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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Very thourough analysis, must admit I skipped the table :-)

Just a few comments on heavens. Wind blast is actually useful in pushing a deathstart that extra few inches backward so they won't be charging next turn. Very situational and the worst in the deck, but useful in a shooting list.
Chain lightning can help vs skink spam and the like.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:52 pm 
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While Wind Blast has an effect that isn't useless per se, it is so situational that I'll never keep the spell, regardless of what I roll up.

Chain Lightning - indeed it's decent against spammy armies like MSU Elves and Lizardmen. I guess I'll see how my priorities evolve as I play games with this list :)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:10 pm 
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.::. Battle Report: 2400 ETC vs Lizardmen .::.

Time to put my list concept to the test! Having wondered about various Dragonlord builds, I eventually settled for an MSU cav approach. Read on to find out how my first game with it went:

Lists:

High Elves 2400 points

Star Dragon, Prince with: Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy armour = 596
Heavens Mage lvl 2 on horsie with scroll 155
Heavens Mage lvl 2 on horsie with power stone 150
Noble BSB with: Heavy Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, barded steed 166

Characters = 1067

6 SHelms, muso + champ & shields = 158
6 SHelms, muso + champ & shields = 158
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95

Core = 601

7 Dragon Princes, muso, standard, BOTWD = 273
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240

Special & rare = 723

Army Total = 2391

Lizardmen:

Slann with HE Loremaster spells, 3D6 channels and channeling staff. Re-rolls first failed dispel.
Skink with scroll, lvl 1 beasts
Saurus tankyhero on cold one, 1+ re-roll, sword of might
Saurus tankyhero on cold one, 1+ single re-roll, GW
Skink bare-bones on bird

3x10 Skinks
2x3 Terradons
2x1 Salamander

35 Saurus
28 Temple Guard with Razor Banner

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

Basically he has 2 blocks and lots of chaff, with a strong magic phase. I want to clear enough chaff to double or triple-charge the blocks, which I know I'm capable of tearing apart if the context is right. Heavens truly shines in this matchup as all spells are valuable. I need to get as much out of my own chaff as possible and know when to sacrifice semi-big things (i.e. silver helms) to get the big kill.

Deployment is fairly spread on both sides, with me taking care to not let him roll towards a single "chewy" point with ease. At best, he can target the RBTs but they are, by their very nature, fairly bad against Lz in the first place so I can't get around that. Magic saw me double up on Iceshard + comet + chain lightning. He took Wyssan's on his Lvl 1.

Image

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When deployment is done I vanguard offensively and manage to grab first turn.

// HE T1 //

Western Reavers backed up, central reavers backed up, Eastern Reavers full speed ahead to flank Terradons. I figured with a little luck, they could panic (roughly 50-50 on their LD test). Mages with DP for BOTWD protection, I know I won't be charging blocks T2 so no biggie. I move within 24" for chain lightning. Magic sees me get a pretty decent 7v5 split, however he dispels comet on 5v5 without the re-roll and my cast of Iceshard goes through. I would've needed another dice or two, enabling me to get off both chain lightning and comet, giving him a much tougher choice.

Shooting saw me indeed get a Terradon down but he passed panic. The RBTs did next to nothing, same for the other Reavers.

Image

// Lz T1 //

He moved up Terradons to drop rocks, indeed killing 4 Reavers on the West. His Terradon hero charged my Reavers, I chose S&S but managed nothing. Blocks somewhat defensive still. Magic, can't remember the split but I let through a 2D6 Fireball which obliterated all 5 of the central Reavers. A risk I chose to take which didn't end up going too well. I also failed to dispel a Searing Doom on my Silver Helms and lost 4 of them. Shooting sees him kill off the lone Reaver on the West and in combat he kills off the Reavers on the East. I am now without any Reavers and it's becoming painfully clear to me that I should've played them way more defensively in this matchup.

