70
6x Sisters - 84
6x Sisters - 84
10x Sisters - 140
13x Sisters - 182
Great Eagle - 50
Great Eagle - 50
Total: 10,850.
Last edited by Malossar on Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Mal's Blog - Cav Bus + Combined Arms Approach.
12% core but at least you got a unit of Spearmen in there (no Silver Helms though, with your sig I would've thought you've had had a few!)
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Re: Mal's Blog - Cav Bus + Combined Arms Approach.
Oh I forgot to list my 10 silver helms w. FC! That's another 260 points.
It's apoc. We're not too concerned about Core requirements... we really just want to see some epic clashes (which generally don't involve spearmen hahaha)
It's apoc. We're not too concerned about Core requirements... we really just want to see some epic clashes (which generally don't involve spearmen hahaha)
Re: Mal's Blog - High Elf collection in army list form
Nice one. Bit light on Mystical Artefacts however? Windcatcher Prism would be sensational in a High Elves unit.
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Re: Mal's Blog - High Elf collection in army list form
Has the meta started to move away from the frost phoenix and toward massed shooting backed by shadow magic? I only ask because it seems that fewer and fewer armies are depending on the frost phoenix. The frost phoenix while an amazing monster, still suffers from poison and cannons while our shots can have a lasting impact over the course of the game. He/she who wins the chaff duel wins the game.
So this got me thinking. Thinking about the lists I have played since our new book was dropped and how it has altered over these 12 pages of my own little corner in Ulthuan. There's been some noticeable trends that have developed.
I really like fast moving armies and I really like close combat. I mean i might be a hardcore cavalry junky. In the previous book I was running lists based on a phoenix guard block with various forms of support and after playing a few smaller games I have grown to miss Asuryan's chosen poster boys and how much pure anvil they bring to the table.
This caused me to rethink the way I'm currently approaching the High Elf Army list. What do I really want from the army? Is it dragons or is it combat that gets my blood up? Or is it the combined arms approach? Monsters? Do I really need a frostheart?!
Which lead to several conclusions:
1. I want to continue running my dragon prince cav-hammer. Prince + BsB + BotWD this unit can tackle most of the hard units that can be brought to the table and still survive with enough punch intact to make it the to the final turns.
2. I want to bring back my wonderful phoenix guard. This will provide my second combat punch unit while also acting as my main anvil. No more spear blocks to absorb the shock. The army will maintain it's speed but also compensate with other support units.
3. So now that I'm limiting flyer support (no more dragon, no cannon ball catcher, maybe no frosthearts) I'll need an efficient way to clear chaff to allow the heavy hitters a clear path to their targets.
4. This list is meant to be an optimized High Elf list with clear purpose given to units.
Let's start with the prince:
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armor, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Classic build. Keep it easy. Let him grind combats and win challenges on his own with a slick 1+1+ and the 2++ against magic.
To round out my character selection I went with the following:
Archmage - Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth - 265 (Lore of Shadow)
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage - Lvl 2, Elven Steed, Crown of Command - 165 (Lore of Beasts)
I decided for the moment to keep the lvl 2 with lore of beasts. I know I know. Why? Shadow's an expensive Lore that requires loads of power dice. While that might be, well it is, true I felt that the back up caster could provide a nice utility role within the dragon princes. He keeps the unit stubborn which can allow them to act as an anvil in a pinch or when I fail that easy charge and am suddenly opened to all kinds of counter charging. He also has that low-priority style spell edge. Stop Mindrazor? Ok no problem I'll cast Wyssans.
I wanted to use Shadow Magic since I was probably not going to be able to afford the Frostheart if I wanted to keep the level 2 in the list. Honestly Shadow's probably the only Lore that makes a lick of sense. Aim for enfeebling to act as a spell version of the frost heart and hope for withering, pit and skillrazor.
Core:
I'm finally switching my core up to the following:
5x Reavers w. Bows
5x Reavers w. Bows
5x Reavers w. Bows
10x Silver Helms w. Musician, Banner
11x Archers w. Musician
More shots and a bunker for the shadow mage. This also his the target of 625/625 perfectly. I've thought about going back to the 4x Reavers and just swapping the big silver helm unit for 2x12 archers w. a banner but for now I thought this setup might be the better call. I contemplated for a long while about using to smaller silver helms units rather than the block of 10 but I've really enjoyed this block of medium cavalry for the potential it can bring to the table. If something terrible happens (like the princes getting dwellered off on turn 1) this unit can provide a nice back up bus for the characters.
