2400 ETC Restrictions - Furion's HE

[Axiem]

I like it; have been playing around with a couple setups for lone knight-characters after my Lizardmen tendencies and they work well in most match-ups.

However, I don't think he's worth dropping the suicide SM and the Great Eagle; I'd rather you kept one of them in and moved some of your upgrades around to make room for the character.

My suggestion: Drop the Standard on the Phoenix Guard, convert back to Swordmasters and move the Banner of Sorcery to your BSB. Reasoning: at six models, the unit is just too much a liability and it's a whole lot of points you waste just to get the Banner, which you'd said earlier, you'd rather not leave out. I agree, but see the only reasonable way of making this work is dropping the Reaver Bow which, while distasteful, allows you to reliably keep the extra power dice the entire game. This also allows you to keep moving the Banner around as you need, and will prevent the enemy from focusing magic/shooting to try and reduce your magic phases, which this list relies on more than the 3 S5s you lose.

Archmage: L4, High, Annulian Crystal, Ring of Fury, 340
Prince: General, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Luckstone, Bow of Seafarer, 252
Mage: L2, Shadow, Seerstaff of Saphery, Ironcurse Icon, 170
Noble: BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, Banner of Sorcery, 168
Noble on Barded Steed: Dragon Armour, Shield, Helm of Fortune, Sword of Might, 154
25 First Archers: Standard, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame, 300
10 Archers: Musician, 115
10 Archers: Musician, 115
10 Spear Elves: Musician, 95
27 White Lions: FCG, Banner of Swiftness, 450
6 Swordmasters: Musician, 96
2 Repeater Bolt Thrower: 200
1 Great Eagle: 50

Total Army Cost: 2500.0

Gets the eagle back in, which could also be 3 Swordmasters if you feel the Noble covers enough of your bases, and the Ironcurse Icon / Potion of Foolhardiness for Noble / other 5 point magic item you might want.

Hope that helps!

Axiem

Edit: PS, have you thought about running two such Nobles in true Lizardmen fashion? Editing my proposed list, you could drop the Eagle and the Swordmasters completely to get a second similar mounted character, who'd I'd imagine help just as much as the eagle/swordmasters while possibly providing a bit of point denial in certain match-ups.

[pk-ng]

Axiem I have to disagree with you.
Moving the BoS to the BSB loses 3 S5 shots (hitting usually on 2s-3s) is big and also loses magical attacks. In his previously list I wouldn't call his SMs "suicidial" as they were carrying his BoS which he needs to keep to pump out additional dices. I think keeping the magical bows and BoS are core items to his list.

From whence you came, you shall remain, until you are complete again!

Archmage: L4, High, Annulian Crystal, Ring of Fury, 340
Prince: General, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Luckstone, Bow of Seafarer, 252
Mage: L2, Shadow, Seerstaff of Saphery, 165
Noble: BSB, Dragon Armour, Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield, 161
Noble on Barded Steed: Dragon Armour, Shield, Helm of Fortune, Sword of Might, 149
25 First Archers: Standard, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame, 300
10 Archers: Musician, 115
10 Archers: Musician, 115
10 Spear Elves: Musician, 95
27 White Lions: FCG, Banner of Swiftness, 450
6 Phoenix Guard: Standard, Musician, Banner of Sorcery, 158
2 Repeater Bolt Thrower: 200

Models in Army: 93
Total Army Cost: 2500.0

Yup. It's me again, with some changes to the list. Addition of 1+ hero instead of 5 swordmasters and eagle. 6 left swordmasters with banner of sorcery have been replaced with phoenix guard to get some survivability.

So, what's this guy for?
Blocking shooting resilient units like Ghouls, Crypt Horrors. Posing threat to advancing armies, like DE.
He can easily withstand tons of punishment.
Breaking on 8 with reroll is 92.3 chance of success.

What if enemy has a cannon? Get Cover. If that's not possible, act like an eagle.

