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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:13 am 
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Nevar wrote:
It seems like for model construction purposes a Lance and Shield is a safe bet for the Prince, regardless of whether you are using a mundane lance or the Star Lace.


Or, if you were to go that way, your ogre blade or whatever could be lance-formed as well (the magic being it works even when not charging :mrgreen: )

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:54 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
What builds do you consider contending this setup and why?


Well Curu, I am pretty new to Ulthuan and Warhammer Fantasy, so I have been relying on the massed wisdom of Ulthuan.net to make list construction decisions. Granted I do take advice with some salt because I have in the past found internet Theory-hammer-masters are not as amazing as they think. I used the MSU tactics from another tactic thread here to win all of my fantasy games to date, and most of them have been just crushing victories. However those games were at a 1500 pt level where my Swordmasters literally destroyed the entire enemy army on their own with a Loremaster covering me magically.

At 2500 pts I am more worried about army composition since my opponents will be able to field a wider variety of threats, so I am constructing my own list to include more options as well.

No matter how I twist it though, I always go back to the Star Dragon as my center piece and "Deal with this!" model to draw enemy attention and serve as a heavy hitter. The way I see it, the Dragon can respond to other big threats like monsters and the like freeing up my infantry and other units to deal with their equivalents in the enemy line. So I agree that the Prince is pretty much a delivery system, however I also feel like his ASF hits can make a huge difference in a clash between larger and angrier opponents like other dragons and monsters.

To answer the question, I can only debate between the weapon selection. Right now I am saving points by using a mundane lance. This gives me that added punch I feel he needs to give to that first round of combat with the opposing monster, but doesn't cost me a leg for it. However, the extra strength in the Star Lance could heavily improve that initial 'alpha strike' if you will, but I will have to dedicate even -more- points to him. Finally, the Ogre Blade as pointed out is like a Star Lance, except works in following combats. On top of that the Ogre Blade can be used even if I receive a charge, rare as that might be.

The defensive items you have listed are pretty much what I came up with as well, but the debate with weapons and point sinking is really where I am hung up. Usually I say "Go big or go home!" but I don't want to skimp on my supporting units and their combat abilities, as that would make my Dragon the total lynch pin in my army.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Have y considered adding a lion pelt on your prince in your first build? And then u can switch out enchanted shield with charmed shield. U would then have 1+ save against shooting and be able to possibly eat 2 cannon shots. I'm not a very big dragon build guy, but u could do either either way. In your first build your list has 4 points to spare and u took heavy armour so lion pelt is able to fit in.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:45 am 
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@Ferny - indeed modelling doesn't have to match up 100%, especially when considering magic items.

@Nevar - good to hear you're finding this site rewarding :) In the last edition of our book I used to run a Star Dragon lord sporting S6 with ASF, 2+ re-rollable armour save and 4+ ward. Now, even this guy died when somebody applied some pressure to him. Indeed, his attacks did help the damage output as S6 ASF6 is nothing to scoff at. However I found that as the meta grew, he became less and less powerful. Fast forward to today, regardless of how we tool our Prince we cannot even get close to this. At best we're looking at 2+/4++ and without the re-roll it's just a whole different game. Furthermore, with this kit, we simply don't have points for a reasonable offense. Probably a lance, but when's one round of S6 going to make that much of a difference? Assuming you are attacking T4, 4+ save infantry (ideal for the prince with this setup) your dragon will deal 3.5W and another 3 from thunderstomp. The Prince will likely deal 2.5. It's a 33% damage increase, roughly speaking. For one round of combat, not really that interesting. The problem is that T4, 4+ isn't generally what we fear. What we fear is big nasties, as you pointed out. Against massed ranks of infantry, the prince will die eventually regardless. Whether he takes down 2 or 4 before he dies is irrelevant as long as the Dragon is as powerful as it is. With the Star Lance, on the other hand, you deal massive amounts of damage to anything when you charge. Comparing against 1+ MC, one of the most normal configurations out there, the Star Lance is twice as good as S6. Furthermore a lot of heroes sport re-rollable armour saves and there are plenty of things T5-T7 in the game where the S7 truly shines. I don't see the ogre blade as being anywhere close to the Star Lance in terms of damage output relative to this setup, besides if your prince actually does hurt then your opponent is just going to kill him.