Onto the combat blocks:
20x Phoenix Guard w. FC, Banner of Swiftness - 345
I know this should be the razor standard but damn its expensive and I'm hoping to at least pop wyssans on the unit. We'll see how the points play out at the end and whether its worth the extra 30.
7x Dragon Princes w. FC, Star Lance, Banner of the World Dragon - 313
Awesome unit. Super hard. Not to mention that this unit can solve my armor problem without any magical buffs thanks to the star lance and the giant blade.
Which leaves us at the Rare Section. Totaling up points here's where I'm at:
Lords: 541
Heroes: 329
Core: 625
Special: 658
Total: 2153.
Leaving 347 to play around with in the rare choice or bulking out other areas.
If I dropped the level 2 that'd net me 136 (I'd have to add another dragon prince to fill out the rear rank). meaning I'd have 483 to play with which is exactly 2 frost heart phoenixes.
But are frosthearts really needed? In a list like this I'm starting to lean toward no. The frostie is a huge target and isn't that hard to earn points from.
So if I kept the level 2 I could do something like:
2x RBTs
Frostheart Phoenix meaning I'd need to find 33points.
Or:
4x RBTs for 280 and use the last 60 points to add 4 more phoenix guard or the razor standard.
Or:
2x RBTs
10x Sisters and still have points to screw around with.
Finally, drop the lvl 2 and with the 483:
2x Rbts
Frostheart
7x Sisters.
What do you think Ulthuan? I'm hoping this sparks a bit of conversation. For reference here's the list so far:
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armor, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Archmage - Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth - 265 (Lore of Shadow)
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage - Lvl 2, Elven Steed, Crown of Command - 165 (Lore of Beasts)
5x Reavers w. Bows
5x Reavers w. Bows
5x Reavers w. Bows
10x Silver Helms w. Musician, Banner
11x Archers w. Musician
20x Phoenix Guard w. FC, Banner of Swiftness - 345
7x Dragon Princes w. FC, Star Lance, Banner of the World Dragon - 313
347 so far...
So this got me thinking. Thinking about the lists I have played since our new book was dropped and how it has altered over these 12 pages of my own little corner in Ulthuan. There's been some noticeable trends that have developed.
I really like fast moving armies and I really like close combat. I mean i might be a hardcore cavalry junky. In the previous book I was running lists based on a phoenix guard block with various forms of support and after playing a few smaller games I have grown to miss Asuryan's chosen poster boys and how much pure anvil they bring to the table.
This caused me to rethink the way I'm currently approaching the High Elf Army list. What do I really want from the army? Is it dragons or is it combat that gets my blood up? Or is it the combined arms approach? Monsters? Do I really need a frostheart?!
Which lead to several conclusions:
1. I want to continue running my dragon prince cav-hammer. Prince + BsB + BotWD this unit can tackle most of the hard units that can be brought to the table and still survive with enough punch intact to make it the to the final turns.
2. I want to bring back my wonderful phoenix guard. This will provide my second combat punch unit while also acting as my main anvil. No more spear blocks to absorb the shock. The army will maintain it's speed but also compensate with other support units.
3. So now that I'm limiting flyer support (no more dragon, no cannon ball catcher, maybe no frosthearts) I'll need an efficient way to clear chaff to allow the heavy hitters a clear path to their targets.
4. This list is meant to be an optimized High Elf list with clear purpose given to units.
Let's start with the prince:
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armor, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Classic build. Keep it easy. Let him grind combats and win challenges on his own with a slick 1+1+ and the 2++ against magic.
To round out my character selection I went with the following:
Archmage - Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth - 265 (Lore of Shadow)
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage - Lvl 2, Elven Steed, Crown of Command - 165 (Lore of Beasts)
I decided for the moment to keep the lvl 2 with lore of beasts. I know I know. Why? Shadow's an expensive Lore that requires loads of power dice. While that might be, well it is, true I felt that the back up caster could provide a nice utility role within the dragon princes. He keeps the unit stubborn which can allow them to act as an anvil in a pinch or when I fail that easy charge and am suddenly opened to all kinds of counter charging. He also has that low-priority style spell edge. Stop Mindrazor? Ok no problem I'll cast Wyssans.