Image

// HE T2 //

Silver Helms, 2 remaining, charge the Salamander (needing 9+, so roughly 50-50). He holds and I make it. Dragon + Frostheart move up as far as they can towards his Saurus block (containing both heroes). DP get into position with the mages moving out to the other SHelm unit. Magic, he dispels comet and lets chain lightning through (!). I manage to bounce it once but nothing big happens. It's becoming a problem that his scroll is still intact. Shooting - RBTs fail miserably at trying to contain the Terradon threat as between the 2 of them, I can't manage a single wound. The last targets Temple Guard and downs a couple. Star Dragon uses breath weapon on the Saurus - but out of 20 hits I only score 5 wounds after saves. In combat I strike a very lucky blow as the SHelms kills the Salamander outright. This allows me to reform and use the unit as chaff, something I knew would be valuable.

Image

// Lz T2 //

Heroes move to the other block, TG turn towards the Dragon with the Saurus reforming. Skinks move around to target the Phoenix and Terradons charge their first RBT. Magic, he tries to spirit leech the Prince. I let it through and he does nothing. He then tries a boosted Searing Doom but fails to cast. Shooting - skinks manage nothing on the Frostheart. Combat: Terradons win and reform.

Image

// HE T3 //

Time to hit the hammer. Looking at last turn's picture, the following is an option: charging DP to the right flank of his Saurus, Frostheart center, Dragon left. This leaves the Dragon facing the TG and he's stubborn because of BOTWD. I declare all 3 charges but the DP, needing 8+, fail it. I luckily pass my SHelms march test and use them as a blocker, allowing me at least some time in combat with the Saurus before he hits home with the TG. I finally manage to draw his scroll in the magic phase. Shooting sees the last RBT take out another 2 TG. In combat I'm challenged out by champion and kill him, he fails to wound the Frostheart and the beast ensures I win combat through Thunderstomp.

Image

// Lz T3 //

Block charges SHelm chaffers. Rest move around, swarming me like Lizards tend to do. Magic sees my scroll drawn out as he Spirit Leeches my scroller with a very high roll (15 raw on 3D6, 19 with bonus). I contain the rest of the phase. Combat: I roll well with the monsters and utterly decimate him to the point where he has less than 10 remaining. I lose Crown at this point but my Prince is still unharmed so it's no biggie. He kills SHelmblockers easily.

Image

// HE T4 //

I charge the Skinks in front of me with the DP. He flees and I fail to catch him. This allows my mages to join the DP, getting BOTWD protection again, while the Helms move up to block his optimal charge at the Dragon, in case I can't win combat this turn he can't maximise against me. Magic sees me get an IF Comet and I place it behind his TG. BOTWD saves the worst of the damage, but my BSB takes a wound (does he get LoS against miscast templates? we played it as though he does not). In combat I wipe out his Saurus and the net result after these rounds is 1W on the Star Dragon, Crown lost on the Prince. Not too bad! I reform Star Dragon to face the TG head on, with the Phoenix turning around to assist as well. At this point in time, I'm VERY happy that BOTWD makes the Dragon stubborn -- a charge with 3 ranks, banner + bsb and challenging me out could've easily broken me otherwise.

Image

// Lz T4 //

He charges the Dragon. Magic sees him roll huge and end up 11v6. He starts of with 2D6 Lifebloom, which disastrously enough fails to cast with a '2' and a '1'! Everyone who's played Life extensively knows how real this threat is. However, this phase is super-vital as he wanted 4 casts: wyssan's x2, iceshard, lifebloom. I dispel the Priest's attempt at Wyssan's and his net effect is thus nothing. To add insult to injury, the comet came down and took 6 TG with it. The last RBT goes down and in combat I end up in a challenge against the tankiest hero, which I manage to dispatch with the might of the Star Dragon, despite his 1+ re-rollable (yes, I was lucky). I easily pass the break test and he knows it's coming for him.

Image

Rest of the game was like this: DP had a front charge so I triple-charged him with SHelms in flank, DP to the front, Frostheart to the front. I made a stupid risky move as I placed the BSB corner-to-corner with him, having only 1W left he was promptly killed for his troubles. The Shelm champ called out a challenge to maximise my Prince's and BSB's killing potential. He directed everything he could at my Prince, which went down despite the -1S strength aura (razor standard certainly doing its job!). However in return he had only 9 TG left after all attacks. As I rolled for thunderstomps, I got boxcars (what a break!) which was enough to obliterate him. He was thus not stubborn any longer and needed snake eyes to even stay in the fight. He failed this and I ran him down. In the last few turns of the game his Skinks managed to down the DP to 1 man remaining and kill off one of my mages.

