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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:37 am 
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I've a small 1 day tournament coming up using the swedish comp system and it caps the bonus(100vp per full point difference) for armies of 15 or higher at 15. I decided to give the following army a try after getting destroyed in my last tournament by a death slann. It scores an 11.1:
Quote:
Archmage, General, lvl4, Book of Hoeth, Lore of Death - 360 Pts.

Noble, GW, Dragon Armour, BSB, Std. of the World Dragon - 184 Pts.
Mage, The Amulet of Light, Scroll, Lore of Metal - 135 Pts.

30 Spearmen, M, S, C - 295 Pts.
17 Archers, M, S, Std. of Eternal Flame - 212 Pts.
10 Archers, M - 115 Pts.

22 Swordmasters of Hoeth, M, S, C, Talisman of Loec, Razor Standard - 415 Pts.
6 Dragon Princes of Caledor, M - 190 Pts.
6 Dragon Princes of Caledor, M - 190 Pts.

Great Eagle - 50 Pts.
Great Eagle - 50 Pts.
Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100 Pts.
Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100 Pts.

Total: 2396

The basic plan is to have the archers neutralize their shooting and/or cause panic tests with an IF doom and darkness. The BSB and archmage go together as there are no look out sirs for dwellers etc and the banner negates the misfire of purple sun. Ideally the swordmasters go 12 wide with the characters on each end and with soulblight should munch through just about everything. Even skaven dont like getting purple sun'd every turn and the death snipes can pick off easy points. I'm probably a bit too in love with the army to see any flaws so thats why I'm posting it here for you to tear it apart. :) .

I have a practice game against I think VC later today so I'll report back on how the army performed.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:48 pm 
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Hello!

My main worry would be one big war machine hit on your Sword Masters rips the heart out of your force... But I suppose the Eagles and Princes will be aiming to protect and distract?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:56 pm 
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Green Istari

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I take it the Death Attribute should make up for the lack of Banner of Sorcery?

I too am a bit worried that you only have one really scary unit. Your shooting phase is decent but I think the army might struggle to stop the Swordmasters being shot up, especially as they have no defensive buffs.

That said, you seem to have a very hard counter to the Gutstar and armour doesn't look like much of a problem either.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:00 pm 
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@Pacey-Milan
Yep a big hit on the sword masters will do a number on me but as they are never more than 2 deep a small template can kill max 8, i think it can be borne as war machines out fail initiative tests and I can always go 1 deep to reduce casualties to 4 per hit. Sword masters also lose less attacks from causalities due to 2A from the front rank. You are also correct that the eagles and cav will be running to to warmachines at full tilt :) .

@SpellArcher
Spot on with the lore attribute, the banner is -50/-60 when taken with the book and its not worth that many negatives. As for only having one combat unit, you'd be surprised at what spears can do against a soulblighted enemy and with doom and darkness the dragon princes can break units on the charge as being steadfast with -3ld is not great odds. As for the sword masters see below(It went a bit longer than expected). As for the gutstar Ogres dont worry me uncomped as purple sun and pit are too common for them to do well, as for armour I'll take your word on it as I'm still not sure about it.

@On Swordmasters
Yes sword masters are the most vulnerable of our elite infantry but they are also the only ones with multiple attacks. With magic it is very easy to improve the quality of an attack(mindrazor,withering,soulblight,wildform) but there are only 2 spells that I know of to increase the number of attacks(timewarp,smiting) meaning quantity beats quality(and why dark elves are considered better than us). I found that once lions got below 25ish the simply dont have the damage output to kill enough to make a difference while sword masters are still devastating in units of less than 10. Obviously phoenix guard dont kill anything better than our spears and the ward rarely helps them win a combat against more killy foes. I guess in summary my policy is if its dead it cant hurt you.

@Quick-battle rep Vs VC
My army was as above exactly while his was
Killy vamp lord of net listing
lvl 1 necromancer death with cursed book
wight king with MR3
30+ grave guard with greatweapons deployed deep
40 skellies with full command and +1M banner
2x 25ish zombies
40 zombies
10 skellies in conga with a champ
7 wolves with champ
2 bastswarms
2 terrorghiests

Spells AM:0,3,4,6 M:1
Vamp Move,rerolls to wound, invocation, 2d6 s4 Lvl1 death: 0

Deployment
I got my bolt throwers on a hill with the flaming archers between them and swordmasters in front with archmage and bsb. spears and small archer unit with lvl 1 off to the right with the dragon princes, one on either flank and eagles slightly closer to centre. He had most of this blocks in the centre with all the characters in the skelly unit and the lvl1 necro in the scond rank. and the big flying beasts on the outside but within 12" of the general.