As for dedicating more points or not, you've already invested 140 in bringing him. From there on up to his max. limit we're only talking about investing 70 more, which is the same as an RBT. In a nutshell then, my Prince setup grants me a 2+ armour save, 2+ ward vs first wound and the Star Lance for the cost of an RBT. I consider this a very good tradeoff, as 70 points really isn't that much. One could argue that the Star Lance is a waste and that survivability is what you're really getting here (2+ being awesome against small-arms fire), but for 30 points it really is a steal considering how much more powerful it makes your Prince. I don't think I have ever seen a list where I've thought that somebody should rather have invested their 30 points for a dragon-riding Star Lance in something else.

@Cealyne - dropping ES drops my armour save to 3+. Dropping heavy armour to afford lion pelt drops it to 4+, and only 2+ vs shooting. I find the charmed shield mostly ineffective in open lists environments, I would rather have the 2+ to make him somewhat safe from rank'n'file crap like goblins, skaven etc as well as small-arms fire. Lion pelt is more expensive than the ES so I consider it extremely hard to fit in below 3k points games.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:02 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
High Elves 2400 points

Star Dragon, Prince with: Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy armour = 596
High Mage lvl 2 on horsie with scroll 155
High Mage lvl 2 on horsie with power stone, furyring 175
Noble BSB with: Dragon Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, barded steed 172

Characters = 1098

13 Helms, fc shields = 329

5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95

Core = 614

28 WL, FC BOTWD = 444
Frostheart = 240

Special & rare = 684

Army Total = 2396


Small list change. With taking away the Banner from the cavalry, I'm suddenly left with a unit that is very afraid of death and metal magic. Because of this, I have been looking at ways to increase the unit's magic resistance. The BRB MR(1) and MR(2) items are the ones I've been looking at. The first one costs 15 points, the latter 30. To free up 15, I lose a Silver Helm and upgrade one Reaver to be a champion. To free up 30, I need to ditch a WL as well. Furthermore, to include the MR(2) item I need to bring the scroll over to the fury ring mage. Given that I've decided to go for High Magic, the Shield should definitely help me out here. However, I can't base my strategy around getting off multiple casts all the time. As such, the more protection, the better. This presents an interesting challenge: if I have MR(2) and somehow get off 3 spells, what is my resulting ward save against spells? Shield says it cannot boost a ward save beyond 3++, but the way I see it one could argue that the Shield provides a base ward save and then the MR is applied on top of that. Has this occured to you? Has it been FAQ'd? How would you play it?

The updated list:

High Elves 2400 points

Star Dragon, Prince with: Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy armour = 596
High Mage lvl 2 on horsie with scroll, furyring 180
High Mage lvl 2 on horsie with power stone, obsidian amulet 180
Noble BSB with: Dragon Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, barded steed 172

Characters = 1128

12 Helms, fc shields = 306

5 Reavers, bows & muso, champ = 105
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95

Core = 601

27 WL, FC BOTWD = 431
Frostheart = 240

Special & rare = 671

Army Total = 2400

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:20 pm 
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Shield boosts your non existent ward save to 6++ then you add your magic res(1) for 5++ against magic.

Same thing for PG boost to 3++ and then add your magic res(1) for 2++ against magic.

I hope that makes sense to you.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:51 pm 
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Thanks for your input Struthy, I kinda agree with what you say but would really like to see a FAQ or at least TO ruling on this :)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:25 pm 
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.::. Battle Report: 2400 ETC vs Dwarfs .::.