The net result was still heavily in my favour, though I had bled a lot I was comfortably ahead around ~700 points and thus it was a 14-6 victory to the High Elves!

// Analysis //

I like the new Lizardmen. They seem appropriately nerfed. They are still a very powerful force to be reckoned with in the hands of a skilled general, without being over the top. Although I haven't faced all their shiny stuff nor their new tricks, what I played today felt "right". I doubt they need much comp to be "where they should be" (famous last words, eh?). I particularly like the synergy of 3D6 channeling with the channeling staff, it allows them to get a significant magic presence both defensively and offensively, while being somewhat random (thus not mindrazor-reliable). This encourages players to go for overall strong lores (i.e. Heavens) or the Loremaster (which really was an eye-opener in this game!). This in turn makes the big spells less make-or-break the game (though an IF Searing Doom with lots of hits on my Prince could've easily seen him roll over me).

Anyway, let's move on to the game itself. 2 big blunders from me: I picked the wrong side as his extensive cover really hurt my RBTs. This, combined with my poor Reaver play, netted him 500 points for basically nothing in return. I felt I played the flyers well, I was able to establish control quickly, line up with the cavalry and be in a significant combat from T3. Harder than it sounds, trust me, the key word being significant combat.

The BSB moving into B2B with the TG was also just beyond stupid. I just wanted a bit of extra combat resolution, but it's not worth the risk even though he can only face 2 return attacks.

EDIT: Note! Heaven's attribute means that spamming Iceshard Blizzard on Terradons might've been a decent early-game casting strategy.

For the Lizardmen part, we agreed that it was needless for him to play so offensively. With his Loremaster having an array of excellent spells against me, most notably Searing Doom, he could've hung back, let his chaff take care of my chaff and magicked all day. As in my last game vs Ogres, he wanted to see "what if", which makes a lot of sense as it's a new book and one needs to learn how it can play. In the end though, the Star Dragon and Frostheart prove why they may be one of our best combos in our own new book - at the end of the game the former had lost but a single wound, with the Frostheart having lost 2. Considering how much damage they faced and tanked up, this is pretty amazing.

So, having faced this list you might question whether I think a fireward is worth it on the Prince? My initial thoughts are nope, far from it. The thing is that the Prince will frequently die, end of story. It doesn't really matter if he does, depending on the game of course. However, you want him to live as long as possible to bring his OTS into effect for the Star Dragon. If something like a Searing Doom hits you, the Dragon will take most of the hits and it'll suffer badly regardless of his equipment. Furthermore, giving him 2++ vs fire reduces his armour save to 3+, which really is terrible. Statistically, you fail twice as many saves vs S3 with it and I think the threat of Searing Doom etc is too situational to be worth the swap. I won't forget that the option's there though!

Yeah I think that's about it for now. Hoping for some feedback from y'all :) Last but not least, the Dragonlord is BACK!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Regarding how much regen you will run into? Well, on top of my head, in no particular order:

Trolls (O&G)
Trolls (Chaos)
Hellpits
Hydras
Chimeras
Beasts of nurgle
Plaguebearers of nurgle (possibly anyway, not a given these days)
Crypt Horrors
Vargulfs
Terrorgheist (ok, so don't really count)
Ogres buffed with trollguts
Units buffed with earthblood (most likely elves and empire)
Ghoul king
Mortis Engine