Starting position: White Lions. After that it's a 18" skirmish for him

What do you think of the trade?

cheers!
Furion

Furion with regards to your changes it looks good
He can be suicidial and act as an eagle. He hits hard and is very survivable spoting a 1+ AS re-rollable. The issue I have with it is 1 less chaff drop and his mobility (compared to the Eagle) has dropped alot! I think it has merit but some play testing is required! That moble can be a very dangerous speed bump!

[Axiem]

@pk-ng

Fair enough - but if Furion values the 3 S5 shots enough to want to include the Bow, I would recommend going back to his previous list, without the Noble. However, trying to squeeze the BoS, the Noble, and the Reaver Bow into the same list has resulted in removing two units from Furion's toolbox in favor of one; for all intensive purposes, the eagle and the second unit of elites are both replaced by the Noble, as he's not likely to want to put the six Phoenix Guard in harms way, especially when they are worth so many victory points / power dice.

I wasn't calling the twelve SM suicidal; rather the 6-9 he traditionally favors, although at 12 they are only slightly better off, with as few as three models more than that standard unit. And lots of things are core to one's list until something better comes along In this case, I think that might be the Noble (who has a similar 3 S5 magical attacks, albeit only in combat), but the tradeoff for that might have to be dropping the Bow in order to protect the valuable BoS.

Axiem

[pk-ng]

@pk-ng

Fair enough - but if Furion values the 3 S5 shots enough to want to include the Bow, I would recommend going back to his previous list, without the Noble. However, trying to squeeze the BoS, the Noble, and the Reaver Bow into the same list has resulted in removing two units from Furion's toolbox in favor of one; for all intensive purposes, the eagle and the second unit of elites are both replaced by the Noble, as he's not likely to want to put the six Phoenix Guard in harms way, especially when they are worth so many victory points / power dice.

I wasn't calling the twelve SM suicidal; rather the 6-9 he traditionally favors, although at 12 they are only slightly better off, with as few as three models more than that standard unit. And lots of things are core to one's list until something better comes along In this case, I think that might be the Noble (who has a similar 3 S5 magical attacks, albeit only in combat), but the tradeoff for that might have to be dropping the Bow in order to protect the valuable BoS.

Axiem

True true.

[Lord Anathir]

Furion how do you typically deploy your army without having chaff drops to get your archers into favourable positions? I assume you pick your spot and deploy in a space that has clear sight to alot of the map (no terrain in the way). RBT are sandwiched between units or on the ends of your battle line? You normally keep all archers together? WL/big archers are central to your units or they anchor the flanks of your line?

Thanks in advance

[Furion]

@Anathir

This is too general question to answer it specifically. It depends on match-up, terrain and opponent.

However, generally speaking: you don't want your RBT's to die at all, WL need to advance forward in order to prohibit enemy's approach. With archers, their deployment is usually not that important, since they can viably shoot at almost any enemy unit. RBT's and characters position are far more important.

As to roster - I've just played a battle vs VC. Roster, as expected, worked flawlessly. Horse hero managed to block 40 ghouls. Rest of the army was outshot and killed in combat. Important tests are yet to come though - need to play vs skaven, Empire, Dwarfs.

cheers
Furion

[Axiem]

Congrats on the win!

The real question - against all the units VC can have, did you miss having the the Eagle and Swordmasters?

Axiem

[Paricidas]

@Anathir

This is too general question to answer it specifically. It depends on match-up, terrain and opponent.

However, generally speaking: you don't want your RBT's to die at all, WL need to advance forward in order to prohibit enemy's approach. With archers, their deployment is usually not that important, since they can viably shoot at almost any enemy unit. RBT's and characters position are far more important.

