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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:35 am 
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Hello.

New user at this forum. Warm greetings to everyone. Now to the topic. I'll post my list without justification, give me hardest ride possible!

Quote:
1 Archmage @ 280.0 Pts
Magic Level 4; Lore of Shadow
Dispel Scroll [20.0]

1 * Prince @ 252.0 Pts
General; Great Weapon
Bow of the Seafarer [60.0]
Armour of Caledor [25.0]
Luckstone [5.0]

1 Mage @ 185.0 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of High Magic
Silver Wand [10.0]
Ring of Fury [40.0]

1 Mage @ 175.0 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of High Magic
Annulian Crystal [40.0]

1 * Noble @ 164.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard
Reaver Bow [40.0]

26 Archers w/ Musician @ 291.0 Pts
14 Archers w/ Musician @ 159.0 Pts
17 SpearElves w/ Musician@ 158.0 Pts

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower @ 100.0 Pts
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower @ 100.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

27 White Lions @ 485.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Lion Pelt; FCG
Banner of Sorcery [50.0]

Models in Army: 96
Total Army Cost: 2399.0


So, what do you think?

ETC restrictions can be found here: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 18&t=88755

cheers
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Last edited by Furion on Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:25 pm 
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You are too character heavy. Generally speaking for HE: unless the charcter fullfills a special role, special troops are always better.

So, drop the second lvl2 mage and move the chrystal to the archmage (drop the scroll).
Drop the prince

Your core looks strange. Drop the small archer unit and turn them into spears for a unit of 35 spears. The main purpose for spears is breaking steadfast, and a unit of 17 just won't accomplish this. Archers are good for clearing small stuff like scouts / weapon teams etc. You don't need 40 for this. Also, split the big archer unit in 2, allowing you to target different support units as required.

Personally I would also drop 6 WL for a unit of 21 (3*7), but you might prefer a bigger unit.

With the points gained (497 points if my calculations are correct), get 5DP, no command and another elite unit or 2 and/or another great eagle. For instance, 20 PG (leaving you some point for command or a magic item/banner somewhere), 2 units of SM (1 of 7 and 1 of 14, again with a few points left over).

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:50 pm 
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I see what you're going for, and can tell rdghuizing's advice, while useful for a general list, doesn't really apply, as it completely defeats the purpose of the army.

I think all I would add is get a second Great Eagle, as your army revolves around shooting people off the table for the first half of the game, and true combat armies won't let one piddly eagle stop them. I don't know if your Silver Wand/Ring of Fury High Mage really needs the level 2 upgrade, as I imagine most of the time you'll be throwing dice at Ring of Fury anyway. I guess it comes down to whether you think the 35 point upgrade is worth it for being slightly more likely to have Curse/Flames. Also I would aim for the flaming banner on the large archer unit, you only have to drop one model after all. Even in open list games like ETC, being able to threaten big nasties like Hellpits or large Troll units is really worth it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Following on from Stormie's post, I'm not understanding the following things:

1) List already has 7 spells, enough for 12 PD. What is the Ring/Wand Mage adding?

2) Why not swap the Prince for 2 more RBT? The Ld10 could be good but he can't fight combat for long.

3) Why the size 17 Spear unit? Is it a character bunker?

4) Like Stormie says, why not more eagles or other light troops to redirect?

I'm not saying "what a daft list" but it's unusual and my poor brain isn't getting it!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:42 pm 
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I think this list is all about flexibility. He can start the magic phase with Withering followed by Flames and Vauls Unmaking.
This is strong against most armies. Otherwise he has two magic missiles which absolutly murder ethereals and small units.
Lists that rely on one lore alone, for example relying strong on shadow, lack damage dealing spells (with the exeption of pit of shades).

In the ETC environment some list should be as flexible as possible to deal with nearly every army. Furions HE are such an example.
The Prince is another bolt thrower while he has some close combat potential as well. But I would consider dropping him for another bolt thrower and add bodies to the spermen unit. They are perfect for a late game Okkams. At some point this list will be in combat and relying on White Lions alone sounds too risky from my point of view.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:26 pm 
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This list needs some work. So here is what I am guessing you want:

1) Strong magic Phase filled with Shadow/High combos.
2) Strong Shooting Phase to synergize with magic
3) A close combat unit or 2 to finish things off

Characters:
As said before, you are way too character heavy. You need to drop some choices to keep your troop count up so the Prince goes, and the Second mage goes. Magic Items are kinda trivial: Just make sure you have Folraith's Robes or Talisman of Preservation on your archmage and Annulian Crystal somewhere. Your Reaver Bow BSB will get cut down in combat if you decide on the Greatweapon, I strongly urge you to drop the great weapon, and add a shield and Dragon Helm (be sure you downgrade to heavy armor).

Core:
If you are going to take 4 levels of Shadow, you need to have spears. Spears and Mindrazor is one of the scariest things in the game. So I would take a block of Spears and a Block of Sea Guard with Banner of Eternal Flame. Sea Guard become your key answer to regeneration. if you can set-up for a good flaming volley-fire, your RBT's can finish off anything with regen. In addition, Drakenhoff, and Earthblood will be festering in this enviroment. Sea Guard can annihilate these regen bunkers with Okkam's.

Special:
White Lions are great usually but don't synergize well with the rest of the army. Their S6 doesn't care about Withering/Okkam's, and isn't valued as much when you have RBT's. I would suggest Phoenix Guards or Swordmasters (still with banner of Sorcery) instead.