So how much regen? Quite a lot it seems ;) That being said, some stuff is more likely than others, but I do think there's enough regen running around to warrant an answer to them. Personally, I really like the sisters, but that's more of a personal preference I guess.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:35 pm 
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@Zarbryn - indeed swapping an RBT for a small unit of Sisters is something worth thinking about. This also gives me a decent answer to Hexwraiths etc from VC without having to commit fighters. I will think about it! The problem is, there is little follow-up regardless and there is no way I can squeeze in the flaming banner. Also, although your list isn't exactly short, a lot of it's situational. The Chimera for example is T5 4W so plinking off enough for it to be killed on the charge isn't that hard. Beasts of Nurgle sport a ward save and I don't want to combat them in the first place unless I have to etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:48 pm 
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But if your BT's are shooting his chimera, they're not shooting his Daemon Prince, skullecrushers, chariots -insert nasty stuff here -. I do agree however that quite a lot of it isn't something you see regularly, trolls from O&G beeing the most common, along with HP's and hydras I suppose. Sisters are good, but are they worth sacrificing a BT for? Dunno, testing will tell I suppose


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:57 pm 
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The thing is that fire-based shooting in itself needs follow-up to be effective. Against a Chimera, Archers are useless regardless due to its T5, 4+ AS. You need RBT follow up here so they're not shooting his DP regardless. Same thing goes for Hydra. The best thing, ironically enough, would be a Fire Phoenix, seeing as its I is higher than Frostie and Star Dragon. It's such a shame that it's way too expensive. With just a little smaller points cost or a little better stats, it would definitely be worth considering. Sure, I might give it a go actually in favour of the 3 RBTs, but I really don't expect it to be worth it. 3 S5 attacks is truly miserable in combat and its fly-over ability is very, very situational as is its rebirth-ability.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:04 pm 
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it makes the follow-up more likely to succeed though, instead of risking wasting a lot of firepower


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:32 pm 
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True, but again it is situational. Lots of matchups will leave sisters even more more useless than RBT and they lack the board control element which is what I consider to be the RBTs greatest asset.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:58 pm 
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*shrug* merits to both units, but when you "only" got 3 BT's, I can see why you won't want to give one up. Got 3 and 7 sisters in my list atm, but they're very much on trial :D


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:01 pm 
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It depends entirely on army composition. Take Trolls for example, a unit that can be rock hard if you don't have flaming to deal with them. With significant shooting follow-up, Sisters are truly deadly against trolls. In my army on the other hand, they don't really do a whole lot. Same thing goes vs VC Crypt Ghouls.

I think that the best choice for a list like mine is either the RBT (for board control) or a secondary phoenix (for pure awesomesauce). Unfortunately, I'm limited to 1 Frostheart Phoenix by comp, and a Flamespyre Phoenix just doesn't have the same oomph. I want to play it, I really do, but I can't see it being worthwhile given its high cost. It does of course have a few merits, but against 3 S5 attacks... It's just so "meh...". Sure, you have some situational advantages like being able to tank flaming cannonballs for the Dragon but yeah, situational is the key word.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:26 am 
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Good to see you returning to the dragon lord, when I think of Curu the first thing that comes to mind has always been StarDragon.

I am very interested to see how you will make him work at 2400 points, as he really becomes the epitome of glass cannon due to the lack of magic items he can be given.
I am wondering how you feel about a more defensive loadout, he can afford to be run with 4++ and enchanted shield for 2+ AS.
My reasoning for a more defensive kit is that he is a very easy 100VP (bonus for general) is he gets caught in a protracted combat. I do understand that the point of him is to not be caught in these combats, but I am also aware that sometimes it will happen.

My second query is how are you intending to deal with horde armies such as skaven, vampires, OnG, Dwarves, beastmen. You have no ranks in the army, and I don't think the dragon has enough damage output to strip away steadfast, even when combined with the phoenix. Lore of heavens, which I agree is the best lore for this army, offers very little in terms of crowd control.

I am glad you are back to the dragon and look forward to following your blog.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Great report Curu - made good reading.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:09 am 
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Good report :D

Impressions
-Nice to see a win vs a very good player, and using a very tactical list at that.
-As already discussed, vs BS-shooting heavy armies, keep the chaff in hard cover behind other units until they're useful.
-I don't think risking the BSB was stupid. He had 2+ save and few return attacks coming. The odds were in your favour.
-The distinct lack of cries for LZ comp makes me wonder if they're perfectly balanced, or just TK underpowered and it'll take a while before peopke notice. What do you think?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Hey Curu!