As to roster - I've just played a battle vs VC. Roster, as expected, worked flawlessly. Horse hero managed to block 40 ghouls. Rest of the army was outshot and killed in combat. Important tests are yet to come though - need to play vs skaven, Empire, Dwarfs.

cheers
Furion

I havent played that many games with your list against VC (4 or so?) but from what I have experienced, this list will give the VCs a run for their money. The archers alone are almost enough to ground a terrorgeist, and with all the RBTs and magic bows you can seriously damage: the flying frenzy troll-ghuls whos name I do not know, the mortis engine (stealing the casting bonus for the nehek spammers) the incorporal pain-in-the-rear units, the vamp-cav breaker (although as long as a lvl 4 nehek-caster is on the table, that will perhaps be not that hot) and it forces the mounted vampires into units, so he cannot run berzerk in the archers (which one of my VC opponents sometimes does).
Add in a grain of high magic and an annulian, and I dare to say that this list is a bad match-up for VCs, at least my opponents were rather surprised that it worked out that way.

Skaven have multiple ways to really cripple that army (slaves for hard cover, stormbanner and howling warpgale), empire will probably not be amused if the hurricanum is gone and the demigryphons shot to half strengh, especially whith the hellblasters only shooting 24 inches. Dwarfs will be very interesting, those konga-dancers-of-the-holy-imba-anvil will probably be not that easy, but I never had the skill to manage an opponent that can charge during multiple phases...

[Furion]

Congrats on the win!

The real question - against all the units VC can have, did you miss having the the Eagle and Swordmasters?

Axiem

Against this opponent, not a single bit.

1 Skaven have multiple ways to really cripple that army (slaves for hard cover, stormbanner and howling warpgale),
2 empire will probably not be amused if the hurricanum is gone and the demigryphons shot to half strengh, especially whith the hellblasters only shooting 24 inches. 3 Dwarfs will be very interesting, those konga-dancers-of-the-holy-imba-anvil will probably be not that easy, but I never had the skill to manage an opponent that can charge during multiple phases...

1 - Well, actually it's not THAT bad. Vaul Unmaking on storm banner is a win-win situation. Curse of arrows is extreamly good, even with storm banner on. The match-up is bad, but doable.
2 - Empire is not a problem for this list really.
3 - Dwarfs is definately the most difficult match-up. After numerous tries, I've came to a conclusion that I can't win high vs good Dwarf player My best shot is to deploy everything in a line, lose RBT, half archers and kill 2 warmachines and 1 unit. That makes like 11 or 12 points for me.

cheers
Furion

[Paricidas]

Vauls, flames and to a certain degree the +3 complexity of high magic are really fine against all lores/items that a skaven can bring to the table (esp. with the ETC rules in mind). The str6 boltthrower bow (bow of the seafarer?) is especially nice, since skaven warmachines only have t6 (contrary to almost all other cannons). And with high BF a noble can even shoot through hard cover.

Never tasted your list against empire, but if you face dual griffon-units (allowed at ETC?), one tends to murder my core while the other one is keeping my elites busy, i am sure armor ignore will be bad news for them. What really made my archers cry in all (read: all) games against the empire was the hurricanum. A str3 3-inches template thrown into a heap of t3 armorless guys is really murderous, especially if you face a lvl 4 fire wizard.

Dwarfs I cannot comment on, as I always play BoH-beasts against them. But reform-move-charge (booooha, I hate the envil) usually costs me my archer core troops (they somehow always get stuck between moving forward to not getting back charged by the anvil-dwarfs and not moving forward so the machinegun-cannon does not hit them).

[Mr.Korhil]

hi, first of all congrats on your successess and let's hope you keep on wining, secondly maybe the question was already posted by I really don't have time to dig through the whole 6 pages - where do you keep your heroes and specifically mages - how do you deal with rather low range of archmage?

[SpellArcher]

Personally, I've not found the 24" range a problem as a High Magic user. If enemy get too close to the bunker you intercept with a combat unit, divert with the eagle or run the AM out somewhere.

Furion's characters move around a lot.

[Aranon]

Hi, Furion.

I was just wondering why you went with the Sword of Might on the mounted Noble instead of a great weapon. It is cheaper and gives +2 strength instead of 1.

Do the ETC restrictions allow for Speed of Asuryan to trump the ASL of the great weapons? If not, Then I see the reasoning. Or would you lose the parry save?

Thanks, love the thread!