5 Dragon Princes with a Musician are a cheap, expendable, but hard hitting threat that should be taken in every High Elf army, especially a shooty one!

Rare:
This one is easy, max out eagles, get another RBT.

Archmage 345
Level 4 (Shadow)
Annulian Crystal
Talisman of Preservation

Mage 170
Level 2 (High)
Silver Wand
Skeinsliver

BSB 166
Heavy Armor
Shield
Reaver Bow
Dragonhelm

25 Sea Guard 360
Shields
Full Command
Banner of Eternal Flame

25 Spears 250
Full Command

24 Swordmasters 445
Full Command
Banner of Sorcery
Ironcurse Icon

5 Dragon Princes 160
Musician

3 RBT 300
4 Great Eagles 200

I think this will suit what your a trying to accomplish much better. The only thing I might do personally is drop the Lv2 mage for another unit of cheap Dragon Princes. Good Luck!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:57 am 
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Ok my dear friends :) thank you for your comments! I am going to reply all your queries now.

rdghuizing wrote:
You are too character heavy. Generally speaking for HE: unless the charcter fullfills a special role, special troops are always better.


What made you think that any of those characters doesn't fulfill a special role?

My initial assumptions about what makes a good, magic-heavy HE list are:

Items:
- Annulian Crystal
- Dispell Scroll
- Ring of Fury

Spells:
- 4 from Shadow
- A choice of spells from High Magic, ie: Curse of Arrow Attraction, Fury of Khaine, Flames of Phoenix, Vaul's Unmaking.

Explanation: Annulian Crystal is a must be. Scroll is optional, I'm still thinking if I really need it that much. Ring of Fury is another must be. It grants me the possibilty to cast 2d6s4 where I really need it with a safe 6 dice bet. Or harass the enemy with 1/2 dice.

About spells: from shadow, I find that Miasma is the core weapon when fighting against armies with 3+ hordes. The Withering is another super-duper good spells, especially with tons of shooting. Pit of Shades and Occam's Mindrazor are optional, and my expierience tells me, that against a specific army I'll be needing Pit of Shades or Occam's Mindrazor.

The current way to resolve those issues is a good fit I think. Silver wand has found its place only becosue it fits nicely with Ring of Fury, plus it's actually useful.

SpellArcher wrote:
1) List already has 7 spells, enough for 12 PD. What is the Ring/Wand Mage adding?

It's not the number of spells that makes your magic phase good, it's the possibilty to cast specific spells at specific situations. I'm not casting all of my spells in my Magic Phase, true that, but with vast choice I have the spells I cast are actually more dangerous than in a Magic Phase with limited casting options.
rdghuizing wrote:
Drop the prince

SpellArcher wrote:
2) Why not swap the Prince for 2 more RBT? The Ld10 could be good but he can't fight combat for long.

@rdghuizing
I'd love to see your justification of that.
@SpellArcher
He is not meant to fight combat for long. My damage output and, lets call it "danger factor" is greatly increased with Bow of Seafarer. His durability against holding s3 hordes is comparable to a prince destined to fight in cc. Both are no match for dragons / greater deamons. Bow isn't the best item in the world, but it's still better than adding excessive armour which doesn't really improve anything.

RBT's are easier to get shot down, are killed in combat, can't block enemy units, they aim worse, they can't enhance my unit fighting capabilities. Plus the LD10.
rdghuizing wrote:
Your core looks strange. Drop the small archer unit and turn them into spears for a unit of 35 spears. The main purpose for spears is breaking steadfast, and a unit of 17 just won't accomplish this.

The main purpose of spears in my roster is to have another place where I can hold my mages, occasionaly followed by a flank charge. Or, with BSB or Lord, to block a charge of a wounded abomination / sphinx or similar.
rdghuizing wrote:
Archers are good for clearing small stuff like scouts / weapon teams etc. You don't need 40 for this. Also, split the big archer unit in 2, allowing you to target different support units as required.

Now this is a lack of insight, my friend. The more you focus on certain factors, the bigger output will be, aka 2+2=5 thingie. If I invest heavily in magic, which boosts my shooting phase, having a strong shooting phase is a logical consequence.
Stormie wrote:
Also I would aim for the flaming banner on the large archer unit, you only have to drop one model after all. Even in open list games like ETC, being able to threaten big nasties like Hellpits or large Troll units is really worth it.

Jaith wrote:
Block of Sea Guard with Banner of Eternal Flame. Sea Guard become your key answer to regeneration. if you can set-up for a good flaming volley-fire, your RBT's can finish off anything with regen. In addition, Drakenhoff, and Earthblood will be festering in this enviroment. Sea Guard can annihilate these regen bunkers with Okkam's.

Unfortunately it's not as straightforward as it seems. I was running this list with the flaming attacks on archers / white lions as you are proposing here, but it doesn't work at all. I was totaly owned by fighty characters: nowadays every fighty hero has a Dragonbane Gem / Helm. Banner of Eternal Flame is actually hurting me more than it's hurting my enemies. With -T I kill everything I want regardless of regeneration. I also have Vaul's Unmaking against the Drakehoff Banner.

I won't be sacrificing 4 dice of my magic phase to possibly get a 5pts item down, it's not cost effective at all.

Furion wrote:
Personally I would also drop 6 WL for a unit of 21 (3*7), but you might prefer a bigger unit. With the points gained (497 points if my calculations are correct), get 5DP, no command and another elite unit or 2 and/or another great eagle. For instance, 20 PG (leaving you some point for command or a magic item/banner somewhere), 2 units of SM (1 of 7 and 1 of 14, again with a few points left over).