I wanted to use Shadow Magic since I was probably not going to be able to afford the Frostheart if I wanted to keep the level 2 in the list. Honestly Shadow's probably the only Lore that makes a lick of sense. Aim for enfeebling to act as a spell version of the frost heart and hope for withering, pit and skillrazor.
Core:
I'm finally switching my core up to the following:
5x Reavers w. Bows
5x Reavers w. Bows
5x Reavers w. Bows
10x Silver Helms w. Musician, Banner
11x Archers w. Musician
More shots and a bunker for the shadow mage. This also his the target of 625/625 perfectly. I've thought about going back to the 4x Reavers and just swapping the big silver helm unit for 2x12 archers w. a banner but for now I thought this setup might be the better call. I contemplated for a long while about using to smaller silver helms units rather than the block of 10 but I've really enjoyed this block of medium cavalry for the potential it can bring to the table. If something terrible happens (like the princes getting dwellered off on turn 1) this unit can provide a nice back up bus for the characters.
Onto the combat blocks:
20x Phoenix Guard w. FC, Banner of Swiftness - 345
I know this should be the razor standard but damn its expensive and I'm hoping to at least pop wyssans on the unit. We'll see how the points play out at the end and whether its worth the extra 30.
7x Dragon Princes w. FC, Star Lance, Banner of the World Dragon - 313
Awesome unit. Super hard. Not to mention that this unit can solve my armor problem without any magical buffs thanks to the star lance and the giant blade.
Which leaves us at the Rare Section. Totaling up points here's where I'm at:
Lords: 541
Heroes: 329
Core: 625
Special: 658
Total: 2153.
Leaving 347 to play around with in the rare choice or bulking out other areas.
If I dropped the level 2 that'd net me 136 (I'd have to add another dragon prince to fill out the rear rank). meaning I'd have 483 to play with which is exactly 2 frost heart phoenixes.
But are frosthearts really needed? In a list like this I'm starting to lean toward no. The frostie is a huge target and isn't that hard to earn points from.
So if I kept the level 2 I could do something like:
2x RBTs
Frostheart Phoenix meaning I'd need to find 33points.
Or:
4x RBTs for 280 and use the last 60 points to add 4 more phoenix guard or the razor standard.
Or:
2x RBTs
10x Sisters and still have points to screw around with.
Finally, drop the lvl 2 and with the 483:
2x Rbts
Frostheart
7x Sisters.
What do you think Ulthuan? I'm hoping this sparks a bit of conversation. For reference here's the list so far:
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armor, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Archmage - Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth - 265 (Lore of Shadow)
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage - Lvl 2, Elven Steed, Crown of Command - 165 (Lore of Beasts)
5x Reavers w. Bows
5x Reavers w. Bows
5x Reavers w. Bows
10x Silver Helms w. Musician, Banner
11x Archers w. Musician
20x Phoenix Guard w. FC, Banner of Swiftness - 345
7x Dragon Princes w. FC, Star Lance, Banner of the World Dragon - 313
347 so far...
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Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
Here's some feedback I received from a club member, some really food analysis in there.
Thus the new list:
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Heavy Armor, Shield, Barded Steed – 271
Archmage - Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth - 275 (Lore of Shadow)
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage - Lvl 2, Elven Steed, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury - 180 (Lore of Beasts)
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
10x Silver Helms w. Full Command - 260
10x Archers w. Musician - 110
20x Phoenix Guard w. FC, Gleaming Pennant - 335
7x Dragon Princes w. FC, Star Lance, Banner of the World Dragon - 313
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
9x Sisters of Avelorn
2499.
Lords: 546/625
Heroes: 344/625
Core: 625/625
Special: 648/1250
Rare: 336/625
If you’re going away from the Frostheart, I like the RBTs and sisters. The DP bus is the only thing you have that can handle ethereals, so sisters help there. But then again, an ethereal would only be used to stop the PG or DP units, which will crumble them on combat res or char attacks. Probably better off with the Ring of Khaine on the AM, drop the sisters. Still need a dispel scroll to make you more or less immune to his magic phases. Damage spells bounce off your armor/ward, and debuffs don’t hurt you much. But I suppose you can’t squeeze it in with the Crown. I don’t know why you need the crown. Ld 10, reroll…I mean what’s the most you’re going to ever lose that combat by? 5 character wounds ave (prob higher) plus 6 from the DPs on the charge. You’ll never lose on the charge. Grinding you still get the char wounds + 2-3 static. Worst case scenario: Irongut horde in the flank. Make way, challenge with BSB to minimize his damage taken. 27 attacks on other character will prob kill him. Maybe BSB dies too with bad rolls (unlikely). So 5 wounds + banner/bsb/2 ranks/flank = 10 CR. You have 5 wounds + banner/bsb = 7 CR. So approximate worst case scenario is you lose by 3. I don’t see you ever getting caught out of position like that. All that to say, I think the CoC is unnecessary.
