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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Welcome to my blog! To be honest this is a mash of all sorts of things but, for the most part, is about me trying to find my way with High Elves and create a competitive all-comers list.

CONTENTS

Current list & discussion Link

Images

Hobby Articles
  • Paint Brush Review Link

8th ed. HE BatReps
16. 2500pts Star Dragon v. Nurgle WoC
17/ 2500pts Star Dragon v. Lizardmen (8th ed. book)

7th ed. HE BatReps
Games using the Coven of Light
15. 2400pts v. Daemons
14. 2400pts v. WoC
13. Several Short Updates using 2400pt Coven
12. 2400pts v. Bretonnia
11. 2400pts v. Warriors of Chaos (8th ed. list) via UB
10. 2400pts v. Lizardmen (mini report)
9. 2400pts v. Wood Elves (shortened BAtRep)
8. 2400pts v. Ogres (short BatRep)Link
7. 2400pts v. Tomb Kings Link

Games using a Dragon Lord
6. 2500pts v. Lizardmen Link
5. 2500pts v. Lizardmen Link
4. 2500pts v. Ogre Kingdoms Link

Games with a Shadow Archmage & two solid combat blocks supported by artillery
3. 2500pts v. Bretonnians Link
2. 2500pts v. Ogre Kingdoms Link
1. 2500pts v. Ogre Kingdoms Link

Tournament Reports
3. AG Mini-Tournament Link
2. Crossroads GT Link
1. Adventurers Guild (2500pt Star Dragon List) Link


Last edited by John Rainbow on Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:38 pm, edited 61 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Current army list (Feb. 2013)

Quote:
Archmage(4)+Dusk Jewel, Ironcurse
Seermage[Phas, Banishment]
Mage(1)+Annulian
BSB+RGoH, GW,HA

24 Archers +MS, Flaming
14 Archers +M
14 Archers +M

24 WLs +CMS, BoS,Am.Light
14 SMs +CMS, Gleaming Pennant
14 SMs +CMS

2 x Great Eagle


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Army list from July 2012:

Quote:
Prince Alithir on Stardragon + GW, AoC, Vambraces, Talis. Loec
Casyin, Noble BSB on eagle + S.Might, DA, shield, Helm Fortune
Eiltia, Level 2 Light Mage + Annulian
Fenrier, Level 2 Light Mage + Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon

28 Seaguard + command, shields, BoEF
21 Archers + mus

25 WLs + command, Am.Light, +1 Movement Banner
7 SMs + command, Skeinsliver, Gleaming Pennant

2 x GE


Discussion
This list is designed to be fast and hit hard. The Dragon mounted Prince and BSB on Eagle are the epitome of this thought, at least for High Elves! The list is designed in the main to support the Dragon. This necessitates fast and mobile units like the BSB, but also the White Lions with the movement banner. Filling out the rest of the characters are two mages. Currently both Elitia and Fenrier are using Light magic as I feel it synergises really well with this list. I mainly take magic missiles to help me deal with Ethereals/Chaff and then go for buffs/debuffs. My favourite spell in the lore is probably Net of Amyntok as it can cause real problems for an opponent - cast it on their level 4 (or his unit) to see why! Other spells like Pha's Protection help me defend the Dragon and Timewarp is always nasty, especially with flying heroes. This list also has serious magic defence, at 2500pts most armies run at least a lvl4 caster and the scroll/crystal are necessary to counter this and make up for my own lack of top-tier casting ability.

In core, flexibility is the name of the game. The core units in the this list are slower than the other elements and as such need to be more flexible - ranged output is a necessity as well as the ability to support other units in CC. This flexibility of purpose has driven the inclusion of the LSG (not one of the most points efficient High Elf units) but advantageous in this situation. The mages either bunker in here or in the archers and are placed close together if one of them rolls Banishment as a spell to get the +1Str bonus.

The special choices of WLs and SMs are included for specific reasons. The WLs are able to act fairly independently of support due to their inherent high strength and greater AS v. shooting. The banner and amulet are included to increase their utility and prevent ethereals, etc from slowing them down or locking them up. With such a magically depleted army (relative to other HE lists), WLs are the only real choice for a solid combat block. The SMs are included only as a caddy for the Skeinsliver. The extra banner they carry is also helpful for Blood and Glory type scenarios. This is the unit that I am least happy with as they are a bit of an afterthought. I have a few ideas concerning them and how else to use the points but that is for the future. Note that I can't add points to other units as most of the tournaments I play in put a 450pt cap on units or limit the number of missile weapons, etc allowed in a given list.

At least 2 Eagles are an auto include for me. I would prefer 3 but points are at a premium here and the Dragon and Eagle BSB can alleviate the need for the third flyer. While these two guys certainly aren't sacrificial in the way that eagles can be, they do help control an enemies movement.


Last edited by John Rainbow on Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:53 pm, edited 15 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:01 pm 
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For a while I've been considering doing my own army blog. I've only been playing Fantasy for a year (played some 40K before but not much) and think the time is right to get started in recording my experiences and getting some feedback! I also feel like I am taking a slightly different approach to some of the others around here - probably due to local meta so thought it might be useful for others to see a different approach.

When I first started to play HE I took inspiration from Seredain and tried a cav list. Having never played Warhammer before I lacked the tactical ability to use it well and as you might guess, got a good kicking with it. I moved from there to a more defensive list with both PG and WL and a Life mage with the standard robes, talis. setup. I came to the conclusion that this list didn’t really get its points worth back and trying to use two big elite units wasn’t a great way to go - generally one unit did well and the other did nothing. I also found that Life magic didn’t really help me win, it just helped me die more slowly or draw things out. Therefore my current list was born (after a few other combinations it isn’t really worth talking about).

Initial army list (April 2012):

Archmage(4) [Shadow] + wand, robes, 4++
Mage(1) [High] + scroll
Noble BSB + GW, armour of caledor, 5++

50 SpearElves (horde) + command, flaming banner
12 Archers + musician & standard

30 White Lions (horde) + command, banner of sorcery
14 Sword Masters + command

3 x Great Eagle
3 x RBT

List Discussion:

Archmage(4) [Shadow]
Shadow magic has been good to me so far and works well with my list (only two main units to worry about buffing/debuffing). The wand ensures I almost always get exactly what I want (okkams and some debuffs) and the ward protects the mage from inevitable miscasts when 6 dicing spells. Folariaths is too good to pass up in my opinion. Especially if the mage is in a combat unit. I generally try to put it good effect in challenges, etc.

Mage(1) [High]
I have often found that I need a backup caster simply to carry arcane items. However my Archmage uses all my PD. Thus this guy came into the picture. I went for the scroll over the crystal as it's cheaper and whenever I had the crystal I always thought at some point 'I wish I had a scroll'. Shield of Saphery is almost exclusively the spell I take with this guy as it has so much utility.

Noble BSB
Don't leave home without one, usual setup. Nuff sed.

50 Spearmen
These guys attack in 5 ranks (4 on the charge) and are truly terrifying when Mind Razored. They form the backbone of my army and usually sit back while my WLs take a flank. The reason I went for a huge horde is that my local scene emphasises big old units and deathstars and I need something that can stand up to it. I started playing with 36 spearmen but the unit grew and grew with games until this was the result. As mentioned they put out serious hurt with helps from spells, and, if going it alone are at least a really big speed bump. I always take the flaming banner due to the preponderance of regenerating enemies around the place and it helps fill out my core.

12 Archers
I did experiment with dropping these guys but was being constantly annoyed by enemy chaff units. Therefore they came back with a vengeance. The musician and standard fill out my core requirement and have proved useful in the past.

30 White Lions
A killer unit. These guys always perform well. Horde formation really compliments WLs due to the lone attack per man. I did experiment in the past with PG and SM but they never did enough damage. These guys fulfill a different role to my spearmen and in full force, can take on almost any unit in the game. they also do this reliably without buffs - something that I feel PG and SM lack. I have destroyed everything from units of 50 Flagellants to Ogre-Stars with these guys. I have to say they aren’t my favourite fluff wise but they are hard to look past in the game.

14 Sword Masters
I brought back the SM as they fit the points left over when I made space in the list for 3 RBTs. They seem to be doing better than simply having two large units of special (i.e. WLs and PG) and have a bit more flexibility as a smaller unit. A unit of 14 SM hits pretty hard and is incredibly useful in tipping a combat or in drawing your opponent’s eye. For some reason everyone is scared of SM!