Swordmasters in 8th? I don't agree with that at all, dispite having 21 of them painted :( unit of 7 is ok for killing support and damaging monsters (a bit costy exchange though) Now here is my question: what does it bring to my roster? I don't need anything to kill support units. I have some RBT's, some archers, some magic bows. Yes, swordmaster are best at killing support, but I don't need them at all.

Also, a unit of 14 is a 25% loss of investment when you field it, since you make only 1 support attack. I fail to see (or believe?) in the power of Swordmasters, White Lions are better in every aspect.

Dropping the big unit of White Lions from 28 to 21 and changing the formation of this unit to 7*3 is making thsi unit damage output weaker by almost a half. Since it's my only real fighting units (ie. the one that manages to win a fight without augment / hexes) this is not a way to go.

Stormie wrote:
I don't know if your Silver Wand/Ring of Fury High Mage really needs the level 2 upgrade, as I imagine most of the time you'll be throwing dice at Ring of Fury anyway. I guess it comes down to whether you think the 35 point upgrade is worth it for being slightly more likely to have Curse/Flames

It's an increase from 72% to 86%. It's not an obvious choice but a viable one.

SpellArcher wrote:
3) Why the size 17 Spear unit? Is it a character bunker?

Gwydion wrote:
The Prince is another bolt thrower while he has some close combat potential as well. But I would consider dropping him for another bolt thrower and add bodies to the spermen unit. They are perfect for a late game Okkams.

Jaith wrote:
If you are going to take 4 levels of Shadow, you need to have spears. Spears and Mindrazor is one of the scariest things in the game.

Primarily, the function of this unit is to act like a mage bunker. About the Mindrazor synergy:
1. If I fight a horde I don't need Mindrazor. They will kill me anyways, and killing 16 slaves instead of 9 doesn't change a thing.
2. If I fight an elite unit, I won't be fighting it at it full model count. This is not a wishful thinking, I have enough magic / shooting to do so. Therefore If I manage to take them down from 25 models (typical starting size of an elite) to 18 models (reasonable assumption) I ruin them with my 18 spears. 35 is an overkill. I wont even do an overrun on them, since when I charge I loose 1 rank worth of attacks, so it's the same damage as 18 spears. In both examples I either win a fight and break them or kill them in the next round.
3. Mindrazor can also be cast on archers. When I charge it's exactly the same number of attacks as spearmen. Durability against s3 attacks is lower, against s4 and higher practically the same.
Gwydion wrote:
In the ETC environment some list should be as flexible as possible to deal with nearly every army.

This list is designed for a solo gaming, not for team battles, hence the flexibility.

Jaith wrote:
This list needs some work (...) As said before, you are way too character heavy. You need to drop some choices to keep your troop count up so the Prince goes, and the Second mage goes.

This is exactly the kind of discussion I hate: repeating some well-known slogans without justification, assuming they are true in every circumstances and therefore applying them to every list. No hard feelings Jaith, but comments like this bring nothing to the discussion.

Jaith wrote:
Magic Items are kinda trivial:

You mean my magic items, or the ones that you propose? Becuose I don't get that phrase.
Jaith wrote:
Just make sure you have Folraith's Robes or Talisman of Preservation on your archmage and Annulian Crystal somewhere.

Folraith's Robes? Would be an intresting choice. Not sure how much do I need it though. If you are thinking about increasing the archmage's survivability in combat, then I don't need it for sure. In over 20 games with this list my archmage didn't fight a single time.

Talisman of Preservation is not for me: I'm guessing you suggest it for sake of higher miscast / Lore of Death survivability? Well, For miscast I have 3 wounds anyways so I can sustain 2 of them, and it is unlikely that I'll get 3 miscasts in a game. Besides, I always assume that I fail a 4+ roll :) Lore of Death is an issue, but if anything I'd rather go for a Loremaster Cloak then this talisman.
Jaith wrote:
White Lions are great usually but don't synergize well with the rest of the army. Their S6 doesn't care about Withering/Okkam's, and isn't valued as much when you have RBT's. I would suggest Phoenix Guards or Swordmasters (still with banner of Sorcery) instead.

This is precisely why White Lions are the only possible fit in this army. I don't have to spend my dice on buffing them, I can bring havoc with my magic somewhere else. And with that great choice of spells I will always find sometimes that suits my needs best.

Jaith wrote:
Block of Sea Guard with Banner of Eternal Flame. Sea Guard become your key answer to regeneration. if you can set-up for a good flaming volley-fire, your RBT's can finish off anything with regen. In addition, Drakenhoff, and Earthblood will be festering in this enviroment. Sea Guard can annihilate these regen bunkers with Okkam's.

30" range is crucial when fighting against Dark Elves, Dwarfs, Empire and many more. 5+ save is nothing anyways.

Jaith wrote:
Your Reaver Bow BSB will get cut down in combat if you decide on the Greatweapon, I strongly urge you to drop the great weapon, and add a shield and Dragon Helm (be sure you downgrade to heavy armor).

Huh? Exchanging s6 5+ save for s4 3+ save? It doesn't improve anything at all. He is still killed by a 2d6s4, 10 xbows, handguns, 14 archers. No change here. What I get in exchange? A significantly weaker fighter. This is not a good advice at all, regardless of roster.

Jaith wrote:
5 Dragon Princes with a Musician are a cheap, expendable, but hard hitting threat that should be taken in every High Elf army, especially a shooty one!