Turn 1
I move the sword masters foward long with the draogn princes on the right flank who threaten his wolves. I spirit leech 6 wounds off a leadership 4 terrorghiest but he makes 3/6 regen saves on 6+ :shock: . I misfire purple sun but thanks to the banner it does nothing. He flies one beast up the left and screams off 5/6 dragon princes while the centre beast sprints 20" and screams at the small archer unit for no damage. Meanwhile all his blocks push foward and he IFs a bubble move spell to get right up in my face.

Turn 2
The graveguard are facing off against the sword masters and I manage to just angle them so they are out of the arc of the successful terrorghiest. I charge an eagle in the batswarm and throw the other in front the vampire lord and his skelly bus. My spears charge a small zombie unit, while the mage makes a run for it on his own to the right(out of all arcs of sight) and the small archer unit retreats. The dragon princes come around the flank and threaten charges next turn. In the magic phase I double 6 purple sun and the archmage decides to jump down a hole but not before taking a sizable chunk of the vampire army with him.(It literally went across his entire battleline and killed a massive amount) With twelve dice and only plague of rust left, I end the magic phase with more dice than I started. The spears crumble the zombies and reform to face the front of the other much smaller zombie unit and the dogs. The eagle smacks the batswarms around and does max wounds for none in return leaving one swarm on 3 wounds.

In his turn the left terrorghiest who scared 5 dragon princes to death charges a bolt thrower while the other flanks the swordmasters(didnt see this one at all) and the grave guard go in the front(suits me fine). The lord's unit charges the eagle who jumped in their way and the dogs decide they dont fancy the spears and run past while the remnants of the zombie unit block the spears up. The skelatal conga line goes in front of the dragon princes with the champion at the front of course. The magic phase is 8 versus 6 and I let him have the withering on the eagle fighting the swarms for 1 dice(damn book) but he only drops it to t3. He then goes for a bubble van hels(12+) and rolls a 6 on 3 dice which ends the magic phase(I still had a scroll left anyway.). We agree the eagle versus his vampire just dies and the other eagle only does one wound for 1 in return meaning the batswarm survives. The terrorghiest versus the bolt thrower crew does no wounds but I lose combat anyway(charge) and run(and die but he cant overrun due to the new faq) panicking the flaming archer unit who stay on the table. The sword masters butcher the grave guard leaving only 6 to attack back who together with the terrorghiest manage 4 wounds after stomps. Both units explode into dust leaving me to reform to face the exposed flank of his vampire lords unit.(He badly underestimated the damage swordmasters could do and expected to win here or at least hold).

Turn 3
The swordsmaster and bsb go in against the flank of the lords unit while the lone dragon prince that lost most of his unit to the terroghiest, rear charges the beast looking for revenge(he was down top 3 wounds at this stage so if the knight lived the beast died (charge +rear)). the other dragon prince unit charged the conga and the spears charged the zombie unit, while the archers rallied. I dispelled withering during my magic phase and forgot entirely about my shooting phase. In combat the eagle cleared out the batswarms at last and the spears trounced the zombies. The dragon knights killed the champion but the horses fluffed and the skeletons manged to down a knight in response so the knights were stuck. The vampire lord chose to attack the sword masters and only killed 2 thanks to losing his rerolls, the bsb did a wound to the vamp back while on the other end of the combat the sword masters killed the wight king, necromancer and 12 skellies( 17 wounds with 20 attacks!!). the return attacks from the 2 skellies did nothing and the unit crumbled taking the vamp with it. Unfortunately the lone dragon prince died before he could have his vengeance, but pretty much everything crumbled either at the end of the combat phase or at the start of his turn. We called it there. 20-0

I'll post up my analysis of the game tomorrow, all comments and criticisms welcome.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:29 pm 
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A bloodbath!

:)

I'm a huge fan of Swordmasters. My unit of 14 tends to win me about 1 in 3 of my games. As you say it survives partly because other threats need to be dealt with. But also because I run High Magic and the threat of Flames etc means I get Shield off on it a lot. I've also found Standard of Balance really good. It reduces the damage many enemies can do which makes for a killer second round from the Swordmasters, especially if Shield is up. Of course while they're great vs Daemons for example (or VC's!) there are some foes where other units need to take more of the strain.

Of course your unit is bigger so maybe you don't need defensive buffs. Against elves to hit modifiers can be helpful. Searing Doom, Razor and RBT must leave you decent vs armour I feel.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:21 pm 
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Think the list is excellent against people with no or very limited shooting and not to much armour.
If they have either i predict massive problems.
I have played against book death its ok but the problem i found is there is potential to roll damn awful spells, or for someone to rock up with a mr3 unit where the chars have wards. Purple sun is very unreliable tbh i have found so many times that it has cost me games if its plan A.
Hope you do well though mate, i just think lizards do this list a lot better. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Thanks for the informed replies
@Spellarcher
yep I turn a bit one-sided after he had the failed magic phase and the sword masters went nuts. If you have any examples of where sword masters fail badly please let me know before I run into them on the tabletop. The bigger unit does help a bit with causalities.