3 x Great Eagle
A fan favourite and all around awesome unit. I am trying to use these better in my upcoming games. I have gotten pretty good with placing these guys but have been guilty of 'spending' them too early in the past. I am trying to think more about when I use them rather than rushing out of the gates and getting shot down early doors.

3 x RBT
I had found that without RBTs and few archers in my core, I was really lacking ranged damage output. Initially I had a large unit of PG but it was rare that I would get my moneys worth out of both the PG and the WLs. Thus the PG made way for 3 RBTs and some SM. Expect some critical analysis of this aspect of the list as I test this change out.

So that’s the list and some discussion of the reasoning behind it. As I move forward I guess it will change and I’ll try to record that as I move on.

I’m expecting a lot of feedback and advice so please do comment and make your thoughts known!


Last edited by John Rainbow on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:15 pm 
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The Spear Horde is interesting.

List lacks magical attacks though. I'd be tempted to swap one defensive item for Ring of Fury and put Amulet of Light in.

The shooting phase with Withering now looks very tasty.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:25 pm 
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2500pts v. Ogre Kingdoms
The first battle report of the blog!

My list was as described at the start of the blog. His was something like this...

Level 4 [Maw] + Greedyfist, Fencers Blades, Dispel scroll
Level 2 [Beasts] + Hellheart
BSB + GW, 4++

10 Ironguts + GW
8 Ogres + hand weapon & ironfist

8 Maneaters + scouting & pistols, dragon breath banner
3 Sabretusks
2 Ironblaster (laser guided) cannons

Spells:
HE: I got pit, okkams, miasma, enfeebling and pendulum on my level 4. My level 1 took shield as usual.

Ogres: His level 4 got spells for; regen, +1T, +1S and the ogre magic missile while his level 2 got yssans and something else.

Deployment:
Image
We played with open lists, Ogres won the roll and deployed first. He started with his chaff and I followed with mine. I then deployed my archers in the center of the board to force him to place the first real unit of importance. He placed the Ogres on his left flank so I deployed my spearmen towards my left. He placed the Ironguts in the center so I used my WLs to cover my right flank and went from there. The RBTs and SMs were placed to stop the scouting Man Eaters from getting too close although I think the eagles had already stopped them from scouting behind my lines. I put my mages in my center to avoid the Hellheart after his butcher went into the unit of Ogres (a strange placement).

I was happy with how deployment ended up. It was a fairly unusual deployment for me but I was confident my WLs would take the right flank and sweep towards the center to help out my spearmen.

Ogre Turn 1
Image
He won the roll off for first turn (I rolled a one!) and proceeded in moving up across the board. His Man Eaters rotated slightly to see both the Eagle and SMs while his cannons also moved to target my birds.

Magic was 6v5 and fairly uneventful. Spells were targeted on the unit of Ogres with the Butcher and I dispelled an attempt at giving them regen. This meant that they ended up with +1T. I wasn’t really too concerned about this unit having any buffs as I felt my WLs would be able to handle them when the time came. I was going to be shooting his Ironguts!

Shooting saw his laser guided cannons kill my two flanking birdies. He got off 4 shots with his Man Eaters on my SM (some were out of forward arc) and succeeded in killing 4 of my elite boys with some good rolling.

High Elf Turn 1
Image
I started the turn by declaring a charge on his Man Eaters with my SM - I would’ve been in the flank so it was an opportunity I had to take. It was a long shot though and the SMs failed by a long way. The rest of my force moved up while my remaining eagle moved to block his Ironguts.

Magic was 10v3 and I opened up with miasma on 2d against his Guts. This went through followed by a decent cast of Pit of Shades which he scrolled. Pendulum hit but failed to cause any wounds on the same unit.

The RBTs and archers combined to put 6W on the Irongut unit.

Ogre Turn 2
Image
The Ogre advanced was somewhat stalled this turn with just the Maneaters and SabreTusks making any threatening moves. His Ogres with the Butcher backed up away from my approaching WLs. My opponent made a good move here though in switching the position of his Slaughtermaster (with the magic weapons) to be in position to take on my mage if I made a long charge with my spearmen next turn. It almost paid off for him...

Magic was 5v4 and he got nothing off.

My remaining eagle was killed by cannon fire but had done its job of pinning his Ironguts in place for my spearmen to charge in! His Man Eaters failed to hit any of my SM and the other Ironblaster misjudged its bounce, a rare occurrence!

High Elf Turn 2
Image
CHARGE!!! My Spearmen declared a (long) charge on the Ironguts who held ready whilst my WLs declared on his unit of Ogres. In the center my spearmen rolled well and made it into B2B with the Guts and his heroes. I felt I had to attempt this move to avoid his charge in the next turn which comes a la impact hits and other nastiness. On the left, the Ogres + Butcher elected to flee. WLs are obviously scary! On my left, the SM elected to move into the building to avoid being shot by the Man Eaters and make themselves harder to hit.

Magic was 9v4 and I went for Mind Razor on 6d knowing that my spearmen would need help. I barely got the required 18 and held my breath as the Slaughtermaster tried to dispel with his 4 dice. They also came out low and my Spears became Super-Spears! As I now had free reign in the magic phase I miasma’d his Guts and put Shield of Saphery on my Spears for good measure.

A poor shooting phase followed a decent magic phase and after 6 hits on the SabreTusks, I only did 1W from the RBTs.

Combat was suitably bloody as expected. I challenged with my BSB to avoid some casualties on my unit and he responded with his BSB. The result of the challenge was that my noble took a wound. My spearmen hit next and there were precious few ogres remaining afterwards. Unfortunately though his Lord was one of those few. I could only allocate 11 spear attacks to him and so, he prepared to make mincemeat of my Archmage. Fortunately my wizard lord didn’t take any wounds but got hit 3 times and therefore lost 3 wizard levels - the greedy fist really sucks! I was left with miasma and pit of shades only. In the end I had won combat by a huge amount but he held on snake eyes! I felt confident though as I would still have a 5++ and a huge strength bonus into his next turn.

Ogre Turn 3
Image
We both knew that if I destroyed his main unit of Guts, the game would be done - they were worth too many points and my WLs were looking very threatening to his other unit on my right. To this end, the Ironblaster and SabreTusk charged into the fray with my spearmen in an attempt to generate some combat res for him in the event that my spears rolled badly (not likely ;) ). On the other side of the board his Ogres could not rally and fled to be dangerously close to the board edge. His cats moved to threaten my RBTs (one even completed a long charge) but I wasn’t too worried about this.

Magic was 3v2 and I used my scroll to end things quickly. I didn’t want any buffs going off in such a crucial turn!

There wasn’t a lot of shooting here. His Man Eaters making a lot of noise but not doing any damage whilst peppering the side of the building in which my SM were cowering. His Ironblaster on my right flank misfired and could not shoot.

Predictably I won the big combat and destroyed everything in front of the spears - the unit and the heroes. The Ironblaster and SabreTusk that had so recently joined the combat ran away just as quickly and I caught the cannon with my pursuit. This was handy as it also took my spears closer to his Man Eaters - the only threatening unit left. The combat with the RBT and cat was tied as I caused a single wound.

High Elf Turn 3
Image
I continued moving towards his remaining units in this turn but we both knew the battle was all but over. My WLs continued to press towards his Ogre unit and my spears manoeuvred towards his Man Eaters. My archers reformed to shoot one of the cats in my backfield.

Magic was 9v4 and a combination of Miasma (-3 I) followed by Pit of Shades on his Man Eaters resulted in 4 dead ogres. My Archmage did miscast though and ended up killing 15 Spearmen and finishing off my BSB! I had rolled a 3 on the miscast table but, luckily avoided being sucked into the void by rolling a 4.

My shooting was fairly ineffective this turn and combat was also a non-phase.

Further Turns
We actually played out the game to turn 4 in case my opponent could salvage something but it wasn’t to be. In his 4 his Ogres again did not rally and fled the field. It was over.

Result
Massacre to the High Elves! Hoorah!

Obviously a great result for me and my list but what did I learn? I think in this case I did particularly well in my deployment. The Ogres ended up being too spread out across the field whilst I could afford to spread out a little more here after I saw his drops. I knew I could rely on my WLs to take the right flank without a lot of support and they did not disappoint - their mere presence was enough to force the ogres to flee!

The battle in the center was not so certain but I do believe that I made the right choice in going for the charge when I did and hoping for magical support in CC. Shadow magic really encourages being aggressive as you are only guaranteed most of the spells being active in your phase (i.e. the remains in play spells) and I believe being more aggressive here paid off. I also had to pick apart his unit before his Man Eaters got too close (more on his use of these in a minute). The resulting combat was as one-sided as it sounded in this report and demonstrates a flaw with tieing up so many points in a single unit. This is something I need to take note of as I am also guilty of the same with my Spear/hero unit and the WLs both being expensive! If I lose one of these units I lose the game 9/10 times as happened to my opponent.