I recently had the opportunity to play vs. the new lizards as well, and I totally agree with your sentiments. Looking through their book, I can see plenty of great combos, yet nothing that seemed outwardly broken (* cough* looking at you cupped hands).

Great match - I was sweating a bit for you when most of your chaff went the way of the dodo. However, you managed to really demonstrate what your list and your play style is so good at: using mobility to establish board control and set up favorable combats. I'm really glad you gravitated back to the dragon list! I see some very strong potential, and look forward to watching the list develop.

I share your pain with the Reavers; due to their lack of flying, they require a larger degree of planning and foresight to use effectively. I think you hit the nail on the head in this game though - aggressive advances put them in precarious positions vs. an army that had plenty of tools to deal with them. I agree with rusty's point that vs an army like this, keep them sheltered until they are needed.

Loving that you are using heavens too. I was looking at the lore last book, and I'm glad to see its getting some attention!

Keep up the good work, looking forward to more

D

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:35 pm 
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@Sackree - I don`t consider 4++ to be more defensive because you will die in prolonged combat regardless. The re-rolling armour saves is the crucial part about durability. The Golden Crown allows him to at least (hopefully) absorb that first cannonball and put him in a good spot. Horde armies? Check the last report. Saurus don't hurt me, neither will [insert crappy unit from another book] regardless of numbers ;) The problem isn't blocks since they have nothing to run for. The problem is everything else along with them. Examples: OnG artillery, manglers, fanatics, VC Spirit Leech spam, Terrorgheists, Ethereals etc.

@Seredain - thanks! Will keep them coming ;)

@rusty - Chaff - definitely. BSB had 3+ because his TG had the Razor Standard. With double Wyssan's they are absolutely brutal (-4 to armour saves if one goes off...). Whether Lz is balanced or not remains to be seen, a little too early to tell just yet.

@Brewmaster_D - losing all chaff early is never a good idea. Getting both monsters into combat is, however, a very good idea ;) I'm finding Heavens to be a strong lore so far.

___

I just got home from 2 games: one against Warriors of Chaos, one against Empire (both very skilled opponents, I rarely face poor players any longer as the reports probably show). I don`t have time to write the reports now but they will come up at some point ;) Anyways, I thought I`d share some thoughts:

- The list currently only has 2 hitty elements. I'm really hating the 0-1 Frostheart restriction because it would be the perfect addition to this list. Skipping the Bolt Throwers loses me a lot of board control, but it also strips away the only static elements this list has. I think it would be worth it, given my preferred playstyle. I don`t see any good options for replacing this "lost frostheart". An option is to skip a mage for a cannonball-catching noble type of dude, but it's no-where near as strong as the bird. Another option is the Flamespyre variant but 3 S5 attacks just doesn't have the oomph. At least the Flamespyre has some merits: Flame Wake is decent, 2++ vs Fire can be used to help the Dragon vs Daemons, flaming attacks on I4 helps my monsters in combat against regen and last but not least a thunderstomping flyer is never a bad idea against infantry.

- The BSB is too weak. 1+ isn't enough, given the importance of his re-rolls. He needs to either get the Dawnstone, or chill out in the back (if possible). Also, 3 S6 is very "meh", even with ASF.

- One thing I hadn't considered the impact of (in-game wise) is Walk Between Worlds on a Star Dragon/Frostheart. This really can set up a lot of lucrative things. Also - if I go for a Flamespyre bird the possiblity of dual flame-wake is pretty tempting. I think this pushes High Magic into "high" for early-game scroll-drawing potential: there are 3 must-stop spells - Arcane Unforging, Fiery Convocation, Walk Between Worlds. Of course, this depends on the army I'm facing but the same goes for Heavens.

- Playing against monstrous cavalry is a terrible prospect. Given the lack of heavy hitters and not to mention, durability on just about anything, the threat arcs they create which dictate my movement are just insane. I don't know how this can be mitigated. Perhaps I need to deploy differently. Note that MC don't really fear Comet either, so I can't use it to enhance board control the same way I can in other scenarios, i.e. the way I would against MSU Lz.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:03 pm 
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Very much enjoyed this last battle report.
Its good to see lists without ranks doing well, and give me the confidence to try the HE list I want to play....