@finreir
I cant see a strong shooting heavy army under Swedish comp that is in any way competitive. Lizards have no way to stop the DPs from clearing up all the skinks and salamanders and dwarfs rely heavily on warmachines which are vulnerable to death (sun or snipes), maybe a DE\WE bowline would work? WOC are probably my worst match up which is why I have the metal mage and razor standard. MR3 is unlikely as dwellers is in full play and people tend to fear being 'dwellers-ed' more than snipes. If they do take MR3 Its usually on a hero with no other ward so I just kill him first and them go to work on the others. Its not good but its not game over either.(See last game where my mage blew up before taking out any of his characters with MR3.) The spells are actually not bad as worst case scenario is all 3 snipes and D&D(roll 1,2,5,4) versus undead(ItP) which I'm happy enough with.
finreir wrote:
Purple sun is very unreliable tbh i have found so many times that it has cost me games if its plan A.

Sooo true and part of the reason I have BotWD on the BSB, I tend to misfire at least 1/2 the time.

Analysis of game
His initial rush at me was correct but I think he should have lined the vamp lords unit against the SM. If he sat back then I'd just shoot points off and start sniping. Turn 2 missing the terrorghiest in the SM flank was careless even though it worked out OK. The dragon princes on the right were too far out and did nothing all game. Letting me get the charge on the batswarm was a mistake but not as fatal as doing the combats in the wrong orderon his turn 2 which allowed me to reform into his flank. I got slightly lucky with the vamp lord rolling poorly but the average would have made no difference and he still would have crumbled. The lone dragon prince charge was foolish but fun which I dont do often enough. :)

The Archmage is now worrying me as with 2 5 dice spells a turn I average 2 miscasts a game which is BAD, 4 dice on gives 72% of IF with the book which I not entirely happy with either. My opponent suggested I switch the lvl1 to shadow or fire so I have a guaranteed miasma or fireball. I'm not sure, I think I'd like to keep it as is for the moment, any advice?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Irishranger wrote:
If you have any examples of where sword masters fail badly please let me know before I run into them on the tabletop.

Watch out for Breath Weapons. I've had bad experiences with a Hydra and a Herald of Nurgle.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:12 pm 
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/running them into 8 chaos trolls and missing the fear-check...

1st: the swedish AC is greek to me... I have read it a few times and it is quite a nice system but honestly, it is a little bit complicated if you are used to min-max ACs and pools. So i really cannot comment on the army, as I dont know which changes would lead to which results. (I know for example that the BoH is quite playable but that it gets redicoulously expensive when paired with a BoS, but thats it...)

2nd: I dont want to sound harsh or something like that, please dont missunderstand me. But an army whichs backbone consists of swordmasters can hardly be rated good or bad because of games against vampires. From my experience, anything that does not include a red fury vampire will simply be crushed under 10000 rerollable str5 attacks and the crumbeling rule. There are some ways to prevent this, like the flaming staff of overpoweredness that will fry HEs for breakfast, or zombi-congas dancing in front of the SM, but the classic ghoul horde simply gets disolved in the SM attacks.

3rd: 100% agree on WLs. They can be very small (around 8) or very large, the breaking point for me is normaly between 24-26, anything smaller probably will not see the end of turn 6...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:05 am 
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I think your a little off on the comp points....


Archmage, General, lvl4, Book of Hoeth, Lore of Death - 360 Pts.
-17-8-8-60 = -93

Noble, GW, Dragon Armour, BSB, Std. of the World Dragon - 184 Pts.
-10-4-12 = -26
Mage, The Amulet of Light, Scroll, Lore of Metal - 135 Pts.
-7-5 = -12

30 Spearmen, M, S, C - 295 Pts.
17 Archers, M, S, Std. of Eternal Flame - 212 Pts.
10 Archers, M - 115 Pts.
-12-6-4 = -22

22 Swordmasters of Hoeth, M, S, C, Talisman of Loec, Razor Standard - 415 Pts.
6 Dragon Princes of Caledor, M - 190 Pts.
6 Dragon Princes of Caledor, M - 190 Pts.
-18-8-8 = -34

Great Eagle - 50 Pts.
Great Eagle - 50 Pts.
-5-9 = -14
Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100 Pts.
Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100 Pts.
-4-6 = -10

Total: 300-211 = 89/10 = 8,9


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:22 pm 
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joey_boy wrote:
I think your a little off on the comp points....

Damn you're right, not sure how I messed that up... :(
Ah I forgot either the lvl4 or death penalty along with what looks like the bsb and the scroll. Well spotted sir, many thanks.