Aranon

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

+1 rerollable is better than a +2 rerollable, esepcially since Furion is keeping him cheap due to cannons,, my as well keep him rather tanky.

[pk-ng]

Hi, Furion.

I was just wondering why you went with the Sword of Might on the mounted Noble instead of a great weapon. It is cheaper and gives +2 strength instead of 1.

Do the ETC restrictions allow for Speed of Asuryan to trump the ASL of the great weapons? If not, Then I see the reasoning. Or would you lose the parry save?

Thanks, love the thread!

Aranon

Sword of Might is for magical attacks. Especially with VC and HE that had access to ethereal units/abilities the SoM will ensure that the Noble doesn't get bogged down.

As for SoA it's already been offical FAQ that SoA > ASL for all great weapons. So no need for ETC ruling.

You do not get a parry save when you're mounted or carry a magical shield and/or sword. You only get parry when you are on foot with a mundane hand weapon and shield.

[SpellArcher]

Also you can use a shield with Sword of Might, improving the AS from 2+ to 1+.

As it's re-rollable this can make a big difference.

[Aranon]

Also you can use a shield with Sword of Might, improving the AS from 2+ to 1+.

As it's re-rollable this can make a big difference.

You can still equip a shield to increase your AS even when taking a great weapon. You just don't get the parry save in close combat.

+1 rerollable is better than a +2 rerollable, esepcially since Furion is keeping him cheap due to cannons,, my as well keep him rather tanky.

you dont get a parry save against cannons/shooting anyway.

Sword of Might is for magical attacks. Especially with VC and HE that had access to ethereal units/abilities the SoM will ensure that the Noble doesn't get bogged down.

As for SoA it's already been offical FAQ that SoA > ASL for all great weapons. So no need for ETC ruling.

You do not get a parry save when you're mounted or carry a magical shield and/or sword. You only get parry when you are on foot with a mundane hand weapon and shield.

^pk-ng makes the best argument here. the extra strength isnt worth running into ethereal guys and getting stuck.

There is definately a trade off here. Though, I dont know if I would give up a great weapon over the SoM if it were the only combat oriented character. I think in Furion's list it does make sense though because of the reasons pk-ng already mentioned.


-Aranon

[SpellArcher]

I'd actually missed Trains' post so apologies to him.

Yes you would take a shield anyway on a GW tank Noble but being able to use it in combat is very important. He's clearly more survivable vs hard-hitting enemies. Yes you always have to watch out for bolt shooters and other stuff that ignores armour.

The magic attacks are priceless vs Ethereals but the improved AS will come into play much more often.

[Nopuiiidorl]

I've been following this post, all the 6 pages, so do not worry, I will not ask why only one Eagle

Just some doubts:

1) How do you deal against BIG things (aka: what strategy do you follow against), mainly: a greater daemon (Khorne/Nurgle), a Steam Tank or a Big hero on a dragon (HE dragon list or DE dragon list). They usually have high T, good AS and lots of W.

2) WoC flying heros (good T/AS/flying). This and "1" are follow more or less the same fear: how do you take rid of enemies with high mobility and real high T/W/AS stats.

3) What do you do when you face a Khaeleth Pegasus hero?

3) T4 armies: Lizardmen, orcs and, above all, ogres are hard to fight against because arrows, as far as I've experienced, do not hurt them that much.

4) How do you try to protect yourself against automatic impact units (I'm thinking about O&G, that have LOADS of them).


In a more abstract way, what are your attacking priorities when a battle starts?


Then, my thought about the last list. For all the argumentation I've read from you in the whole 6 pages, I just cannot conceive a unit of 6 PG in you army list. Let me ask you: why? From my point of view:

1) White Lions do not need banner of swiftness because of the game style you propose (counter-attack or diffuse), you will probably choosing the unit to engage against, and in general you do not care that much about charging or being charged (ASF rule). Thus, they could perfectly carry the Banner of Sorcery.
2) I feel 6 PG unit with that banner is really dangerous... for you. A good Doom Diver shot, some DE shadows/Dark knights, some magic can put it down. Just 2 casualties and you have to test for panic.