High Elves 2400 points

Star Dragon, Prince with: Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy armour = 596
High Mage lvl 2 on horsie with scroll, furyring 180
High Mage lvl 2 on horsie with power stone, obsidian amulet 180
Noble BSB with: Dragon Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, barded steed 172

Characters = 1128

12 Helms, fc shields = 306

5 Reavers, bows & muso, champ = 105
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95

Core = 601

27 WL, FC BOTWD = 431
Frostheart = 240

Special & rare = 671

Army Total = 2400

Dwarfs:

Dwarf lord. 1+ reroll, immune to killing blow, 2++ fire, GW
Runelord. Anvil, Balance, 2+ save.
BSB. 1+ reroll, challange, flaming attacks
2x Dragon Slayers
Master Engineer
30x Longbeards, GW, FC, Ancestor og Determination
10x Quarreler Rangers, GW, champ, muso
27 Hammers, FC.
2x5 Miners
Cannon reroll misfire
GT str 5 reroll scatter
GT str 4 reroll scatter fire.

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

Old matchup, old opponent. What`s new? Lions are back in the game :) Eager to try them out. The bad part about going up vs Dwarfs is not being able to test my magic lore choice much.

Deployment was fairly straight-forward, he took a corner and I deployed opposite. I managed to hide both the Frostheart and the Star Dragon. I got lucky and grabbed first turn.

// HE T1 //

Full speed ahead. Magic was 2+1, thus I avoided losing the 5++ on the Frosty at least, though obviously with 2 v 6 dice I couldn`t do anything. I managed to hide both flyers behind a wall, thus safe from his cannon. I was a little cautious with my cavalry as I wanted to see his moves first and figured my SD could take a couple of rounds alone before needing assistance.

Image

// DW T1 //

Not much in terms of movement. He tried both GTs at the Frostheart but despite having re-rolls to hit, he missed both (and no scatters landed on the SD). The Cannon took a helm or two. Anvil targeted Frosty, now happily M2.

Image

// HE T2 //

He used banner of siren song to get my SD into Hammerers with Lord and BSB. I happily obliged and declared a charge with the Frosty as well, with its M2 I figured a failed swiftstride charge could hardly be worse than marching 4". I didn`t make the required 11+ so the Dragon went at it alone. I decided to place it close to his Lord, which meant exposing its flank to the Longbeards. With the Anvil around, I figured I probably wouldn`t get a whole lot out of placing it otherwise regardless and this would leave a juicy portion for my Lions to smack into.

Magic saw me declare Power Stone in a miserable snake eyes phase but I failed to get IF and he dispelled, though only barely!

Combat saw the Prince deal 2W to his Lord with the Star Lance and I mistakenly tried to take him down with 4 attacks from the SD (the last 2 for the BSB). I did no wounds whatsoever with its mundane attacks, but fire breath took down 3 Hammerers with thunderstomp claiming 5 more. I won, he stood.

Image

// DW T2 //

Longbears flanked the SD. The artillery combined took only 3W off the Frostheart. Miners came on and blocked Lions (my bad for not realizing this could delay them severely). Combat saw the Star Dragon receive an insane amount of hits and I think something like 4 or 5 wounds got through its T7, but I rolled an amazing three 6`s for my armour save and Strange could but shake his head as the beast slaughtered Hammerers (though again I tried to get past his Lord`s 1+ re-rollable with 4 attacks and failed). I can`t remember who lost combat but with stubborn LD10 on both sides it didn`t matter.

Image

// HE T3 //

Frostheart into flank, Helmbus into flank (both engaged Longbeards). Lions into chaff. Magic nothing, as per usual. Combat: I slaughtered a great deal of Longbeards and Hammerers and saved yet another wound or two on the SD, thus it was still around 3-4 wounds left and the Prince hadn`t taken a scratch. I won combat massively. He held, but didn`t have a lot of troops left.

Image

DW T3: Miners delay my Lions yet again. Regardless, I have enough power to wipe him out completely in the central combat and it`s my T4 next. He concedes and with him only having killed reavers and mages, it`s a clear 20-0 victory to the High Elves!

// Analysis //

Getting first turn was lucky, but with having both flyers in hiding it`s not the worst spot to be in vs Dwarfs. With that being said, having anvil target Frosty T1 prior to me even moving woulda been bad. Furthermore, this would`ve allowed him to target the Dragon in his second turn, possibly giving him an extra attempt at shooting it.

The Lions moving so close to the edge was a huge mistake. They never reached meaningful combat in this game, a pity really but solely my tactical error because, truth be told, Strange`s miner-luck has been terrible previously and he`s never managed to speedbump me like this. Lesson learned (famous last words!).