When I charged in with the spears I knew my mage would be in trouble. Obviously I still had to go for the charge and hope for the best - that he didn’t die. Luckily I survived but my opponent playing tricks like moving his characters around is something I should watch out for. In this case it was too late to do anything about it though. Maybe I should consider putting my mage elsewhere, he is ethereal after all. I don’t think this match up with Ogres got the most out of my RBTs so the jury is still out on them so to speak. They don’t do their best work against high T monsters. With my eagles, I didn’t really get a chance to use them thanks to some accurate cannon balls so I will comment on these more in the future.

As for my opponent I was a little puzzled with his deployment. We played with open lists so knew what each other had but I don’t think he took advantage of this. By splitting his forces he played more to my strengths as I had a dependable unit in the WLs I could rely on to take one of his units out of the game. Putting his Hellheart Butcher on the flank was also a waste in my opinion. My mages were never going to go on that side of the board so his placement made an expensive (and very good!) item entirely redundant. The Man Eaters similarly never really got into the game. My deployment stopped their scout rule from ruining my day early on but by holding them back and not being aggressive with them it allowed me time to take apart the rest of his force. A unit of 8 Man Eaters would’ve destroyed my SM in CC so why he held off and shot with them is a mystery to me. They needed to move up and force me to at least think about them being a threat. Having said this however, the building close to my deployment zone did help out my spearmen as it protected their flank from this unit.

So, any comments/criticisms would be great. This is also the first time I’ve used Battle Chronicler so any tips there would be good too. Thanks for reading everyone and I’ll try and get another BatRep up soon. I should be gaming again on Thursday...


Last edited by John Rainbow on Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Well done! Nice clear report too.

Good use of Shadow magic seems to have been key here and I agree he needed to make the Hellheart count. Maybe he should have saved his scroll for that crucial Mindrazor and taken his chances with Pit.

I'm sure that with Withering the RBT will start to make their presence felt!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:53 pm 
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Hey John

Firstly i like your list, its solid and quite dependable and due to the low number of drops your likely to get the +1 for first turn. The choice of shadow magic is a given with your list and that spear block is truly terrifying when razored. I think the inclusion of the flaming banner on the spears is a fairly good choice i'm just concerned that with open lists you may find yourself blocked by a character with the dragonhelm.

I think the biggest problems with having such large blocks is that you need them to see combat to earn their points back. Big blocks are very easy to redirect and hamper and you may stuggle somewhat with msu style armies. You rbt's will really need to perform against msu to stop you getting surrounded and combo charged.

I'm intrigued to see how the 3 rbt's play out as they will generally be left quite vunerable. This is probably the only change i would make to the list and maybe add another hammer unit. On the plus side they will certainly recieve quite a lotve attention from your enemies which you may be able to take advantage of. I know 3 rbt's would worry me.

As for the game, whats there to say? Your deployment was excellent in my eyes and whilst the placement of the swordmasters wasn't ideal they kept the maneaters at bay the whole game.

Your opponent made several errors during the game which did not help him. His deployment was unusual as your said in you report it was very unusual dropping the butcher on the left.

In turn 2 he could've blocked your spearelves with a sabertusk while his guts slew the eagle. This wouldve almost certainly bought them into a makeable charge range for his turn 3. The tusk on the right couldve blocked your lions for a turn while he other tusk looped behind the guts to hamper the lions again. This way the ogres could moved up to threaten your centre. What would you have done in this case?

Having said this I think you played well and to the strengths of your army and it goes to show how scared of our elite infantry our opponents are! The white lions can certainly be used to deny a large area of the battlefield as no one wants to see combat with them.

A Great game and I look forward to seeing how your army fares when the game lasts 6 turns! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:57 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
List lacks magical attacks though. I'd be tempted to swap one defensive item for Ring of Fury and put Amulet of Light in.

You are correct on this one and it's something I should be concerned with. I'm overly dependent on what is fairly poor/unreliable ranged magical output from Shadow Lore which is definitely a problem. I think the only choice I have is to lose a Sword Master (or two) and put the Amulet of Light on my White Lions/Sword Masters. This does leave all my magical attacks cornered in one unit though. What is your opinion on this?

Caradryal wrote:
i'm just concerned that with open lists you may find yourself blocked by a character with the dragonhelm

This could be a problem but, I tend not to play open lists usually and also, charging a lone character into my unit would be a poor choice based on the fact that I have fairly large static res. I can soak up a number of wounds and put out enough attacks that a few should get through the 2++ from such items. I can also attempt to take a challenge with my ethereal mage/2+ AS BSB depending on the opponent. I don't really see this as an issue.

SpellArcher wrote:
I'm sure that with Withering the RBT will start to make their presence felt!

Yeah I hope so too. My ideal spell selection would be Miasma, Pit, Okkams, Withering and Enfeebling. This was a rare game when I didn't get what I wanted! Getting this spell selection is great for both my shooting and anti-magic ability. High cost remains in play spells really take their toll and allow me to dominate both mine and my opponents magic phases. I have had magic phases where I have debuffed T and in obviously makes my shooting more dangerous (especially my lowly archers).

Caradryal wrote:
I'm intrigued to see how the 3 rbt's play out as they will generally be left quite vulnerable. This is probably the only change i would make to the list and maybe add another hammer unit

High Elf warmachines are actually uniquely resilient to most warmachine hunters. Initially RBTs have a fairly high toughness against shooting and being a warmachine have benefits in CC with the number of attacking models allowed. Your standard Elf is no pushover with ASF and this actually means that things like Eagles, and in this game the SabreTusks are not a cause for concern (other than losing a turn of shooting maybe). As we played this game out he actually charged my RBTs with his cats and did not do any damage with either of them. I eventually killed the cats after a couple of rounds so he didn't get any points but did tie up the machines. In this case I was more concerned with trying to whittle down his main combat forces before they got too close rather than taking out the chaff at the start.

Having said this you do raise an interesting point. I took the RBTs for some ranged capability but they also represent relatively 'easier' points for my opponent - especially ones with artillery of their own. As I said in the report the jury is out on this one at the moment and I too am interested in how this goes. I did try a list the same as this but instead of the RBTs & SM I had a large block of PG. The result was a decent anvil and nothing else. I never got good usage out of them in combination with the WLs. My initial thoughts on why this happened was that I could not buff both my PG/spears at the same time so one unit was left fairly useless and that with several large frontage units, movement & flexibility became a big problem. I imagine if the RBTs don't work out for me I'd change and go to something like another 30 WLs if I took this approach again. They don't need buffs as much and are pretty deadly. At $40 for 10 though I also have to think about my back pocket!

Caradryal wrote:
In turn 2 he could've blocked your spearelves with a sabertusk while his guts slew the eagle. This wouldve almost certainly bought them into a makeable charge range for his turn 3. The tusk on the right couldve blocked your lions for a turn while he other tusk looped behind the guts to hamper the lions again. This way the ogres could moved up to threaten your centre. What would you have done in this case?

I agree with this. I think he should've charged the eagle in which case he would've overrun towards my artillery. He would've killed it and could then move towards my WL to help out his smaller ogre unit. Doing so would've given me some real problems as he would've moved his force away from my spears and isolated my army one unit at a time. This game was a bit odd though in that he managed to get all eagles with his cannon so quickly. I would've expected them to last maybe a turn more - he killed all of them with a single cannon shot each time - and I would have had more control over his movement.

Caradryal wrote:
A Great game and I look forward to seeing how your army fares when the game lasts 6 turns! :D

Me too! Although I really think this Ogre list can be problematic things just went my way here and it wasn't that good of a test of my list/generalship. Bring on a tough 6 rounder!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:10 am 
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Hey John!

Glad to see you decided to start up a blog! Definitely an interesting list. I'll start with a few comments on the list, then the game

The List

The lack of magical attacks will definitely be felt, but I think more important than those is the lack of a magic missile. I found this to be true for myself when I ran my list with Shadow way back, and I'm positive it will hold true for you; Skirmishers will be an absolute nightmare. The Lore of Shadow has a ton of abilities that make you hit harder, but nothing that helps you hit more often (with the exception of miasma in close combat). This is problematic because your key firing base has a total of 6 wounds. Chameleon skinks, for example, would make short work of them.