By sparing the PG points and the Banner of Swiftness points (BoS goes to WL), you can include again a 7-8 Sword Masters unit (maybe even 2x5?), which could be a good menace (I won't justify this as you've been playing that unit for a lot of battles). If you just make a 5-6 SM unit, you can also change your BSB's steed for an eagle. You achieve even more mobility, the possibility to "jump" over units when moving/charging, something I think can give you more tactical possibilities. Plus, you get 1 extra wound for your BSB (3W instead of 2) and 3 S4 attacks (2A from eagle plus stomp) instead of 1A S3 (steed).

[SpellArcher]

In one of his battle reports Furion's shooting phase removes a Great Unclean One in one round. The bolt shooters and Seafarer ignore armour. Plus the High/Shadow magic combo has many spells that enhance this.

[Nopuiiidorl]

In one of his battle reports Furion's shooting phase removes a Great Unclean One in one round. The bolt shooters and Seafarer ignore armour. Plus the High/Shadow magic combo has many spells that enhance this.

DId you notice there was almost no cover in that game? (in thread page number 2). Besides, furion himself states hi was so lucky (expecting 6 wounds against GUO, he did 10). I can't consider your post a 100% satisfactory answer

[SpellArcher]

Sure, we await a full answer from the man himself...



What I'm saying is themagic/shooting has a fearsome and not instantly obvious multiplier effect that so far seems able to deal with almost anything. I guess Furion will design lists for the playing conditions he expects to face. But the list has been trialled successfully in the UK too.

[Furion]

Hey guys, had some issues at work and RL, hence the late reply. I follow this thread closely though!

I've been following this post, all the 6 pages, so do not worry, I will not ask why only one Eagle

cheers!

Just some doubts:

1) How do you deal against BIG things (aka: what strategy do you follow against), mainly: a greater daemon (Khorne/Nurgle), a Steam Tank or a Big hero on a dragon (HE dragon list or DE dragon list). They usually have high T, good AS and lots of W.

With proper unit position, followed by whatever arguments I have. 2d6s4 is a 50% for a wound. Curse of arrows is an additional 2 wounds. Lowering T is an additional 2 wounds. With shooting itself it's like 2 wounds. Usually I decide to put 2-3 wounds on dragon in then I ignore switching to other priority targets. I can take the remaining wounds easily whenever I want.

2) WoC flying heros (good T/AS/flying). This and "1" are follow more or less the same fear: how do you take rid of enemies with high mobility and real high T/W/AS stats.

Take down ward save with Vauls, then kill with Prince or BSB in CC.

3) What do you do when you face a Khaeleth Pegasus hero?

Vauls, eventually WL horde.

3) T4 armies: A) Lizardmen, B) orcs and, above all, C)ogres are hard to fight against because arrows, as far as I've experienced, do not hurt them that much.

A) Lizzardmen are an ok pairing. They actually have T2 not T4. Saurus Warriors are totally negligible for this list purposes, the fastest they can reasonably engage is turn 4. The hardest thing to do is to deploy properly, so Terradons can't do much damage. With saurus CO hero, if you take down some armor of him (ie. enchanted shield) you can kill them in CC with prince.

B) Very hard pairing anyways. What I do recently is deploying in lines, killing some machines and some chariots with WL. It is important to note that OnG are very bad luck susceptible. Unless OnG player makes some significant mistakes, I will manage 13 points, more if he is unlucky or makes mistakes.

C) Ogres are an easy pairing. They actually don't have any arguments. Whatever spell I cast is dangerous. Out of my last 6 tournament games against ogres I have an average of 18 points.

4) How do you try to protect yourself against automatic impact units (I'm thinking about O&G, that have LOADS of them).

Manglers and pump wagons are easy to shoot down. Real threat is Chariots. I am happy to sacrifice 14 white lions for killing 3 chariots. White Lions are kinda useless in this matchup, since they can't kill savage orcs anyways. So if they kill some chariots and do nothing for rest of the battle, that's perfect.