They are worth precisely as much as a RBT and an Eagle. In my opinion it's not worth it. Besides, I don't have point for this goodyness anyways, and even if I had, I would go for RBT+Eagle.
Jaith wrote:
[Field this]
Archmage 345
Level 4 (Shadow)
Annulian Crystal
Talisman of Preservation

Mage 170
Level 2 (High)
Silver Wand
Skeinsliver


And be eaten by wraiths and spirit hosts? Sadly, I need this Ring of Fury. Skeinsilver is really nice, especially for a shooty army, no question here. Still, I can play without 1st turn but I can't play without magic missle.

all wrote:
get more eagles

My expierience shows me that 1 eagle is suffice or even 4 is not enough. Hunting war machines against a good player is a wishful thinking, redirecting army with 4 hordes cant be done forever with any amount of eagles and the more you commit to redirecting your opponent (via eagles, DP) the weaker your roster is in general: less magic, less shooting, less cc. I find the one eagle to suit me very well, I can understand people who field more since it's a clear, visible gain when you play ;) but let's say it's just not my cup of tea.

rdghuizing wrote:
So, drop the second lvl2 mage and move the chrystal to the archmage (drop the scroll).

This is actually kind of a good idea. Will get back to it later.


=====================================================================


With the following roster I managed to win a 65 man strong tournament 2 weeks ago.
My usual standings are in the top 10% of all contestants.
I was attending ETC last year.
I scored 5th place in WFB Polish League in 2010 (1176 players that season)

This information has been posted not to boast myself, but to discourage rating player's capability to do a good roster by post count ;)

Warm thanks to everyone who took the time to answer in this thread. I'm looking forward to chat some more. If you have any queries, I will respond to them whenever I get the time to do so.

Will do some thinking about a scrollless list in the meantime!

cheers
Furion

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:27 am 
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Furion wrote:
It's not the number of spells that makes your magic phase good, it's the possibilty to cast specific spells at specific situations. I'm not casting all of my spells in my Magic Phase, true that, but with vast choice I have the spells I cast are actually more dangerous than in a Magic Phase with limited casting options.

OK fair point. I guess it's just where you draw the line. Most guys find a Mage good back-up to an AM at 2400 because he clearly gives you options. Are you getting enough extra options from the second Mage to be worth more than taking extra troops?

Furion wrote:
My damage output and, lets call it "danger factor" is greatly increased with Bow of Seafarer.
I'm a huge fan of magic bows and can see this, especially on foot.

Furion wrote:
Both are no match for dragons / greater deamons.

True enough. Against mid-range Lords, hard heroes or elites though there are other ways to go, like Talisman of Loec or more protection.

RBT give you more shots which can be good in an already shooty list. Maybe it depends a bit on match-up.

Furion wrote:
This is precisely why White Lions are the only possible fit in this army. I don't have to spend my dice on buffing them, I can bring havoc with my magic somewhere else.

I came to the same conclusion about elites.

Furion wrote:
My expierience shows me that 1 eagle is suffice

And mine. I take two but that's because I'm not a strong enough player to avoid the mistake the second eagle helps you fix. Seredain's list only has one and he does just fine.

Furion wrote:
With the following roster I managed to win a 65 man strong tournament 2 weeks ago.
My usual standings are in the top 10% of all contestants.
I was attending ETC last year.
I scored 5th place in WFB Polish League in 2010 (1176 players that season)


I had my suspicions!

:)

It's proving quite educational! I'm only an average player but I think it's good to put points to your list and see you justifications. Mostly that results in me saying 'oh yeah, I see now' but as we've seen you are picking up one or two possibilities from the guys too.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:02 pm 
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Hey mate, nice to see a fellow ETC player and even more nice that you manage to do so well with High Elves.

In the late months of 2010 I was playing with a list that had 3 units of 14 Swordmasters, 2 rbts, 2 eagles, an Archmage with Anulian Crystal and Ring of Fury (with High Magic) and a Mage Knight Prince (radiant gem of hoeth with the spirit leech of Lore of Death) and 20 archers, 20 spearmen etc...

I was doing relatively well but was very disappointed because I felt in certain match ups helpless. Yesterday and before I read your post/army list I had thought of one that shares some aspects with your list. I would appreciate your input/opinion.

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35988


Now regarding your list my question is how do you manage to keep your mages safe and out of combat?


Cheers, Sieg. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:24 pm 
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I've seen furion play online and hes a good player. We have to play a game sometime online.

I think I'd like to see skeinsliver somewhere in there. The archer bunker does work as I've seen wood elves use it. Also I think the big archers could make use of a flag and flaming banner. Also I think talisman of loec might be a better choice then luckstone on the prince. If hes going to die (and you know when hes going to die) you can pop loec and maybe bring a character down with him.


Looking at it from the viewpoint of fighting them with my dwarfs, I'd focus all shooting on wherever your characters are. One st5 GT direct hit and some cannon shots and your mages might be in trouble. I remember sniping a dark elf lvl4 out of a block of 22 ish spears in one turn like this. I also have 27 miners and 5 miners with an anvil that might give your stationary army a bit of problems. One of your flanks defended by white lions, but the other might be open. Your list makes me want to field grungni banner to protect my machines, and likely the game will be decided on whether you can shoot down my stone thrower/cannons fast enough. I will have a screening unit so the -2 to hit for you might give me the edge.

It looks like a good army and something I'd enjoy using with high elves. I really hate playing with aggressive lists.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:38 pm 
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I think you defended your roster very well and have given me many things to think about.