I feel strongly that a good change would be to fit in the ruby ring of ruin on that second mage, upping his overall utility. This opens up some interesting magic phase strategies too - say a big spell draws out his dispel mechanisms, you could potentially finish off your phase with a shield on a 4+, Ring on a 3+ and Miasma on a 3+. Not bad for 3D6!

I also think you can save 30 points for the command on the swordmasters. The musician is debatable, but the standard and champ are definitely superfluous in my opinion.

I think the biggest threat to a list like this is people who can successfully save their scrolls for the turn when you *need* that mindrazor to win combat with the spears. I guess that's my main gripe with Shadow is that there's no mystery to what you're trying to accomplish - 50 spears, marching up the field, any opponent knows exactly what happens when they engage. If you miss that critical mindrazor, you've got two rounds of unsupported combat, which versus many units out there is going to be enough to take these guys out of business. The frontage of a huge horde like that is enough for an opponent to get in a staggering amount of hitting power.

My focus would be on using the swordmasters in a support role for the spears to help generate kills in the eventuality of a failure to achieve magical support. I might even split the unit to 2 x 7 strong units just to be sure that something could be there when I need it.

The Game

This is some harsh terrain, particularly for a wide army like yours. So many obstacles and that river! I think deployment went fairly well all things considered.

Is it just me, or did your opponent invent his dispel scroll in turn 2? Hellheart fills the slot on the butcher, and the slaughtermaster looks tooled out to me. If so, you got robbed of a nuke!

What was the second rule on the Maneaters? Scouts & ?

Turn 2 illustrates my one big fear for this list well; In this turn, you're basically going all in on mindrazor. Had that butcher been nearby to use his hellheart (which by rights he should have been), this turn would have gone from a crushing victory to a catastrophe - my math with no razor has you doing around 9 wounds and him doing 18. The next turn, your unbuffed spears are unfortunately going to get plastered by that ironblaster and friends. At this point you lose both your general and BSB in one fell swoop.

Not to be a doomsayer or anything; the more you know about the vulnerabilities of a list, the better equipped you are to avoiding those situations.

Enjoyed the report! Keep 'em coming!

D

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Thanks for the comments Brewmaster, I've tried to address them here:
Brewmaster_D wrote:
I feel strongly that a good change would be to fit in the ruby ring of ruin on that second mage, upping his overall utility.

This is a good idea and one that I like. I'm thinking of dropping the command on the SM as you suggest and using the spare points to do this and get the Amulet of Light if I drop one of the other SM too. I am currently of the thinking that while useful, the SM aren't critical in this list and do represent easy points for my opponents missile fire. If I need points, they are going to come out of here.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I think the biggest threat to a list like this is people who can successfully save their scrolls for the turn when you *need* that mindrazor to win combat with the spears

This is very true and is an issue. I am hoping that I either hit IF or have forced my opponent's hand early with a scroll. In this case my opponent used his scroll earlier as Pit would have devastated his expensive units of Ogres. Against an opponent such as DE however, when they can afford to take a Pit it becomes a problem as they can save a scroll.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I might even split the unit to 2 x 7 strong units

To fit in the new items I think I have to reduce the unit to 13 strong and splitting it means that I also suffer from an extra drop. I'm not sure I want to do this yet. When I get round to doing a small rewrite for this list and my next game on Thursday, I'll have to do something here. Watch this space...

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Is it just me, or did your opponent invent his dispel scroll in turn 2

He actually didn't. I got his list slightly wrong (and I've changed it now). His Slaughtermaster had the scroll, Fencers blades and Fist which also gives him the ward save. My mistake. He wasn't cheating, my record keeping/memory was just suspect.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
What was the second rule on the Maneaters? Scouts & ?

I'm not sure, I'll find out on Thursday this week and report back...

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Turn 2 illustrates my one big fear for this list well

I agree. This was a very aggressive all or nothing move on my part. However, I don't think I had any other choice and had to seize the opportunity. This is definitely the vulnerability of this list. My spears need magical help and a good opponent will take advantage of that fact. I have to play such that he can't do that. If I play more defensively and hold the spears while pushing up with the WL this becomes less of an issue as my opponent has to move to me, in this case though I had to take the fight forwards and go for it!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:23 pm 
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King of the Hill
So me and my buddies thought up an interesting and fun mini-game. King of the Hill. The rules are as follows. The game is played on a 4’x4’ board with a hill in the middle. Each player gets 600pts to spend on a single unit of his choice with the usual restrictions on number of models (if applicable), allowance for banners/items on a champ, etc. The name of the game is to control the central hill and to encourage people to go for it, any unit on the hill gets +1S and +1T.

We have played 4 times and I have won ¾ games with (35) WLs! I took simply a bog standard unit with command. They have trounced all types of Ogres, Grail Knights, Chaos Knights, Flagellants and Demigryphon Knights so far. The only loss came against a unit of Ogre Maneaters who managed 12 impact hits followed by 11W from their breath weapon banner. I then failed a stubborn Ld check. Lol.

I would really recommend you try this game! It’s a lot of fun and only takes 15mins or so to play out.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:37 pm 
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aka; "build your own deathstar and then roll some dice" ?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:19 am 
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de kaasboer wrote:
aka; "build your own deathstar and then roll some dice" ?

Yeah pretty much. But it's fun and goes to show how good WLs are.

List Update
Following some decent advice from you guys (thanks!) I have made a few changes to the list. I have dropped 2 SMs and the unit champion and added the Amulet of Light to my WL Guardian and the Ruby Ring of Ruin to the level 1 mage. As people commented this allows me to better deal with ethereals, etc and gives the second mage a lot more utility whilst sacrificing very little.

I have a game coming up on Thursday - probably against the new Empire so watch this space...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:20 am 
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Game Against New Empire 4/19/12

So I did play a game against Empire but it was pretty uninspiring. It was a really close (read boring) game and went on to finish with me getting 300pts and him getting 500pts of my stuff. I failed every charge I tried over the entire game and he fled A LOT. The new Demigryphs did not see CC either due to being blocked by my WLs - a unit capable of beating them whether they get the charge or not. It came down to him being able to destroy my Sword Masters and RBTs and me killing his Hurricanium and a couple of mounted Captains. I decided not to do a BatRep as it was not a great game. I did learn some stuff however...

1. RBTs and SMs represent 'easy' points for my opponent - these are what always gets killed and get me in trouble VP wise.
2. The RBTs got me almost all my points this game.
3. With only two real, combat effective units (WLs and Spears) I have very little flexibility. A good opponent cuts one of these units off and works on destroying the other.

I am contemplating a major list change but will be playing a few more games with my current set up. The issues I have with the list as it stands are those above and, the next tournament I will be at puts a cap of 450pts on units. This means that 30WLs and 50Spears are out.

Also, me opponent said he intends to change his list to being all cav. and include 2 Steamtanks! He did not have the units to do this against me but it would present a tough list to crack - all that high T. and AS!


Last edited by John Rainbow on Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:12 am 
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2500pts v. Ogre Kingdoms
I played the same Ogre player as in my last BatRep again today. We had both modified our lists slightly. For myself I had included the Am.Light and Ring of Ruin for all comers. My opponent had changed his list so the max. unit size was 450pts - a limitation in an upcoming tournament we are both attending. I did not know what I would be facing, only that the big units from before would be gone!

My list:
Archmage(4) [Shadow] + wand, robes, 4++
Mage(1) [High] + scroll, ruby ring of ruin
Noble BSB + GW, armour of caledor, 5++

50 SpearElves (horde) + command, flaming banner
12 Archers + musician & standard

30 White Lions (horde) + command, banner of sorcery, am.light
12 Sword Masters + banner & mus

3 x Great Eagle
3 x RBT

Ogre list: (not entirely sure on some equipment)
Slaughter Master (level 4 - Maw) + greedy fist, fencers blades, scroll
Butcher (level 2 - beasts)
BSB

8 Ironguts + GW, +1Ld banner
8 Ogres + sword & board
5 Lead Belchers

Ironblaster
Thundertusk
6 Man Eaters + pistols, reroll 1s banner, scouting and swiftstride
3 SabreTusks

Spells:
I got Miasma, Withering, Enfeebling, Pit & Okkams along with the usual Shield & Drain. The ogres got Wyssans, Transformation and Trollguts, the Maw, Spinemarrow and something else.

Deployment
Image
He went first and chose the side of the board away from most of the hills & rocks. We each traded chaff to start with and I had to put down the first unit of note - my archers which I placed centrally. I was fairly happy with how deployment went. I instantly imagined my Spear Elves flanking his army on the right while the WLs in my center held the line. Would this be the case though? The scouting Man Eaters on my left might have something to say about it! After rolling off, I got first turn even though he had a +1 and elected to take it.