I vote Ring of Khaine, Dispel Scroll (no CoC), Razor standard, eagle, and 3 RBTs, cut the Pot of Fool. I think all that fits. Chaff dies/flees turn 1, hold the center with PG, DPs clean up support units or high armor, SH (Bret lance formation for squeezing between units vs 5 wide for charge arc?) support/chase fleeing units/warmachine hunt if reavers are redirecting and path is clear, then RBTs switch to armor/monster hunting. By turn 3-4 the field is yours, all of his support units are gone, DPs charge in for the kill/rescue PG
Thus the new list:
Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Heavy Armor, Shield, Barded Steed – 271
Archmage - Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth - 275 (Lore of Shadow)
BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage - Lvl 2, Elven Steed, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury - 180 (Lore of Beasts)
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
10x Silver Helms w. Full Command - 260
10x Archers w. Musician - 110
20x Phoenix Guard w. FC, Gleaming Pennant - 335
7x Dragon Princes w. FC, Star Lance, Banner of the World Dragon - 313
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
9x Sisters of Avelorn
2499.
Lords: 546/625
Heroes: 344/625
Core: 625/625
Special: 648/1250
Rare: 336/625
Last edited by Malossar on Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
Hi Mal,
I've been a strong hater of RBTs since 7th but I'm now looking to wriggle two (or three!) into my list. Why? Well, I think it would help me deal with a few threats which I find a bit tricky at the moment: terrorgheists, DPs (maybe, I'm not convinced they cut the mustard here), dark elves, reaver heavy high elves, fast monsters, chaff (although I'm quite solid on that front already).
I'm thinking about funding this by ditching my frostie. I'm very attached to my back-up mage and BSB (either of which would fund it) and my AM is already bare-bones. The only other source of points for them would be to raid my elite infantry pot (28 WL BotWD/23 Razor PG). This remains an option but I'm wary of dropping either by much as they lose their effectiveness quite quickly when numbers drop, though I might go this route instead. But with the frostie out I could keep both units at full, boost my sisters and get not just 2 but 3 RBTs (and for all I hate them, I think they probably become increasingly effective the more you use). See my thoughts here:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=52057
I think dark elves maybe do change the meta - I think without bolt throwers we might struggle to deal with them one-on-one (while of course they can bring them too, we do at least have better saves going (barring fast cav - grrr!)). Of course, vs dark elves the frostie excels too, so...
Beyond that I'm not sure. Frostie is a cannon target, but has a ward save and decent wounds, so stands a good chance of not being one-shotted and we can heal with High/Life. He is excellent, and not overly priced, its just he is expensive in absolute terms (think what else we could get for the points!).
I think one frostie and two are completely different styles. I've been following the various posts on AM on moon dragon with two frosties and cav support and I'd love to try it, though I don't think its my natural playstyle.
With just one I feel they fill a really varied support role, but while on paper they're just *the* best debuffers you could imagine, in game I've so rarely managed to pull that combo off because at 240 I need him elsewhere doing something independently. I'm hoping multiple RBTs might make a good alternative, alongside reaver BSB, sisters and some archer core (although I think it does change my army from quite offensive to more defensive).
I've been a strong hater of RBTs since 7th but I'm now looking to wriggle two (or three!) into my list. Why? Well, I think it would help me deal with a few threats which I find a bit tricky at the moment: terrorgheists, DPs (maybe, I'm not convinced they cut the mustard here), dark elves, reaver heavy high elves, fast monsters, chaff (although I'm quite solid on that front already).