Magic against Dwarfs is just so boring. This game I didn`t get a single spell through.

Chaff war this game was won by Dwarfs. 2 Slayers and 10 Rangers kept my Reavers at bay and he eventually killed them all off, too. Regardless, I don`t see a better use for them here, if they break through they can make a tremendous difference as I`ve experienced previously.

The Dwarf Lord`s setup is somewhat outdated. We`ve discussed it in-depth and Strange will probably change it to quite a bit more killy (hint: T5+ adversaries-killy). Interesting, and about time given the meta!

T7 is amazing. Truly amazing. That being said, lots of S6 attacks is hurtful. I made a mistake targeting the Dwarf Lord with 4 attacks for 2 consecutive combat rounds. His wounds, while expensive, do not pose a greater threat to me than Hammerers` wounds. By targeting Hammerers instead, not only do I hit on 3`s but they don`t get an annoying 5+ re-rollable. Even with only 1W left, I believe this is a risk that I simply don`t need to take. Better to just kill off the stubborn unit!

I think that`s about it for now, feel free to leave a comment, which I would appreciate of course :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:47 am 
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hi curu, nice win, first turn is always massive against dwarfs.

just a quick question, I noticed your opponents cannon was placed directly behind his large unit of hammerers, do you guys play TLOS?










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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:20 pm 
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That was quick. Nice report :-).

I played a game with dragon too, and found centrally placed walls extremely useful.


I'm not impressed by GTs. They miss monsters 5/9 of the time even with reroll. They murder horde infantry, but then yours are immune.
Dwarfs suffer hard from thunderstomp and T7.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:28 am 
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@sparkytrypod - indeed! It's a pity that the fraction is so dependent on that dice roll, I hope it gets mitigated somewhat in the next book. We play SLOS :)

@rusty - actually a 5+ re-roll is 5/9 to succeed. Furthermore, given that the base is 4" long, there is a little chance that it still might end up under the hole given a scatter. Roughly half the scatters off 2" will still hit the base, so in total a GT has ~60% to hit. Terrible luck to miss both in a single turn, roughly the same chance as not managing a 2+ roll actually. As for T7, I'm eager to see what Strange's new lord setup will mean for this matchup ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Nice game although I think getting the first turn helped you a lot! In my experience going 2nd against Dwarves is bad for the Dragon list due to the additional fire you have to weather. Either way, I would have expected the Dwarves to put more wounds on the dragon with both shooting and the GW in CC.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Pardon my ignorance, but what does SLOS stand for/mean?!

is it cavalry see over infantry etc etc?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:21 pm 
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sparkytrypod wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but what does SLOS stand for/mean?!

is it cavalry see over infantry etc etc?

I believe Curu plays using the ETC rules for this which are something like this...

Quote:
5. Line of Sight

Next "Simple LoS" will be used:

Terrain pieces are divided into ones that:
- Block LoS: Hills, Buildings and impassable terrain.
- Don't block LoS: all other terrain.

Unit is considered to be in hard cover when:
- majority of unit's footprint is obscured from shooter's Line of Sight by an interfering unit or a LoS blocking terrain, as described on page 41 BRB
- unit is garrisoning a Building, as described on page 127 BRB
- unit is defending an obstacle, as described on page 122 BRB
- majority of unit's footprint is in Ruins

Unit is considered to be in soft cover when:
- your models shoot through or into woods, as described on page 119 BRB

Models shooting from hills or buildings don't get the hard cover penalty for shooting through interfering units, unless interfering unit is also on hill.

Units with majority of its footprint on hill do not receive hard cover for being shot at through interfering units, unless interfering unit is also on hill.

Large Targets can't claim cover for obstacles, ruins and interfering units.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:42 pm 
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Do you ever get to play at 2500? I thought a fun dragon lord would be:

Heavy Armor, Lion Vloak, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, Irin Curse Icon, Giant Blade.

Combined he and the dragon can dish out 10 Str 7 attacks! He can also plink the first two cannon balls...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:09 pm 
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@John Rainbow - 2nd turn indeed does hurt, but in this game both flyers were hidden behind a hill so it probably wouldn`t have been a disaster regardless. He was unlucky in CC, no doubt.