Question: How do scouts factor in the deployment roll off and who gets the +1? It is not clear at all in the BRB.

HE Turn 1
Image
To the right my forces moved forward whilst I refused the left flank. I attempted to hide the Eagle on the left behind the rocks and moved the others up to be of more use in later turns. I realised he did not have any magic missiles from spells or from his unit abilities so made a guess that he didn't have an item that could really hurt my Archmage at range either (the Maw is not that bad of a spell). Thus my level 4 moved up closer to his units and in range for Pit. Movement was swift so we moved onto magic which ended up 11v4 in my favour.

I opened up with a 4 dice IF Pit (good job I moved :D ) and sunk 2 Ironguts. This did cause 1W on my mage and lose me 3 dice though... After this I managed a fireball on 1 dice but not much else. This did a single wound to the Lead Belchers staring at my spears.

Shooting was pretty good and another 2 Ironguts bought it from my combined firepower. There were only 4 of them left now!

Ogre Kingdoms Turn 1
Image
My opponent moved up across the board in opposition to me and the arrangement became something like that of a 'Meeting Engagement' with the river separating our forces.

Magic was 9v6 and the Ogres let loose 'the Maw' on my mage. A decent total of 23 saw me fail to dispel - using all my 6d and I ended up taking a wound on my Archmage. So much for being invulnerable at range... I was beginning to regret moving him out of his bunker.

The Ogres shooting took down an Eagle with cannon fire and 2 Sword Masters with the ThunderTusk stone thrower. I had failed to get my eagle out of sight of the laser guided missiles the Iron Blaster fires.

High Elves Turn 2
Image
My Spears and WLs continued to advance while my SM moved to protect my RBT battery from the Man Eaters moving down my left flank. I reasoned that after a turn of blasting them with fire/magic they would be easy prey for my SMs.

Magic was 11v7 and started with a casting of Pit on the Man Eaters on 21. This drew a scroll and he all but shut down my phase afterwards. An IF dispel took out Withering and I was left having to satisfy myself with Miasma'ing the Man Eaters (all stats by 2).

Great shooting made up for a slow magic phase and I took down 3 Man Eaters with combined fire.

Ogres Turn 2
Image
Both the Man Eaters and one of the Cats failed charges into the RBT and Archmage respectively (I think I forgot the SabreTusk charged when I did the diagrams). In the center the main Ogre force inched forward and on the right a cat moved to block my Spearmen. Things were pretty cagey at this point though I seemed to have the upper hand in the ranged battle.

Magic was 8v4 and came to nothing after failed casts and dispels.

In the shooting phase 4 spears fell to Lead Belcher shots and the left most RBT took 2W from the Iron(read Laser?)blaster.

High Elves Turn 3
Image
Things weren't looking too bad for the High Elves as they stood. Provided I could take out the Man Eaters I felt pretty good about taking on the central Ogre forces. To this end I charged with the SM --> Man Eaters and Spears --> SabreTusk. The measured range for the SM was 11 and they failed only needing to roll 6 on two dice :( . This did allow me to move them forward however and I thought I had placed them such that he could not get to my RBT without engaging them as well if he charged the Man Eaters. In the middle of the field I moved an eagle up to block the central Ogre units for a turn.

Magic was 8v5 and my initial cast of... you guessed it... Pit of Shades was dispelled with a good roll. I then managed to get off Shield on my Spears but failed to Wither the Man Eaters using 3d.

Shooting again took it's toll and by the end there was one less Man Eater and 2 fewer Ogres.

In CC I realised my opponent had made a good move and with my wheel it was impossible not to have my mage engaged by his cat. Fortunately I managed a single wound on the cat which was enough to send it scurrying. I could only attempt to reform in victory though as any other move would've meant taking the Lead Belchers to the flank.

Ogre Turn 3
Image
The Ogres declared a charge against my central Eagle and I made my first mistake. I had a lapse in sanity and fled. This meant my eagle moved away from his Ironguts and closer to his Ogre unit and characters who could then declare on it. The dice were in my favour though and I got away while he rolled poorly for pursuit. I got away with this one! If he'd have made it into B2B and then overrun into my WL with the Thundertusk in tow I would've got crushed. Instead the Ogres ended up milling about in the middle of the park while the Man Eaters made for my left most RBT. I'd hoped to block the RBT with my SM but he managed to wheel past (just) and get the RBT only in CC.

Magic was 7v6 and kicked off with a boosted Trollguts (regen) on 23. I then failed the dispel on 6d when I needed to roll less than average. I did think about using the scroll at this point but his the units that got regen weren't in my sights for next turn. I planned to hold out and try to deal with the Man Eaters and Lead Belchers first.

3 Spearmen died to shooting whilst the cannon misfired (yay!).

In CC the Man Eaters butchered the first RBT but did not overrun far enough to catch the next one.

High Elf Turn 4
Image
My spears charged the Lead Belchers who decided discretion was the better part of valour and fled. Elsewhere I steadied the line and moved my remaining Eagle up to block. The SM moved around behind the Man Eaters after reforming. This move was two-fold. Firstly they could potentially charge the Man Eaters in the back and secondly, they also threatened his Ogre unit if they pushed forward.

Magic was 12v6 and saw 2 Ogres pitted and Withering go off on the Man Eaters. By the end of shooting 1 Man Eater was left with 1W! I really wanted them dead, even a single Man Eater running round the back field would cause me trouble.

Ogre Turn 4
Image
The Ironguts charged the Eagle and his Ogres + heroes charged the archers who fled. They then redirected into the RBT along with the remaining Man Eater. I had seen this coming somewhat but had thought he might have gone for the kill and tried to take out my WL to get some serious points. I had thought his ThunderTusk would've helped him in this as it gives out ASL within 6". Either way, I couldn't do anything about it due to the static nature of the RBTs and things were starting to swing in the Ogres favour. The Lead Belchers rallied.

Magic was a damp squib after I pulled my scroll. In CC there were no surprises as the RBT got mulched on impact hits before combat even began. He reformed his Ogres conga style to face my SM and the Man Eater overran into the next RBT.

High Elf Turn 5
Image
It was looking bad and I knew I needed some points to salvage anything! He had destroyed my artillery (expensive) and whilst I had shot his units to bits, the units had not been totally destroyed. To this end my spears declared on the Lead Bleachers who then fled the board and my SM moved out the charge arc of his hero Ogre unit - they couldn't take them alone and I needed some VP. My archers rallied on the board edge.

The winds of magic came in at 7v4 and I got off both Pit and Enfeebling. The Ogre unit was reduced to just a standard bearer and 3 characters whilst the Man Eater was now str3 and T1! Both the Irongut unit and the Man Eaters were down to the last man and came in at over 400 points each - enough to swing the game back my way.

My RBT had a decent chance in CC with his Man Eater had been reduced to T1 and Str3 by my remains in play spells. He saved both my wounding hits on his 5+ armour though... In return the RBT got smashed and naturally, this panicked my archers who ran off the board. It was over for me.

Ogre Turn 5
Image
The game was done but we played out this turn. To add insult to injury his Thunder Tusk destroyed my SM on the charge after taking 2W. There was no way I could pick up any points. This was annoying as I had seriously reduced his forces - there were only 10 Ogres total left on the board! But, critically I had not finished off any units.

Results
Defeat. The Ogres killed around 750 points whilst I got around 250 (I think). I was fairly disappointed with this result, especially after my early dominance and getting in some decent rounds of shooting. His main units had almost nothing left by the end but I hadn't killed them off completely.

Discussion
So, I lost but it was close and could have gone the other way. If I'd taken the last Man Eater and got the 430pts for that unit or the last Irongut it would've been a totally different story. Also, after the game we realised that ThunderTusks don't do impact hits so he also would not have killed my SM in T5. You live and learn I guess. I also should not have put myself in a position to get defeated either.

So where did it go wrong? At first I was happy with my deployment, but, looking back it might not have been great in some regards. My mage being with the spears seemed a logical choice but actually, it would have been better to have him in the midfield where his 3+ bound fireball could have finished off one of those units I nearly destroyed. The positioning of my RBTs also made it easy for the Man Eaters to steam roll along the lines and overrun into each of them in turn. These should probably be staggered in the future - it's not like range is really a problem!