I'm thinking about funding this by ditching my frostie. I'm very attached to my back-up mage and BSB (either of which would fund it) and my AM is already bare-bones. The only other source of points for them would be to raid my elite infantry pot (28 WL BotWD/23 Razor PG). This remains an option but I'm wary of dropping either by much as they lose their effectiveness quite quickly when numbers drop, though I might go this route instead. But with the frostie out I could keep both units at full, boost my sisters and get not just 2 but 3 RBTs (and for all I hate them, I think they probably become increasingly effective the more you use). See my thoughts here:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=52057
I think dark elves maybe do change the meta - I think without bolt throwers we might struggle to deal with them one-on-one (while of course they can bring them too, we do at least have better saves going (barring fast cav - grrr!)). Of course, vs dark elves the frostie excels too, so...
Beyond that I'm not sure. Frostie is a cannon target, but has a ward save and decent wounds, so stands a good chance of not being one-shotted and we can heal with High/Life. He is excellent, and not overly priced, its just he is expensive in absolute terms (think what else we could get for the points!).
I think one frostie and two are completely different styles. I've been following the various posts on AM on moon dragon with two frosties and cav support and I'd love to try it, though I don't think its my natural playstyle.
With just one I feel they fill a really varied support role, but while on paper they're just *the* best debuffers you could imagine, in game I've so rarely managed to pull that combo off because at 240 I need him elsewhere doing something independently. I'm hoping multiple RBTs might make a good alternative, alongside reaver BSB, sisters and some archer core (although I think it does change my army from quite offensive to more defensive).
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Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
RE: your latest lists...
Some options to consider for core choice changes (your current set up is probably fine, just some ideas to think about).
I've been underwhelmed by 8-10 silver helms without hero support, although I guess depending on who you're playing they do make a suitable alternative bus. But my army composition is very different to yours so it might be that they fulfill a radically different role for you for which they are better suited.
I'd consider breaking them up into 2x5. This is a very flexible super chaff clearing option, which can also add some nice CR with a flank or corner charge. Against some armies (skink clouds spring to mind as the obvious one) they're a much safer bet than just reavers. With two drops over the one and the extra flexibility you get with 2 units I think they're better. Also, i think they're perversely safer against ranged attrition (spells/cannons/small arms fire) because opponents need to target seperate units. A good searing doom can make a unit of 10 into a very different battlefield role. Now while it might wipe out a small unit, you've still got a second small unit able to do exactly what you'd planned for it from the start. They still present a(n unlikely) alternative bus option for your characters too in the right scenario (I read one BR of Seradain's where he did that to good effect).
I'd also consider a larger unit of archers. You may not need it with RBTs but I don't think 10 do a lot - 15-20 would be much more reliable at taking down their choice targets (e.g. manglers, chariots, unarmoured infantry). It might be overkill but in a lot of cases 1 wound left is as bad as all wounds still present. But the big reason is that with Shadow they are potentially a dangerous combat block, with either mindrazor or -D3T.
Some options to consider for core choice changes (your current set up is probably fine, just some ideas to think about).
I've been underwhelmed by 8-10 silver helms without hero support, although I guess depending on who you're playing they do make a suitable alternative bus. But my army composition is very different to yours so it might be that they fulfill a radically different role for you for which they are better suited.
I'd consider breaking them up into 2x5. This is a very flexible super chaff clearing option, which can also add some nice CR with a flank or corner charge. Against some armies (skink clouds spring to mind as the obvious one) they're a much safer bet than just reavers. With two drops over the one and the extra flexibility you get with 2 units I think they're better. Also, i think they're perversely safer against ranged attrition (spells/cannons/small arms fire) because opponents need to target seperate units. A good searing doom can make a unit of 10 into a very different battlefield role. Now while it might wipe out a small unit, you've still got a second small unit able to do exactly what you'd planned for it from the start. They still present a(n unlikely) alternative bus option for your characters too in the right scenario (I read one BR of Seradain's where he did that to good effect).
I'd also consider a larger unit of archers. You may not need it with RBTs but I don't think 10 do a lot - 15-20 would be much more reliable at taking down their choice targets (e.g. manglers, chariots, unarmoured infantry). It might be overkill but in a lot of cases 1 wound left is as bad as all wounds still present. But the big reason is that with Shadow they are potentially a dangerous combat block, with either mindrazor or -D3T.
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Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
Quick note. You under-costed your Archmage by ten points. Dropping a single Sister gives you those points, then you could buy the Ironcurse Icon for the remaining five points and bring yourself to exactly 2.5k.