@sparkytrypod - John`s quote is correct :)

@Malossar Dragonborne - I almost never play it. 2400 seems to be the new standard, regardless of comp system. As for the layout, I`m very hesitant to go for only 3+ vs small-arms fire and in melee. It makes it too easy to kill him. If I had more points I would probably give him Dragonhelm instead of EA for fireward and Ironcurse Icon or Potion of Foolhardiness. I feel that regardless of what you do, he ends up being squishy. As such, may as well try and maximize his utility with the Star Lance.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:25 pm 
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He has a 1+ against small arms fire from the lion cloak ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Just a quick question : Didn't the dwarf lord issue challenge your dragon lord at close combat?
BotWD surely would've helped the dragon stay in combat but also could have prevented dragon contribute to combat
by tying up in challenge.

Other than that I've been looking for lists of players using star dragon lord at 2.4~2.5k level including you,
since I also wanted to use star dragon list out of boredom.
(Up to now I've been using typical L4 mage list with WL block, silver helms, frost phoenix and other supporting elements)

However, the setup of star dragon lord indeed is tricky one.
I wanted to give him at least
1) 2+ ward versus fire(to block those pesky flaming attacks including skull cannon)
2) A mean to safely block one cannonball e.g. charmed shield, golden crown of atrazar
3) Ward save of 5+ or better
To give all these elements however 2500pts was insufficient, ending up lacking at least one of the above.
How did you manage to solve such dilemma?

Also, how do you manage to play game in your favour when the star dragon is killed before it gets to engage in close combat?
I play frquently against empire, and at 2.5k I face 3 cannons at least. Sometimes I face one great cannon and two steam tanks.
Against such list, how would you react when say, the dragon lord is removed by cannons at turn 1?

P.S. Below is my initial list using star dragon lord

Lord : 610pts
Prince(Heavy Armour, Shield, Lion Cloak, Star Dragon, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster's Shard)

Heroes : 337pts
Noble(Battle Standard Bearer, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Elven Steed - Ithilmar Barding, Dragonhelm, Opal Amulet, Potion of Strength)
Mage(Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring of Ruin) - Lore of Heavens

Core : 632pts
10 Archers(Musician)
9 Silver Helms(Shields, Full Command)
5 Silver Helms(Shields)
5 Ellyrian Reavers(Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Special : 379pts
23 White Lions of Chrace(Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon)

Rare : 542pts
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
Frostheart Phoenix
8 Sisters of Avelorn

2,500pts


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:14 pm 
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@Malossar Dragonborne - good point :)

@Sinsigel - I can`t remember, I don`t think the Dragon was ever in a challenge (perhaps once). This doesn`t prevent it from attacking the lord, only the Hammerers. In my opinion the best thing to do here is to let the unit champion take the charge challenge as this negates the effect of the Star Lance - a frequent problem for this lord setup if you cannot combo-charge anything with him.

My question for your demands for a Star Dragon lord is simply: why? What is the reasoning behind your item wishes?

If the Star Dragon dies before it hits combat, then usually the game is over. Noteworthy exceptions include when the other elements are close enough and intact enough to wreak havoc on their own (not impossible with the current WL-block version of the list) and magic turning the tides, but in general if the Dragon dies prior to even hitting combat it`s pretty much impossible to win against good opponents. If the Lord dies it doesn`t make much of a difference to its hitting/grinding power to be honest, the worst part is losing LD10.

As for facing 3 cannons it`s a horrible matchup. The best bet here is to use terrain to your advantage. If you play TLOS on planet bowling ball then the odds are stacked against you. The reason why I can take this lord to the field is because I play in terrain-heavy environments with SLOS, which really does make a huge difference.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:29 pm 
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Hi Curu,

Im thinking about running a dragonlord. I need some help with my list.

I just posted a thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=61081

But ive seen your lord build and I think I agree with the theory so Im going to change that round.

I still have a few points to spend and would like your advice.

Great job so far. Keep it up!