In a more abstract way, what are your attacking priorities when a battle starts?

That highly depends on deployment, enemy roster and who gets the 1st turn.

Then, my thought about the last list. For all the argumentation I've read from you in the whole 6 pages, I just cannot conceive a unit of 6 PG in you army list. Let me ask you: why? From my point of view:

1) White Lions do not need banner of swiftness because of the game style you propose (counter-attack or diffuse), you will probably choosing the unit to engage against, and in general you do not care that much about charging or being charged (ASF rule). Thus, they could perfectly carry the Banner of Sorcery.
2) I feel 6 PG unit with that banner is really dangerous... for you. A good Doom Diver shot, some DE shadows/Dark knights, some magic can put it down. Just 2 casualties and you have to test for panic.

This is my current list, this Hero on horse was a failed experiment, I'm not that happy with his preformance.

1 * Prince @ 252.0 Pts
General; Great Weapon
Luckstone
Armour of Caledor
Bow of the Seafarer

1 Archmage @ 340.0 Pts
Magic Level 4; Lore of High Magic
Annulian Crystal
Ring of Fury

1 * Noble @ 169.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard
Reaver Bow
Charmed Shield

1 Mage @ 180.0 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Shadow
Seerstaff of Saphery
Amulet of Light

25 First Archers w/ Standard, Musican, Banner of Eternal Flame @ 300.0 Pts
10 Archers w/ Musician @ 115.0 Pts
10 Archers w/ Musician @ 115.0 Pts
10 Spear Elves w/ Musician @ 95.0 Pts
1 Great Eagle
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower
27 White Lions w/ FCG, Banner of Swiftness @ 450.0 Pts
11 Swordmasters w/ Standard, Musican, Banner of Sorcery @ 233.0 Pts

Models in Army: 99
Total Army Cost: 2499.0

cheers
Furion

[Nopuiiidorl]

I assume that when you say the list works as a clockwork engine it will be in ETC games, no WH ones.

I say this because ETC corrects many of the rule "flaws" (all DE combos together, no more than 4/5 to shoot an spell, no more than 12dice per magic phase, 2+ Special Save for characters in units against purple suns dwellers below etc.). I wonder how this list would behave in a normal game.

There is another thing that I find "funny". You say: against this problem I use Vaul's Unmaking. That seems beautiful, but the enemy can always dispel that. IMO is much more affordable to let enter a 2d6S4 impacts (khaine) or a shield of saphery than Vaul's or curse of arrows, at least on the first turns of the game. So you strategy may sometimes just not work. Any plan B when that happens?

I like very much you last list. I would just switch banners between you elites: sorcery to Lions / swiftness to Swordmasters. Lions are stubborn and have better AS against shooting, and you have almost triple miniatures there, so banner of sorcery will be pretty safe there. In the other hand, a "faster" SM unit can be also a great threat for the enemy, plus their environment is CC.

Have you thought about dropping Banner of swiftness and making 2 units of 6-7 SMs?

Have a nice day.

[Furion]

I assume that when you say the list works as a clockwork engine it will be in ETC games, no WH ones.

I say this because ETC corrects many of the rule "flaws" (all DE combos together, no more than 4/5 to shoot an spell, no more than 12dice per magic phase, 2+ Special Save for characters in units against purple suns dwellers below etc.). I wonder how this list would behave in a normal game.

A game of WFB 8th edition without comp of some sort is pointless since it limits the tactical challenge to a minimum. This is my opinion, feel free to have your own. Let me say just this - whole Poland and half of Germany, Spain, Russia and Singapur + many many more use ETC restrictions and the ETC tournament is currently the most prestigous tournament in the world, ETC rulespack is well balanced, so there are some reasons to follow ETC restrictions.

Therefore I wouldn't be so eager to call comp-free game as a "normal game". For me a "normal game" is when we play 3000 per side with fun armybooks and drink beer. Other then that, I call it competetive gaming, and in such requirements some balance changes are needed.