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Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
I agree with Ferny here. Its the reason I've been running 3 x Reavers w/bows and two units of archers (24 and 12 strong) as my core.Ferny wrote:I've been underwhelmed by 8-10 silver helms without hero support, although I guess depending on who you're playing they do make a suitable alternative bus...
... I'd consider breaking them up into 2x5...
...I'd also consider a larger unit of archers.
Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
Are you not tempted to switch one of the three reaver units to a silver helm unit to help as an all-rounder list?John Rainbow wrote:I agree with Ferny here. Its the reason I've been running 3 x Reavers w/bows and two units of archers (24 and 12 strong) as my core.Ferny wrote:I've been underwhelmed by 8-10 silver helms without hero support, although I guess depending on who you're playing they do make a suitable alternative bus...
... I'd consider breaking them up into 2x5...
...I'd also consider a larger unit of archers.
Also, do you run shadow or something else?
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Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
I run shadow magic.Ferny wrote:Are you not tempted to switch one of the three reaver units to a silver helm unit to help as an all-rounder list?
Also, do you run shadow or something else?
I don't see what job the SHs would complete that the Reavers can't already perform. The Reavers do everything that a unit of 5 Silver Helms can do and they do more for besides in terms of redirection and maneuverability. The only advantage of the SHs as I see it is 2+ AS but when the unit is being used to redirect is this a real advantage? I don't think so. They cost more and achieve less in my eyes and in the role I would use them in.
Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
Fair enough. I find there are some match ups where I get very twitchy with my reavers. Skink spam is possibly the worst, but high elves with RBTs (and probably DEs but haven't fought them yet) too, wood elves probably (only fought them once) - I bet there are other reasonably shooty armies that I've not fought as well (tomb kings?)...against these foes I feel a lot more confident being able to throw in silver helms. I also find the lances make them more useful as flank protectors and rear/flank chargers, on top of their chaff clearance capabilities. I basically see them as reavers plus, but with notably worse manouverability. But with March 18", its still pretty good.John Rainbow wrote:I don't see what job the SHs would complete that the Reavers can't already perform. The Reavers do everything that a unit of 5 Silver Helms can do and they do more for besides in terms of redirection and maneuverability. The only advantage of the SHs as I see it is 2+ AS but when the unit is being used to redirect is this a real advantage? I don't think so. They cost more and achieve less in my eyes and in the role I would use them in.Ferny wrote:Are you not tempted to switch one of the three reaver units to a silver helm unit to help as an all-rounder list?
Horses for courses I guess - they serve different but overlapping roles. I like the 2+ backup but I can see the case for MOAR fast cav .
Sorry for hijacking thoughts on the frostie with helm/reaver comparisons Mal!
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Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
No worries gentlemen this is a great discussion! It is funny that I thought people would be more polarized over the lack of the frost phoenix and not the validity of helms/archers/reavers.
My original plan was to do 2x5 helms with banner, but I lack the second banner model and i have 2x8 units of helms that I use with vary different themes! I thought the one block of 10 would be handy as a big bunker, a mini combat block and an actual threat people are forced to deal with.
My original plan was to do 2x5 helms with banner, but I lack the second banner model and i have 2x8 units of helms that I use with vary different themes! I thought the one block of 10 would be handy as a big bunker, a mini combat block and an actual threat people are forced to deal with.
Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
Frosty certainly helps certain lists, and he's a great combo with fast moving hard hitting armies. But i've always struggled in taking just a single one in a more balanced army. He's just so vulnerable to cannons its painful to have him out on the board (i think i play too many people with double ironblaster/skillcannons), so i am forced to rush him into combats he can't necessarily win. His damage output against anything but infantry is pretty poor, and he eats up a large chunk of points that i could add bodies to my elite units with. I think he works much better in my Archmage on moondragon, Griffon BSB list than my Phoenix Guard, Dragon Princes and (since no frosty) swordsmasters list.
I'd love to hear how your current list goes. Great to see the prince on the steed again.
I'd love to hear how your current list goes. Great to see the prince on the steed again.
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Re: Mal's Blog - List Building revisited --- No Frosty?
Tournament on Saturday! I haven't gotten to play my high elves much since we started the escalation league... suffice it to say that I'm pretty excited for this weekend.