Henry


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:02 pm 
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So yeah, a couple of months since last time yet again. It`s been too sporadic lately, unfortunately. I`m having a game again tomorrow and I`m trying something quite different (for me):

Prince on barded steed, giant blade, dawnstone, dragonhelm, shield, heavy armour= 271
Loremaster of Hoeth, Book of Hoeth, Obsidian Amulet = 315
Lords = 586
BSB on barded steed, star lance, enchanted shield, crown, potion of foolhardiness, dragon armour = 170
Mage, scroll, ring of fury = 170
Heroes = 340

5 Reavers, muso, bows = 95
5 Reavers, muso, bows = 95
10 Silver Helms, armour, fc = 260
14 Archers, muso = 150
Core = 600

25 PG, FC, Razor = 450
4 RBT = 280
5 Sisters = 70
5 Sisters = 70
Special & rare = 870

Total = 2394

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:58 am 
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Why the amulet on the Loremaster? Surely the Talisman of Preservation if far better.

Otherwise looks solid. Really nasty shooting phase. Is the Mage taking lore of shadow? High magic? Or heavens? All seem like a solid bet.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:47 am 
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To allow the other characters protection if needed :) the mage is taking beasts, double wyssans is brutal and savage beasts, pelt, spear and curse all go very well with the list as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:02 am 
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I take it you wont put the LM in the PG then? He is pretty much dead if he gets into combat with that build. Don't you feel that you are wasting points by not using him as a combat character?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:39 am 
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If you think a Loremaster is a combat character, think again. There is no way he'll ever be that. At best, he's a mage that`s hard to kill. I imagine he'll hang with PG in the start and switch to Archers when combat starts to happen.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:53 pm 
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Battle report! First game in a while, and a first game in many ways: first without BOTWD since new book came out, first with the Loremaster, first with PG in new book, first against the new Dwarfs... Anyways, I'll make it short since I don`t have a lot of time and the lessons here are pretty easy to remember.

Lists:

HE:
Prince on barded steed, giant blade, dawnstone, dragonhelm, shield, heavy armour= 271
Loremaster of Hoeth, Book of Hoeth, Obsidian Amulet = 315
Lords = 586
BSB on barded steed, star lance, enchanted shield, crown, potion of foolhardiness, dragon armour = 170
Mage, scroll, ring of fury = 170
Heroes = 340

5 Reavers, muso, bows = 95
5 Reavers, muso, bows = 95
10 Silver Helms, armour, fc = 260
14 Archers, muso = 150
Core = 600

25 PG, FC, Razor = 450
4 RBT = 280
5 Sisters = 70
5 Sisters = 70
Special & rare = 870

Total = 2394

DW:
Thane S6 1+ save (general)
Runesmith superscroll
Thane BSB with wardstuff (4++) and 5++ banner
Thane (redirector duty)

30 Longbeards, stubborn, GW, FC
12 Quarrellers, shields (no GW)
30 Hammerers, FC
12 Irondrakes, muso

Copter, vanguard
Copter

Deployment:
Image

Spells gave me Curse of Anraheir and Wyssan`s. He won the vanguard roll-off and marched his copter up (shown above). He also won roll-off for first turn and marched the copter up to where nothing in my army could see it. His cannon took out an RBT and it was my T1. I had to react to his copter being a real pain, so I reformed and backed the PG to give the Loremaster front arc to it, while the Helms took off towards the Irondrakes. Despite my best efforts, the copter didn`t go down. The other copter suffered a couple of wounds and I realized a huge mistake I had made during the shooting phase: the Sisters have flaming arrows, so placing them opposite the Irondrakes was just terrible.