I personally don't like the amount of characters you fielded particularly because they are high risk and it keeps your model count low. I find when I invest a third or more of my points in characters I become very vulnerable to templates and Dweller's.

I agree that you should have multiple casters but am very wary of investing so much in magic, since it can be fickle sometimes (despite Banner of Sorcery). I really like your magic versatility, it has answers to everything.

I also agree that elite units are great because they typically don't need magical support. However, I feel that choosing White Lions pretty much eliminates this possibility, which is not necessarily a bad thing at all, I just like to have that flexibility. In retrospect, White Lions, while equally vulnerable in combat as Swordmasters, are probably better off since they are resilient to shooting and Dwellers, which definitely outweighs a lot of things.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:20 pm 
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ETC, as with every sensible comp system, makes Dwellers far less of a threat to characters.

I'd still go for a flaming banner on the Archers. Withering is good, but it won't matter much if you face a big Unit of trolls/Grave Guard. 40 Archer shots shooting at GG doing say 30 hits and 10 wounds, 4 after armour/wards without Withering, 8 with average withering effect, would be 16 without. A GG unit that's lost 8 models is still powerful: if it's lost 16, it's doomed. Similarly with Trolls- every time they regenerate a bolt thrower hit, that hurts...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:26 pm 
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My dear friends,

Here is the promised scroll-less list ;) All feedback will be greatly appreciated!

Quote:
1 * Archmage @ 345.0 Pts
Magic Level 4; Lore of High Magic
Annulian Crystal [40.0]
Ring of Fury [40.0]
Dragonbane Gem [5.0]

1 * Prince @ 252.0 Pts
General; Great Weapon
Bow of the Seafarer [60.0]
Armour of Caledor [25.0]
Luckstone [5.0]

1 * Mage @ 165.0 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Shadow
Seerstaff of Saphery [30.0]

1 * Noble @ 169.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard
Reaver Bow [40.0]
Charmed Shield [5.0]

26 Archers w/ Musician @ 291.0 Pts
14 Archers w/ Musician @ 159.0 Pts
17 SpearElves w/ Musician @ 158.0 Pts

28 White Lions @ 500.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Lion Pelt; FCG
Banner of Sorcery [50.0]

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower @ 100.0 Pts
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower @ 100.0 Pts

7 Swordmasters w/ Musician @ 111.0 Pts

Models in Army: 103

Total Army Cost: 2400.0


Alternatives for saved points (116 points, in this roster: SM and Dragonbane Gem on Archmage)
- 3rd RBT. Problem: difficult, or even impossible, to protect.
- Making a bigger block of spearmen. Problem: bodyguards for mages become very costy.
- Shadow warriors: see discussion.
- insert your idea here!

Discussion.
Lore switch: As you have noticed, I've decided to switch lores on Archmage and Mage. This decision was made after lots of test, which crystalized a line of thought like this: the more dice you spend on your spells, the less important the caster's level is. I was actually casting Whithering with 3/4 dice and spam High Magic spells with 2 dice. Now I will do the same, but I expect my magic to be even stronger then before, since I'll receive several +4 for archamge and only one +2 for small mage. Before Lore switch the situation was opposite.

Looking forward for your feedback,
Furion

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:15 am 
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Οκ here are some first comments. :)

I would advise you try Armour of the Stars on your Prince. In the past when I used him with the bow and inside a block of infantry I always used this armour. Think about it. A nasty character charges your block, you challenge with your prince, attacking him first and as soon as he scores a single wound you teleport away, leaving him with only a +2 (wound +charge) resolution against your +5 plus whatever wounds you may scored.

Next it is your round were you can make him join another unit. Also if you are desperate you can cast magic with your shadow mage and make him switch places with your prince. So you can repeat the process once again , only this time the enemy character will have only +1 resolution (even more chances of you breaking him).

If your opponent sees through that and does not charge your banker unit, even better. :)

Now for my second suggestion:

I advice you use 7 Shadow Warriors instead of the Sword Masters. Not for their ability to scout or their shooting capabilities though. That is a tactic I use with my wood elf characters inside Glade Guard units but it cab apply easily here too.

You keep your Shadow Warriors near your banker unit. Now if worst comes to worst and the enemy is uppon thee you take your characters and make them join the Shadow Warrior unit were inside it they can march vertically 10 inches. That way you can escape quickly and with great mobility and perhaps use your Spearmen to make a final redirect to further foil the pursue of your enemy.

Finally regarding magic. I use these lores opposite (lv4 with Shadows and Lv2 with High) because I figured the High Magic spells are easier to cast so the Lv2 should be able to handle it easier. I can see your reasoning, bur it applies imo only if you really througth alot of dice on your shadow spells. Can you offer some examples of your use of this format?


Cheers, Sieg. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:55 am 
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The characters are looking almost 'normal'!

:)

It's an interesting point about the RBT. I take it you set up to deny the enemy a clear route to them? Many guys just leave them to fend for themselves but maybe this is in more straightforwardly attacking lists.

Do you think a unit of cavalry could be any use in this list?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Siegfried VII wrote:
Οκ here are some first comments. :)

I would advise you try Armour of the Stars on your Prince. In the past when I used him with the bow and inside a block of infantry I always used this armour. Think about it. A nasty character charges your block, you challenge with your prince, attacking him first and as soon as he scores a single wound you teleport away, leaving him with only a +2 (wound +charge) resolution against your +5 plus whatever wounds you may scored.

Next it is your round were you can make him join another unit. Also if you are desperate you can cast magic with your shadow mage and make him switch places with your prince. So you can repeat the process once again , only this time the enemy character will have only +1 resolution (even more chances of you breaking him).