There is another thing that I find "funny". You say: against this problem I use Vaul's Unmaking. That seems beautiful, but the enemy can always dispel that. IMO is much more affordable to let enter a 2d6S4 impacts (khaine) or a shield of saphery than Vaul's or curse of arrows, at least on the first turns of the game. So you strategy may sometimes just not work. Any plan B when that happens?

Warhammer is a game of chances and probabilties. You seem to not take into account following factors:
1. number of dispel dice per magic phase is highly variable.
2. With every casting roll you have circa 25% for a high roll, 50% for medium roll and 25% for low roll. Since high magic has low casting values, it will be cast anyways on low roll. Medium and high rolls might be a problem for my opponent to dispel.
3. What makes this a safe bet is a fact that I can cast a Vaul for 3 turns or so before I have to destroy item X. Combining this with +4 to roll and other dangerous spells it is not a wishful thinking to have Vaul go through. It's a reasonable assumption.

I like very much you last list. I would just switch banners between you elites: sorcery to Lions / swiftness to Swordmasters. Lions are stubborn and have better AS against shooting, and you have almost triple miniatures there, so banner of sorcery will be pretty safe there. In the other hand, a "faster" SM unit can be also a great threat for the enemy, plus their environment is CC.

Illegal due to comp restrictions.

Have you thought about dropping Banner of swiftness and making 2 units of 6-7 SMs?

No, banner of swiftness is a nice treat, with points I have I can field a total of 11 SM, definately not 14.

cheers
Furion

[Nopuiiidorl]

I assume that when you say the list works as a clockwork engine it will be in ETC games, no WH ones.

I say this because ETC corrects many of the rule "flaws" (all DE combos together, no more than 4/5 to shoot an spell, no more than 12dice per magic phase, 2+ Special Save for characters in units against purple suns dwellers below etc.). I wonder how this list would behave in a normal game.

A game of WFB 8th edition without comp of some sort is pointless since it limits the tactical challenge to a minimum. This is my opinion, feel free to have your own. Let me say just this - whole Poland and half of Germany, Spain, Russia and Singapur + many many more use ETC restrictions and the ETC tournament is currently the most prestigous tournament in the world, ETC rulespack is well balanced, so there are some reasons to follow ETC restrictions.

Therefore I wouldn't be so eager to call comp-free game as a "normal game". For me a "normal game" is when we play 3000 per side with fun armybooks and drink beer. Other then that, I call it competetive gaming, and in such requirements some balance changes are needed.

There is another thing that I find "funny". You say: against this problem I use Vaul's Unmaking. That seems beautiful, but the enemy can always dispel that. IMO is much more affordable to let enter a 2d6S4 impacts (khaine) or a shield of saphery than Vaul's or curse of arrows, at least on the first turns of the game. So you strategy may sometimes just not work. Any plan B when that happens?

Warhammer is a game of chances and probabilties. You seem to not take into account following factors:
1. number of dispel dice per magic phase is highly variable.
2. With every casting roll you have circa 25% for a high roll, 50% for medium roll and 25% for low roll. Since high magic has low casting values, it will be cast anyways on low roll. Medium and high rolls might be a problem for my opponent to dispel.
3. What makes this a safe bet is a fact that I can cast a Vaul for 3 turns or so before I have to destroy item X. Combining this with +4 to roll and other dangerous spells it is not a wishful thinking to have Vaul go through. It's a reasonable assumption.

cheers
Furion

I'm Spanish so I'm aware about what you say about ETC. Wasn't meaning if it was better or worse system, I was just remarking that both of them are almost different games (don't care about the reasons). By the way, as far as I know Polish are by far the best ETC players, so congrats. You count with all my respect. I am just trying to understand all the insights of your list. You are here, hence I ask as much as I can in order to read your answers. It helps me learning.

I will stop the debate about spells. Of course this is a chances game. That's why I think you have the same possibilities to score a spell on perfect timing, or loosing that chance. You can always have a 6-1 dice with just 1 extra dice on the banner. Enemies always have dispel scrolls and B plans etc.

Thank you very much for your attention and patience.