One question for you: why the reavers over more SH. I know reavers are fast cav, but SH are nearly as fast, alot more durable and hit quite a bit harder. In all, I'd of thought SH can do most of the same duties and a heap more (read: add something to combo charges)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:04 am 
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Reavers are infinitely more mobile than Silver Helms. Their fast cav status means that not only do they receive the vanguard advantage, but the free reform as many times as you please, feigned flight, march and reform ensure that they will be where you need them, when you need them.

I had a game against Dwarfs yesterday. I am now 3 reports behind and unfortunately, I don't know when I will have time to fix it. Perhaps there will just be brief descriptions instead.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:47 pm 
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Hey Curu, I finally got around to reading some of your latest battle reports! I particularly enjoyed the game against the new Lizard since you decided to bring back the Dragon Lord :D. Great win !! When first looking at the Dragon Lord concept with the new book I myself seemed to wonder how I could protected my lord as well as we could with the 7th edition book (and I play most games around 2500). It is a super downer that we can't max our lord out now if he is riding a star dragon, so at first I thought the dragon might have to be down graded..... but that would just suck. Glad to see you have stuck by the Lord on Star Dragon and I like that your list is super fast now and gives your opponents a lot to target and worry about early in the game. I look forward to reading up and learning from your future games.

Avicii

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:03 am 
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I could actually see a Firebird being very useful in your list. I think one of the reasons many view it as inferior for our list to the Winterbird is because so much more in our army is geared to pump out lots of S3-4, so what it does is somewhat redundant. Yet in your list, there isn't as much horde killing. I could see a use for the flamespyre that would involve whittling down hordes/chaff on the way to taking out war machines, it could also do the former by dying, what with the flame rekindled rule.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:53 am 
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Since Curu doesn't have time to post I'll give a quick update. We had another game last night with HE vs Dwarfs. The Flamespyre Phoenix did get a chance to wreck some face. I think it did good, 3 flying thunderstompers incoming is alot. Another tidbit from the game was a Comet of Cassandora that reached EPIC proportions before crashing down, 6 markers makes for a lot of hurt [-o< Hope this whets your appatites until som reports start showing up again.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:58 am 
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I`ve had a total of 5 games that I haven't been able to detail yet. I`m hoping I'll have an hour or two tonight to at least give a brief description and list musings :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:29 pm 
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So unfortunately, no time to give even a brief description of the games in terms of BR :( I'll answer the questions instead and give you a few teasers about the games which I promise to detail to some degree next week :)

@Avicii - Truth be told, the Star Dragon does so much on its own that the Lord truly doesn't matter *that* much. At least that's my experience thus far.

@Gondarion - I tried it for one game. It has its virtues but is too expensive I believe. I probably won't try it more because it reduces the options my list has against so many opponents.

@Strange - thanks for stepping in for me ;)

So, 5 games. 3 vs Dwarfs in the hands of Strange. Two games really emphasized the power of T1 and the flexibility of having the BOTWD with a Star Dragon. While often overlooked, the Stubborn part is insane against e.g. Dwarfs. Say you can present a free charge for 2 combat units: if you get flanked and challenged out you're quickly looking at -5-6 combat res (flank charge 3 ranks banner bsb against what the S4 Prince can do in the challenge). In this case, being stubborn is a real killer. The last game emphasized just how ridiculous the Comet can be, although it is of course very rare. Apart from these 3, I had one game vs WoC. Very interesting, you should look forward to it. A very lucky Hellcannon shot which hit me indirectly (behind a hill) removed 6W from the Star Dragon before I had even moved, which sorta forced my hand. The last game was against Empire. A very unorthodox list sporting only 1 cannon and no STank. Incredibly powerful though and my favourite game in a long time! Lots of tactical play, lots of nail-biting moments, lots of frustration!

I'll come back with more ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:52 pm 
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Thanks for the report Curu.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:44 pm 
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So yeah, real life happened. I'm sorry I haven't been around, truth be told there hasn`t been any Warhammer since last time I wrote either. Unfortunately the games I were talking about then is no longer fresh in memory. I'll see if I can do quick recaps when I get around to finding the pictures again.