If your opponent sees through that and does not charge your banker unit, even better. :)

Your remark, although viable, doesn't suit my playstyle with this list. Besides, the utility of this trick is very arguable: I find my unit of spearmen with lord charged rare, therefore giving him armour of Stars (which is a nice item and greatly increases survivability in this situation) for this very rare case is not a good ida I think.

Quote:
Finally regarding magic. I use these lores opposite (lv4 with Shadows and Lv2 with High) because I figured the High Magic spells are easier to cast so the Lv2 should be able to handle it easier. I can see your reasoning, bur it applies imo only if you really througth alot of dice on your shadow spells. Can you offer some examples of your use of this format?


Cheers, Sieg. :)

I typically get 9v4 dice per magic phase. My usuall spell casts are like 2 for 2d6s4 and 3 on -d3T. If target is far away, and may archers have moved I preffer to cast miasma -d3M instead of -d3T. This is the safe way, since I save 1 extra die. At this point I have used 4/5 dices which leave 5/4 dices. I usually follow it up with flames on 3, fury on 1, curse on 1. Of corse this is just theory, I quite often do some variations. I have a few guidelines though: I preffer to cast 2x spell on 3+ then to cast 1 spell with 2 dice. It's actually not a risky play, it's the safest play possible - I minimize the chance of miscast.


SpellArcher wrote:
It's an interesting point about the RBT. I take it you set up to deny the enemy a clear route to them? Many guys just leave them to fend for themselves but maybe this is in more straightforwardly attacking lists.

I try to keep them alive as long as possible. Sometimes I even use a wall of characters to defend RBT (like archmage, prince, hero) all depends on the situation. Keeping your opponent in check whit White Lions is relatively easy, and the later you engage, the better the ooutcome of the battle will be, becouse of heavy magic + shooting.

SpellArcher wrote:
Do you think a unit of cavalry could be any use in this list?

5 Dragon Princes is the same cost as 10 swordmasters. Keeping your opponent in check with cavalry is much more difficult in 8th edition (diagonal distance measurement) plus, it's actually not that efficient anymore (make way, stubborn)

Also, from a tactic point of view in light of this roster, I question the utility of those 5 dragon princes. They are not enough of a threat to efficiently slower down my enemy's approach, and investing in a unit capable of doing so is the same investment like a full block of elite infantry.

cheers
Furion

ps. Looking forward for more feedback, tournament is on tomorrow, I'd love to see your suggestions!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Furion wrote:
Keeping your opponent in check whit White Lions is relatively easy,

They're a brilliant roadblock aren't they?

Ok so DP's don't go well with your list. What about a unit of cheap Silver Helms? I guess the light threats that these work well against could be dealt with by shooting or magic anyway?

Another idea is to run a unit of Reavers to slow enemy marching down with Feigned Flight.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:42 pm 
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Furion wrote:
I typically get 9v4 dice per magic phase. My usuall spell casts are like 2 for 2d6s4 and 3 on -d3T. If target is far away, and may archers have moved I preffer to cast miasma -d3M instead of -d3T. This is the safe way, since I save 1 extra die. At this point I have used 4/5 dices which leave 5/4 dices. I usually follow it up with flames on 3, fury on 1, curse on 1. Of corse this is just theory, I quite often do some variations. I have a few guidelines though: I preffer to cast 2x spell on 3+ then to cast 1 spell with 2 dice. It's actually not a risky play, it's the safest play possible - I minimize the chance of miscast.


Hhhmm... that is a nice strategy. I have never planned ahead my magic phase before the game. You gave me a new perspective about how to manage my magic phase. Ι will try to make use of your train of thought on the field and see how it will go. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:54 pm 
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Ok, I've just finished a tournament. 34 participants, 3 battles. It went like that:

1st battle a this year's ETC dwarf player, precise roster can be found on TWF; 3x30 warriors with great weapons, 2 catapults, anvil, lord, cannon w/ burning, organ gun.

Short of the battle: quite a lot of bad luck. I managed to cast a Pit of Shades on Anvil in turn 1. Destroy scroll: success, so no Pit of Shades anymore. No big deal though. 2d6s4, 14 archers, reaver bow, 1x RBT fail to land 3 wounds on organ gun. End of turn one. In his turn one he made a charge on a roll of 11 on eagle, charged swordmasters with 30 rangers. Swordmasters kill 10 guys (they kill 7.6 via statistic) and 6 of them died (7 per statistic) break test passed, next turn I join the fight with small bows, spears, bsb. Killed and overrun close to wardmachines. Shooting is concentrated on them. BSB survives, positions himself between 2x catapult, gets hit by a cannon with rule of burning, fails his 2+ ward save and dies.

Meanwhile White Lions fail a panic check on 10, rally, get charged, fail a break test on 9 and are run down by some silly dwarfs. That equals no magic phase from turn 3 onwards.

The outcome of the battle was 3:17. Lessons learned:

- swordmasters are a very good blocker. I would love to have 9 of them, then I would actually win most combats with them.
- although I had some bad luck, I should keep my formation a little bit tighter, so I can reroll a fail LD10 panic check.
- after the game, I realised that going for steed of shadows would actually be a viable choice. I picked Pit of Shades and -d3T, but due to high casting value I actually never got chance to cast it. Going for 2d6 on warmachine, curse of arrows, flames were much more potent choices.