I got lucky in turn 3 with my eagle fleeing. This could have gone really badly if he caught me. By charging with the Guts first he forced me into midfield where I was in charge range of both the Ogres + heroes and his ThunderTusk (which deals out ASL within 6"). Luckily I got away and he rolled low but a bad roll from me would have meant his main combat unit and heroes would overrun into my WL and more than likely cream them - probably after taking a fair amount of damage. I have a question here regarding my midfield play. Obviously moving up the eagle to protect my WLs flank was a good idea but should I have charged in? I would have done some decent casualties as I would still hit most of the Ogre unit on 3s (Ogre boss has ws 10 though!) and wound on 2's. Crucially I would get no re-rolls but would be stubborn. I figure I would destroy the Ogre unit but it would be pretty close on combat res after he got to swing back with all those characters. His turn would then not be pleasant for me with the counter charges. Looking back I don't think it would have been a good move and highlights the problem with having two combat units that in this case could not support each other. In fact sending my spearmen round the flank may have been a bad decision all around. With my superior shooting I could have stood my ground and let the Ogres come to me. My units would then have been closer together and better able to help each other out.

In a similar manner to my narrow midweek loss against the Empire my opponent did a similar trick and took out all my RBTs and Archers - the 'soft' units. This is becoming a real problem and if I want to continue with this list I need to better protect my shooters. I'm not sure about what changes I would make though as in both my recent games, the RBTs have served me well and won most of my points. I have another game scheduled this week (maybe two) so I'll definitely use this list again before making any further decisions with regards to list changes.


Last edited by John Rainbow on Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:47 pm 
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I'll make a more in-depth analysis later, for now I just want to point out a few things:
- Your list is very straight-forward. While this might be obvious and what you're aiming for, it also means you could struggle against hard counters since you lack the versatility to deal with it. For example, if armies with lots of chaff get to dictate their battles and neutralize your magic, you're in big trouble. I also believe Dwarfs will give you sort of a hard time.
- Your rare setup most certainly is unconventional. I wonder if you wouldn't be better served with a more Furion-ish setup with a stronger focus on shooting since you seem to like your RBTs. Speaking of which, they only have 2W now - an implicit nerf with the introduction of the 8th edition rules.
- Some more structure in the first couple of posts will make this blog way easier on the eyes / mind once these pages start adding up :) Make sure you get it in place before it feels like it's gotten out of hand!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:42 am 
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2500pts v. Bretonnians
I played a good friend of mine last night, it's always a fun game and this one was no different. He is also looking for any comments about his list/play so please include any thoughts about the Brets if you post & have any.

My list:
Archmage(4) [Shadow] + wand, robes, 4++
Mage(1) [High] + scroll, ruby ring of ruin
Noble BSB + GW, armour of caledor, 5++

50 SpearElves (horde) + command, flaming banner
12 Archers + musician & standard

30 White Lions (horde) + command, banner of sorcery, am.light
12 Sword Masters + banner & mus

3 x Great Eagle
3 x RBT

Bretonnians:
Lord + Virtues of Heroism & grail, +3A sword, cuirass of fortune, shield
Prophetess(4)[Life] + verdant heart
Damsel(2)[Life] + dispel scroll
BSB Paladin + virtue duty, enchanted shield

11 Grail Knights + command, banner swiftness
10 Knights of the Realm + command
12 Knights of the Realm + command
9 Knights of the Realm + command

14 Longbowmen + mus
14 Longbowmen + mus
14 Longbowmen + mus

Trebuchet
Trebuchet

Note that all characters were mounted on barded steeds as per the usual Bret cav. army rules. The Lord, Prophetess, Damsel and BSB are the units L, P, D & BSB in the pics below.

For spells I rolled Miasma, Enfeebling Foe, Withering, Pendulum & Okkams for the level 4 and Drain and Shield for the level 2. His level 4 got Throne, Flesh, Dwellers and Regrowth while his level 2 opted for Awakening and Earthblood.

Deployment
Image
In deployment I dropped chaff whilst he dropped archers to counter each Eagle drop. I opted for a refused flank on the right and deployed my spears in front of my RBTs on the left. I have started placing my WLs toward my center and did the same this game. I have found that placing them out on the flank often results in them getting held up out there and unable to influence the game. By placing them more centrally their threat range is used more efficiently (they can act both left and right as opposed to a single side when on the flank) and they have a greater chance of getting in the game! I was reasonably happy with my deployment.

High Elf 1
Image
The eagles moved up and remained behind cover to avoid the Bretonnian longbowmen. Elsewhere I stayed put to avoid moving into bow range of his archers and to keep a distance between my troops and his knights - he needed to come to me to win this one!

Magic was 9v3 and I lead with Enfeebling on his Grail Knights. This produced the desired result of sapping his dispel dice although he did get rid of the spell. I followed up with Withering on his Lord + Knights and shielded my WLs. Finally his Grail Knights had their movement reduced by 1 by Miasma.

For shooting the RBTs whiffed but my bowmen took out two knights from the central damsel bunker unit.

Bretonnian 1
Image
My opponents knights moved up across the board but stayed a healthy distance away to avoid being charged and losing their lance bonus.

In the magic phase John called '12' and promptly rolled boxcars! With the dice 12v6 he started off by dispelling withering on 4d and followed up with throne which I dispelled with 5d. He then failed Dwellers on my WLs.

For shooting he had line of sight from about 5 of his right-most bowmen to my eagle hiding behind the rocks. I knew this would happen but had wanted the eagle to charge and needed to leave some LoS. Fortunately no wounds were caused. Similarly his trebuchets scattered away from their intended targets.

High Elf 2
Image
I declared charges with both my Eagles on his bowmen. At the time I considered this a good idea as they would be both hitting and wounding on 5s. After I failed both charges (needing 8 & 9) I realised the eagles were both dead next turn and was ruing my decision. I had just given up 100 easy points. On my right flank the eagle moved to block his Grail Knights and my WLs turned to face his units.

I tried calling '12' this time and got 11 dice. With the banner this meant I had 12v7 dice. I enfeebled his lord bunker (-3S) and followed this with a 4d withering which was dispelled. Miasma went off on 2d and reduced his movement by 1 and I managed to shield my WLs again. I failed my bound 3+ fireball.

My RBT crew had obviously needed a turn to get their 'eye in' and this turn managed to take down 4 of the central knights and and 1 of the lord's guard.

Bretonnian 2
Image
Has anyone seen Monty Python's Holy Grail? What did the knights do? "Runaway!" John's knights on his right turned tail and fled.

Magic was 11v7 and the phase started with a 3d dispel on enfeebling which probably wasn't John's best choice as it wasn't currently a big problem for him and I might end up casting it elsewhere later. Either way, this was good for me! He got throne but with only 4d left afterwards I let it go and shut down the rest of his phase.

As expected both charging eagles died in the shooting phase.

High Elf 3
Image
My spears and lions moved up and the remaining eagle made to block his knight buses in the corner and pin them in place to be destroyed! I realised after movement that I should probably have turned my WL toward the Grail Knights slightly in order to keep both them and the Lord's bus in their charge arc if they moved, but we live and learn I guess!

Magic was 10v3 and came to nothing... Onto shooting then! My RBTs let rip on the incoming knights on my right flank and killed enough to rout them! ("When Danger reared its ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled").

Bretonnian 3
Image
In the center his knights and damsel charged into my archers. I'm not sure if this was a good decision with the unit being reduced in size and carrying a character -comments? In the North West my eagle had done it's job and the Grail Knights were stuck in the corner. They opted to turn around and face their fate while the lord galloped his knights around the rear of the army to reposition his forces. The prophetess moved into the lords unit.The knights on my right rallied.

Magic was 12v7 after John again rolled boxcars :roll: . I started by dispelling the RiP Throne which I had forgotten (oops!) on 2d and then dispelling throne again on 3d. I then also managed to dispel a low casting roll earthblood with my 2d. John took advantage of his remaining dice to improve the toughness of his Grail Knights (flesh to stone) and regrew 1 knight in the Lord's bodyguard.

Meanwhile, his bowmen had turned to face my eagle and it was pincushioned. In CC my archers were cut down as they fled and his knights overran to the board edge.

High Elf 4
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My WLs charged his bowmen to attempt an overrun into the lords unit but they wisely fled the field and left the WLs on the edge of the wood. My spearmen reformed 5-wide to face his Grail Knights, and my SMs & level 2 turned to face the knights on the board edge.

The winds were 10v4 and I opened with a fireball on 1d, it went off and caused a wound on the board edge knights who promptly panicked and ran off the board! Elsewhere Okkams was scrolled :( which meant the rest of my phase was easy to control.

Shooting was a fail phase.