@Spellarcher
My experiences with hydras in the past have left me so traumatized I'd completely forgotten about them*shudder*, but your right they probably would eat the SM for breakfast

@Paricidas
Nice to see somebody else agrees with me about white lions and I wouldn't worry about not understanding swedish comp as I managed to fcuk it up myself :oops: . Of course I wouldn't rate the army based on one game against vc, I try not to judge an army until I've played 4 or 5 different opponents with it.

@joey_boy
Well done again on the spot, unfortunately I now have to go and rethink the list as the tournament is looking to penalize low lists(100vps per point difference) and most people are bringing higher lists(about a 12).

After playing a second game last night against beastmen(small win) I'm starting to doubt the book as being worth it. Purple sun did nothing 3 times out of 4(killed 8 gor all game) however soulblight was epic. The SM looked threatening but did little, they were held up for 4 turns by a tank beast lord who I couldn't snipe out due to not enough power dice. The MVPs went to the DPs as one unit front charged a gor horde and held it for 5 rounds of combat before breaking while the other despite losing half the unit to one DT test managed to combo with spears to break and run down a 30 strong gor block in one round.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:22 pm 
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Irishranger wrote:
joey_boy wrote:
I think your a little off on the comp points....



After playing a second game last night against beastmen(small win) I'm starting to doubt the book as being worth it. Purple sun did nothing 3 times out of 4(killed 8 gor all game) however soulblight was epic. The SM looked threatening but did little, they were held up for 4 turns by a tank beast lord who I couldn't snipe out due to not enough power dice. The MVPs went to the DPs as one unit front charged a gor horde and held it for 5 rounds of combat before breaking while the other despite losing half the unit to one DT test managed to combo with spears to break and run down a 30 strong gor block in one round.


this is the problem with book and death it leads towards this spell and usual a roll of a misfire 2 or 4 is not very helpful arguable with a book mage this is extended to the roll of a 6 also as personally i dotn want him within even a possible charge.
Death works best with an unkillable mage build simply because it gives him freedom of movement or if purple sun goes wrong he can take the charge :D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:50 pm 
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Irishranger wrote:
The SM looked threatening but did little, they were held up for 4 turns by a tank beast lord

This is one of the problems with Swordmasters, massed S5 attacks are usually deadly but not so much on a small frontage against a very hard character or monster. Obviously White Lions are a bit better here but best of all is a kitted Prince or some horrendous magic buff of course. Big things can sometimes be shot down before they get there.

As usual with Hydras, if you can knock wounds off first this can swing the combat (especially with Standard of Balance to nerf the Hatred). But SM's are not the ideal tool here I guess.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:23 pm 
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With a couple of games under my belt and some good advice from here, I've decided to drop the book as it's too many negative point and prevents the Archmage from having any survivability. Without any further ado here is the next iteration of the list:

Quote:
Archmage, General, lvl4, Folariath's Robe, Dragonbane Gem, Jewel of the Dusk, Lore of Death - 325 Pts.

Noble, GW, Dragon Armour, BSB, Std. of the World Dragon - 184 Pts.
Mage, lvl2, The Amulet of Light, Scroll, Lore of Shadows - 170 Pts.

17 Archers, M, S, Std. of Eternal Flame - 212 Pts.
30 Spearmen, M, S, C - 295 Pts.
10 Archers, M - 115 Pts.

22 Swordmasters of Hoeth, M, S, C, Talisman of Loec, Razor Standard - 415 Pts.
6 Dragon Princes of Caledor, M - 190 Pts.
6 Dragon Princes of Caledor, M - 190 Pts.

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100 Pts.
Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100 Pts.
Great Eagle - 50 Pts.
Great Eagle - 50 Pts.

Total: 2396

Assuming I've done my maths correctly this time it comes in at a fluffy 13.2

@finreir
Thanks for solving my composition and magic problems at one stroke. Switching the book for the robe is an excellent idea.

@Spellarcher
Actually 2 deep the SM out perform the lions here and lose less thanks to the WS6. tbh I played awful in last nights game and only won because I managed to get double 1s on 2 separate break tests including one on the SM! Not sniping out the beastlord was a bad idea as was throwing purple sun around when it was completely unnecessary(2 misfires and a 2). I could have thrown doom and darkness on the beastlord to break him or soulblight to kill him earlier.

My plan for hydras is either purple sun or shoot them as I've seen far too many regen saves passed to want to fight them with anything in combat that doesnt have flaming and that banner is too risky to put on a big combat block.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:58 am 
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The list looks good, I think you'll have problems with armys like wood elves, lizards and MSU beastmen. But it should work well against the normal contenders who show up like VC, DE, Empire and DoC.


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