Anyways, game 2: Empire.
2x30 flaglants, Stank, altar, rest.
I block War Altar with swordmasters and spears, finally charging it with spears. Tank gets slowly pointed out by mass archers, combined with curse of arrow attraction. In turn one I manage to wipe out 14 handgunners with a mage; Lord killed 3, archers killed 11, reaver bow killed hero. All done with help of Whitering.

Flaglants advance. The moment I bring them down to 12-15 models I charge them with Lions, wipe them out. Eagle managed to successfuly kill a lone cannon.

outcome of the battle: 20:0. Lessons learned:

- not sure about Pit of Shades. It is a high dice commitment and relatively poor effect. I consider switching lores on my seerstaf wizard.

Game no. 3: Tomb Kings of Khemri
30 Tombguards, 40 archers, 40 warriors, 2 SSC, Necrosphinx, 3x snake knights, unit of chariots.

Lord with spearmen nullifies advancing chariots: I move to be more than 8" from them, fire seafararer, do sns, kill 1 chariot, take 7 impact hits, kill another chariot in advance, win combat in the round charged. I decide to use the number of my units and I work my way to flank skeleton warriors. Meanwhile shooting is concentrated on SSC. 1 dies from shooting. Second misfires and detonates (lucky, no big deal though: at this stage I had the option to shoot at SSC or Tomb Guards)

Necrosphinx advances. After 4 turns of coming closer he finally is in a no-escape distance, I turn all my archers and fire a voley with curse of arrow attraction. 4 wounds in. Sphinx charges Lions anyway, they hack him down, do a reform to face enemy's archers in 2x14 formation, charge for 10 inches, do combat reform, kill all 40 archers in the next turn. The way I did combat reform was to stay out of TombGuard LoS. I shoot my opponent down, I keep him in check with my WL on flank, force him to change facing. Meanwhile I shoot down the TG and I finally land a charge of Lord, Spearmen, Swordmasters on like 12 skeletons w/ Prince. Destroy of Eternities was nullified by Vaul's the turn before. Prince was boosted with 5+ ward save, challenges King, wounds him, takes no wound back, SM hack skellies, break on like -12. Course: survived due to AS / WSV.

Outcome: 20:0 with 0 points of losses taken. Lessons learned:
- Pit of Shades is of doubtful utility in this roster. In every game I had no problem with killing the target of Pit of Shades with shooting / cc. Perhaps casting some spell on lower casting value would be actually better, since this would allow me to cast more spells with archmage.
- I really enjoy playing with my lord in such configuration. Great for both offense and defense. Shooting in flank of Viper Knights is quite efficient.

My final standings was 3/34, A little below expectations, still ok though. The battles I played were very educational in terms of roster adjustment. I know that droping RBT for sake of 7 SM was a good idea. Will try to squeeze 2 extra Swordmasters. Will give more thought to spell choices when facing dwarves. Will think about Pit of Shades.

I'm looking forward for your feedback.

cheers!
Furion

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:36 am 
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Hi Furion!

I have just finished reading your justification of choices in the army list and I like the fact you precisely know what and why you included here. It is very helpful that you write the reasons that made you to pick particular character/unit, especially for less experienced players. I hope the discussion will continue. Would be great to have a detailed battle report of your games so if you find time to write one please do so. It would show much better the way you play HE which looks like yet another unique way in comparison to what people here are using.

Thanks for posting and keep it coming!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:53 am 
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Lists

High Elves wrote:
1 * Archmage @ 345.0 Pts
Magic Level 4; Lore of High Magic
Annulian Crystal [40.0]
Ring of Fury [40.0]
Dragonbane Gem [5.0]

1 * Prince @ 252.0 Pts
General; Great Weapon
Bow of the Seafarer [60.0]
Armour of Caledor [25.0]
Luckstone [5.0]

1 * Mage @ 165.0 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Shadow
Seerstaff of Saphery [30.0]

1 * Noble @ 169.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard
Reaver Bow [40.0]
Charmed Shield [5.0]

26 Archers w/ Musician @ 291.0 Pts
14 Archers w/ Musician @ 159.0 Pts
17 SpearElves w/ Musician @ 158.0 Pts

28 White Lions @ 500.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Lion Pelt; FCG
Banner of Sorcery [50.0]

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower @ 100.0 Pts
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower @ 100.0 Pts

7 Swordmasters w/ Musician @ 111.0 Pts

Models in Army: 103

Total Army Cost: 2400.0


Tomb Kings wrote:
lvl4, death, scroll

lvl4, hiero, nehek, cloak of dunes, earthing rod

Tomb Prince- GW, General, 2+ armor, Dragonbane gem

4x10 archers- musicians

2x3 chariots

30 Tomb Guard- Full Command

3 Necro Knights

2x3 carrion

2x ssc

Casket


Deployment:
Image
Spells: Archmage 1456 (High) ; Mage 02 (death) ; Nehekara Lich 0134 ; Death Lich 0235
Swordmasters stay on lefthand side becouse I was expecting my opponent to unburrow his knights in proximity of RBT. This way I had both of them defended: one with Swordmasters, 1 with Archers with BSB. I didn't notice that my opponent didn't buy this upgrade though. No big deal, the positioning wasn't that bad afterall.

I loose the 1st turn roll, we shake hands and go into battle.


TK 1:
Image
Magic: 3 dice on spirit leech on death mage. Roll of 11. Dispell on 4 dice, fail, mage dead.
Shooting: does no dmg

HE 1:
Image
Movement: WL enter house, SM and Eagle advances
Magic: 4v3 dice.... Flames of Phoenix on TG. Cast.
Shooting: 1+2 chariots die.