Bretonnian 4
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The Grail Knights declared a charge on my spears. This was not a sensible move but was the only real option for them - it was charge or be charged and lose lances. On the Bretonnian left, most of the archers and knights moved up toward their High Elf foes.

Magic was boxcars again... An IF throne on 4d followed by a failed dwellers (6d) put paid to anything useful coming out of the phase for the Brets though.

The trebuchets finally found their mark this turn and knocked over 8 WLs (not shown on the pic - sorry!). In CC the Grail Knights killed 12 spears while I took out 2 knights in return. The spears held on steadfast and the knights reformed to 1 wide to maximise their attacks (a good move? I guess they were dead either way). I was confident I would win this fight... eventually...

High Elf 5
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The WLs were currently in the middle of no and where - they needed to move. To this end I reformed them 3 wide and moved into the forest for protection from shooting and to get some knights in my threat range! My SMs ran from the incoming knights on my right while my mages moved to make better use of their spells.

Magic was a decent 10v5 and I knew John expected me to cast Okkams on my spears. I used this against him here as I knew my spears didn't need it. With so many ranks and backed by the BSB his Grail Knights would eventually fall and the longer it took, the better for my spears who were, by now, out of the fight but still in trebuchet range. I got shield (2d) and withering (3d) up on this combat before John realised I was not about to cast Okkams and used his dice (2v2) to dispel enfeebling foe. A 1d fireball rounded out the phase by killing a single knight.

I again fluffed shooting...

In CC I killed two knights to his 4 spears and he held when needing a 6.

Bretonnian 5
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By this point John was starting to realise he would need to act soon to recover some points. He moved up across the board. Magic was 8v5 and I dispelled an RiP throne on 2d at the beginning. I then failed a 3d dispel of flesh cast on 3d. An IF throne then took down 7WLs and he lost a wound to the miscast... Combined shooting took out a further 8WLs but they passed their break check each time. There were only 9 of them left now and it was looking like John had a chance of getting some points back!

In CC I killed 3 knights while he killed 3 spears. Again the Grail Knights passed leadership on a 4.

High Elf 6
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Turn 6 was upon me and, if I could prevent John killing too much, a minor victory would be mine. My SMs continued running away from the Knights to the right and the WLs went conga line in the woods facing the Lord and his retinue.

Magic was 11v5 and all I cared about was trying to protect my units! I managed to enfeeble his lord and retinue, shield my WL and fireball one of the knights off the board.

With so many knights breathing down my neck so close to the end of the game I could really have done with some decent shooting but, again, it was fluffed. That unit of knights on the right had survived at least 36 bolts coming their way (and the rest!).

In CC my spears finally broke his Grail Knights and they fled the board. I had only managed to kill one of them after causing 15 wounds though!

Bretonnian 6
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The Lord and unit charged my WL through the woods. I had a difficult choice here, fleeing and rolling 7 would have meant he needed a 10 on his 3d to get into B2B - not likely. I wasn't sure what to do and in the end opted to stay and 'trust the conga'. I planned to challenge and I'm not sure if he could refuse with his lord - virtues and all that? No difficult terrain checks were failed at all by the unit as they charged. The knights on my right flank also charged and made it into B2B with my RBT. It was doomed.

Magic was unkind to the Brets with the winds waxing and coming up 5v4 in his favour. I finally used my scroll and dispelled flesh to stone to end the phase.

Annoyingly his trebuchets managed to kill all my remaining SMs and netted him a neat 198pts.

In CC my RBT died as predicted and I challenged with my WL champ. No wounds were caused so we finished up and totted up the points scores...

Results
John had got 595pts while I scored 932pts. A victory to the High Elves!

So discussion... I think I did reasonably well here but definitely made a mistake with my eagles early on. As I mentioned I also made a small error in placing my WLs when they could have been turned slightly to make more use of their charge arc and threat range. I think I was helped more by John's mistakes in deployment more than anything though. Putting his two main combat units against my main two was never a good idea. It would've been better to place them on the other flank or more centrally to try and crush my weaker flank. By deploying against my spears, my WL were able to cover them and meant that combat would never be in his favour on this side of the board. This placement then made it easy for me to get some points and deny him many.

How did I feel the army performed? The WLs again stole the show, they didn't kill anything at all but crucially, they didn't die or flee - stubborn is great! and the threat they represented forced my opponent to do something very un-heroic and run back to his board edge. Fireball came in real handy here in causing the Damsel and knights to flee. Thanks for getting me to use this SpellArcher. My RBTs didn't really perform here against an opponent they are designed for and obviously my archers were almost useless against a 2+.

As in previous games, my big units again proved tough to get the points from but the 800 or so points of squishy stuff I have (eagles, RBTs, archers, SMs) are again costing me as they are what a decent opponent goes after first. As some people have commented, relying on Okkams for my spears is good until it gets dispelled - as happened here. I am definitely too reliant on my magic phase to help the spears out in CC.

This list evolved from one which was much more diverse and ended up being beaten (a lot). It caused me to reduce the number of units and increase the size of those that remained. The list at this time included a large unit of PG and almost no ranged ability. I found that the PG never really achieved much so they went in favour of the ranged threat offered by the RBTs. Now I have a different issue in that I have 800pts that are easy to take and the rest is relatively solid/tough to kill but easily avoided. As some of you have suggested, my current list is somewhat effective, but, very straight forward - you know where the threats are. Quite often I find my opponents not willing to engage me because of the size of my infantry blocks. This is great in a sense but it always leads to games that are won/lost by very few points as was the case here and in my last games against Empire/Ogres. Having said this, I have had a lot of fun with this list and have learned a lot too. As a relatively new player I think this list benefited my play but it might be time now to move on and try to tackle something more complex.

So, it has been coming for a while but I am going to change my list. I think I have talked about going to the Crossroads GT in September and I need to get list testing before then. I also have a small, friendly tournament at a local shop coming up and there are usual a few decent gamers and power gamers who show. All I know for sure is that 450pts (max. unit size for tourney) will be going into a unit of WLs! I'm also contemplating a dragon list...


Last edited by John Rainbow on Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:34 am 
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Hey John!

Looking at the match, clearly the thing that hurt your opponent the most was his deployment. Having a unit so far out on the flank like that is just a recipe for disaster. I think this is going to be the most critical area if he's looking to improve.

With regards to your list/playing - I think High Elves turn 2 really highlights two things. First, watch your eagle placements - this effectively allows him an overrun into your spears! Since he has another unit of knights there, he could have taken the game this turn. I'll try to explain.

First comes the magic phase - your opponent sees the combo charge and knows your list relies on magic to make that huge unit of spears functional. With this in mind, he whips out the scroll this turn and shuts down your phase.

In his turn, he declares two charges - first the grail knights into the eagle. If you flee with the eagle, he gets to redirect into your spears, and if you don't, the eagle is angled so that his overrun goes into the spears. His Knights of the Realm charge the spears which looks to be easily do-able. This means the combat happens on your turn regardless of what you choose. It'd look something like this:

Image

With swiftstride on the overrun, the only question mark is do the grail knights make their overrun. Given the position on the board, however, I'd definitely go for it. If he makes it, all of those knight attacks combined with the inability of the spears to wound them should break you in one turn and have them overrun into your firing base, potentially out of range of the lions.

At least this is what I would have done, given the board position. Running away surely didn't do him any favours :P

Moral of the story: angle that eagle the other way, and the point is moot :P

This is also an example of what I meant in my previous post that Shadow usually boils down to one relatively easily identifiable turn.

I'm excited to see what kind of tournament list you come up with!

D

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:41 pm 
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@ Brewmaster
Wow! The move you mentioned with the eagle is definitely something I didn't consider and should look for in the future. I'm not sure I this move would've been possible on th actual board when we played though. If it had happened it would probably have switched the way the game went!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Greetings High Elf Generals,

Nice report John-
I'm the somewhat sad Bretonnian general that Johnny the Rain happily beat the other night.

I appreciate the insights Brewmaster. This was definitely one of my top 5 regretted deployments. After switching from Chaos, I've come to enjoy my increased mobility, but I should have kept my heavy lances in the middle so I had many more potential moves early on; I seem to still be over or underestimating what my speed can do for me, but I should never again overcommit to a flank like that against two hordes :)

I felt I dug myself into a deep hole by turn two, and I like your combi charge suggestion- though John just confirmed via photographic evidence(!) that the overrun angle would have been extreme enough that my Grailies would have just halted at the flank of my own KotR unit. The odds of my Lord hammer breaking the spearmen steadfast (with BSB) solo was quite unlikely. After the fact and given my crappy deployment, I realized I probably should have just taken turn one to sweep out toward the middle with my hammer units and engage him piecemeal on his other flank while letting the ranged weapons clean up his footsloggers. It did feel also that once I dug in near John's WL and spearmen that he managed his magic particularly well, and his offensive dice pool with shadow is intimidating.