Image

I had got off Iceshard on the copter so it couldn`t flame me. I proceeded to kill it off but a poor positioning of the Helms allowed the Cannon a flank shot which turned out so terrible that I no longer had LoS. This created a very tough spot for me so I tried to charge the Irondrakes, however I fell short. The Sisters started marching up the East side as I intended to use them as blockers if I ever got my cavalry in combat. I managed to keep casting Iceshard on his Cannon, which prevented it from shooting my LoS-less Prince (who eventually made it into the Irondrakes). As my PG marched up towards his lines, his flame cannon landed a perfect shot on them which effectively rendered them in-effective for any serious activity. The situation around this point was as follows:

Image

The Prince killed the Drakes and the Sisters blocked the Longbeards from interfering. The Reavers on the West and the RBTs + magic managed to kill off the remaining artillery. Nothing major happened and overall very few points were lost as he didn`t have the speed to engage and I didn`t want to. In the end I had lost 1 unit of reavers, half helms, 1 rbt, 1 unit of sisters. He had lost 3 WMs, Irondrakes and 2 copters. This put me just shy of 500 points ahead, just enough for a 13-7 win to the High Elves :)

Major mistakes: careless angles relative to the Copter in deployment. Shouldn`t happen. Planning on Sisters to beat Drakes when they have flaming arrows - no comment. Giving him a flank shot at Helms. His major mistake was a reform performed by the Longbeards early on, which allowed my Prince to charge out without being counter-charged. He also might`ve been better off fleeing the charge entirely, but his Cannon failed the Iceshard roll regardless so the Prince on his lonesome wouldn`t have mattered that much.

However, the game also showed that the list doesn`t exactly play the way I would`ve wanted it to. PG + Helms simply doesn`t have the synergy I had expected. I need to re-think army composition and overall goal. I was however, very impressed by the Loremaster: although not as evident in my report he got a shitload of spells through and completely dominated the game.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:17 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Battle report! First game in a while, and a first game in many ways: first without BOTWD since new book came out, first with the Loremaster, first with PG in new book, first against the new Dwarfs... Anyways, I'll make it short since I don`t have a lot of time and the lessons here are pretty easy to remember.

However, the game also showed that the list doesn`t exactly play the way I would`ve wanted it to. PG + Helms simply doesn`t have the synergy I had expected. I need to re-think army composition and overall goal. I was however, very impressed by the Loremaster: although not as evident in my report he got a shitload of spells through and completely dominated the game.


Nice one on trying something (or rather, so many things) new, I've been experimenting with lists for about 6 months now and am finding it really refreshing.

In what way were you hoping the PG and helms would synergise, and in what way did they not do so? I don't see any reason why they shouldn't work well together. Your list looks perfectly solid to my eyes :)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:12 pm 
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Good question, Ferny! To me, it felt like the PG needed a secondary infantry unit to work in tandem with. As Ptolemy and Tethlis, among others, have played for so long, the Lion block seems a natural edition. In this game I couldn`t start sending units across the field and hope for the best. Well, I could`ve but I would`ve lost. When I did commit the PG, they were quickly taken apart. Granted, this is rather rare and the Flame Cannon is an extremely dangerous war machine, but even if they had gotten there in one piece, they were carrying two fragile characters and could not have handled Hammerers and Longbeards alone. The Cavalry, on the other hand, needs stronger support than PG to shine, in my opinion. Engaging these blocks was basically impossible for me this game. It`s all a mixture of lack of tools, but it boils down to a lack of synergy. I mean, 30 naked Hammerers is far from a deathstar and still I couldn`t do anything about them. In the end I did win, of course, but imagine that he would`ve had vanguard on Hammerers, Irondrakes and Longbeards! I would`ve been in big trouble.

The way I see it, the Book of Hoeth is an amazing item that excels when you go for trickle magic. This is usually done either by a High Archmage, who could sit with a medium-sized unit of Swordmasters (see Seredain`s recent discussion on the topic) or even with PG (see the US masters thread) for 3++, or with a Loremaster. The Loremaster is a funny choice, because he can spam so many similar spells: there`s always a threat and there`s always a boost. Take the Hammerers for example: if I had gotten the PG into that fight, I would be able to manipulate combat as follows with the Loremaster alone:
- Miasma: I hit on 3s and worst case, he hits me back at 5s.
- Iceshard blizzard: -1LD, -1 to hit.
- Wyssan`s Wildform: I wound on 3s.

Most magic phases, he can only stop one. Whichever 2 go through, they`ll have a combined, devastating effect. Also, when not in combat his capabilities are arguably even better: Fireball, Shem`s, Spirit Leech and Searing Doom are wonderful offensively, while miasma and iceshard are still highly useful!