TK 2:
Image
Movement: Chariots charge SM, flee, redirect, eagle flees. Picture was taken a little too late, since I moved charges before taking picture, so you can see a Prince with spearmen who charged chariot.
Magic: cascet fails, spirit leech on archmage taken and no wounds, flames of phoenix dispelled.
Shooting: SSC kills 3 spearmen. Panic pass.

HE 2:
Image
Movement: Spearmen charge a chariot. Notice how Prince Makes way, to be in good position when the flank charge comes. White Lions leave house, staying out of sight from necropolis knights.
Magic: 12v7 dice. Im working on 10 archers with Hierophant. 4 dice on flame, 3 skellies die, 2x 2d6, both dispelled on 8v7 dice.
Shooting: I kill the remainder of hierophant bodyguards. Quite a shame, since if any of those 2d6 would go through, I would have killed him.
Combat: Spearmen overrun into skellies

TK 3:
Image
Movement: knights charge archers, fail, they sns. chariots move.
Magic: none dmg. cascet goes through, kills none, I dispell the remainder of spells
Shooting: few archers on hill die from SSC. panic passed.
Combat: spears kill archers and do a reform. I consider reforming to make a charge on flank of Tomb Guard or into Cascet of Souls / SSC. Since I can charge them with my White Lion's overrun, I decide to make a reform to face Cascet. Notice how I am doing safe bets: I reform not only to look at cascet, I lean forward with this manouvere and I would fail this charge only on roll of double 11.

HE 3:
Movement: Swordmasters charge chariots into flank (roll of 8) lions into carrions, spears into SSC. Eagle blocks Necropolis Knights from reaching archers, archers on right swift reform to protect RBT from carrions.
At this stage my opponent called it a game, seeing no options for this game to end in his favour.

Lessons learned: Death is not a good option. High casting, poor effect. I need to think of a better lore.


cheers, more reports in foreseeable future!
Furion

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:35 am 
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At the very end when you say archers swift reform to protect rbt from carrion, thats a sacrificial protection or you consider archers s and s and beat carrion in combat? I supposed they'd win the bsb in there right?

Some questions:
Why no archer unit with the flaming banner?
Why not going high magic with the lvl4 and shadow with the lvl2? High Magic was my first choice with the mage, you have vauls unmaking for deathstars/characters, fury of khaine for damage and flames for big units (and curse for your shooting). The lvl2 would eat enemy dice with withering every turn with all the shooting you have.


Looks good, I like the style of the army very much.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:57 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
At the very end when you say archers swift reform to protect rbt from carrion, thats a sacrificial protection or you consider archers s and s and beat carrion in combat? I supposed they'd win the bsb in there right?

Archers with BSB beat those carrions with sns and combat.
Quote:
Some questions:
Why no archer unit with the flaming banner?

Already answered before. I am quite sure that flaming attacks on my archers would make my roster significantly weaker. besides, I ave already tested this option.
Quote:
Why not going high magic with the lvl4 and shadow with the lvl2? High Magic was my first choice with the mage, you have vauls unmaking for deathstars/characters, fury of khaine for damage and flames for big units (and curse for your shooting). The lvl2 would eat enemy dice with withering every turn with all the shooting you have.

L4 has high magic.
Casting Whithering with L2 with 3 dice is a 50% success chance, with 4 dice its 84.1% success chance with 13.2% miscast chance, that makes a total of 72% of good casting rolls (ie. one cast without miscast) When it comes to tactic, I consider 70% chance a brink of utility.

I was running this mage with shadow originally, but he is not as juicy as he seems to be. A reasonable choice, not an obvious one though. Will give it more thought.

cheers
Furion

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:20 pm 
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Hi Furion!

Thanks for the report! I must admit your army looks very tiny so it is great we could see how it operates. I am also a little surprised that TK player waved white flag so early, even if the situation didn't look so good for him. I hope you will post your reports on a regular basis from now on. :)

After a quick read I also came up with a following general question. Are there any particular armies/army lists you find very difficult to win against?

Cheers!

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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Hi Furion!

Thanks for the report! I must admit your army looks very tiny so it is great we could see how it operates. I am also a little surprised that TK player waved white flag so early, even if the situation didn't look so good for him. I hope you will post your reports on a regular basis from now on. :)

The more requests, the greater the chances ;) will attend a tourney this weekend, will take camera with me.
Quote:
After a quick read I also came up with a following general question. Are there any particular armies/army lists you find very difficult to win against?

Cheers!

Ofcourse there are. Skaven en masse are a threat. I don't like facing dwarves, since this match up has a significant random factor. I haven't played that many matches against VC, so I need more tests here. Everything else is manageable though ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:38 pm 
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Nobody likes facing dwarfs ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:25 pm 
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I agree Lord Anathir...nasty dwarfs!

@Furion- Look forward to seeing how your torney goes, and some more battle reports! The most surprising thing I have found with this list is that when I first played you I had thought myself to be facing a weak list and you destroyed me!

After reading your reasoning for certain choices and how it works I tested a quite similar list and have learned another way to use the High Elves, it plays more like counter attack and it seems to work very well.

Keep up the good work ;)!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:28 am 
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Last edited by Furion on Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:01 am 
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There are only so many rats you can kill before you get tired, lessons learned, move on ^_^

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:27 pm 
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Even on my super wide work screen, your pictures are way too big. That pushes the text lines way off the screen, and the report is basically unreadable because of all the time I have to spend scrolling right and left. From past experiences, I assume others have the same problem.


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