Which does lead me to my deployment Q's:

1) Do you think my central placement of trebs/archers was wise, or did I just deny potential placements for my hammer units of knights in the middle?

2) John's WL placement in the middle of his formation created a strong ballast since they're so effective against knights; has anyone seen preferred list attributes or tactics used by Brettonians? There is the obvious trebuchet/redirect/flank strategy, but the stubborn+BSB causes problems.

Thanks all!
~Brychanus


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:50 pm 
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I hadn't read your Ogre report before, so I just read two battles.

You ask about Scouts. By the BRB, Scouts are not special when it comes to the first turn roll, so if one side has scouts and the other doesn't, the scout side always loses the +1. It is a reason not to take scouts.

In the Ogre game, turn 3, you discuss his charging a fleeing Eagle and overruning into White Lions. That is not correct. If a charge catches a fleeing unit, the charges line up on the fleeing unit, remove it, and can test to reform. There is no overrun.


You seem to conclude from the Ogre game that you are placing your RBTs too far forward, but then you put them too far forward in the Bret game as well. Put them on the table edge!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:22 am 
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Hey Brychanus!

With that overrun, remember that you get to choose how your unit maximizes, giving you the opportunity to shift the whole unit left or right slightly, depending on what you need.

Regarding your questions:

Your archers are your best tool here for dealing with those repeaters. With only 2 wounds each, they're extremely vulnerable to small arms fire, so my focus here would have been taking them out. The maneuverability of your combat blocks gives you a bit more flexibility in terms of positioning - you can afford to have most of your firing base in the middle, and use the knights as a countercharge deterrant, similar to how the lions function. The one unit of knights, however, was way too far over, so instead of being useful as a countercharge mechanism, you instead forced the imperative on yourself to get things moving.

Regarding the white lions: wounds *must* be done to this unit before engaging. I'd be rocking two shots from those trebs at them each turn, 3+ AS be damned. Once it's down to 20 or so models, it's much more manageable for your knights, who with the blessing actually still have a decent save vs. them.

D

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:14 am 
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So thanks for the comments and a quick update: I played another game on Thursday against the same Bret player -there's only 4 regulars where I'm at: Empire, OK, Brets & me. I used a Dragon list similar to Curu's with multiple units. I won the game but tbh, I struggled coordinating lots of units at the same time and with my movement after 'Dragon fever set in for my opponent and myself. I've decided that for now, I'm going to lift my 450pt/unit restriction and see if I can get the hang of using a dragon list with some bigger blocks in there as well and then gradually introduce more units as I go on. Expect to see my new list up here at some point over the weekend... I might also put in a few pics of some of my army (painted units and WiP stuff).

edit: I also feel like I should give my characters some names...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:43 am 
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With the grail knights on the edge like that, can they do anything but move forwards or reform? Don't they have to make an impossible wheel off the table edge to charge anywhere but straight ahead?

@Rainbow, going back to your last Ogre game. In HE 3 I would have moved the SM right up into the maneater's faces and angled them to make certain an overrun will not allow them to hit the RBT. The ME will get impact hits if they charge, but will then probably die in CC. If they shoot you lose a few SM, but then have an easy charge next turn. If perchance the ME kill all the SM, they would be down to a few wounds and you would be able to easily finish them with ranged attacks.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:00 pm 
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I'm currently trying out a new dragon list borrowing some ideas from Curu (and others) but also trying to reduce the unit count and make it a bit more straight forward to start with. This is what I've come up with for now. I expect it to change over the next few weeks as I play some games with it and I'm still trying to figure out how to get the core set up I want whilst trying out some LSG.

Prince Alithir on Stardragon + GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec
Casyin, Noble BSB on eagle + S.Might, DA, shield, 6++, Helm Fortune
Eiltia, Level 2 High Mage + Annulian

36 LSG + command, shield, BoEF
12 Archers + mus

30 WLs + command, B.Swiftness, Am.Light
12 SMs + command, Skeinsliver

2 x Great Eagles

Total: 2500pts

BatReps/experience with this to follow along with some pics of the army so far.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Played against the new Empire last night. My list is in the post above while his list was something as follows:

Luthor Huss (mounted)
Archmage (4) [Heavens] + barded steed
2 Mounted Warrior Priests
2 Mounted Captains

10 Inner Circle Knights
10 Inner Circle Knights
5 Knights
5 Knights
5 Outriders

Steam Tank

3 Demigryphon Knights
3 Demigryphon Knights
3 Demigryphon Knights

This was a pretty tough list (literally - all that 1+ armour) and meant that my core choices would be more or less ineffective (S3 in CC or shooting). I was however hopeful that I could do some serious damage with my WLs and characters, assuming I could take care of the stank.

On turn 1 he took care of my Prince on Dragon by reducing each to single wound with just one lucky cannonball :( . However, I got off a decent charge with Casyin the flying BSB and pinned his center by getting into CC with a unit of Demigriffs + Priest on turn 2. I held in CC for a turn as I issued a challenge he couldn't refuse with only a single rank - he accepted with the unit champ. On his 2 he flank charged me for extra res as we were still in the challenge and I got lucky. I didn't suffer any wounds and caused two so I actually won CC!

This meant in T3 my WLs and SMs could join the fray and my Great Eagle moved to intercept his Stank and pin it in place. It only does damage in the empire turn so this was a good move for me to prevent it getting stuck in. Prince Alithir was hiding on the flank waiting for an opportune moment (only 1W left on him & dragon). So, my T3 it looked something like this:
Image
I was in line to deal out a stomping in CC and overrun with my units into his and cause some serious pain. His general's unit was threatened by my WL and I was generally in control here. When we got to CC I then promptly failed my re-rollable ld9 fear test with the WLs and wiffed my CC attacks. I won combat but only by 1 or 2. He therefore held and removed the few casualties he took in such a way that Huss got into base on his 3, pumped his steroids and destroyed me.

To put it mildly this was annoying. I was set to completely control the center of the board and instead ended up getting massacred when Huss joined in. A 1/36 chance screwed me. Raaaaaaargh!

Other than that, the list did pretty well. I was happy with having 2 eagles as the the BSB and dragon help out with their maneuverability so I don't miss the 3rd as much. Magic was fine dispelling as a level 3 and I had some real damage potential in several units. I'm still not sold on my core choices but this wasn't really a good test of the LSG or archers. S3 against 1+AS is never cool. In summary, I could definitely have won here (or at least out myself in a very commanding position) but the dice gods deserted me when I needed them most.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:10 am 
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Well played Sir
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Ye gads, that is a brutal looking Empire list, stupid armour and speed...

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Just an FYI that this blog is still running. The problem is that I'm going to be in an arm sling for the next 3 weeks (my right arm and I'm right handed too! :cry: ) so things will be pretty slow for a while. I can't play or paint!


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:06 am 
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With regards to the steam tank it is actually better for your eagle NOT to charge. To "hold" / "control" the steam tank. Just place your eagle exactly 1" from it. It therefore can only move forwards during it's movement phase.

As the steam tank has random movement it must
1) pivot on the spot in the direction he want to move
2) roll 3d6"
3) move in the number of inches for the 3d6.
Since his pivot will make him come within 1" of the eagle his choice is to stop there do nothing or move forward.

a) Your eagle gets hard cover from shooting
b) won't die to the steam tank in 1 round of combat.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:14 pm 
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pk-ng wrote:
With regards to the steam tank it is actually better for your eagle NOT to charge. To "hold" / "control" the steam tank. Just place your eagle exactly 1" from it. It therefore can only move forwards during it's movement phase.

Yeah, you have the right idea here. After this game I went and read the rules for the Steam Tank and Random Movement more thoroughly - I've not played against anyone using them before and have changed my tactics to deal with them (& other random movers). I agree that placing 1" away would limit their movement based on 'the 1" rule' but would also caution people that the Steam Tank could still charge the eagle. This means that placing the eagle on the correct side of the tank and with the correct facing is important. Note though, that the tank doesn't really put out any hurt in your turn. Only in the Empire turn. Thus if you charge the tank in your turn, you have a round of CC against it where you won't suffer any casualties.

Also, see this Q&A I posted here for more info. on Random Movement.
Link to Q&A


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