Anyway, moving on: I'm ready to play again and have been doing some thinking with regards to the list. Currently I'm evaluating the following two configurations, the first of which will face its first challenge on Thursday:

High Elves 2400 points

Star Dragon, Prince with: Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy armour = 596
High Mage lvl 2 on horsie with scroll 155
High Mage lvl 2 on horsie with power stone, furyring 175
Noble BSB with: Dragon Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, barded steed 172

Characters = 1098

13 Helms, fc shields = 329

5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95

Core = 614

28 WL, FC BOTWD = 444
Frostheart = 240

Special & rare = 684

Army Total = 2396

List #2:

High Elves 2400 points
Star Dragon, Prince with: Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy armour = 596
High Mage lvl 2 with scroll, furyring = 170
Noble BSB on Griffon (Swooping Strike, Swiftsense) with Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Lance, Potion of Foolhardiness, Lion Cloak, Dawnstone, Shield = 346
Characters = 1112

14 Archers, muso = 150
6 SHelms, Shields & full command = 168
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
5 Reavers, bows & muso = 95
Core = 603

28 WL, FC BOTWS = 444
Frostheart = 240
Special & rare = 684

Army Total = 2399

C&C appreciated :)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:57 pm 
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Quote:
Noble BSB with: Dragon Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, barded steed 172

Dragon Armour, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, barded steed.
You get same defense for cheaper, and 5 points for a luckstone or a foolhardiness potion (or whatever goody).


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:09 pm 
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Welcome back Curu.

In the first list, do all three mounted characters ride with the helms? If so, why 13 helms? Just for extra padding?

In the second list I understand the dawnstone 1+ approach on the griffon bsb, but I think this leaves you dangerously exposed to cannons. You're probably relying on target saturation, planning on opponent shooting cannons at the prince or frosty, which I get. But I would personally recommend replacing the dragon helm with a charmed shield.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:06 pm 
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@Elindar - ES is already taken by the Prince :)

@vespacian1 - thanks! 13 Helms to make core go up, nothing else. Don't see any better way of spending my points. If you do, please let me know :) As far as cannons are concerned, a charmed shield isn't going to save him. His viability hinges on my opponent's willingness to kill other things, which is why I'm hesitant in the first place. Even if he gets into combat relatively unharmed, T5 W4 isn't going to last that long.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:58 am 
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Hey Curu, I just wanted to pop in and say thanks for the write ups and tactics featuring the Star Dragon Prince. I really liked the idea of a dragon as my army 'center piece' as a hobbyist, but I also am player at heart. Therefore I was avoiding the Dragon since I was reading that it was not the best choice around until I ran into your blog.

I am noting that you have pretty much stopped altering your Star Dragon build, and have used the same one in most of your recent lists. Is that the best build you have found through play testing? Are you considering other builds still? I said screw it and threw down, building my own Star Dragon Prince for a game coming up. It seems like for model construction purposes a Lance and Shield is a safe bet for the Prince, regardless of whether you are using a mundane lance or the Star Lace.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:32 am 
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Hey Nevar, thanks for stopping by! Truth be told, I haven’t really missed anything so I don’t see any reason why I would want to change my build. No matter how you look at it, with only 70 points to spend on gear the Prince is going to be a delivery system, end of story. Everything else is a bonus. Because of this I’ve focused on getting him there and having him actually do something when he gets there. I’ve found that the Golden Crown is quite adequate at this, given the context I play in, and a 2+ armour save is pretty much mandatory in my opinion, given the amounts of S3 spam these days. Furthermore, the Star Lance is arguably the best weapon available to us (rivaled by the Giant Blade) and at 30 points, I see no reason not to include it. To end things, TOTS actually forces enemies to focus on him, as it increases the dragon’s damage output. In my gaming group, which has its fair share of skilled players, it’s a general consensus that this build is superior: the only debate is whether the Dragonhelm or enchanted shield is best (note that dragonhelm leaves you with a 1 point weaker save as you can’t afford enough armour). What builds do you consider contending this setup and why?

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