My initial thought that the L2 beasts was a necessary addition I now believe to be wrong. While dual Wyssan`s is nice, I hardly think it`s a necessity. Now I'm looking more at Heaven`s to be honest, because the rest of the lore is so strong and dual Iceshard is even better. However, thinking a little further, I know that the Helmbuss needs to go, which also tempts me losing all cav from core entirely. This would favour a bigger unit of Archers, which would favour High Magic... I don`t think that a Loremaster and an Archmage in the same army is a good idea, so I`m kinda unsure of how I want to develop this. The US Master winning list really has inspired me, and I believe there are other, similar concepts that could work well out there, for example a unit of Swordmasters led by an Anointed with an L4 High Magic boss giving them wards. I`ll have to play around a little and see what I can come up with :)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:34 am 
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Have you thought about changing Beasts on the Level 2 too High, swapping the Loremaster's Obsidian Amulet for the Talisman of Preservation/Shield of the Merwyrm putting them both in with the Phoenix Guard? You'd end up with the potential for 3++ on the Loremaster and Phoenix Guard until the Lv 2 dies, which would make the approach to combat and the first 1-2 rounds much safer.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:49 am 
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Yes, I have. The problem is that the mage dies too easily so it`ll last for one round at best.

The fundamental problem here is as follows: with investing 900+ points in characters and wanting 4 RBT + sisters, there simply aren`t enough points left to have more than one solid special block. This essentially means that the Cav Prince is the only viable option for running a secondary combat block alongside a Loremaster`s PG block. Alternatively, one must look to other configurations: one alternative is my vanilla combined-arms list on P1, which features an SM-block with a High Magic archmage. This is a list that`s very similar to what Seredain currently runs (with the exception of the Phoenix), but it kind of defeats the purpose of a Loremaster (which I believe adds a lot of value to our offensive capabilities). Anyway, let`s review our options in a shooty-heavy approach:
- Swordstar. Led by an Anointed and toting the BOTWD with a L4 High Archmage, this unit can be quite interesting. However, without the Loremaster the army overall lacks offensive power.
- PG-star. See the US masters thread.
- Lionstar. Can also be led by an Anointed, same as above.
- A little less shooting and 2 combat units, PG + WL being the most popular. These won`t be full-sized as there are not enough points, but people seem to be getting away with 20ish in each.
- Cavprince
- Star Dragon
- Coven of Light (Loremaster + AM + mage)

There are possibly a few more options, but these are the ones I`ll consider for now. Looking at the 2-unit approach, it looks to be the most promising given my findings from yesterday's game. I'm not writing off cavprince + loremaster entirely just yet, but let's just look at a draft with 2 combat units:

Anointed, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield = 300
Loremaster, Book of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwyrm = 300
Mage l2 Heavens, scroll = 145
BSB Potion of Strength, Reaver Bow, Dragon Armour = 155
Characters = 900

Core = 600 (reavers & Archers)

19 PG, FC and Razor Standard = 360
20 WL, FC and BOTWD = 340

Special = 700

3 RBT = 210
5 Sisters = 70

Rare = 280

Total: 2480

Still a bit over. Admittedly the Anointed earts into the points by quite a lot, but barring high magic support I don`t think a foot prince could work as a serious combat character. Ditching the anointed entirely would of course allow me to boost the units a bit and bring back more shooting also, but this just feels a little light on the combat side of things. I could of course mount the BSB and have a small unit of Silver Helms available, giving the army some much needed mobility as well. Lets take a look:

Loremaster, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
BSB on barded steed, dragon armour, enchanted shield, star lance, golden crown of atrazar, potion of foolhardiness = 170
Mage L2 Heavens, scroll = 145
Characters = 645

Core = 600 (8 Helms, some reavers, some archers)

20 PG, FC, Razor Standard = 375
21 WL, FC, BOTWD = 353

Special = 728

4 RBT = 280
2x5 Sisters = 140

Rare = 420

Total = 2393

I think this is starting to look like something I could like and I might field this in my next game. Essentially, relative to the game i played yesterday, the cavprince has been exchanged for a unit of WL with BOTWD and a slight decrease in PG size.

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